Teaching Offense and Defense

[hyzhenhok]

-shrug-

I don't know about you, but the interaction I get with my clan-mates, the constant joking around and talking and  getting to know the other characters a little better.... I kinda find it enjoyable.

It's only as fun as you make it. 

So why would it make sparring obsolete again?

[Qzzrbl]

-shrug-

I don't know about you, but the interaction I get with my clan-mates, the constant joking around and talking and  getting to know the other characters a little better.... I kinda find it enjoyable.

It's only as fun as you make it.  

So why would it make sparring obsolete again?

Because it would make it possible for some people to get good at combat without ever having to lift a weapon to attack/defend anything. Not to say anyone here would do this, but I'm sure someone somewhere will find a justifiable IC reason to make it happen.

I agree with the sentiment that offense and defense = combat experience.

[hyzhenhok]

-shrug-

I don't know about you, but the interaction I get with my clan-mates, the constant joking around and talking and  getting to know the other characters a little better.... I kinda find it enjoyable.

It's only as fun as you make it.  

So why would it make sparring obsolete again?

Because it would make it possible for some people to get good at combat without ever having to lift a weapon to attack/defend anything. Not to say anyone here would do this, but I'm sure someone somewhere will find a justifiable IC reason to make it happen.

I agree with the sentiment that offense and defense = combat experience.

You have to actually roleplay teaching a lesson to justify using the teach command...you're making it out to be as though that isn't the case. I've never seen anyone "teach" a combat skill without including some sparring, so I don't see why offense or defense would be any different.

[Synthesis]

Yeah, because teaching weapon skills makes people totally awesome. 

[Qzzrbl]

Right.... And if I'm correct in my assumption that offense/defense = combat experience, then they should learn through actual combat....

Rather than a few emotes, a speech about how this works in combat and why, and a teach command following.

If high offense/defense didn't mean being a total badass, whether you have weapon skills or not, I wouldn't be so against it being teachable.

But it's a core, integral part of Armageddon's combat system, and having something like that easily attained just doesn't set right with me.

[Synthesis]

Right.... And if I'm correct in my assumption that offense/defense = combat experience, then they should learn through actual combat....

Rather than a few emotes, a speech about how this works in combat and why, and a teach command following.

If high offense/defense didn't mean being a total badass, whether you have weapon skills or not, I wouldn't be so against it being teachable.

But it's a core, integral part of Armageddon's combat system, and having something like that easily attained just doesn't set right with me.

The way the teach command works would prevent people from becoming "total badasses" simply via teach.  However, they would at least be passably competent, which would save us all the nuisance of having our newbie recruits reel-locked and three-shotted because we randomly failed a single rescue attempt, despite having branched from it 10 playing days ago.

[Qzzrbl]

Right.... And if I'm correct in my assumption that offense/defense = combat experience, then they should learn through actual combat....

Rather than a few emotes, a speech about how this works in combat and why, and a teach command following.

If high offense/defense didn't mean being a total badass, whether you have weapon skills or not, I wouldn't be so against it being teachable.

But it's a core, integral part of Armageddon's combat system, and having something like that easily attained just doesn't set right with me.

The way the teach command works would prevent people from becoming "total badasses" simply via teach.  However, they would at least be passably competent, which would save us all the nuisance of having our newbie recruits reel-locked and three-shotted because we randomly failed a single rescue attempt, despite having branched from it 10 playing days ago.

But then every organization's just gonna get a senior of the company to go on a crash-course with new recruits to get them competent in a matter of days, wheras it took weeks for everyone else to get to that level by sparring.

I'm not trying to lead anyone into an argument trap or anything, this is just what I see happening.

[Synthesis]

Why shouldn't people in an organization led by a master of combat be better than your average indie who's just been out fighting scrabs on his own?

[Qzzrbl]

Hmm....

You bring up a really good point, but I'm starting to think that we both have two different ideas as to what offense and defense actually are.

Staff? Definitions plox?

[hyzhenhok]

Right.... And if I'm correct in my assumption that offense/defense = combat experience, then they should learn through actual combat....

Rather than a few emotes, a speech about how this works in combat and why, and a teach command following.

If high offense/defense didn't mean being a total badass, whether you have weapon skills or not, I wouldn't be so against it being teachable.

But it's a core, integral part of Armageddon's combat system, and having something like that easily attained just doesn't set right with me.

The way the teach command works would prevent people from becoming "total badasses" simply via teach.  However, they would at least be passably competent, which would save us all the nuisance of having our newbie recruits reel-locked and three-shotted because we randomly failed a single rescue attempt, despite having branched from it 10 playing days ago.

But then every organization's just gonna get a senior of the company to go on a crash-course with new recruits to get them competent in a matter of days, wheras it took weeks for everyone else to get to that level by sparring.

I'm not trying to lead anyone into an argument trap or anything, this is just what I see happening.

Frankly, it makes a lot more sense that what currently happens.

"Okay, we're going to be training combat skills. Newbie Amos and Newbie Malik, get in the ring and have at it. Eventually (and by eventually I mean after multiple IC weeks) you'll get the hang of it. Meanwhile, Regular Badass and Regular Pwnsauce are going to go off and practice by themselves, because if they tried to teach you newbies something you'd get owned too hard."

[Eloran]

I personally wish offense and defense were taken out altogether. I think they're simply not needed, and because both natural abilities are so powerful, I personally believe there should be no way for anyone to instruct a pupil in either area.

[Qzzrbl]

Right.... And if I'm correct in my assumption that offense/defense = combat experience, then they should learn through actual combat....

Rather than a few emotes, a speech about how this works in combat and why, and a teach command following.

If high offense/defense didn't mean being a total badass, whether you have weapon skills or not, I wouldn't be so against it being teachable.

But it's a core, integral part of Armageddon's combat system, and having something like that easily attained just doesn't set right with me.

The way the teach command works would prevent people from becoming "total badasses" simply via teach.  However, they would at least be passably competent, which would save us all the nuisance of having our newbie recruits reel-locked and three-shotted because we randomly failed a single rescue attempt, despite having branched from it 10 playing days ago.

But then every organization's just gonna get a senior of the company to go on a crash-course with new recruits to get them competent in a matter of days, wheras it took weeks for everyone else to get to that level by sparring.

I'm not trying to lead anyone into an argument trap or anything, this is just what I see happening.

Frankly, it makes a lot more sense that what currently happens.

"Okay, we're going to be training combat skills. Newbie Amos and Newbie Malik, get in the ring and have at it. Eventually (and by eventually I mean after multiple IC weeks) you'll get the hang of it. Meanwhile, Regular Badass and Regular Pwnsauce are going to go off and practice by themselves, because if they tried to teach you newbies something you'd get owned too hard."

That's because the only way to "go easy" on unskilled fighters is to load yourself down with rocks in this game. :/

[Synthesis]

Right.... And if I'm correct in my assumption that offense/defense = combat experience, then they should learn through actual combat....

Rather than a few emotes, a speech about how this works in combat and why, and a teach command following.

If high offense/defense didn't mean being a total badass, whether you have weapon skills or not, I wouldn't be so against it being teachable.

But it's a core, integral part of Armageddon's combat system, and having something like that easily attained just doesn't set right with me.

The way the teach command works would prevent people from becoming "total badasses" simply via teach.  However, they would at least be passably competent, which would save us all the nuisance of having our newbie recruits reel-locked and three-shotted because we randomly failed a single rescue attempt, despite having branched from it 10 playing days ago.

But then every organization's just gonna get a senior of the company to go on a crash-course with new recruits to get them competent in a matter of days, wheras it took weeks for everyone else to get to that level by sparring.

I'm not trying to lead anyone into an argument trap or anything, this is just what I see happening.

Frankly, it makes a lot more sense that what currently happens.

"Okay, we're going to be training combat skills. Newbie Amos and Newbie Malik, get in the ring and have at it. Eventually (and by eventually I mean after multiple IC weeks) you'll get the hang of it. Meanwhile, Regular Badass and Regular Pwnsauce are going to go off and practice by themselves, because if they tried to teach you newbies something you'd get owned too hard."

That's because the only way to "go easy" on unskilled fighters is to load yourself down with rocks in this game. :/

Disengage.

[Eloran]

1) Weigh yourself down.

2) Etwo a shield.

3) Disengage.

4) Es a weapon you're not familiar with.

[Qzzrbl]

1) Weigh yourself down.

2) Etwo a shield.

3) Disengage.

4) Es a weapon you're not familiar with.

Once your offense is high enough, what weapon you use doesn't even matter.

And yeah.... Disengaging after nearly killing your sparring partner in two hits will teach them -alot-.

[Krishnamurti]

I can 'know' everything there is to about say, kung fu... but without going through the motions and training my own body, myself, so that my reaction times in live situations match that knowledge, I'm still useless.

Offense/defense are the only things I can think of that reflect that realism in combat, because they are hidden skills that can't be trained.

[Synthesis]

1) Weigh yourself down.

2) Etwo a shield.

3) Disengage.

4) Es a weapon you're not familiar with.

Once your offense is high enough, what weapon you use doesn't even matter.

And yeah.... Disengaging after nearly killing your sparring partner in two hits will teach them -alot-.

So don't use weapons at all.

And yeah, actually, it does.

[hyzhenhok]

1) Weigh yourself down.

2) Etwo a shield.

3) Disengage.

4) Es a weapon you're not familiar with.

Code Select Expand

The brawny sergeant says, in sirihish, "Don't worry, Runner Amos. We'll get Trooper Malik to teach you a few tricks."

Completely naked and unarmed, the badass trooper has entered from the east, and nods to the Sergeant.

The badass trooper says, in sirihish, "I'm ready to impart my knowledge to the newbie, Sarge."

The puny runner say, "I'm so lucky to have a such a great teacher!"

The puny runner has a grand 'ole time beating the shit out of his glorified sparring dummy. Only he doesn't even manage that much.

Yes, it's so much more realistic than a teach command

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If you really know how code works in this game, as opposed to typical DIKU which doesn't work precisely because of trains and practices, it actually works really good at reflecting how you would learn.

Also, teaching would never make anybody good without training, because it requires the student to be at an distant second to the teacher.

These arguments do not work.

[House Rising Sun]

There are more hidden skills that help represent aspects of being experienced in combat, and taken all together with your visible skills, they represent your "experience".

Offense and defense are skills in every sense of the word. There are techniques involved, methods that a person may never learn if they just show up every morning and spar. A lot of the things people seem to think offense and defense represent are covered by your stats. They also seem to think people are going around teaching left and right as it is. And that teaching is either the shortcut to maxing or even capable of doing that for you.

In any case, chances are this will never happen, so log your lessons well.

[Qzzrbl]

1) Weigh yourself down.

2) Etwo a shield.

3) Disengage.

4) Es a weapon you're not familiar with.

Code Select Expand

The brawny sergeant says, in sirihish, "Don't worry, Runner Amos. We'll get Trooper Malik to teach you a few tricks."

Completely naked and unarmed, the badass trooper has entered from the east, and nods to the Sergeant.

The badass trooper says, in sirihish, "I'm ready to impart my knowledge to the newbie, Sarge."

The puny runner say, "I'm so lucky to have a such a great teacher!"

The puny runner has a grand 'ole time beating the shit out of his glorified sparring dummy. Only he doesn't even manage that much.

Yes, it's so much more realistic than a teach command

Perhaps we should wait on the staff's definition of the offense and defense skills before we discuss it further?

Besides, there are other combat-related skills that can be taught.

Besides, trying to get through to a moving target that isn't easy to hit is pretty good exercise.

::Edit:: And excuse my double "Besides" there.... Ish teh sleepeh.

[Eloran]

A whole lot of crap.

I almost considered taking the time to explain to you what a logical fallacy was, but I don't think it'd do any good.

In short, don't simplify my argument like that. Please.

Offense and defense can best be summed up like in two words:

1) Experience.

2) Intangibles.

You can teach skill. You can teach tactics. You cannot impart experience on your pupil. You cannot impart intangibles on your pupil.

[Riev]

A whole lot of crap.

I almost considered taking the time to explain to you what a logical fallacy was, but I don't think it'd do any good.

In short, don't simplify my argument like that. Please.

Offense and defense can best be summed up like in two words:

1) Experience.

2) Intangibles.

You can teach skill. You can teach tactics. You cannot impart experience on your pupil. You cannot impart intangibles on your pupil.

Gentlemen, this is one of few times I absolutely agree with Eloran. Offense and Defense are skills that, at least how I view them, are to give an idea of your lifetime experiences and combat experience. Those that constantly fight, and never get hit, probably won't have a big defense. Having some guy come in and "teach" you how to get your ass kicked? *shake*

[Majikal]

Gentlemen, this is one of few times I absolutely agree with Eloran. Offense and Defense are skills that, at least how I view them, are to give an idea of your lifetime experiences and combat experience. Those that constantly fight, and never get hit, probably won't have a big defense. Having some guy come in and "teach" you how to get your ass kicked? *shake*

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Gentlemen, this is one of few times I absolutely agree with Eloran. Offense and Defense are skills that, at least how I view them, are to give an idea of your lifetime experiences and combat experience. Those that constantly fight, and never get hit, probably won't have a big defense. Having some guy come in and "teach" you how to get your ass kicked? *shake*

I also have to agree with the man. He's right. I disagree, however, in how he wishes they were removed. In one word? No.