Lame or Not?

[Pungee]

Jeez whats with all the twinkish talk?  :shock:

Where's the love?

Let's think logically for a second before this turns into a flame fest (it's been known to happen, no offense or insinuation meant to anyone who's posted thus far). Allright, yes a shield being stuffed in a backpack is a bit unlikely. But lets think about it for a second. It'd be a pain to code a location where you could strap a shield to a backpack so the staff probably left it so you could put it, as well as a number of other large items, into a backpack where you'd normall have it strapped to the backpack. So if you stuff a shield in your backpack it could be assumed that you actually have it ON your backpack.

For the realistic purposes of stealing, nobody is going to try and lift a shield off someone. Lets face it, thats a big thing and people (even if the wearer didn't feel it lifted) are going to notice some skinny elf untying a shield from some bulky drunken mercs backpack. Like was mentioned earlier, shields are big and obvious, so are other weapons you'd normally have strapped to the backpack if they weren't sheathed at your belt. Stealing something off of someones back would be so obvious that nobody would even attempt it, so in my view it's perfectly acceptable to keep objects IN the backpack to avoid them getting stolen by someone who's being a bit codehappy or simply forgetful.  

[Stroker]

Has it suddenly become wrong or 'twinkish' putting swords and such in a backpack? What if you had the blade of the sword wrapped in something? That could prevent damage to the backpack .... what about loner merchants who make weapons and have to carry them, they can put them in packs and the like - Sure a shield is a bit too unwieldy to be placed in a backpack, but I see nothing wrong with a sword, as long as it is properly 'rpied' out. That being said ..... have a pleasant day.

[creeper386]

I think the problem comes... Is when you are putting it in there JUST to prevent stealing, and when you get into a fight you pull it out nearly as quick as if you had it one your belt. If every time I went into a bar and put all my weapons and anything stealable into a closable pouch, I'd consider it abit twinkish. As for swords and such in quivers... I consider that EXTREMELY twinkish. I think quivers hold WAY too much over all... As I've seen people pull out training weapons, full sized axes and even more all from the same quiver... It's pretty lame. I at most keep a skinning knife which is RPed out being tucked under the quiver belt(When worn at waist... At least with a past character) and a bow, which is strapped to the belt/quiver(But I also emoted unstrapping and restringing the bow, EVERYTIME I used it...). I really hate it when I see everything and the local well pulled out of a quiver.

Anyways... I can see it common people putting rings and bracelets in closable containers they can keep a watch on(Pouches on belts anyone?) But not always backpacks... And always sticking weapons in backpacks/quivers and what not IS alittle twinkish... Even if you tie a weapon down it's going to be easy to get off, SHRUG. Everyonce in awhile maybe, but as long as YOUR character isn't expecting easy access... but when you do it all the time, especially with large items your character would want access too easiely, it's alittle odd... SHRUG.

Creeper

[crymerci]

Ok, firstly, in response to stealing blades in bars...I do think that crowds would be a good cover, but not necessarily bars. My reasoning is that in bars people are at their leisure, sitting down, they can look all around, and while your victim might not see you, it's likely that a witness would.  The kind of crowd that I would consider a better cover is the crowds in the Allanak bazaar and commoner's quarter, or in Tuluk, the Red Sun Commons, as well as the merchant quarter and the other marketplace. Moving crowds are intent on where they're going and not running into anyone, shopping crowds have many other distractions as well.  But generally people aren't minding other people's business, unlike in bars.  I'm not saying a bar would be a bad place, I just don't think it's as great as has been put forth here.

Oh, and as far as being drunk making you a better victim...sometimes, yes.  But at the same time, knowing your vulnerability can make you paranoid and thus a worse victim.

Now, for an idea.  What about a new skill, or an extension of the steal skill, that when a pickpocket becomes expert, they can actually open bags other people are wearing? Some bags would be easier to slip open than others, and it would be very risky...not many would have the skill to both open and stick their hand in without getting caught.

[Pungee]

I don't think I'd mind that terribly. But I think in order to branch it you'd need to have decent sneak too as a lot of untying something large in public has to do with being stealthy about it. Maybe RP a few passes by the target or some such.

[Angela Christine]

Obviously a distracted person should be easier to rob than an alert person.  Therefore, I propose that baby objects make you a soft target, because babies are pretty damn distracting.  

There used to be a PC with 7 (virtual) children.  What the hell?  At that point there are so many little hands pulling at you that one more isn't going to make a difference.  Even a guard is going to be over-whelmed by all the shrieking, babbling little people.  (Until one day he has a flashback to the time his whole unit was wiped out by halflings and goes postal).

AC

[spawnloser]

Okay, I love the idea of the branchable skill to open closed containers.  No, seriously, I LOVE this idea.  I don't think your sneak should be that high as steal is already being sneak and subtle while lifting the item.

I also agree with the fact that putting things in closable containers being twinkish being motivation based.  If you put everything in a closable container (especially if it should be too large to fit in the container in the first place as mentioned) to avoid theft because you know the code will keep your stuff safe, that's twinkish.

[X-D]

I don't have a problem with branching getting into closed containers.
I do on the other hand have a real problem with the theft of large/bulky weapons/items in a bar...or anywhere for that matter. Not only is a person bound to notice his belt getting 20-40 pounds lighter but the average sword is around 3-4 feet long, yet somehow in a room full of people you manage to get it off the belt, then out from under the victems cloak then under your cloak (I know it is in inventory but I assume that is under the cloak else it would be in plain sight) All of this is done without the weapon snagging clothing, knocking armor or furniture or ever being brought out in the open. Silly. Then if you look at a lot of the cloaks, they are HEAVY, leather and canvas and such, the idea that something that size and -shape- could be removed from a not drunk awake person, specialy if they are the type that makes a living with a weapon is silly to an extreme.

But to tell you the truth, what I'd like to see is a revision to the crim code, a new flag, call it thief flag if you will, Let me explain.

This flag would, if the thief is good and smart, do nothing, the soldiers and templars would not instantly come after him/her or anything, It would only apply to the person who the thief stole from or attempted to steal from and even they would not be able to 'see' it in any way, but if they suspected someone and they did want to attempt to hit/kill/subdue that person then they would be allowed without getting a crim flag of thier own.

Now, if the victem was wrong in the suspect and they acted on it then they would get a normal crim flag. The thief flag would also not last very long, say no more then 10 minutes real time. And it would not extend to anybody except the victem or possibly the militia/templars So, if the victoms friends tried to help, they would be crim flagged as normal.

That or install the brawl code in all the taverns:)

I think it would make life quite interesting myself.

[creeper386]

If swords and over all any weapon is 20-40 pounds... Zalanthans have to be ALOT stronger then Earth humans... And even then if they are... That weight would be relevant. A single handed sword waying over five pounds on Earth is nearly unheard off I do beleive... 2-4 pounds is quite common. Now, I know obsidian might be heavier... But then Zalanthans would have to be stronger, as stated before it's make it relevant and over all it'd only be like missing a few pounds off your belt.

Also, most belts I would think that carry weapons are made to carry weapons. Like sheathing and such. Why does this matter? They are made to distribute weight so as not to be a hindrance, pull you off-balance and such. Although you might notice the difference of a weapon missing when moving around and not having a sword(Though more from the lack of weapon movement then weight) you are far likely not to notice it missing if still. Now if you have a bone weapon, it's probably lighter... Bone would have to be incredibly dense to have any decent weight to it...

Now... if it was a massively large, solid stone hammer that was stolen, it'd be alittle different... But it's already taken care of code wise. Heavy things are MUCH harder to lift. Specially if your a weak skinny.


Creeper

[X-D]

As to weight in game, if you have a char in nak spend the sid to have some weapons weighed, a stone is what about 2.5 pounds? I've weighed helms at 16+ stone, swords hammers and maces from 4-28 stone.

Next, it has been brought up before on this GDB and the old on how say a bone bastard sword would have to be made in order to be worth anything, and it would be much more massive then a steel weapon of the same -style- stone...chuckle, stone would be even moreso.


Weight on belt, to a warrior or a ranger that weapon is his livelyhood, damm straight he is going to notice, if it goes away, he could starve or something, less likly to notice many other things, but not the tools of his trade.

And Do this Creeper, take a reproduction sword of at least katana length, with a sheath, attach the sheath to your belt go into your kitchen, set up a bunch of chairs and such then sit at the table with people around you, then have somebody else with a sheath on thier belt, empty, have them draw your weapon and then sheath it in thier own sheath, See how long it takes and how many things get hit.

This will give a reasonable idea on what a thief would have to go through in order to steal anything bigger then a long knife.

I have a lot of experiance wearing swords and such IRL, they get in the way no matter what you do and you have to be aware of your weapon at all times else you will be tripping people, scarring furnitor, smacking people around, breaking the weapon by sitting on it or something, then there is somebody else tripping over it knocking the hilt into your kidneys (painful) bumping your elbow causing you to (GASP) Spill some mead and many other things.

I have nothing against pickpockets in game and them needing to make a living, And like I said, I have no problems with allowing them to branch a skill say like cutpurse, A style used in earth history, one style is to cut the strings of a pouch/purse in a crowded area letting it fall quietly into the waiting hand, to be palmed another would cut the pouch/purse/pack itself allowing items to fall or be easily taken and palmed.

But Swords, maces, shields, bows, quivers that is just silly and all of these I have seen stolen in game from peoples belts and inventories (which is extremly silly to me because in inventory you are activly holding something else why would agility matter on number of items).

I say give the thieves some new useful and interesting yet limited skills...

The limit maybe not being if it can be taken but more on if it can be taken without everybody noticing. Let the cutpurse cut the backpack straps and take the hole backpack, but let everybody see it so he has to make a run for it, and he knows he is going to have to from the start (kinda like a purse snatcher)

Ok, I'm starting to ramble I think,

X-D, posting after 3 am.

[creeper386]

First... Zalanthans must be really buff... And all those 50+ hammers must be pretty relative to real earth hammers of the same weight.

And Do this Creeper, take a reproduction sword of at least katana length, with a sheath, attach the sheath to your belt go into your kitchen, set up a bunch of chairs and such then sit at the table with people around you, then have somebody else with a sheath on thier belt, empty, have them draw your weapon and then sheath it in thier own sheath, See how long it takes and how many things get hit.

Now it's understandable a large weapon won't be stolen much of the time. And from what I've seen it takes a VERY good thief code wise to steal a large weapon. The code handles that.

As for the rest... I have NOT YET to see a belt that has acctually sheaths... Just loops or hooks to hang weapons. Although I've seen MANY people RP out there are sheathes I've yet to see them in item descriptions... Maybe I just am blind... But I don't think a full sheath would be too common. Specially in the cities where there isn't going to be that much room to pull out a weapon.

Creeper

[X-D]

Well, on the sheathing, though the belt says loops, since the messages and commands are sheath, not hang for weapons, assume a virtual sheath, other items, even some weapon items have to be hung from the belt using the wear on command. On hammers and axes and maces. looking at the descs of most of them I'm going to say that they are too light most times if you get them weighed. And real earth warhammers were light weapons(4-12lbs) but hell, 12lbs is a bowling ball, attach one to your belt and see if you notice it getting lifted, except for the maul, total weight normaly over 40lbs.
But what do you expect from an iron bound treetrunk attached to a 6-8' tree limb:)

I know magician's and thieves in real life who can take things from me in manners that are quite amazing, but none of them can take a 8lbs 4' blade from me without me knowing, nobody can.

The code allows things to be stolen that are simply silly, and all I can say is think about it then if that is not enough, TRY it, try it, try it in real life.

True, code wise the bigger the item the more diffacult it is to take, but not impossible, even you creeper admit that somebody stealing a halberd is silly, but it can be done(codewise).


Take a 10lbs bowling ball, stick it in a nylon stocking and attach it to your person any way you want and see if somebody can lift it without you knowing, Or even better have somebody else do it and see if you can take it without them or the people around knowing.

I think there needs to be a definite weight limit on things stolen from an awake not drunk person.

[creeper386]

Well, I've never seen alot of really large weapons being stolen...Nor really alot of swords or anything, but even then, if the only way a thief is going to live is to steal that stone bastard sword, he's probably going to try and and if all else fails he might succeed through desperation. Anything is truly stealable.

I also, still beleive sheath components aren't that common. But even you you have a sheath... Sheaths can be cut and taken along with or just cut enough to take the sword right out the back/front. Over all if you want a pick pocket or any thief to play completely perfectly, you should expect everyone else to play perfectly all the time as well. See people open a container, pull out 'sid, but something, put the 'sid back in the container and then quickly use the item so it can't be stolen... SURE that might mean your characters being watchful over his things and limiting the chances for something to steal... But when everyone does this sort of things ALL the time?

Personally, I tend not to use alot of different containers unless I REALLY need them. Sometimes forgetting and leaving them open is a good thing. And you think it's twinky for someone to get away with a sword with noone noticing but with all the eyes about you don't think someones going to notice a cut purse or someone pulling a fancy obsidian knife inset with jewels out of their backpack? Lots of people are going to see things... By not getting caught codewise, they people that matter aren't the ones that see you. You can steal just about anything over all....

Still don't think the code allows anything unrealistic, it just accounts for more then just skill.


Creeper

[X-D]

Then our opinions differ on that, I think the code allows very unrealistic things to be stolen, but my basis is on real life research and experiance, the cutpurse BTW is a master of something you may have heard of in entertainment called slight of hand, in mud the closest thing is palm, A favored cutpurse tool was a razor like device shaped somewhat like a half moon where the curved edge was the sharp edge, this was held between the fingers with the sharp edge on the palm side, not readily visible and all it took to slice pursestrings or the pouch itself was a pat or a casual passing of the hand, nothing that actually -looked- like cutting and no cutting item was seen, then the coins/items would be -palmed- as it would be.

A pickpocket worked on quantity not quality, a burgler works on quality, A pickpocket, many small items of middle value, a burgler takes the big stuff. Why? because a pickpocket works crowds were small things go un-noticed but large ones are easily noticed, a burgler works when nobody is around (hopefully) and needs to make the score count.


This item and others would easily apply to arm, specialy considering the obsidian, and flint crafting skills of the people.

Over all if you want a pick pocket or any thief to play completely perfectly, you should expect everyone else to play perfectly all the time as well.

A couple points on that, One, myself, like AC, once my char can afford in the least bit to have things stolen, he starts keeping things in areas where they can be, of course the better stuff is harder to get, 10-40 coins in inventory, a dagger or something, better stuff in harder  (but not impossible) areas. I realize the pickpocket has to live too:)

Though that is OOC, if the items were stolen and he had a suspect, you can bet that suspect (right or wrong) is going to have some problems on his hands.

See people open a container, pull out 'sid, but something, put the 'sid back in the container and then quickly use the item so it can't be stolen... SURE that might mean your characters being watchful over his things and limiting the chances for something to steal... But when everyone does this sort of things ALL the time?

Of course, and that is why, along with a definite size limit on what a pickpocket can take from an awake person they should also be able to branch the cutpurse type skills and maybe an advanced form of palm, called maybe sleight of hand

And you think it's twinky for someone to get away with a sword with noone noticing but with all the eyes about you don't think someones going to notice a cut purse or someone pulling a fancy obsidian knife inset with jewels out of their backpack

No, there is far less of a chance actually, the item would be palmed before even leaving the backpack, and who says you had to reach in? you stand near the person, reach your right arm under your left like you are crossing them, slice backpack with right hand, blocking veiw with left and body, seeming like just standing near the person in the crowded tavern, palm some objects and drop in cloak pocket, if noticed by victem, an elf would enjoy the rp, Oh, hey, roundear, maybe you should buy another pack, this one has holes and you are littering you worthless junk all over the room.


And I'm not saying that large items should be unstealable persay, but instead above a certain size it should always be noticed (if the person is able to notice) This would allow for two types in the same class, the actuall pickpocket, skilled and slick of tongue skilled in sleight of hand, and the pursesnatching grab and run type...hell, and even a third, the true thug, being able to simplygrab something then bluff or threaton, or subdue and demand then take if the item is not given freely.

Hell, I'd play a pickpocket then.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I think there needs to be a definite weight limit on things stolen from an awake not drunk person.

There is.  Have you ever played a pickpocket?  If you ever steal something heavy, such as a huge bastard sword, you will see "That is way too heavy to steal, they would surely notice."

I usually just give blind faith to the code in this regard.  When you peek at something, you can't value it, you can't even look at its full description.  So I have no way of knowing exactly how concievable it would be to steal something until I've already stolen it.

[Dracul]

I saw someone play correctly stealing something big...just because you can't get away with it unoticed doesn't mean you can't do it...how do you think purse thievse thrives?

grab and run

[X-D]

Yes, I have, but I never tried to steal bastard sword or hoplite, but the longswords and maces, axes, they (eventually) can be taken, and without anybody seeing it.

That is what I have a problem with, items that you cannot even begin to palm, even with two half-giant palms (snicker) being taken without anybody seeing.

X-D wrote:
I think there needs to be a definite weight limit on things stolen from an awake not drunk person.

I really meant there, a weight limit on things being stolen -un-noticed-

I saw someone play correctly stealing something big...just because you can't get away with it unoticed doesn't mean you can't do it...how do you think purse thievse thrives?

grab and run

Did you read my other posts Dracul? I said just that, but why count on the rare chance that somebody -may- play it out?

Instead of the current either you get it (without somebody seeing) or you don't get it at all, how about adding to that.

steal *item* could have more options.
and what they are would depend on your skill and the size/weight of the item (this is not including the cutpurse skill which I think I'm going to submit as a branched skill)  #1 you fail miserably, so bad that you actually miss and fall over grabbing at the intended victem and knocking him/her over maybe, everybody would see it, and it would be up to you to cover with RP rather then getting help from the code, or maybe just run:)
#2 you get the item but are seen taking it (wee better be a quick thinker or fleet of foot)

#3 you get the item but bump the victem (Oh, sorry about that, them gaj roaches are slippery when ya step on them)

#4 you get the item perfectly

#5 You miss but is not noticed.

#6 you bump the victem and don't get the item (see #3)

#7 a current one, you bump him but cover, he feels something but it is the someone type message, you get nothing.

#8 like #7 but you get the item

And maybe throw in the chance to get an item other then the one you intended on the partial fails.

But I would still have items say 4 stone to 8 stone(10-20lbs) always be noticed by the victem, but the message does not have to be a dead giveaway, and items from 9 stone and up be straight up grabs noticed by anyone about.

AND make it possible to grab that bastard sword and run with it. Course that type of thing would need at least some modifiers from the victem's side to give the chance of noticing in time or something.

Would certainly make pickpockets quite interesting I think:)

[Angela Christine]

And real earth warhammers were light weapons(4-12lbs) but hell, 12lbs is a bowling ball, attach one to your belt and see if you notice it getting lifted, except for the maul, total weight normaly over 40lbs.
. . .
The code allows things to be stolen that are simply silly, and all I can say is think about it then if that is not enough, TRY it, try it, try it in real life.

I think you have to consider more than the absolute weight of the item, and also take into accout how much the person is carrying in total.  An average person in summer clothes is usually wearing less than 10 pounds of clothes, so that 12 pound bowling ball is a major drag.  If you steel the ball you are stealing half their stuff, by weight.  Someone lifting 50% of your load is very noticable.

Many Zalananthians, especially the PCs, are wearing waaay more than 10 pounds (4 stone) worth of crap.  Just an ordinary pair of mekillot leather pants is 10 stone (about 30 pounds) and mek leather isn't the heaviest armor by far.  Most PCs quickly trade in their 40 stone (100 pound) capacity newbie pack for one that holds 50, 60 or more, it may not be full all the time but it's probably full some of the time.  The average PC is probably toting around 100-300+ pounds of gear if you include his armor and containers.  (A half-giant or mul may be carrying even more, with obsidian breastplates, tents, casks of water and who knows what else -- but half-giants and muls usually have even heavier weapons on their belts, some of their crap is so heavy most thieves would have trouble carrying it much less stealing it.)  If you have 200 pounds of crap tied to you, then 10 pounds of it being lifted is a relatively small weight change, and might be missed.  

I'm not saying there shouldn't be limits, just that there are plenty of factors to consider.  And I still find pickpockets that steal swords to be less annoying than burglars that steal furnature.  

AC