Casual Game Play

[staggerlee]

I think that it would be incredibly positive for Armageddon to embrace players with lower playtimes. A lot of people find that as an adult they can't sustain the kind of play that Armageddon requires for very long. I say "as an adult" because finding the time to MUD wasn't an issue for me in highschool or my first couple years of university.

I absolutely agree with the analysis Gimf gave on the potential benefits of low playtime players. It'll build a more diverse, stable community, and you'll win over a lot of people that might have much to contribute but can't handle the current demands of the game.

Now the response is always: "But my cousin's brother's friend plays an hour a week and loves it!" To which I say: Good for him! But he's not normal!  The second response tends to be, "But with a great leader, clans can..." To which I say the same. That isn't what I'd call a normative experience. The game should be accessible to players with much more limited time than it currently offers, as a group, not only the exceptional ones.

I don't think I really need to touch the "... but hardcores don't do all this work so that casuals can come muck around, we've earned this!" argument. This isn't WoW.

I like the idea of being able to start a character off with higher skills, provided they meet certain requirements such as age.

I would also like to see more low-level "sponsored" roles offered by staff. Not sponsored in the current Armageddon sense of the word--leaders that get staff support--but postings more like:

Wanted: Senior Servant, House Oash
Location: Allanak
Minimum Karma Requirement: None.
You are a lifelong servant of Allanak's illustrious and mysterious House Oash, trained in how to better serve the House's nobility for as long as you can remember. The role of 'servant' can be anything from aide to cook to guard. Email allanaki_nobles@armageddon.org with a brief outline of your character concept. Depending on background and guild, your character may be given a slight skill boost and will be granted one set of Oashi livery armour or a House uniform.

Wanted: Human Tribal Elders
Location: Varies.
Minimum Karma Requirement: 2.
You are a venerable and long-lived member of one of Zalanthas' human tribes, either the Arabet, Al'Seik or Jul Tavan. Unlike many of your blood, you have retained both the skill and presence of mind to persevere--perhaps even flourish--despite the harshness of nomadic life. You are at least thirty-five years old and you may choose from any profession, though please keep your chosen tribe's documentation in mind. Mages considered as per tribal docs. Depending on your age and guild, you will be given moderate boosts to certain skills as well as a selection of tribal gear.

Two other RPI games that I've tinkered around with use a system kind of like this, and personally, I really like it. It allows casual players to app right into a role in a clan without necessarily having to take on leadership, kind of like how the Tan Muark is currently handled rather than a call for a noble or templar.

I think that something like this would be absolutely excellent. It's not only for "casual" players though, so allow me to suggest one more category on the advert:

Recommended Playtime: Low (Player should attempt to log in once or twice a week, for as long as they feel appropriate.)
Recommended Playtime: High (This role is not recommended for players with significant others.)

[Riev]

I partially agree with what Cowboy said. Coded skill increases because you can "only play an hour or two a day" is kinda ridiculous. When I started my current character, I played ALL the time because I was depressed and didn't have a job. Since those changed, I play, mostly, 3 hours a night unless someone sucks up my time.

Am I advancing as quickly as I did before? No. But I am still considered very active, and do get a lot accomplished.



That said, the people that play maybe 4 hours a week, cannot realistically hope to be some Black Robe Templar due to playtime and skills. There has to be an understanding that low playtime characters, while most that I know add more to the gameworld than I do, cannot be counted on for anything and might not make it into plots.

I'd like to hear more from the people that cannot play often, and what is specific about their problems with the game. What I've heard, I've liked, but I think a lot of people with consistent, agreeable playtimes have taken over speculation on this thread.

[Marauder Moe]

My random opinionss on the matter (I haven't read the whole thread, though).

I don't like (automatic) starting skill increases for karma players.

I do like the idea of having more non-leadership, non-time-intensive roles offered by the staff.

I don't like unrestricted auto-recruitment for any clan.

I'm less averse to karma-restricted auto-recruitment for some clans... but on the other hand, shouldn't karma players know that if you can't find a PC leader during your regular playing hours, you probably shouldn't be joining that clan anyway?

I like the idea of having enough coded jobs that a character can subsist off them, even danger-free coded jobs.

I like the idea of restricting those jobs so that a character can only subsist off them and not get rich, but make it play-time based, not RL time based.


Really, though, I think there are already plenty of tools in place to enjoy Armageddon casually.  Just ditch the idea that you have to compete with hardcore players in any way.

[Gimfalisette]

I do not like the idea of increased stats and/or skills for casual players.  Way too easy to twink such a thing. "Oh, my life just changed and now I have 10 hours a day to play"!?!?!

Coded skill increases because you can "only play an hour or two a day" is kinda ridiculous. <snip> That said, the people that play maybe 4 hours a week, cannot realistically hope to be some Black Robe Templar due to playtime and skills. There has to be an understanding that low playtime characters, while most that I know add more to the gameworld than I do, cannot be counted on for anything and might not make it into plots.

I'd like to hear more from the people that cannot play often, and what is specific about their problems with the game. What I've heard, I've liked, but I think a lot of people with consistent, agreeable playtimes have taken over speculation on this thread.

I'm not sure where y'all are getting this idea that the system changes we are proposing in order to alleviate the issues faced by casual players would not also be available to players with more time to spare.

Nor do I know where this idea that casual players think they should be playing Black Robes is coming from. WTH? Try re-reading the basic message, which is, "I'd like to be able to play one hour a day and still have fun."

There are already a lot of us casual players (low available playtime) posting on this thread--me, staggerlee, jhunter, LoD. Go read the threads I linked, there is yet more discussion from other low-playtime players who find particular aspects of the game frustrating.

I find the attitude of some of the younger, higher-playtime players that "casual players should go find another game because I am afraid of change and prefer to keep my high-playtime advantages" to be disheartening. I just don't understand why growing the playerbase is that threatening.

Reality check: We still have fewer players per week than we did 3 years ago, right before "The Announcement." Hurrah for a smaller game? Don't think I'll be joining in that cheer.

[Cutthroat]

We stole the Death E-mail Idea from SoI and I think Fathi's roles with few responsibilities are another thing worth stealing from them too.

I also think a player guide about types of casual roles that a person could try would be an interesting thing to read (or perhaps write). I'd imagine roles like a prostitute, a beggar, a dungsweeper or a stablehand could work -very- well under the restraint of an hour a day (so long as other PCs support that and don't go all "omg no weapons, must be magicker" on them, and even allow them into clans in some cases). However, if the issue is accomplishment... you can't really "accomplish" much with any of those roles. You could, however, create fun for yourself and others, which is an accomplishment in itself.

[Thunkkin]

I'm not sure where y'all are getting this idea that the system changes we are proposing in order to alleviate the issues faced by casual players would not also be available to players with more time to spare.

Nor do I know where this idea that casual players think they should be playing Black Robes is coming from. WTH? Try re-reading the basic message, which is, "I'd like to be able to play one hour a day and still have fun."

You're just covering up the proposal for Imm "Death Panels" that will kill or store players who play more than 10 hours per week.  Don't lie.

I like most of these suggestions.  I'm at a point in life where my play times fluctuate from "lots" to "none at all."  Some months, I'm traveling and living alone - which means I have lots of time in my evenings for play.  Other months, I'm at home with my wife, have errands, meetings, etc., etc., ... and thus, no time to play.  My life is going to increasingly switch toward "no time to play" in the next few years.  The idea of still being able to play a meaningful role beyond "lone grebber" is appealing to me.  But if the time comes that that's pretty much my only option, abandoning Arm for my career/family won't require even the smallest nanosecond of thought.

[Dakurus]

Really, though, I think there are already plenty of tools in place to enjoy Armageddon casually.  Just ditch the idea that you have to compete with hardcore players in any way.

This is a big one. I think it's the most significant hurdle for most folks, because most folks that have or are becoming "casual" players are ones who were intense/involved/heavy players in the past. It's really a very large mindset/behavioral change to move to a non-competing casual player from what you've known and liked. I think ideas and discussions as to how to make the road shorter and less bumpy are good, but it's really a pretty significant distinction (lots of time vs little time) that really, regardless of code and other changes, absolutely requires a behavioral/expectation/mindset change. Most folks just can't quite get there.

[staggerlee]

Really, though, I think there are already plenty of tools in place to enjoy Armageddon casually.  Just ditch the idea that you have to compete with hardcore players in any way.

This is a big one. I think it's the most significant hurdle for most folks, because most folks that have or are becoming "casual" players are ones who were intense/involved/heavy players in the past. It's really a very large mindset/behavioral change to move to a non-competing casual player from what you've known and liked. I think ideas and discussions as to how to make the road shorter and less bumpy are good, but it's really a pretty significant distinction (lots of time vs little time) that really, regardless of code and other changes, absolutely requires a behavioral/expectation/mindset change. Most folks just can't quite get there.

I'm not sure that describing Arm as a competitive arena is a very good idea.
I'm not saying you're wrong that people need to consider their own perspective at all, but a lot of the naysayers seem to be saying "But it's not competitive or fair to the hardworking people that can raise skills all day long!" 

I always sorta thought Arm was supposed to be about roleplaying, storytelling and interaction.

[Dakurus]

Competition takes many forms, not just skills. It involves being current, moving, shaking, hiring, managing, politics, territorial concerns and so many other things.

When someone says Conflict they don't always mean coded combat, the same can be said with competition.

[Gimfalisette]

It's really a very large mindset/behavioral change to move to a non-competing casual player from what you've known and liked.

This is not about competition. Drop the "competition." I am not a competitive player; I am a cooperative player. And I'd appreciate being listened to for my perspective, rather than being told what it is.

I just want to be able to log in for an hour and have some fun. It's pretty simple.

[Dakurus]

Pick apart the words, the point is the same. Major variation of time spent will mean major variation of results. It can affect cooperation in much the same as competition.

One can argue all day about how competitive, cooperative, or any other word can be best used to describe characters or players play, when it's likely it's all of them to some degree. That's really not relevant.

I just want to be able to log in for an hour and have some fun. It's pretty simple.

Please do so.

[jhunter]

The idea of still being able to play a meaningful role beyond "lone grebber" is appealing to me.  But if the time comes that that's pretty much my only option, abandoning Arm for my career/family won't require even the smallest nanosecond of thought.

Exactly. I love the game, I have many great stories of things that have happened in the past when I could play enough to both get a pc up "codedly" and "socially". When you have less time to play, "codedly" takes so much time up that it becomes a choice between one or the other and it kills the enjoyment of the game. Yes, the game is about roleplay, but it is a mud and there are coded aspects to it that need to be taken into consideration also. It really sucks that if your playtimes get cut way down by life, you only get to interact with others by having your pc remain perma-newb. It really sucks that if your playtimes get cut way down by life, you only get to become a more skillful character by sacrificing your time to rp. Only one or the other isn't fun, it's a combination of the two that makes it fun. (at least for me).
The idea of (however this is accomplished) being able to start a pc that isn't codedly green, that can do things somewhat skillfully out of the gates so that I can concentrate on the social aspect of the game and get involved in plots and activities during the time I'm logged in, excites me. Because when the choice is left as stated above, I just don't bother to log in because I know the situation will suck and it breaks my heart.

[staggerlee]

Pick apart the words, the point is the same. Major variation of time spent will mean major variation of results. It can affect cooperation in much the same as competition.

One can argue all day about how competitive, cooperative, or any other word can be best used to describe characters or players play, when it's likely it's all of them to some degree. That's really not relevant.

I just want to be able to log in for an hour and have some fun. It's pretty simple.

Please do so.

I think that I largely covered this response in my earlier post. Nobody is saying that it's impossible to enjoy the game with limited play time, just that it's very difficult and that more could be done to support those with a limited number of hours a day to play. "Stop whining and go have fun," is all well and good, but sort of over-simplifying and blowing off the issue.

The idea of still being able to play a meaningful role beyond "lone grebber" is appealing to me.  But if the time comes that that's pretty much my only option, abandoning Arm for my career/family won't require even the smallest nanosecond of thought.

Exactly. I love the game, I have many great stories of things that have happened in the past when I could play enough to both get a pc up "codedly" and "socially". When you have less time to play, "codedly" takes so much time up that it becomes a choice between one or the other and it kills the enjoyment of the game. Yes, the game is about roleplay, but it is a mud and there are coded aspects to it that need to be taken into consideration also. It really sucks that if your playtimes get cut way down by life, you only get to interact with others by having your pc remain perma-newb. It really sucks that if your playtimes get cut way down by life, you only get to become a more skillful character by sacrificing your time to rp. Only one or the other isn't fun, it's a combination of the two that makes it fun. (at least for me).
The idea of (however this is accomplished) being able to start a pc that isn't codedly green, that can do things somewhat skillfully out of the gates so that I can concentrate on the social aspect of the game and get involved in plots and activities during the time I'm logged in, excites me. Because when the choice is left as stated above, I just don't bother to log in because I know the situation will suck and it breaks my heart.

Yep. Yep. Yep. And again, for posterity: there's no reason that we shouldn't encourage people like this to play Arm. I realize that most staff and players on this board don't experience this issue to a very large extent, or they wouldn't be who they are and where they are... but that doesn't mean it's not an issue.
Nothing needs to be lost from the current incarnation of the game for it to expand its player base. It's an opportunity for growth, both in quality and in playerbase.

[Gimfalisette]

I just want to be able to log in for an hour and have some fun. It's pretty simple.

Please do so.

Thanks, this helps!

[burble]

My 2 cents.
I enjoyed sitting and watching a performance that took 1 - 1 1/2 hour RL. Is that a luxury that only a relatively advanced character can enjoy? I know some of my prior unsuccessful characters were a half skin away from dying of thirst many times so that was not an option for them. They never could afford a mount. If I only had 1 hour to play would I have to choose between scrounging for survival or fun? Grebbing is time consuming, difficult, dangerous and fun in a different sort of way.

Here is a proposal: create a new class for players - with easy low level sid making ability but few advanced skills to work on (Generic City Dweller?). Then you won't have to spend a lot of time on water and food, can buy some nice/unique items (the silky things that say you are not a newbie, maybe even afford an apartment) and spend most of your time interacting with others. For a bone you can give one or two advanced branchy things if you want.

It doesn't take care of the communication problem - how to find people to RP with when you have limited time - but at least survival is not a hurdle anymore.

[staggerlee]

I would imagine that steeper diminishing returns would help close the skill gap somewhat. It would make the game more "competitive" for low play time players, reduce the demands of the grind, and... I don't see any disadvantages.

[spawnloser]

Personally, I think this is a mindset issue.

20% boost to all your starting skills?  Um... that's already a bit much I think.  50% is ridiculous.  I'm sorry, this isn't because I want to screw people with low playtimes.  At an average, I probably only play just a few hours per day, myself.  There are plenty of ways for your character to make a living without having to join a clan and then you just seek out people that are around, while your character isn't working, to socialize with.  You don't need to get wrapped up into the mega-plots and the social scheming and all that.

[Dakurus]

I think that I largely covered this response in my earlier post. Nobody is saying that it's impossible to enjoy the game with limited play time, just that it's very difficult and that more could be done to support those with a limited number of hours a day to play. "Stop whining and go have fun," is all well and good, but sort of over-simplifying and blowing off the issue.
[

I'm not blowing it off, nor am I over simplifying. I read every post in this thread and I believe some of them are helpful in smoothing the road. I don't agree with some, at least to the degree they were suggested. I am focusing on the most significant issue which is, the time. Zoltan had a very good point buried in his post. Coded additions in general, although some suggested might help, don't replace the ability to feel and be "connected" that time played gets you. One will never have the opportunity to develop relationships and experience things to the extent one would with more time spent.

Let me reiterate part of a line from LoD's original post and premise:
"lamenting the fact that the achieving success and having fun, admittedly by their personal definitions of those terms, cannot realistically accomplished in current design of Armageddon"

It's about personal definitions. How each person has fun, about how each person succeeds.
I see Gimf has already replied to my reply, to her reply, about logging in for 1 hour and having fun.
I honestly feel helpless to help her. If she can't do it because the game just isn't fun for her, it's part the game's fault and part her definition of fun's fault.
We certainly can consider tweaks and additions, but we cannot cater this game to every individual definition. Even if/when we add tweaks, it will be unlikely to meet specific individuals definitions, and it will require each person to evaluate and decide can they change their definitions by however much to meet their level of success and fun.

We add to the game, and hopefully most of these are enhancements. Hopefully most of these changes are positive and add to the experience. The game has few specific requirements beyond being IC, the ability to connect, and following what rules are there about play or expectations for certain roles. All other requirements are in each persons head, driven by experience, expectation, peer pressure, and their personal evaluation of the results.
That's why each person that finds the mud, interacts with it, and then makes a decision to be a customer or not. It either satisfies their personal tastes or it doesn't. The fact that you the reader are reading this, usually means it did.

I guess my more straightfoward and realistic belief is that, it's more likely for the individual to meet the behemoth, then the behemoth to meet each individual. If you can have fun now with one hour play times, even though certain things are tough, annoying, or not to your expectation, then after some enhancements your fun might be marginally better. If you can't, I doubt you'll be able to with those enhancements.

[jhunter]

Personally, I think this is a mindset issue.

20% boost to all your starting skills?  Um... that's already a bit much I think.  50% is ridiculous.  I'm sorry, this isn't because I want to screw people with low playtimes.  At an average, I probably only play just a few hours per day, myself.  There are plenty of ways for your character to make a living without having to join a clan and then you just seek out people that are around, while your character isn't working, to socialize with.  You don't need to get wrapped up into the mega-plots and the social scheming and all that.

I didn't actually mean fifty percent, I just picked a number. Sorry I wasn't clear about that.

[jhunter]

If you can have fun now with one hour play times, even though certain things are tough, annoying, or not to your expectation, then after some enhancements your fun might be marginally better. If you can't, I doubt you'll be able to with those enhancements.

I disagree. The suggestions are coming from people in those exact situations. Noone knows our personal situations better than us. If variations of the suggestions were implemented to help the situation, most of the suggestions would also benefit the game in other areas besides just this particular aspect.

[spawnloser]

How many times does someone think they want something... but what they really want is something else, they just thought the first thing would make it so they had the second thing?  I think that's what making more skilled characters is.  They want to feel like their character isn't a total noob character with no skills.  "I'll take a more skilled character so I can..." isn't a valid reason.  You don't need a more skilled character to have fun.  You need to stop feeling like your character needs coded abilities for you to have fun with the character.

[jhunter]

You don't need to get wrapped up into the mega-plots and the social scheming and all that.

That's like telling someone who wants a meat and potatoes dinner that they don't need meat or potatoes to enjoy it.

[jhunter]

You need to stop feeling like your character needs coded abilities for you to have fun with the character.

No, I don't. That might be perfectly fine for you but it isn't for everyone. Like it or not, it -is- part of the game, if it wasn't we'd be playing a mush.

[musashi]

You need to stop feeling like your character needs coded abilities for you to have fun with the character.

No, I don't. That might be perfectly fine for you but it isn't for everyone. Like it or not, it -is- part of the game, if it wasn't we'd be playing a mush.

True, but I've never found "the grind" to take so long to crawl out from under that I couldn't bear to keep going with the character.

I like a lot of the suggestions that have been offered, things like being able to get messages or items to another player without the need for the both of you to be logged in at exactly the same time would be a wonderful enhancement to both this game and Reborn! An idea like that could not only help bridge the gap between low playtime and high playtime players, but also between peak and off-peak players. It's really a fanastic idea and I hope that the staff consider it for implementation.

While I'm very much against the idea of being "auto-recruited" into any clan, I am for the idea of having a message board (in some IG incarnation, like a servant or rumor mill) outside the establishments of most major clans to again; faciliate in bridging the gap between people with different playing habits.

I think that if we had both of these systems in place, one would not NEED to be online when the rest of their clan mates were to feel as though they're still contributing to the game and making their own characters felt.

For example, lets say you roll up a typical ranger/lone grebber concept because you're an off-peak player and you ALSO don't have a lot of time to play. So worst case scenario on two counts.

With the above two mechanisims in place, you could go join a great merchant house without needing to hope you log in when a leader PC of said house does. I mean you won't have to hope because, through the clan's message board you can make your desire to be hired known, and can either arrange a RL time and day to meet with the needed leader PC via the boards, or perhaps simply have the entire hiring process be managed through the boards with a little bit of staff assistance at the end to add the newly hired PC to the clan.

With that out of the way, your PC can receive assignments and news about the clan through either an in game clan board, or a virtual one like we have on the GDB for most clans already.

So word through the grapevine is that your house needs to come up with a TON of marble, jasper, and goudra hides for an upcoming festival or some such.

Even though your PC isn't usually online when the rest of the clan members are, you're still more than capable of helping with this particular "quest". Your character can go do the work, bring it back to the clan compound or leave it via the previously mentioned coded "delivery service" for your clan leader, and make some kind of announcement on your clan's board to let people know that your PC was out working hard to get it all together.

In doing this, and various other jobs like it, I think that most folks would find a sense of meaning and acomplishment in their characters, no matter their play times or peak hours.

To me, it seems like the real issue behind the thread is that people with low play times feel like they can't even get their PC's foot in the door, and all they can do with the characters they have is greb about to stave off the next "You are thristy. You are hungry." message that pops across their screen, and I agree ... that sucks.

In my experience, grebbing, hunting, crafting, really doing any of the repetitive coded actions in the game, has always been PAINFUL; if there hasn't been any meaning behind doing it aside from "Well I want to the skill to increase so ..."

But I really think that giving players a skill increase off the bat is not the solution. I feel like that's treating the symptome, not the sickness.

What I mean by that is, when my PC's are at 1, 2, 3 hours played and still basically just trying to survive since they can't do ANYTHING yet with any degree of success ... I hate grebbing about with no point behind it.

When my PC's are at 8, 9, 10 days played and are now pretty darn good in all of the skills that they sucked at when I first got into game ... I still hate grebbing about with no point behind it.

So the sickness, to me ... is that people don't want to do log in and muck about without any kind of purpose or clearly defined goal in their mind. Without those goals and sense of purpose the game can start to feel like WoW without the cool graphics.

But for someone with a low playtime, or an off-peak schedule, it's hard to meet up with other PC's and communicate, establish those goals, and get involved. So I say lets introduce tools like the ones LoD mentioned in the OP, that allow characters the ability to communicate and exchange goods/services without needing to share the same play schedule! Something like that would really go a long way to binding the entire player base together instead of breaking it up the way it is now where off-peakers/low playtime kids can really feel like they're playing a different game from the one the on-peakers/high playtime kids are playing.

But I don't think skill increases would bring anything good to the game. I think that folks would just be sitting around bored with slightly better starting stats than the ones they had before.

My two 'sids.

[Comrade Canadia]

Wait, wait, wait.

So several players (GOOD players from what I know of them) bring up the fact that armag is not a good game for casual play - and we're being told that the game is fine and they're not playing it right?

And now spawnloser implying that those who want casual play are just obsessed with high numbers and can't have fun without super-powered characters?

This isn't only dismissive, it's condescending. The game has NEVER been good for casual play, and it has been designed and driven by those who are able to play regularly and put serious amounts of time into their characters and staff roles.

I could accept (if not agree with) "Yes, it's not great for casuals, but that's not the game we built." But pretending that it somehow is good for casuals is just ludicrous to me.