Skill Level and Augmentations

[jmordetsky]

....oh boy...here it comes...

Before you get fired up - I don't want a little number that says you have 100 skill points at tennis. But - I would like to know in some way shape or form how the gear I've purchase effects me.

I do this today with certain boots, and cloaks. I can look at my stam increase to see how effective a given item is. That said - I will reiterate - I would never want a number like stam for combat skill...etc. A lot of this stuff one can ascertain via the description of the item, but you know - there have been plenty of times - when you were buying gear that you were like...hmmm....is this helping me? Even after you read the the desc, its still difficult to tell - this vs that. And the fact is - we allow this now for Stam (amongst other things).

Not only that - but there are a lot of old players that OOCly know this shit - (I'm one of them) which is a bit of an unfair playing field for others. Making it more transparent would not only be more realistic, but it would be a lot more fair.

However - we can't have values. We know this. So - I thought about it, what about a value that was relative to me - Ie, not a global number, but a value that said - while using this [tool|gear|weapon] you feel more confident at [skill].

Something like:

>wear archery brace (lets say this has a coded archery++)
>wear huge armor (defense++, but sneak--)

Code Select Expand



Combat
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Offensive
Defensive [Very confident - huge armor]

Combat skills
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
archery [more confident - archery brace]       kick                                  
bash                                   rescue                                
disarm                                 parry                                
dual wield                             subdue                                
guarding                               shield use                            
flee                                   two handed                            

Weapon skills
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
piercing weapons                       slashing weapons                      
chopping weapons                       bludgeoning weapons                  

Stealth skills
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
sneak [Less confident]                                  





This gives you a gauge of sorts, but avoids globally comparable numbers or values relative to other people.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Hahaha.

Sure, but not a chance in hell it'll happen.

[Synthesis]

All it needs to be is a tag added so that when you ass -v the item (if you have the appropriate skill), you see "suchandsuch would be useful for whatever."  I don't think this is a problem because as jmordetsky pointed out, we allow it for stamina-boosting items.  We also allow it for crafting tools.

Examples:

>ass -v cloak

A dark, hooded cloak can be worn about one's body.
It could probably hold about 5 stones.
A dark, hooded cloak would be useful for moving silently.
A dark, hooded cloak would be useful for concealing oneself.
A dark, hooded cloak appears unremarkable to your eyes.

>ass -v halfsword
You test its weight and decide that you could use it.
You could use this for skinning.
It would be too small to wear on your back.
A sharp, well-balanced bone halfsword would work well for skinning.
A sharp, well-balanced bone halfsword would seem to be a piercing weapon.
A sharp, well-balanced bone halfsword would be useful for critical strikes.
A sharp, well-balanced bone halfsword appears unremarkable to your eyes.

>ass -v boots
A pair of spike-toed, mekillot hide boots can be worn on one's feet.
A pair of spike-toed, mekillot hide boots looks like it will fit you.
A pair of spike-toed, mekillot hide boots would be useful for kicking attacks.


The single greatest problem in the way of implementing this is tracking down and identifying EVERY item that provides a concrete bonus to any skill.  I'm not sure exactly how difficult this would be, actually, since apparently they did it for tools.

[SMuz]

Yes, I'd like this. So annoying when a guy says "Don't wear that sand-colored cloak! It doesn't help outside the city. Instead, take this grey cloak which gives you more stamina to walk around outside!" That's the sort of thing that makes me want to give up on the game.

[Pale Horse]

I like the idea, and what Synthesis added.

Maybe make it guild/sub-guild specific, for your ability to determine (codedly) the benefit the item delivers?

Archery braces for those with the archer sub-guild or those classes that come with the skill/are able to branch it.

Individual weapon skills being needed to know that that chipped obsidian axe would actually work better than that ornate, mantis shell halbard for chopping things apart.

Etc.

Maybe making a limited universal ability for Merchants and their value ability?  They are able to tell when something would be beneficial for it's specified use, but receive less information (at first, if you want to have them masters at telling what an item does) than someone who would have a guild that focuses on the use of said item.

[jmordetsky]

All it needs to be is a tag added so that when you ass -v the item (if you have the appropriate skill), you see "suchandsuch would be useful for whatever."  I don't think this is a problem because as jmordetsky pointed out, we allow it for stamina-boosting items. 

Yea - I agree. That is a better way to do it - the only addition I think I would want is an indication of how useful, like if the bonus is between +1-5 it's useful, 5-10 very useful.

The other thing I would ask for is that negative modifiers were there as well - This item would hamper your ability to defend yourself or this item would hamper your ability to move silently.

[Eloran]

I like the idea, and what Synthesis added.

[Jorlain]

I'd have to say that I don't like this idea very much. It kind of subtracts from the overall environment of Arm.  If people can see the effects of what things do what (ie, knowing certain items give boosts to some attributes or abilities) it'll just turn into a mad dash to get said items, and nobody will wear anything else if they can help it.

When I first came to Arm, I thought not being able to see the attributes of weapons and armor was annoying. Now, I pay less attention to what I'm wearing and try to focus more on what my goals and/or objectives are. I don't really pay attention to the gear my characters wear, unless it's obvious it's not suitable for the task at hand.

Looking at item's descriptions gives a fair amount of information already. How protective it might be, what its uses might be beneficial to. I don't really see the need to add more OOC knowledge to items. Consider what armor and weapons are made from, read the descriptions, and you've got just as good as a guess as we would in real life of guessing how well something will work in certain situations.

[RogueGunslinger]

Wrong. Some items have strange stats and weighted oddly.

[Jorlain]

If the item doesn't meet the description, then it should be bugged, no? -Some- items aside, for the most part you can tell what an item does by reading the description.

[Eloran]

Almost the entire cookbook of armor is bugged. Good luck with that.

[Jorlain]

*shrug* Things can't get fixed if staff are unaware of the problems.

All of that aside, from a OOC perspective being able to see the statistics of items is great. I just don't think it has a place in Armageddon.

[Eloran]

*shrug* Things can't get fixed if staff are unaware of the problems.

I'm pretty sure everyone is aware that armor classes are hopelessly borked.

[jmordetsky]

wtf...see below.

[jmordetsky]

Looking at item's descriptions gives a fair amount of information already. How protective it might be, what its uses might be beneficial to. I don't really see the need to add more OOC knowledge to items. Consider what armor and weapons are made from, read the descriptions, and you've got just as good as a guess as we would in real life of guessing how well something will work in certain situations.

Not true. Some stuff is based on common sense - I wish I could go into details. The keywords here being *some stuff*.

Wrong. Some items have strange stats and weighted oddly.

True.

The point being - in most cases I shouldn't have to use trial and error this understand this stuff. Especially for new players who don't understand the system as a whole yet. It's a very old "arm" argument used by many a person that you should just "read the desc" and then use common sense, but there are five palpable flaws to this philosophy:

1)  As RG said - It's not always f-ing accurate. In fact - I would say it's probably NOT accurate most of the time, or at lease very easily misleading

2)  As a new player, I shouldn't have to figure out through experience that wearing a set of silt horror plates inhibits my ability to sneak. Does it make logical sense that it would? Yar. Do you know that on day 5 of your first character? No. This isn't a decision I should have to make myself. I don't have to think and guess about gravity in real life. Gravity tells me all about itself in my day to day. Understanding what the system supports in terms of the physics of arm isn't something new players should have to guess about.

3) Worse then 2 is that old players know usually through both IC or OOC kanoodling and sharing that certain things are better then others. Recently, I ICly told a comrad of my mine to use a certain item over another because I know it would boost one of her abilities. I know this because I am a twink and have been playing for 10 years. It's not fair to Johnny new guy that I should know that knife A is better for throwing then knife b when their are both throwing knives. or that "desert brown duster" is mildly better for sneaking around in the desert then "desert brown cloak".

4) There is no way to know certain things via trial and error. There are 100 spears in the game. It would logical to assume that long spears would give you significant boosts to defense because of their length. But how can you tell which spear is longer and better for keeping a carru at bay while your friends circle it? You can't tell. The only way you can tell is by going to fight a carru with each spear. You're not going to do that, and if you do know it means you've been playing a really long time.

5) The absolute BEST argument FOR this - is that we would sort through all the inaccuracies faster as a community if the adjustments were open, then the staff ever would in the secret world of descs only. This is the wiki philosphy. If I pick up a 10 FOOT LONG RAZOR CRESCENT BLADED SPEAR and it subtracts from my ability to defend, I could query it. "Why?" and then it could be adjusted.

[Majikal]

I see absolutely nothing wrong with being able to know as a player what your pc would know. You pick up a bracer, throw it on and "oh hey, I could definitely parry a blow off one of these" or to pick up a pair of swords and think "these things are weighted amazingly, almost like they were made to be dual wielded!" or shoes that step soft and so on, these are things a pc experienced with their uses would figure out as they put them on or put them to use.


Yes, it would encourage wearing certain pieces of gear and you would see an increase in particularly hot items but at the same time doesn't that make perfect fucking sense?

[Jenred]

If you're wearing different cloaks and judging the stamina increase before deciding which one to wear, you've already taken the game, fitted a magnum condom and fucked it where the sun doesn't shine. You are ruining what it means to play an RPI and turing it into a "hack and slash FTW". Take this shit elsewhere.

[Synthesis]

If you're wearing different cloaks and judging the stamina increase before deciding which one to wear, you've already taken the game, fitted a magnum condom and fucked it where the sun doesn't shine. You are ruining what it means to play an RPI and turing it into a "hack and slash FTW". Take this shit elsewhere.

[Majikal]

If you're wearing different cloaks and judging the stamina increase before deciding which one to wear, you've already taken the game, fitted a magnum condom and fucked it where the sun doesn't shine. You are ruining what it means to play an RPI and turing it into a "hack and slash FTW". Take this shit elsewhere.

Stam = comfort

Seems realistic to me to pick clothing based off that. You must hate all the rangers that run around in desert/scrub camo.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yeh, gotta agree. Some things are worn for style. Some things are worn for functional purposes. Things worn for functional reasons should be clear.

I didn't like the original example, but the bit added onto assess I do like.

[flurry]

I think it's better for the game if effects like this are hidden. If anything, I'd rather have the effects of stamina-boosting equipment be more opaque.

[Jenred]

It woudn't be -that- big of a deal for me if things like this were consistent across the board.

Its become an unfortunate thing that Mekeda's items have been known to have stat increasing affects and people go out of their way to wear them on all their PCs.

The "really comfortable" cloak that does nothing for stamina is overlooked for the "rigid and uncomfortable thing" that has a bonus.

Its bad roleplaying, and to echo my earlier post, players that try to justify it with "the stat affect means its more comfortable, and thus ICly justified over the item that was created earlier/after" are wrong.

[Majikal]

If the comfy looking items had their stats adjusted to make it fitting, then the comfy shit would get worn more. Unfortunately, if the ragged, fucked up cloak gives + 3214123 to stam, it'll be worn, because the code suggests comfort in the desert.

[jmordetsky]

If you're wearing different cloaks and judging the stamina increase before deciding which one to wear, you've already taken the game, fitted a magnum condom and fucked it where the sun doesn't shine. You are ruining what it means to play an RPI and turing it into a "hack and slash FTW". Take this shit elsewhere.

That's fucking retarded. You characters IC motivation to stay cool in the desert does not make you a bad roleplayer. People have been spewing this nonsense for years.

So by that logic, my character should pick an item that would codedly reduce his ability to move in the desert (thus being less comfortable and less cool) because the desc said it was comfortable.

Don't mix stat + skill twinkling with a desire for transparency, it's not the same thing.

[Jenred]

Not all items that have stat bonuses are any better or worse then ones that don't. As time progressed, certain items just got a more liberal helping of bonuses. It doesn't mean they are more comfortable, in fact some have no real justification why they'd be +20 stamina over a counterpart that is by its description "more comfortable".

There are rigid, descriptively uncomfortable things in the game that give more bonuses then other things.

It is an error, and an inconsistency in building standards. Items implemented long ago don't routinely get reviewed, and they rely on players ideaing/typoing/bugging them to get them on the same page as newer items.

And then when big projects go in, ear-marks (read perked items) are usually attached.

[jmordetsky]

Not all items that have stat bonuses are any better or worse then ones that don't.

Items implemented long ago don't routinely get reviewed, and they rely on players ideaing/typoing/bugging them to get them on the same page as newer items.

I agree with you. And the only way to really solve it is to make the effects transparent so people can bug them. Keeping it hidden will continue it as is.

[5 day lifespan]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Moh's scale for hardness in building materials.  One can tell IRL that Oak is harder than Balsa, even if I don't know how many HP of damage it will do.  Same with different types of stone or chitin.

[Bogre]

I pick my cloaks by the cool looking desc/stamina+ determinant scale. It's very complicated   

But can you tell the difference between basalt and jade? I mean...not really. I think the solution is to keep making items in line with their desc. And it's not all about stamina boosts for boots in particular...maybe the fluffly tregil-skin fancy jackboots from lord snozzpants you own are really nice and let air breath but really really hard on your soles if you walk on them.

[RogueGunslinger]

I was -SO- pissed off when I spent a large amount of sid on a pair of boots with tons of hints to traveling and comfort, only to find my worn out pair of chalton leather boots had more stam+.

I wore them anyways.

[Delstro]

I am in favor of the tag being added. I am not a master at everything irl. Seriously I am not. My character is really only good at doing what I am good at. This would allow me to let them keep progressing through life.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Frankly, I'd love it if enough effect flags were added to correctly depict every item of gear, and if multiple effects were added to things that deserved it. That means that:

A pair of black, kryl-plated boots can be worn on one's feet.
A pair of black, kryl-plated boots looks like it will fit you.
A pair of black, kryl-plated boots appear to be rather awkward. (-2 move)
A pair of black, kryl-plated boots appear to hinder climbing. (-5 climb)
A pair of black, kryl-plated boots appear to be very useful for kicking. (+3 kick)
A pair of black, kryl-plated boots appear to be very protective. (plate armor)

or

A pair of brown, leather-soled boots can be worn on one's feet.
A pair of brown, leather-soled boots looks like it will fit you.
A pair of brown, leather-soled boots appears to be very comfortable. (+5 move)
A pair of brown, leather-soled boots appears to be sort of unprotective. (shoddy work)

Obviously, the things in parenthesis are not seen by players.

This is what I'd like to really see. I could produce an entire list, with positive and negative messages, if I were asked to, and could create the effects as well. I know this is an RPI, but every tool should do something, and every piece of armor should have advantages and disadvantages, based solely upon the description. Some clothing should do things, or hinder things.

Allanaki high-fashion has agility murdering qualities. Tuluki items have movement hindering qualities at times. I'd love to create a system whereby everything was equally beneficial and detrimental as they should be. It's part of the RPI experience.

[jmordetsky]

Frankly, I'd love it if enough effect flags were added to correctly depict every item of gear, and if multiple effects were added to things that deserved it. That means that:

A pair of black, kryl-plated boots can be worn on one's feet.
A pair of black, kryl-plated boots looks like it will fit you.
A pair of black, kryl-plated boots appear to be rather awkward. (-2 move)
A pair of black, kryl-plated boots appear to hinder climbing. (-5 climb)
A pair of black, kryl-plated boots appear to be very useful for kicking. (+3 kick)
A pair of black, kryl-plated boots appear to be very protective. (plate armor)

or

A pair of brown, leather-soled boots can be worn on one's feet.
A pair of brown, leather-soled boots looks like it will fit you.
A pair of brown, leather-soled boots appears to be very comfortable. (+5 move)
A pair of brown, leather-soled boots appears to be sort of unprotective. (shoddy work)

Obviously, the things in parenthesis are not seen by players.

This is what I'd like to really see. I could produce an entire list, with positive and negative messages, if I were asked to, and could create the effects as well. I know this is an RPI, but every tool should do something, and every piece of armor should have advantages and disadvantages, based solely upon the description. Some clothing should do things, or hinder things.

Allanaki high-fashion has agility murdering qualities. Tuluki items have movement hindering qualities at times. I'd love to create a system whereby everything was equally beneficial and detrimental as they should be. It's part of the RPI experience.

I'd love all of that save for the numbers...I think have a keyword like [good|very good|excellent|exceptional] would be better, but I guess once you know what those represent it wouldn't matter but...numbers...meh.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Frankly, I'd love it if enough effect flags were added to correctly depict every item of gear, and if multiple effects were added to things that deserved it. That means that:

A pair of black, kryl-plated boots can be worn on one's feet.
A pair of black, kryl-plated boots looks like it will fit you.
A pair of black, kryl-plated boots appear to be rather awkward. (-2 move)
A pair of black, kryl-plated boots appear to hinder climbing. (-5 climb)
A pair of black, kryl-plated boots appear to be very useful for kicking. (+3 kick)
A pair of black, kryl-plated boots appear to be very protective. (plate armor)

or

A pair of brown, leather-soled boots can be worn on one's feet.
A pair of brown, leather-soled boots looks like it will fit you.
A pair of brown, leather-soled boots appears to be very comfortable. (+5 move)
A pair of brown, leather-soled boots appears to be sort of unprotective. (shoddy work)

Obviously, the things in parenthesis are not seen by players.

This is what I'd like to really see. I could produce an entire list, with positive and negative messages, if I were asked to, and could create the effects as well. I know this is an RPI, but every tool should do something, and every piece of armor should have advantages and disadvantages, based solely upon the description. Some clothing should do things, or hinder things.

Allanaki high-fashion has agility murdering qualities. Tuluki items have movement hindering qualities at times. I'd love to create a system whereby everything was equally beneficial and detrimental as they should be. It's part of the RPI experience.

I'd love all of that save for the numbers...I think have a keyword like [good|very good|excellent|exceptional] would be better, but I guess once you know what those represent it wouldn't matter but...numbers...meh.

Relevant portion bolded. 

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

To be more descriptive:

Let's take an effect that affects stamina.

Unless I miss my guess, staff can already assign this to an item in a process that is, more or less, along the lines of -2 or +3, and so on. There may a different process, but this is the simplest to explain and also the most likely.

The change would do this to this effect.

It would create an effects message section of code, or script. Each effect would have a different set of messages, one positive and one negative. No effect would result in no message.

For stamina, the positive result (ie: +#) would have a message like this:
   #ITEM appears to be %# for maintaining your endurance.
The negative result (ie: -#) would have a message like this:
   #ITEM appears to be %# wearing on your endurance.

The symbol %# is used to reference another section of list-like code, where adjective values are placed for each effect. For instance, for stamina, this might be the list:
// + stamina
   okay (1-5), fairly good (6-10), good (11-20), really good (21-25), great (26-30), exceptional (30+)
// - stamina
   sort of (1-5), a little (6-10), quite (11-20), quite (21-25), horribly (26-30), terribly (30+)

So then a builder builds a pair of grey hide boots, and decides that they are poorly made, with heavy soles. He decides to tuck a -6 onto the boots.

When you assess the boots, you get:
   A pair of grey hide boots can be worn on one's feet.
   A pair of grey hide boots looks like it will fit you.
   A pair of grey hide boots appears to be a little wearing on your endurance.

[jmordetsky]

Relevant portion bolded. 

HAHAHA. yea, I need to learn to read.

[greasygemo]

So.. Is this how you write a master craft request if the item is intended to increase a stat/skill?  Gives +10 to sneak and -10 to endurance? Or whatever?

[Jeshin]

If you wish to have a special factor to your MC such as bonsues to sneaking, endurance, it's actually better to include your intention in a character report in regular request. The reason for this is so the staff can give you their thoughts or advice on the topic. Once your MC submission is sent, if they refuse, it burns your monthly attempt.

[Calavera]

If you wish to have a special factor to your MC such as bonsues to sneaking, endurance, it's actually better to include your intention in a character report in regular request. The reason for this is so the staff can give you their thoughts or advice on the topic. Once your MC submission is sent, if they refuse, it burns your monthly attempt.

This isn't strictly true. I can and regularly do ask questions in mastercraft requests, both regarding item bonuses/attributes and for more basic purposes such as requesting spellchecking or rewriting. There's a lot of dialogue that goes into mastercrafting and in the year I've been on staff, it's never ended in us just canceling someone's mastercraft attempt altogether. There's plenty of margin for changes to be made.

[bcw81]

If you wish to have a special factor to your MC such as bonsues to sneaking, endurance, it's actually better to include your intention in a character report in regular request. The reason for this is so the staff can give you their thoughts or advice on the topic. Once your MC submission is sent, if they refuse, it burns your monthly attempt.

This isn't strictly true. I can and regularly do ask questions in mastercraft requests, both regarding item bonuses/attributes and for more basic purposes such as requesting spellchecking or rewriting. There's a lot of dialogue that goes into mastercrafting and in the year I've been on staff, it's never ended in us just canceling someone's mastercraft attempt altogether. There's plenty of margin for changes to be made.

To add to this point, I tried to mastercraft a bonnet once and staff told me no, but they left the request open and allowed me to submit something new in its stead.

[RogueGunslinger]

Please tell me it was "the pretty floral bonnet".

[Delirium]

or I will end you.

[bcw81]

Please tell me it was "the pretty floral bonnet".

It was. It was indeed.

Keywords: bonnet pretty floral pattern [REDACTED]
SDESC: a pretty, floral bonnet
LDESC:  a pretty bonnet lies discarded on the floor, covered in a floral pattern

Mind you, staff wouldn't allow this. :c

[BleakOne]

Please tell me it was "the pretty floral bonnet".

Perfect thing for the scarred, war-torn mul to wear.

[Bast]

Please tell me it was "the pretty floral bonnet".

Perfect thing for the scarred, war-torn mul to wear.

Awww they should have let that one in in.  well maybe not with the pretty part but 'frilly floral bonnet' or something.

[Cind]

Just throwing it out there, what if this were implemented and your ability to determine whether a pair of boots were good for travel/kicking/climbing was determined by your guild? Like you had three pairs of boots and needed to go travel by foot somewhere and asked your hunter friend which pair they thought would be best for traveling, instead of being able to tell by yourself, because this is the first time you needed to decide on such a thing since you're an assassin or merchant or something. But a burglar could assess a pair's ability to assist in climbing, and a warrior could assess boots for kicking, a pickpocket for fleeing. To me that would make more sense than someone who has never left the city walls nor knows anything about travel checking out their new pair of boots and seeing that they're great for traveling.

[Kismetic]

It's sort of already like that.  Sort of.

[hyzhenhok]

Obviously it would be similar to tools and weapons already are: you only know something might be useful if you have the relevant skill.

[maxid]

Synthesis' posts sum up how I feel it should be done, though I know it'd probably be a ton of effort to do so.

[AreteX]

I like the idea for being able to tell if something is useful...

IF you have the skill in question.

Someone assessing an archery brace with no clue about archery shouldn't really know the nuances of why it would help them out.  The same goes for some noble who has never hidden a day in their life about some sneaky cloak..  "That cloak doesn't look very posh on me, Mr. Tiddlywinks, I think I'll toss it in the garbage.  The bright orange one is much more... fun!".

Though for all intents and purposes, just let everyone see it.  Especially if its easier to implement.

[Synthesis]

It would be somewhat amusing (especially for elf crafters) if you could craft things with faux-bonus messages that would appear to anyone with a certain low level of skill, but not for someone with mastery of the skill.

[Patuk]

Hell, I want elves to be able to craft things with the quality of Chinese sweatshop toys. I want my elven traveling merchant selling daggers that fall apart after two strikes and mugs that leak the shit out of any liquid poured into them.

[Kaineus]

Hell, I want elves to be able to craft things with the quality of Chinese sweatshop toys. I want my elven traveling merchant selling daggers that fall apart after two strikes and mugs that leak the shit out of any liquid poured into them.

LOL. I didn't figure Europeans would be so cynical about Chinese manufacturing as well, but I guess due to globalism your markets have been flooded with Chinese manufactured goods for a while, too. But remember, that country makes almost all of our ipods and other electronic shiny things as well

Anyhoo, there's nothing stopping elves from making apprentice and jman level crafts and using their swindling skills to try and sell them and pass them off as valuable goods What I would be a fan of would be making trapped goods, like a fancy lantern that explodes and deals damage as soon as someone tries to light it. That's pretty elfy imo :3

[Nyr]

We're probably not going to do this.

However, this thread has been going for three years and it would make more sense to go ahead and lock it. This kind of thing is not where we really want to see things go at this time.