Armageddon Community should make a stronger effort to stop witch-hunting twinks.

[brytta.leofa]

Automating skill bumps at chargen just seems... wrong to me.

There are good arguments for not doing it, don't get me wrong.  But it's one of several reasons that we don't have many middle-aged PCs.

[staggerlee]

Automating skill bumps at chargen just seems... wrong to me.

There are good arguments for not doing it, don't get me wrong.  But it's one of several reasons that we don't have many middle-aged PCs.

Or players.

More seriously, I agree that certain staff policies encourage a heavy handed, coded response. Every time there's a ruling against a res for a pc who drank cleaning fluid or starved while link dead, it reminds people that code is what matters.

If I can kill my opponent through twinking and exploits, I may get a slap on the wrist, but their pc will still be dead.  The lesson is obvious.

As long as the staff policy encourages a dependence on code, people will focus on code.  Explicitly the MUD claims to put RP first, but there's no mechanism for rewarding rp, and there's a ton of things encouraging code use. It makes for a schizophrenic, or seemingly hypocritical game.

Sure we can police ourselves... but I believe in a more structural, less confused approach. I don't blame people for being confused as to how to play the game properly: The whole system encourages that kind of confusion and frustration.

[Eloran]

Explicitly the MUD claims to put RP first, but there's no mechanism for rewarding rp.

Sure there is. It's called karma.

[Sephiroto]

What witch hunt?  Without twinks there would be less competition.  The game would be more boring.

As a long-time player I really hate playing a 0 day character.  Trying to explain why I am a warrior who fucking sucks at everything is just as jarring to the immersion as the "who c" command.  I know this is a derail, but it is on point with one of the arguments posted above.  I'm all for any karma-based options that allow for marginal/moderate skill boosts to new characters.  1. Because I have karma.  2. Because if I'm trusted enough to play the badass sorc/psion of doomz or a ninja Templar, why can't I start the equivelant of a 5-10 day warrior/assassin/pickpocket and actually have a good time RP'ing out my first days?

[staggerlee]

Explicitly the MUD claims to put RP first, but there's no mechanism for rewarding rp.

Sure there is. It's called karma.

Karma     (Character)

In such a richly detailed playing environment as the world of Zalanthas, which is very different to most game settings most players will have encountered, there must be some degree of control over which players get to play which roles. The alternative (and this has happened in the past) is that we have a lot of people going around playing races and guilds very badly (i.e., nowhere near what the game's creators intended). Karma is one way in which the staff members exercise this control.

Karma is simply a measure of trust that the staff members have in a given player's:

- Degree of maturity and responsibility as a role-player, as evidenced
    by playing roles 'realistically.'

    - Knowledge of the game world, and an appreciation of the way in which
    the various races, guilds, and so on, interact.

    - Role-playing skill, as evidenced by role-playing in such a way as to
    show that they are really involved in the game world, and also
    enriching the game world for other players.

    Karma is not an end in itself. Acquiring karma points is not something you should be 'striving towards' as a player; the fun that you get out of role-playing your character should be the primary reward in itself.

    Players never get to know how much karma they have, and only find out when a character dies, and it is time to create a new character. (In which case, they will find that they have more options than before, i.e., certain races and guilds which are 'blanked out' for new players are now visible.) Since karma is not an end in itself, there are no 'guidelines' for 'how to get karma' although there are certain things that good players will exhibit in their playing (see the three points above).

    There are, however, certain things that will almost guarantee that you may not be the type of player who will gain karma. Following is a list of features of players who will likely never gain karma, and reasons why these things are considered bad on Armageddon MUD. You will likely not gain karma if you are the type of player who:

Never emotes:

Emoting is the primary form of non-verbal communication in the game, and is in fact a very powerful tool for enriching the game world for both yourself and other players. Not using emotes is somewhat akin to a person in real life who always talks in a monotone, and never shows any facial expression.

Does not play within the guidelines set out for your character's clan:

(assuming he/she is in a clan). For example, if your character is in a band of raiders, who have sworn never to enter Allanak for various good reasons, and you have your character enter Allanak (even when you think no one else is on-line ...) on a whim, then you are role-playing poorly. It's like someone who, in real life, lives safely and happily in a prosperous city and decides to visit a war zone on the other side of the world 'just because they feel like it.'

Skillmax:

(i.e., repeat commands over and over again, with the intention of trying to raise your character's skill levels). Certainly, everyone practices skills to some degree, but how many people (even on a harsh world such as Zalanthas) blindly repeat things to the exclusion of sleep, food, and social interaction? In some games, it is common to see PCs sparring for several game hours non-stop. On Armageddon MUD, this is considered very unrealistic, and thus, poor role-playing.

Suiciding your character just so that you can see if there are new race/guild options available to you in the character creation process is not acceptable, and will be punished by removal of all karma.

Karma is a totally out of character (OOC) concept, and should have no bearing whatsoever on what happens in the game.

Part of the function of karma is to make life easier for the staff members; those players who over time have demonstrated desirable qualities will 'automatically' gain access to privileged races and guilds. Gaining karma is not, however, the only way to do this. If you feel that you have a case to make about why you should be allowed to play a privileged race or guild (e.g., mul or sorcerer), then you are free to submit a application via the request tool, available at:

http://www.armageddon.org/request

See also:
    Guilds, Races, Roleplaying

In short, I don't believe it is.

[Good Gortok]

Armag is designed for twinking.

As a caveat, I don't feel I twink, and in fact most of my characters tend to be codedly on the weak side compared to other characters with similar playtimes. I suffer from powergamer's guilt, and just can't spam code endlessly. This also means I'm not playing the game according to how it is designed.

Let's look at the skill system to start off:

1. Every character starts weak as a kitten.

2. Skills must be practiced repeatedly in order for them to go up. Powergaming code exists in order to stop people from overdoing the same skill in a short period... but any good twink knows how to work around this and still increase skills rapidly.

3. Code is law. Every staff post I've read, and arbitration I've heard of in situations where the code has interfered in game world continuity has had the staff side with the code.

So let's say that I want to play an older man in his mid-40s who's been in some sort of mundane combat role all of his life. This is a pretty generic character concept, and in order to play it, I'd have to spend the first several days of playtime sparring obsessively instead of doing something fun like roleplaying. Why? Because it makes -no sense- for a 40 year old character who's been fighting his entire life to get his ass kicked by a 16 year old with eight days played.

See, armag's roots are hack & slash, and no matter how much roleplaying we layer on top of it, there's still that H&S core. The game has the mentality of any computer roleplaying game. Characters start weak, kill monsters, gather treasure, and become strong. The game world is predicated on this, and though we MANY roles which don't use coded stuff at all (usually the most entertaining roles in my experience), that code is still there. I can think of countless examples of nobles getting disciplined for using all these shiny coded abilities in ways which don't jive with the game world because they get bored or whatever.

I don't like twinks because they ruin my immersion, but we have to recognize where they're coming from in the first place and address those issues, rather than reactively punishing twinks when they commit their crimes against roleplay.

This is exactly right. The code encourages twinking and powergaming in two ways:

1) It does not prevent twinking

2) It rewards twinking

There are so many things that could be done, so many things that other RPIs have done where Armageddon has become old-fashioned and sub-par by newer standards. To not twink is to accept a disadvantage, especially considering how many players choose to play with the code, and not realism, as their limit. There will always be twinks, but there can and should be measures that prevent them from gaining the staggering advantages that they always have here, and somethng should long ago have been done about the fact that the code encourages powergaming at every turn.

For someone with a goal in mind, twinking rather than "proper roleplay" is an infinitely superior way of reaching that goal. Whether you want a full set of badass armor, a maxed backstab skill or to branch Power Word: Pwn, twinking allows the observant player to do this with blinding speed while it often takes the responsible roleplayer an almost prohibitively long time to do. Nothing stands in the way of the twink short of the very lenient skill timers and the easily out-maneuvered chance of dying.

For someone who seeks to have the upper hand in every situation, it is so easy to forego roleplay and wield the code whenever the situation calls for it. Whether doing the age-old draw sword;east;kill man or spam-zigzag-walking away from any threat, the code trumps any arguments of realism and responsibility. There are no rules that say you must stop to portray your actions in a realistic, immersive manner. It is encouraged, but it is not punishable to refrain.

There are countless examples of things that players can and do practice in order to bend the premises of the game to their advantage, and just as many examples of how the code or the rules are woefully inept at discouraging it. Here are some examples of what other RPIs have done to prevent twinking and powergaming:

- Skill block-out timers that prevent excessive use of certain skills to the player's advantage. A valuable or profitable craft might only be possible to complete every 6 RL hours.
- Rules of Engagement that force players to roleplay PvP scenes rather than turning it into a contest of who can hit the other over the head first.
- More realistic health code that prevents people from fighting or hunting every five minutes.
- Skill-up timers that do not allow skills to increase faster than what is considered intended.
- Lack of limitless income venues which prevents players from becoming rich in no time.

One of the big problems with Armageddon is that twinking and powergaming is officially frowned upon, but very possible. If magickers aren't meant to branch every other hour, why can they? If you shouldn't go out fighting three times per IC day, why does it take 30 seconds to fully recover your health? These are things that make no sense to me, and I never understood why the source of twinkery wasn't taken away.

Another problem is that powergaming seems like almost the only way for some concepts to be viable within a reasonable span of time. You just can't start a criminal organization without a massive wad of cash, so instead of asking your minions to take jobs with Kadius for 50 sid a week, you ask them to go mining for 2500 sid a week. You simply can't become a passable assassin in any kind of time if you don't seek out those ritikki to train your backstab skill. If you want some measure of combat prowess in the rinth, you have to kill innocent beggars and bag ladies because none of the NPCs that can be fought are actually worth a realistic mugging.

Armageddon is the twink RPI. It's sort of discouraged but not prevented, and enough players do it that those who don't are at a significant disadvantage. This will never change unless the staff wants it to.

[spawnloser]

Explicitly the MUD claims to put RP first, but there's no mechanism for rewarding rp.

Sure there is. It's called karma.

(snip)

- Degree of maturity and responsibility as a role-player, as evidenced
   by playing roles 'realistically.'

(snip)

   - Role-playing skill, as evidenced by role-playing in such a way as to
   show that they are really involved in the game world, and also
   enriching the game world for other players.

(snip)

In short, I don't believe it is.

In short, I do believe it is.

[X-D]

I think most of you think the word "twink" means "anybody with skills better then yours".

This is not intended to be a flame but from what I read over and over, this is the case.

Many of you will quote the docs on the matter then ignore your own quote of the docs.

If my PC spends 1 ic hour per Ic day working some skills (this is less then any house schedule BTW) And the rest of the time tavern sitting, socializing, whatever. Am I a twink? Because I assure you that with that 1 IC hour per IC day practice I can...as somebody else put it "max the skills with blazing speed".

Practicing skills is NOT...let me repeat NOT twinking. Twinking is ignoring the game world or the fact that your PC is supposed to be a person. If your PC sits in the sparring hall for 5 game days straight without leaving for rest or anything...that is twinking (and not gonna get you any farther then the one there for 1 IC hour each of the 5 days).

Then there is the fact that many of you do not take into account PC wisdom.

Believe me when I say this, it matters and it matters a LOT. A human with ave wis will take over twice as long to max a skill as a human with Extremely good wis, and that is if they both practice the exact same amount. And lets not even get into the non-humans.

I have more I'd love to say but I am sure that the "responsible roleplayers" (rolls eyes) Would consider it flaming so I will stop here.

[Lizzie]

Well I'm definitely not confusing the two situations XD. My issue is very narrow in scope, but -seems- to be common. Whether it really is common or not, is a matter of numbers that I don't have access to. But it is a matter of perspective. I can tell you, that the instances of what *I* think are "twinkery" match or are similar to the instances that *you* think are twinkery. And I feel it is prevalent enough that it's an actual problem.

I wouldn't begrudge anyone for spending an hour a game-day sparring, or three hours or four if their clan schedule calls for it. What I"m talking about, is when they spar, then sit and go afk/idle, then get up and spar again, then sit and go afk/idle, then spar, walk around the city, walk back, spar again, sit and go afk/idle, rinse repeat.

Or when they mine sid, go to the sleeping room of the gaj, rest til their stamina regens. Stand, go out to the deposit, mine sid, go to the sleeping room of the gaj, rest til their stamina regens. Sell the sid accumulated, to back out and mine sid, then go to the sleeping room of the Gaj, rest til their stamina regens.

That's what *I* consider twinking. And I've seen enough of it that I feel it is a problem.

[spawnloser]

What really annoys me are the gemmers that do nothing but sit in a temple and spam-cast.  They never leave to go interact with people... to give people a chance to piss in their cheerios or even kill them as this character goes off to finally act like a real person, doing more than one thing in a day.... week... month.

[Comrade Canadia]

X-D, I'm pretty sure I'm being intentionally misinterpreted here. I'm not trying to describe you and those who play like you as a twink, nor am I describing -myself- as responsible roleplayer. I'm not holding myself above the mud - I still play it after all, and I still put in my time upping my skills every session because it's a part of the game.

I don't even particularly like the term twink, because it's sort of an all or none thing. I know some brilliant roleplayers who are also the most mindless code-jockeys, and have spent their armagging careers learning every single possible trick to skillmax. I also know some shit roleplayers who also don't do much with the code. It varies. I'm not accusing the average armer of being a a poor roleplayer who only cares about code.

What I'm arguing here is what Good Gortok so eloquently pointed out: those who want to use code to achieve their means over roleplay have the advantage. No matter how many times you apply the world roleplay to armag, those who will forsake roleplay in the name code-spam will get what they want more easily.

Another way to put it:

Spam-sparring until you're both at near-death, sleeping to heal back up, and sparring again will get you better skill raises than a single heavily emoted combat scene. Personally, I don't feel this is conducive to roleplay.

[RogueGunslinger]

Roleplay needs to be rewarded. In a more substantial way than Karma.

I don't see Karma as a reward for roleplay, because I don't really plan on playing a halfgiant, or magicker. Psion option is way way way out of my reach. And the special application option already offers these things.

[X-D]

Spam-sparring until you're both at near-death, sleeping to heal back up, and sparring again will get you better skill raises than a single heavily emoted combat scene. Personally, I don't feel this is conducive to roleplay.

This part is true.

But, it, like as you said, the term "twink" Is all or nothing.

Mostly let me say that my other post is that I hate that everybody throws the word/term "twink" around for everything. When per the docs, it has a very precise definition and people use it for many things other then that.

But as for your above example,  one way is just as bad as the other. People should strive for the balance. I think that is what staff strives for. And what I do.

And Lizzie, thats why I did not target anybody in my other post, though I could go through this thread and pull at least 3 posts where the poster is indeed saying "his skills are better...TWINKS!".

Of course I do not see why people worry so much about it. So Joe goes and mines obsidian 10 RL hours a day for 2 RL weeks straight and has 100,000 coins in the bank. So what? All this means is you have a PC with 140 hours played, tons of loot, really nice boots and no skills....(called raider bait) and nobody knows or cares about him.

These things tend to take care of themselves one way or another.

[Lizzie]

Actually, now Joe had enough sids to buy himself a nice bribe from the templar that Sue Fair-Player just paid to kill him. So he can go and act like a total asshole when he finally decides to be a "public" persona, and ain't no one can do diddly shit about it, because HE can afford to pay off the right people more than you can. All because he spam-mined and spam-slept in the Gaj while you were busy - roleplaying.

[jstorrie]

If you were busy roleplaying, I seriously doubt that Joe Sidminer is going to beat you in the social arena, no matter how much money he has.

[Good Gortok]

People will defend anything on these forums.

[Comrade Canadia]

If you were busy roleplaying, I seriously doubt that Joe Sidminer is going to beat you in the social arena, no matter how much money he has.

What if I don't want to be a social mover? What if I want to be a normal person who hangs out with his/her friends and has role which involves code? If my social roleplay involves pointless fun, but I am also roleplaying being dedicated and good at my job, I'm at a supreme disadvantage to a twink who doesn't realistically roleplay anything, but knows the code and has the sheer bloody-mindedness to crank up his skills. EVEN THOUGH roleplay wise, I may be better at my job.

I'm not talking about whether political networking makes you more powerful than having a high defense skill, you can't compare the two. What I'm talking about is whether or not roleplaying the same things that code does will get you farther along than the actual code. I'm sticking with my example because it hasn't really been trumped out yet:

A beautifully roleplayed, in character combat training session or hell - a virtual encounter with foes created simply for an entertaining little story will never get you anywhere when it actually comes time to do your job as a guard. The shmoe who stayed away from the roleplay and instead just did his requisite amount of sparring is going to be the better guard every single time. He/she could be fifteen years old with a background that indicates he's the worst fighter in Zalanthas, and your character could be twenty-eight and have a few fights under his/her belt, and the one who sparrs the most wins.

Because this is the case, the game structure encourages twinking, even though the game rules discourage it.

[Jingo]

I don't think the issue is so much as "he is skilling up faster more than me, that means he is a twink".

I think it has more to do with "he is skilling up faster than me, and I feel the need to twink to catch up".

Often though, what I've noticed is that isn't so much that they are twinking. More that they know how the code works so they are able to skill up with less work.

But this game is so competitive, and the potential for loss is high enough that I would consider cutting corners in my RP if I felt like my character was lagging behind in power or skill. And this, honestly is the origin of my single bad account note.

[ibusoe]

Or players.

More seriously, I agree that certain staff policies encourage a heavy handed, coded response. Every time there's a ruling against a res for a pc who drank cleaning fluid or starved while link dead, it reminds people that code is what matters.

If I can kill my opponent through twinking and exploits, I may get a slap on the wrist, but their pc will still be dead.  The lesson is obvious.

As long as the staff policy encourages a dependence on code, people will focus on code.  Explicitly the MUD claims to put RP first, but there's no mechanism for rewarding rp, and there's a ton of things encouraging code use. It makes for a schizophrenic, or seemingly hypocritical game.

Sure we can police ourselves... but I believe in a more structural, less confused approach. I don't blame people for being confused as to how to play the game properly: The whole system encourages that kind of confusion and frustration.

I like this quote.  There were a bunch more that I like too but I'm in a bit too much of a hurry to post them all.

I thank those who tried providing me advice and encouragement but I assure you that I'm not mad at the game.  I'm actually having a terrific time with the game.  I'm having a better clan experience than I've ever had.  The one or two conflicts that my character is involved in are with role-players that I respect.  Everything is going so well.

But I want to point out how much I like this thread.  I've seen an amount of candor and honesty out of people discussing the twink situation and I think that mutual understanding would help to ease tensions.

[Qzzrbl]

Explicitly the MUD claims to put RP first, but there's no mechanism for rewarding rp, and there's a ton of things encouraging code use. It makes for a schizophrenic, or seemingly hypocritical game.

Your reward for RP is being allowed to play.

[X-D]

And now I have to bring up the often said, emote does not equal RP, Using code does not equal no RP.

If you do nothing but talk to people and emote everything out you are no better or worse in RP then somebody that never emotes but uses code.

As I also said, it is all about balance. The person who is going to get along the best is going to be balanced between code/social/emotes etc.

And that is the great part about this game. If you do balance them then you will be better off then any of the above examples given.

I have had broke PCs who had a good social network, I did not have any worry that joe the rich sid miner is going to have him killed, odds are whoever he tried to hire is a friend or friend of a friend and would take the money then kill joe the sid miner. At the same time, the PC had enough skill to take out most any assassin sent after him anyway.

If you are neglecting your coded skills but saying you are good at your job of being a guard you are neglecting RP...actually, you are Roleplaying poorly. Sorry, it is not a mush.

[Lizzie]

I think the examples given by staggerlee are bad ones - if you drink from a keg of cleaning fluid, serves you right for not LOOKing at the keg. It states very clearly, in OOC terms, that you should -not- drink from the cask. It specifies it. As far as I know, you can't starve while link-dead anymore unless you were already starving before you went link-dead, so it isn't applicable.

As for the staff policies encouraging twinking, I'm not sure I'm seeing any of that. Here are the staff policies:

Examples of inappropriate play:

    * Actions designed purely to advance skills, such as spamming commands, with no regard for roleplay.
    * Disregarding the game world, such as stealing repeatedly from an NPC who is shouting "Thief!"
    * Disregarding the state of your character, such as sparring repeatedly when your character is seriously wounded.
    * Code abuse, such as finding a loophole that can be exploited to your character's gain and employing it to do so.
    * Using OOC information to drive the actions of your character, such as information gained through a previous character, or from another player outside the game.
    * Excessive use of the OOC command in a way that is disruptive to other players' enjoyment of the game.
    * Abuse of the quit command, such as quitting out to avoid capture or confrontations with other PCs or staff.

...from http://www.armageddon.org/general/rules.html

It's pretty clear to me, that anyone finding loopholes in the code that are used in a way UNintended, is cheating. That using code contrary to the spirit of roleplay is cheating. That spam-sparring without considering the state of your character is cheating. That spam-casting without regard to roleplay is cheating.

Notice, that nowhere does it say spamming is against the rules. It is specific. Spamming for the purpose of advancing skills, *without regard to roleplay*.

It seems pretty clear to me, that the staff has certain expectations of the playerbase. They've even done us all the courtesy of putting it in text, which was published in 2006. So we've all had the opportunity to read it.

[staggerlee]

The examples used are over a year old, as per the rules. They no longer apply, and are merely meant to serve as examples.

Explicitly the MUD claims to put RP first, but there's no mechanism for rewarding rp, and there's a ton of things encouraging code use. It makes for a schizophrenic, or seemingly hypocritical game.

Your reward for RP is being allowed to play.

This isn't true. You are currently allowed to play the game without rping.

[MarshallDFX]

The hack and slash, diku base is what makes Armageddon fun, and not just a roleplay chatroom.  It's undoubtedly a balancing act.  

On one hand:  People are correct in saying that my 15 year old slender, twiggy lad should be a worse fighter than a 28 year old behemoth, bloodthirsty warrior (but isn't due to my twinkery)..  That doesn't make much sense, IG.

On the other hand: I don't want my hours played, and determined effort to spend time IG to be completely wiped out by something entirely arbitrary, like someone putting in their background "most awesomest warrior in the -world-".

The hack n' slash code is like alcohol.  Often pleasurable and entertaining, but should be used responsibly.

[Lizzie]

Agreed with Marshall. The staff has given us the tools with which to enjoy a terrific combination of H&S and MUSH in a pretty decent hybrid codebase. They have also given us, in advance, the trust to abide by the rules and not cheat. If we betray that trust, then we should be held accountable for it. That's why I don't feel there's any witch hunt. If enough people get around the rules, it gets to the point where you just can't spend any more time scolding them. Instead, you have to make a code decision that will affect everyone else.

It's unfortunate, but that's how it is. It's not specific to Armageddon either. The games I've played in the past have had to adjust their code to "accommodate" a proliferation of abusers. You really can't prevent it. You can discourage it through code, you can even prevent it with code. But the more code changes you make to prevent things, the more you limit options of people who aren't abusing the code at all. The only other choice, really, is to dedicate staff members to the exclusive function of catching cheaters. I don't imagine anyone who would volunteer for such a job, nor would I have much faith in any game that would advertise for it.

If there was a way to wave a magic wand and know that from now on, everyone will be worthy of whatever trust is given to them, it'd be great. But there isn't. And until then, the staff will need free reign to do whatever is necessary to do what they feel is in the best interests of the game as a whole, given the influx of "really smart people who know how to get around the code, and do." If it means culling the skills list from one guy, removing karma options from another, and making a game-wide code change, then that's what it means, and in general, I don't see much of a problem with it.

As far as the whole who.c thing goes, I've only been in one clan that had it. I might as well not have had it at all, since I was usually the only person logged in from the clan anyway, and the one or two others who were logged in, were either link-dead or getting ready to log out anyway. I really don't miss it at all and don't see why anyone would make a fuss about it.