Derail of Discussion of Pregnancy Article

[Dalmeth]

Commoners are not treated this way. Templars never walk into the Gaj, say "I'm bored, you, you and you, fight to the death". Long ago, it used to be more this way, with templars killing people on a whim, but now their behavior is much more restrained than that.

They never say that, but it's happened to me on a few occasions.  Admittedly, I managed to squeeze out each time, and it was a Templar's representative that dragged me in on some trumped up charge, but there was always someone else waiting to go into the arena with me.  It was fantastic each time.

The control over the commoner population is just as absolute through soldiers and swords. For both gemmed and commoners, it's do what you want except for breaking the law. It's just that the average gemmer is more dangerous than the average commoner, thus the extra security.

A commoner can walk into the Rinth and largely be free of the laws of Allanak.  Also, once they're outside the city walls, they're again largely on their own. [IC Info removed by Nyr.]

I see the elementalist's quarter as being more a matter of segregation from an unwelcoming commoner populace. It prevents problems from developing through proximity.

Yes.  They protect their property.  Is the Elementalist's Quarter anything other than a ghetto?  You keep pointing out these narrow circumstances. I'm pointing out the consequences of those circumstances.  Slaves are always kept separate from the general populace, ostensibly for protection.  Can you name any situation where this wasn't the case?

Certainly they can be useful to the templarate. On the other hand, it's quite possible to live out a life as a gemmer without ever serving as artillery or without ever even being approached by a templar since acquiring the gem. During the Copper War, for instance, the templars didn't force anyone to go when they passed through the Quarter, recruiting. The gemmed are normally free to do precisely what they want. Nothing forces them to cast a single time and develop their abilities. They are not chattel to any individual.

Stress normally.  They are normally free to do anything they want until they garner a templar's attention.  You also just said they are often treated like disposable commodities.  Isn't that awfully close to chattel?

A slave can go their entire lives simply performing the duties that maintain the lifestyle of their fellow slaves.  They can never lift a finger to do anything that ever directly benefits their overseers.  That doesn't make them free.

Also, I wouldn't want to force anyone onto a battlefield that didn't want to be there. So, can you answer me, yes or no, whether the Elementalist's Quarter functions as a breeding place for this artillery-class mage?

Frankly, the militia more resemble slaves than they do.

That's because we expect them to be on duty every day for the entirety of their lives.  Don't make me go into that one.

The gemmed have had their own organization (CAM) and lost it only through political manipulation.

If the CAM was disbanded because they lost permission, it was never really theirs to begin with.

They've been allowed to contract out their services to parties other than the templarate, without having to share the profits from those endeavors with the Highlord or the templarate.

Commoners can do all these things too, but all those profits and other property are subject to seizure without reparation by the state of Allanak.  Just like everyone else who isn't a noble.

Templars have customarily paid gemmed for their services in the past. None of this seems very slavelike to me.

I've seen slaves (bought and collared) given gifts of gear and other tidbits when they perform above par.  It's nothing unusual, and it is not a reliable distinction between a slave and a free man.

Let me put this in another way.  A commoner with no magickal ability doesn't have to wear a gem.  They are free to move to Red Storm, Luir's, or even Tuluk.  There is no such thing, legally speaking, as a commoner with magickal abilities in Allanak.  They're either an elementalist with a gem or about to die.  From the moment they put on the gem, they belong to Tektolnes forever.  Period.  End of story.

Why are you so against this interpretation?  You aren't producing many facts.  Technically, everyone but the God-Kings themselves are slaves.  Gemmers are even supposed to be looked down upon.  The gem is an everpresent symbol and reality of Allanak's more personal control over them.  What gives?

[Dalmeth]

Gemmers are useful, which is why they're allowed to live with the controls placed upon them by the templars.  The templars don't care if there are more gemmers except that more gemmers means more useful people to get under control and make do things for them.

Except for one thing, as Salt Merchant pointed out, not every magicker is really useful.  The gemmer spamcasting in the temples are a player invention.  The ones the Templars want are the cream of the crop.

[Is Friday]

Commoners are not treated this way. Templars never walk into the Gaj, say "I'm bored, you, you and you, fight to the death". Long ago, it used to be more this way, with templars killing people on a whim, but now their behavior is much more restrained than that.

This has happened to 3 of my PCs. Twice, it was to characters with under 1 day of play. All three times my characters lived, and one was enslaved to the militia for life. Fun stuff.

[Salt Merchant]

They never say that, but it's happened to me on a few occasions.  Admittedly, I managed to squeeze out each time, and it was a Templar's representative that dragged me in on some trumped up charge, but there was always someone else waiting to go into the arena with me.  It was fantastic each time.

The fact that you escaped each time (as did Is Friday) is a good indication that you didn't end up fighting to the death in the arena after all, which is what Yseulte in her bloodlust for arbitrary mage death was describing.

The control over the commoner population is just as absolute through soldiers and swords. For both gemmed and commoners, it's do what you want except for breaking the law. It's just that the average gemmer is more dangerous than the average commoner, thus the extra security.

A commoner can walk into the Rinth and largely be free of the laws of Allanak.  Also, once they're outside the city walls, they're again largely on their own.  Gemmers, though, can get their magickal little heads popped from the other side of the world.  That is a demonstrably a greater degree of control.

1. I'm not sure that this is actually true.
2. Getting too IC.  
3. It doesn't really counter the point I was making. If a templar wants a commoner dead, he can post a bounty and hire assassins (ironically, those assassins are often gemmed). The gemmed are no more slaves than the mundane commoners are in this regard.

I see the elementalist's quarter as being more a matter of segregation from an unwelcoming commoner populace. It prevents problems from developing through proximity.

Yes.  They protect their property.  Is the Elementalist's Quarter anything other than a ghetto?  You keep pointing out these narrow circumstances. I'm pointing out the consequences of those circumstances.  Slaves are always kept separate from the general populace, ostensibly for protection.  Can you name any situation where this wasn't the case?

I don't believe the templarate much cares about protecting the gemmed. In fact, I've seen certain templars deliberately remove soldiers from the gemmed quarter. What they're doing is preventing annoying trouble between commoners and gemmed, and preventing the commoners from being stirred up by displays of magick.

Certainly they can be useful to the templarate. On the other hand, it's quite possible to live out a life as a gemmer without ever serving as artillery or without ever even being approached by a templar since acquiring the gem. During the Copper War, for instance, the templars didn't force anyone to go when they passed through the Quarter, recruiting. The gemmed are normally free to do precisely what they want. Nothing forces them to cast a single time and develop their abilities. They are not chattel to any individual.

Stress normally.  They are normally free to do anything they want until they garner a templar's attention.  You also just said they are often treated like disposable commodities.  Isn't that awfully close to chattel?

Commoners also have to follow a templar's orders. There's no difference, except that gemmed are more useful and so get called upon more often.

The point I was making about being disposable commodities is that it's the gemmed that are most often called upon and thrust into dangers at a templar's whim. Whenever the latest superfoe pops up, the gemmed are hauled out first. That should be enough to satisfy Yseulte's bloodthirst. But I'd call that conscription rather than slavery.

A slave can go their entire lives simply performing the duties that maintain the lifestyle of their fellow slaves.  They can never lift a finger to do anything that ever directly benefits their overseers.  That doesn't make them free.

I'd say this point is truly grasping at straws. Such slaves are still serving their owner's purposes.

Whereas a gemmed can do nothing at all and live a life of perfect leisure as it pleases them. Except for conscription, if it ever even happens.

Also, I wouldn't want to force anyone onto a battlefield that didn't want to be there.

Now you're throwing away the one argument you really have, which is that the service is involuntary and therefore slavery.

It often isn't involuntary; the templar will ask a particular gemmed to enter his service or to do a task for a fee. Gemmed can and have said no. Again, not like slavery.

The gemmed have had their own organization (CAM) and lost it only through political manipulation.

If the CAM was disbanded because they lost permission, it was never really theirs to begin with.

The fact that CAM came to an end doesn't mean it didn't exist for many years and do business, all with the knowledge of the templarate. Can't erase history with a senatorial edict.

They've been allowed to contract out their services to parties other than the templarate, without having to share the profits from those endeavors with the Highlord or the templarate.

Commoners can do all these things too, but all those profits and other property are subject to seizure without reparation by the state of Allanak.  Just like everyone else who isn't a noble.

Except for slaves who cannot not run their own business and take profit from them and keep the proceeds rather than passing them over to their owner.

Templars have customarily paid gemmed for their services in the past. None of this seems very slavelike to me.

I've seen slaves (bought and collared) given gifts of gear and other tidbits when they perform above par.  It's nothing unusual, and it is not a reliable distinction between a slave and a free man.

There is a distinction between a payment to a hireling and a gift to a slave. Payments are agreed upon in advance, for one thing. Payments can be expected for service, for another thing.

Let me put this in another way.  A commoner with no magickal ability doesn't have to wear a gem.  They are free to move to Red Storm, Luir's, or even Tuluk.  There is no such thing, legally speaking, as a commoner with magickal abilities in Allanak.  They're either an elementalist with a gem or about to die.  From the moment they put on the gem, they belong to Tektolnes forever.  Period.  End of story.

I've seen nothing in the documentation that supports your claim that they belong to Tektolnes. Quote me some documention or quote a staff member's official opinion that supports this and I'll concede this point. Otherwise, it's simply your own invention.

Why are you so against this interpretation?  You aren't producing many facts.  Technically, everyone but the God-Kings themselves are slaves.  Gemmers are even supposed to be looked down upon.  The gem is an everpresent symbol and reality of Allanak's more personal control over them.  What gives?

I've produced plenty of points in support of my viewpoint, you just don't acknowledge them. Your interpretation of slavery seems to amount to anyone whom another has complete authority over. That is not the same thing as being personal property (chattel). I will grant you that the gemmed don't have any special status relative to commoners, but I would not define either commoners or gemmed to be slaves.

There are slaves in Allanak and they are not gemmed nor commoners. They have specific owners and very limited existences. They are a very different class of being.

Presently, the templarate often doesn't care if the gemmed live or die. If the gemmed are officially declared to be slaves, I can forsee the templarate changing to treating them that way. Other organizations would stop hiring them even under the table. No payment for service (but still no food and water provided). No giving the gemmed a choice about service. Impossible to set one's own goals (not allowed to own or do anything). Not allowed to leave the city because that would be threatening the Highlord's property. Excluded from the taverns. Basically characters of six guilds all being forced into one singular role: magicky slave. It's been repeatedly pointed out on the GDB how boring playing the role of a slave can be. No thanks.

[Is Friday]

The fact that you escaped each time (as did Is Friday) is a good indication that you didn't end up fighting to the death in the arena after all, which is what Yseulte in her bloodlust for arbitrary mage death was describing.

Yeah, they did fight to the death. Only, my character isn't the one who died.

[Pale Horse]

Sooooo....how about that pregnancy article, eh?  And the derail that came off of it.  Interesting stuff, yeah?

[Jingo]

Sooooo....how about that pregnancy article, eh?  And the derail that came off of it.  Interesting stuff, yeah?

Can't do.

Too busy arguing semantics.

p.s.

Gemmers are not a slave role.

[Salt Merchant]

The fact that you escaped each time (as did Is Friday) is a good indication that you didn't end up fighting to the death in the arena after all, which is what Yseulte in her bloodlust for arbitrary mage death was describing.

Yeah, they did fight to the death. Only, my character isn't the one who died.

You've had two one-day olds characters that triumphed in fights to the death? You must be good.

[Marauder Moe]

So, in short... don't mess with baby gemmers or pregnant templars?

[Pale Horse]

So, in short... don't mess with baby gemmers or pregnant templars?

A pregnant Templar?

...Do they really exist?

*shudders*

[Taven]

Sooooo....how about that pregnancy article, eh?  And the derail that came off of it.  Interesting stuff, yeah?

...And I think we've derailed a derailing of another thread.

We have skillz.

[Is Friday]

The fact that you escaped each time (as did Is Friday) is a good indication that you didn't end up fighting to the death in the arena after all, which is what Yseulte in her bloodlust for arbitrary mage death was describing.

Yeah, they did fight to the death. Only, my character isn't the one who died.

You've had two one-day olds characters that triumphed in fights to the death? You must be good.

The best. 

[spawnloser]

Gemmers are useful, which is why they're allowed to live with the controls placed upon them by the templars.  The templars don't care if there are more gemmers except that more gemmers means more useful people to get under control and make do things for them.

Except for one thing, as Salt Merchant pointed out, not every magicker is really useful.  The gemmer spamcasting in the temples are a player invention.  The ones the Templars want are the cream of the crop.

I cry bullshit.  There are all sorts of tasks I have seen gemmers used for that don't require the cream of the crop.  Every magicker is useful, so long as the player knows how to make their character useful.  I'm not talking about super secret stuff, either.  I'm talking about taking advantage of that elementalists perks/skills that make him/her better at certain things than other people.

Additionally, you can get to being the cream of the crop without spamcasting, let alone spamcasting in temples.  Spamcasting in temples is the chumpy way to do it, and not only that, having never used any of your spells in a live situation, you'll never understand how to use them in live situations.  I played a gemmer that made it to cream of the crop without every spamcasting in my temple.  My character's life was lived, my character doing things like work and explore and make deals and meet people and kill stuff and all the rest.

[Jingo]

Gemmers are useful, which is why they're allowed to live with the controls placed upon them by the templars.  The templars don't care if there are more gemmers except that more gemmers means more useful people to get under control and make do things for them.

Except for one thing, as Salt Merchant pointed out, not every magicker is really useful.  The gemmer spamcasting in the temples are a player invention.  The ones the Templars want are the cream of the crop.

I cry bullshit.  There are all sorts of tasks I have seen gemmers used for that don't require the cream of the crop.  Every magicker is useful, so long as the player knows how to make their character useful.  I'm not talking about super secret stuff, either.  I'm talking about taking advantage of that elementalists perks/skills that make him/her better at certain things than other people.

Additionally, you can get to being the cream of the crop without spamcasting, let alone spamcasting in temples.  Spamcasting in temples is the chumpy way to do it, and not only that, having never used any of your spells in a live situation, you'll never understand how to use them in live situations.  I played a gemmer that made it to cream of the crop without every spamcasting in my temple.  My character's life was lived, my character doing things like work and explore and make deals and meet people and kill stuff and all the rest.

I've done this before with a hidden mage. I'll admit it's fun, but I don't see how you can actually develope any magickal skills that way.

I spent almost 20 days with that character, who was probably better with the haggle and listen skill than any spells.

[Dalmeth]

I cry bullshit.  There are all sorts of tasks I have seen gemmers used for that don't require the cream of the crop.  Every magicker is useful, so long as the player knows how to make their character useful.  I'm not talking about super secret stuff, either.  I'm talking about taking advantage of that elementalists perks/skills that make him/her better at certain things than other people.

Additionally, you can get to being the cream of the crop without spamcasting, let alone spamcasting in temples.  Spamcasting in temples is the chumpy way to do it, and not only that, having never used any of your spells in a live situation, you'll never understand how to use them in live situations.  I played a gemmer that made it to cream of the crop without every spamcasting in my temple.  My character's life was lived, my character doing things like work and explore and make deals and meet people and kill stuff and all the rest.

Alright.  Let me rephrase.  The gemmer who persistently improves their skills in magick is largely a player invention.  Admittedly, it's encouraged by the way the skills are set up, but still, the majority of gemmers are probably not all that good at all with magick.

[spawnloser]

I disagree.  I believe that the magickers of the world are just like everybody else... some young kids, some slackers, some dedicated practitioners.  I'm sure the v/NPC popular has a distribution of 'how skilled they be' similar to all the non-magickers of the world... some good at a few things, some good at all, some excellent and some others that insist on sucking it up like a pro.  That's human nature.

Also, there are PCs that don't practice their spells and end up remaining some schmuck that's barely useful, just like the other low to middling powered characters that just happen to be v/NPCs.

[Dalmeth]

I believe that the magickers of the world are just like everybody else... some young kids, some slackers, some dedicated practitioners.  I'm sure the v/NPC popular has a distribution of 'how skilled they be' similar to all the non-magickers of the world... some good at a few things, some good at all, some excellent and some others that insist on sucking it up like a pro.  That's human nature.

Also, there are PCs that don't practice their spells and end up remaining some schmuck that's barely useful, just like the other low to middling powered characters that just happen to be v/NPCs.

That would be my point.  The average gemmer is not really all that more useful than the average commoner, given the wide range of ability that should be present in the population.  They may know a few spells, but are they truly reliable in the realm of what a templar would want to use them for?  I'd say most are not.  Your assertion that the average gemmer is more useful than your average commoner is based on the idea that gemmer has been working on their spells, an idea in part inspired by the lack of skill degradation.  A PC's skills always improve over a given stretch of time, so the average gemmer PC has more potential than your average commoner PC in terms of raw power.

[MarshallDFX]

Just to make a light point, on the subject of pregnancy rolls.  I would only see this necessary, if there was a surplus of sex, and a severe lack of pregnancy.

In my character's experience, it seems to be completely the opposite.   

[jhunter]

Commoners are not treated this way. Templars never walk into the Gaj, say "I'm bored, you, you and you, fight to the death". Long ago, it used to be more this way, with templars killing people on a whim, but now their behavior is much more restrained than that.

This has happened to 3 of my PCs. Twice, it was to characters with under 1 day of play. All three times my characters lived, and one was enslaved to the militia for life. Fun stuff.

Yeah, I think I liked it more when it was more likely that a templar might do something like this.

[spawnloser]

I believe that the magickers of the world are just like everybody else... some young kids, some slackers, some dedicated practitioners.  I'm sure the v/NPC popular has a distribution of 'how skilled they be' similar to all the non-magickers of the world... some good at a few things, some good at all, some excellent and some others that insist on sucking it up like a pro.  That's human nature.

Also, there are PCs that don't practice their spells and end up remaining some schmuck that's barely useful, just like the other low to middling powered characters that just happen to be v/NPCs.

That would be my point.  The average gemmer is not really all that more useful than the average commoner, given the wide range of ability that should be present in the population.  They may know a few spells, but are they truly reliable in the realm of what a templar would want to use them for?  I'd say most are not.  Your assertion that the average gemmer is more useful than your average commoner is based on the idea that gemmer has been working on their spells, an idea in part inspired by the lack of skill degradation.  A PC's skills always improve over a given stretch of time, so the average gemmer PC has more potential than your average commoner PC in terms of raw power.

No, that would not be your point.  I'm saying that they have a similar range of skill.  However, even the lowest-skilled magicker of any element can do things no normal can do.