Do Zalanthas fists have chi?

[PurifiedDrinkingWater]

I'm going to pose a very simple question which should warrant a simple response but probably won't. Why is it that unarmed combat in Armageddon is so deadly? I've been in boxing gyms around the world and have never seen guys get KO'd for more than a few minutes, ever. I've also never seen a fist do more damage to somebody than a club. Which it seems is the case on the Mud currently. Is this just outdated code? Is it the way strength factors into the code? Why does "hit" take so much stun? My honest opinion is it is quite silly.

Knocking somebody out is a very hard thing to do. Professionally trained fighters and boxers don't get knocked out as much as you would think. Most fights go the distance when you get into an elite level of striking. Even so, they have their fists covered in padding to prevent the breaking of hands. Now let's assume the people are wearing armor like on the mud, and really, hands would be breaking all over the place on Armageddon. I am just baffled by my most recent experience with boxing. It is very unrealistic.

[Is Friday]

Knockouts shouldn't be as long as they are currently--but as far as people getting knocked out...? It's pretty easy to get KTFO by somebody.

[PurifiedDrinkingWater]

Knockouts shouldn't be as long as they are currently--but as far as people getting knocked out...? It's pretty easy to get KTFO by somebody.

What are you basing that off of? There are people who DIE before they get knocked out. It used to happen in boxing a lot before they got stricter and started with stoppages even if they guy wasn't KO'd. The old Prize Fighting ring rules guys would fight and batter each other literally for hours, hundreds of rounds before somebody would finally succumb; usually to exhaustion before actually being knocked out cold. I'm sorry but getting knocked out by fists is NOT easy. You are far more likely to be knocked out by a blunt object like a club rather then somebodys fist, which they would probably break. Unless they are an elite-level striker or trained boxer.

[Is Friday]

Knockouts shouldn't be as long as they are currently--but as far as people getting knocked out...? It's pretty easy to get KTFO by somebody.

What are you basing that off of? There are people who DIE before they get knocked out. It used to happen in boxing a lot before they got stricter and started with stoppages even if they guy wasn't KO'd. The old Prize Fighting ring rules guys would fight and batter each other literally for hours, hundreds of rounds before somebody would finally succumb; usually to exhaustion before actually being knocked out cold. I'm sorry but getting knocked out by fists is NOT easy. You are far more likely to be knocked out by a blunt object like a club rather then somebodys fist, which they would probably break. Unless they are an elite-level striker or trained boxer.

The reason why boxing matches kept going on and on is because of the way boxing is setup. Boxing does not equate to a brawl.

[PurifiedDrinkingWater]

The reason why boxing matches kept going on and on is because of the way boxing is setup. Boxing does not equate to a brawl.

In many times it does equate to a brawl. What do you define as a 'brawl'? Like I said before the old prizefighting rules lasted for 100+ rounds. The guys would fight for sometimes 8 hours straight, with nobody getting knocked out. You don't consider them brawling? The boxing of the 1800's was very much simply illegal brawling with huge gambling rackets involved.

[Qzzrbl]

Right, boxing = brawl. If you brawl in a tavern against someone, you really don't have to worry about getting knocked out unless your opponent just hammers the shit out of you repeatedly. I've never seen a brawl knockout in Arm personally.

Now "killing" someone with fists is a different story. That's where you're trying to -kill- the motherfucker with your fists. Throat-punches, shots to the temple, solar plexus, etc., etc., etc.... It's not hard to knock someone out if you hit them in those places enough times.

Fists don't do more damage than clubs, in stun or hp.

Fists do lots of stun damage because, IRL, fists generally knock people the fuck out if placed properly.

It's one of those realism vs. playability things, and you won't get a simple answer for it, not even if you got Ghandi to word the question for you.

::EDIT:: Also, let Mike Tyson slam his fist across your face.... You'll see how and why stun damage is how it is. Boxing is different than straight-up fighting. Ever watch UFC? Knockouts are commonplace.

::EDIT 2.0:: Unless your character is wearing big poofy padded gloves.... In which case I suggest you remove them, you silly billy.

[hyzhenhok]

It's only really noticeable with dwarves, muls and half-giants anyway, which is as it should be. These races should be knocking people out more frequently than you would see with IRL boxing. There's no dwarfs or half giants IRL, right?

[X-D]

Ah yes, 100 30 second rounds...Heh. 1800's boxing matches did have rules, far different then we have today.

Knocking somebody out or at least stunning them enough for it to be called a TKO is silly easy...hell, if you ever watch current UFC MMA matches, many of the matches are by KO in just a few hits landed. Getting a KO is simply a matter of knocking somebodies brain around a little bit.


Get into boxing before you shoot off at the mouth on such matters, even in ametuor boxing, which is heavily padded gloves and headgear, KOs happen often.

Now, I do agree that in game a knockout lasts for FAR FAR FAR too long, normaly IRL of somebody is knocked out from blunt blows to the head it is for a few seconds...10-30 on the outside.

[PurifiedDrinkingWater]

Ah yes, 100 30 second rounds...Heh. 1800's boxing matches did have rules, far different then we have today.

Knocking somebody out or at least stunning them enough for it to be called a TKO is silly easy...hell, if you ever watch current UFC MMA matches, many of the matches are by KO in just a few hits landed. Getting a KO is simply a matter of knocking somebodies brain around a little bit.


Get into boxing before you shoot off at the mouth on such matters, even in ametuor boxing, which is heavily padded gloves and headgear, KOs happen often.

Now, I do agree that in game a knockout lasts for FAR FAR FAR too long, normaly IRL of somebody is knocked out from blunt blows to the head it is for a few seconds...10-30 on the outside.

Realistically, you're still wrong. We're wearing armor first of all. The hits take stun from body and neck which make no sense because the only way to knock somebody out is in the head. I've never, ever seen somebody get knocked unconscious from a body shot or from being punched in the neck. That's just ludicrous. Your accusation for me to learn about boxing is pretty arrogant as well considering I've boxed amateur and still train periodically at a gym which also has mixed martial arts. You don't just "get" knocked out by getting hit in the head either. Science is a bit unclear of what a knockout is, but the way the current code works is very unrealistic. That is my gripe.

[PurifiedDrinkingWater]

Fists don't do more damage than clubs, in stun or hp.

Fists do lots of stun damage because, IRL, fists generally knock people the fuck out if placed properly.

You just contradicted yourself here? Yes fists do far more stun damage then clubs. A lightly hit to the head will take WAY more stun than a light bludgeon to the head I assure you. This is easily testable.

[Qzzrbl]

Fists don't do more damage than clubs, in stun or hp.

Fists do lots of stun damage because, IRL, fists generally knock people the fuck out if placed properly.

You just contradicted yourself here? Yes fists do far more stun damage then clubs. A lightly hit to the head will take WAY more stun than a light bludgeon to the head I assure you. This is easily testable.

When did I contradict myself?

I never fists do more stun damage than clubs, I just said they do alot.

Sparring clubs don't count.  

::Edit:: Or maybe I really do need to be more observant.... Anyone else out there willing to help verify either claim?

[Qzzrbl]

Ah yes, 100 30 second rounds...Heh. 1800's boxing matches did have rules, far different then we have today.

Knocking somebody out or at least stunning them enough for it to be called a TKO is silly easy...hell, if you ever watch current UFC MMA matches, many of the matches are by KO in just a few hits landed. Getting a KO is simply a matter of knocking somebodies brain around a little bit.


Get into boxing before you shoot off at the mouth on such matters, even in ametuor boxing, which is heavily padded gloves and headgear, KOs happen often.

Now, I do agree that in game a knockout lasts for FAR FAR FAR too long, normaly IRL of somebody is knocked out from blunt blows to the head it is for a few seconds...10-30 on the outside.

Realistically, you're still wrong. We're wearing armor first of all. The hits take stun from body and neck which make no sense because the only way to knock somebody out is in the head. I've never, ever seen somebody get knocked unconscious from a body shot or from being punched in the neck. That's just ludicrous. Your accusation for me to learn about boxing is pretty arrogant as well considering I've boxed amateur and still train periodically at a gym which also has mixed martial arts. You don't just "get" knocked out by getting hit in the head either. Science is a bit unclear of what a knockout is, but the way the current code works is very unrealistic. That is my gripe.

So you're saying it makes no sense that getting punched in the throat or socked in the solar plexus hard enough knocks you out?

...And you kinda do just *get* knocked out by getting hit in the head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOGd1MRGlo8

Observe.

[X-D]

Science is far from unclear on the matter.

Note I said you simply need to shake somebodies brain about a bit.

And I really tried to not bring up how much boxing MMA UFC, Brawling, bouncing I've done, But since you have. I started boxing when I was 12, I'm 38 now, I still go to the gym at least once a week.

In boxing, I've been KO'd 3 times, TKO 1 time, I've won by KO 6 times and TKO 7 times.  I've seen MANY KO/TKO. When I was bouncing, the favored way to put somebody down is a good punch to the throat. I once had a dude land a single punch on me and I was out for a good 20 seconds. I've also done it to others though normaly it takes two, sending somebodies brain one direction then the other quite often ends in a KO. Armor does nothing to stop your brain from getting shaken and stirred.

IG, fists don't do more damage or stun then weapons.

[Qzzrbl]

Also.... Now that I think about it, who's to say that unarmed fighting = using fists only?

"Hit" is so ambiguous a word, unarmed characters could be throwing in elbows and whatnot.

And elbows hurt -ALOT- more than fists.

[Lizzie]

Stock answer: Because this isn't reality, realistic boxing rules and 1800 boxing techniques and physical traits and real-world physiology does not apply.

I also agree that knockouts last too long, but not because of any comparison to real life. It lasts too long because it's awkward, difficult, and irritating, to roleplay being knocked out so long, or having to stand there waiting for someone knocked out to come around so you can continue the scene.

[Synthesis]

I think his problem might be that a "nick" to the head with a fist can run you 50 stun, whereas a "nick" to the head with a club would only be about 10-15 stun.  So yes, a fist does more stun damage than a weapon, when you're only taking the absolute strength of the blow into account.  (Of course, if you're strong/skilled enough to land a nick to the head with a fist, chances are your blows to the head with a club would be much harder than a mere nick, and the stun damage would probably be similar or greater.)

Personally, I think it's fine.  If you're not good at fighting, you probably shouldn't be getting into fights.

Oh, here's a YouTube video of people being incapacitated by body blows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6mFd00yfgk

[Qzzrbl]

I think this problem could be fixed entirely by lowering stun on unarmed strikes overall, but allow more variable range to their strength.

The hardest unarmed strike I've ever seen IG was "light".

Something like a vicious punch to the head could rock you down to half stun, but a nick isn't that big of a deal, y'know?

[PurifiedDrinkingWater]

I think his problem might be that a "nick" to the head with a fist can run you 50 stun, whereas a "nick" to the head with a club would only be about 10-15 stun.  So yes, a fist does more stun damage than a weapon, when you're only taking the absolute strength of the blow into account.  (Of course, if you're strong/skilled enough to land a nick to the head with a fist, chances are your blows to the head with a club would be much harder than a mere nick, and the stun damage would probably be similar or greater.)

Personally, I think it's fine.  If you're not good at fighting, you probably shouldn't be getting into fights.

Oh, here's a YouTube video of people being incapacitated by body blows:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6mFd00yfgk

No doubt about the body blows. Fist to FLESH. Try fist to armor and you won't do any damage with a body blow. Most people are wearing armor and a 'hit' to the body with a fist still does damage. Make sense? I think not.

The argument has nothing to do with being good at fighting. The subdue/hit from half-giants is one of the most abused aspects of code out there. HIT does way too much stun.

[Delstro]

I have never been knocked out IG by one hit to the head with a club and without a helmet.
I have been sapped three times and I have not been knocked out.
I have been knocked out three times by one hit to the head while I was wearing shell armor, once to the neck, and once to an extremity in unarmed combat. The extremity was by a dwarf.

Bottom line. Yes they do have chi.

[PurifiedDrinkingWater]

I think this problem could be fixed entirely by lowering stun on unarmed strikes overall, but allow more variable range to their strength.

The hardest unarmed strike I've ever seen IG was "light".

Something like a vicious punch to the head could rock you down to half stun, but a nick isn't that big of a deal, y'know?

Anything over a lightly hit to the head will take over 100 stun easily. Lightly hitting the head will take a lot. Solidly hitting or over would probably knock out anybody who isn't a half-giant.

[Qzzrbl]

I think this problem could be fixed entirely by lowering stun on unarmed strikes overall, but allow more variable range to their strength.

The hardest unarmed strike I've ever seen IG was "light".

Something like a vicious punch to the head could rock you down to half stun, but a nick isn't that big of a deal, y'know?

Anything over a lightly hit to the head will take over 100 stun easily. Lightly hitting the head will take a lot. Solidly hitting or over would probably knock out anybody who isn't a half-giant.

Which is why I was suggesting evening it out across the board.

You know, instead of having "light" hits to the neck drop you by 50 stun, it could drop you by 10, then working your way up through the other degrees of hittyness.

I'm just using these numbers as examples because I'm too tired to try and make them playably accurate, so check it.

Nick = 5 stun
Light = 10 stun
Regular= 15 stun
Solid = 20 stun
Hard = 30 stun
Vicious = 50 stun
Horrendous = 60 stun
Brutal = 70 stun

So on and so forth, I can't remember all of the variables for hittyness, but I think you get the idea.

This way, it would take a harder hit to the head than a "nick" to chip off half your stun.

[Synthesis]

Then you'd be more likely to kill someone than knock them out.

[Qzzrbl]

Then you'd be more likely to kill someone than knock them out.

-shrug-

Cut unarmed damage back and make armor do what it's supposed to.

I never understood why unarmed strikes did so much HP damage myself.

[PurifiedDrinkingWater]

Then you'd be more likely to kill someone than knock them out.

I'd prefer that. If somebody knocks you out you're dead anyway if they want you to be. I don't think hits should be leveled damage wise with weapons, hell no. But I'd rather have to run in a fist fight due to damage to my body rather than me feeling I'm on the edge of being KO'd. When you fight you take damage to your body, and the same applies to pugilism. You'd stop from cuts, broken nose, cheek, and any other sort of severe damage, and of course you'd stop if you felt dizzy but most of the time you don't stop from feeling dizzy, you fight on and are fine.

[Qzzrbl]

Then you'd be more likely to kill someone than knock them out.

I'd prefer that. If somebody knocks you out you're dead anyway if they want you to be. I don't think hits should be leveled damage wise with weapons, hell no. But I'd rather have to run in a fist fight due to damage to my body rather than me feeling I'm on the edge of being KO'd. When you fight you take damage to your body, and the same applies to pugilism. You'd stop from cuts, broken nose, cheek, and any other sort of severe damage, and of course you'd stop if you felt dizzy but most of the time you don't stop from feeling dizzy, you fight on and are fine.

In real life, most people are knocked out before they're killed in fistfights....

[Lizzie]

In real life, when a half-giant thumps the anakore-skull helm on your puny desert-elf head..

oh wait, what am I saying...

[Majikal]

I think the unarmed combat works out fine in terms of applying strength to effect, what players need to keep in mind is the realism of how they use it. Watching someone run up on someone in a fight, sheath their great axe and use unarmed to kill because in particular cases it may be more effective seems silly when pictured in my head.

[Dar]

I really dont understand the problem. Do you see people sheathing their weapons because they can do better while unarmed in one on one fights? No, not really. The only time it is relevent, is when it's 2+ on 1, and they're trying to get the guy alive, so those who arent using bludgeon, put it away.


The day somebody sheathes their weapons because they 'truly' believe they'll do better with fists, this conversation is moot.

[PurifiedDrinkingWater]

I really dont understand the problem. Do you see people sheathing their weapons because they can do better while unarmed in one on one fights? No, not really. The only time it is relevent, is when it's 2+ on 1, and they're trying to get the guy alive, so those who arent using bludgeon, put it away.


The day somebody sheathes their weapons because they 'truly' believe they'll do better with fists, this conversation is moot.

Have seen it. Also, you're forgetting the subdue/hit combo of ultimate death. I honestly don't mind the stun damage to the HEAD. I do not understand how the numbers are calculated logically at other locations such as waist/body/neck. Stun represents your consciousness. Not whether you're tired. A body shot wouldn't knock you out, it would drain movement so you couldn't move. Let body shots drain movement instead of stun.

[Is Friday]

I really dont understand the problem. Do you see people sheathing their weapons because they can do better while unarmed in one on one fights? No, not really. The only time it is relevent, is when it's 2+ on 1, and they're trying to get the guy alive, so those who arent using bludgeon, put it away.


The day somebody sheathes their weapons because they 'truly' believe they'll do better with fists, this conversation is moot.

Have seen it. Also, you're forgetting the subdue/hit combo of ultimate death. I honestly don't mind the stun damage to the HEAD. I do not understand how the numbers are calculated logically at other locations such as waist/body/neck. Stun represents your consciousness. Not whether you're tired. A body shot wouldn't knock you out, it would drain movement so you couldn't move. Let body shots drain movement instead of stun.

If you're afraid of subdue/hit, you obviously haven't seen subdue/AXE CHOPPING YOU IN HALF.

edit: I've been kicked in the ribs so hard it knocked me on my ass with the wind knocked out of me. You can bet if he'd followed up with a punch to the head I'd have gotten knocked out. I don't see why it's so bad to have stun to reflect a few generalized things.

K I S S

[SMuz]

I think it works as it should. Most characters in game who have good fistfighting skills are on par with the modern world's professional boxers. Most characters are quite strong after all, even the merchants. And while I've seen a few fresh characters getting KO'ed by fists, I've seen 5-day characters get KO'ed in three hits by a club. It works like it should.

Heheh, to make it more realistic, I suppose an unskilled man punching someone should deal a little stun damage to themselves. Punching bone hurts.

[spawnloser]

I stopped reading after a while.  Have you ever been in a real fist-fight?  It's not like boxing.  In boxing they pad your head and they pad your opponents fists.  In a real fist-fight, neither are all that well padded and you can get knocked silly pretty quick.

I do believe that KO time in Arm is a bit broken, but how fast you can get KO'd is not.

[PurifiedDrinkingWater]

I stopped reading after a while.  Have you ever been in a real fist-fight?  It's not like boxing.  In boxing they pad your head and they pad your opponents fists.  In a real fist-fight, neither are all that well padded and you can get knocked silly pretty quick.

I do believe that KO time in Arm is a bit broken, but how fast you can get KO'd is not.

Of course, when you get punched in the head. Not the body, not the neck, not the waist. Also, these characters are heavily armored. I am basing my posts off the worst case scenario. The code is simply broken. How you can do 50 stun to my body through a breastplate is beyond my understanding. Hell, I could wear boiled leather and you wouldn't do ANY damage to my body with a fist.

Hence my belief that Zalanthans have dragonball z fists.

[PurifiedDrinkingWater]

I think it works as it should. Most characters in game who have good fistfighting skills are on par with the modern world's professional boxers. Most characters are quite strong after all, even the merchants. And while I've seen a few fresh characters getting KO'ed by fists, I've seen 5-day characters get KO'ed in three hits by a club. It works like it should.

Heheh, to make it more realistic, I suppose an unskilled man punching someone should deal a little stun damage to themselves. Punching bone hurts.

That's fine, I make no argument against well-skilled unarmed fighters, but that doesn't exist. Unarmed simply pulls from your strength stat and then the 'hit' damage type drains insane amount of stun. So you get any bum PC with high strength will do well in unarmed which I simply don't agree with. Give me an unarmed skill.

[Qzzrbl]

I think it works as it should. Most characters in game who have good fistfighting skills are on par with the modern world's professional boxers. Most characters are quite strong after all, even the merchants. And while I've seen a few fresh characters getting KO'ed by fists, I've seen 5-day characters get KO'ed in three hits by a club. It works like it should.

Heheh, to make it more realistic, I suppose an unskilled man punching someone should deal a little stun damage to themselves. Punching bone hurts.

That's fine, I make no argument against well-skilled unarmed fighters, but that doesn't exist. Unarmed simply pulls from your strength stat and then the 'hit' damage type drains insane amount of stun. So you get any bum PC with high strength will do well in unarmed which I simply don't agree with. Give me an unarmed skill.

Unarmed skill coming up in Armageddon 2.0

[Synthesis]

I think it works as it should. Most characters in game who have good fistfighting skills are on par with the modern world's professional boxers. Most characters are quite strong after all, even the merchants. And while I've seen a few fresh characters getting KO'ed by fists, I've seen 5-day characters get KO'ed in three hits by a club. It works like it should.

Heheh, to make it more realistic, I suppose an unskilled man punching someone should deal a little stun damage to themselves. Punching bone hurts.

That's fine, I make no argument against well-skilled unarmed fighters, but that doesn't exist. Unarmed simply pulls from your strength stat and then the 'hit' damage type drains insane amount of stun. So you get any bum PC with high strength will do well in unarmed which I simply don't agree with. Give me an unarmed skill.

This just isn't true at all.  You think it's true because you've never played or seen someone whose base defense was so high that they could dodge effectively.  Strength -looks- like it owns all because most people don't have a good enough defense to be untouchable, so those heavy hits land.  It is possible to become so good at unarmed fighting that you can knock people out before they ever manage to land a blow on you with WEAPONS.  However, this takes around a good 30 days of practice, practice, practice.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Syn is correct, with the caveat that while it is possible, it is not safe, and that while the role that offense plays in such a thing is high, it is still not the end all - two other stats play a decent part.

[Olgaris]

In Zalanthas, fists have chi.

[Pale Horse]

In Zalanthas, fists have chi.

And the staff has spoken.

Zalanthan fists have chi, there for, all the seemingly impossibly strong hits we've taken by unarmed opponents are justified.

Prepare for a barrage of future "Jackie Chan" and "Jet Li"-esque characters.

[Synthesis]

In Zalanthas, fists have chi.

And the staff has spoken.

Zalanthan fists have chi, there for, all the seemingly impossibly strong hits we've taken by unarmed opponents are justified.

Prepare for a barrage of future "Jackie Chan" and "Jet Li"-esque characters.

Heh, a long time ago, a friend and I special-apped a city-elf burglar and pickpocket kung-fu fighting team/mini-tribe.  Supposedly we were got our base O/D boosted really high, but on the condition that we could only -ever- fight unarmed, because it was a matter of pride for the tribe.

My buddy died to the first PC he got in a fight with, before my special app. even cleared the queue. 

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Shoulda worn some cestus or knuckles. Both would have counted as unarmed, for IC purposes of 'fighting unarmed'. A weapon always seemed to me to be a stick or something more.

Still, excellent example of the futility in relying on unarmed combat in a general sense.

[evil_erdlu]

If I were a coder, what would I base the damage message on? Possibly HP.. So, let's assume;

The sword does 30 points of damage. For sword, 90% is converted to hp damage, 5% to stun. 5% is lost. You receive a 'solid slash' message, lose 27 hp and 2 stun.

The club does 30 points of damage. For club, 30% is converted to hp damage, 60% to stun, 10% is lost. You receive a 'bludgeoning' message, lose 9 hp and 18 stun.

The fist does 30 points of damage. For unarmed, 10% is converted to hp damage, 70% to stun, 20% is lost. You receive a 'nick' message, lose 3 hp and 21 stun.

Maybe, just maybe, the hit is still as strong but the message is based on only hp damage?

Note: I'm just assuming.. If I were the coder of the MUD, that could be what I would have done. I don't have any evidence and I barely have any experience with combat code.

[Morgenes]

Maybe, just maybe, the hit is still as strong but the message is based on only hp damage?

Note: I'm just assuming.. If I were the coder of the MUD, that could be what I would have done. I don't have any evidence and I barely have any experience with combat code.

You are correct, damage messages are only based on the amount of hp damage.  You can take a lot of stun damage from a 'nick' because the hps were low but the stun damage was high.