Weapons

[Chettaman]

has this been proposed before? Seems like it has.

I was thinking about it. Using a longsword to pierce someone would be nice. I hear there are some exceptions, but I'd want to be able to stab with any weapon. Unless I was using a hammer or something, then it would be like a prod. And I don't mean just stab. I want to be able to bludgeon a person with a longsword too.
With a longsword you could just use the flat side to bludgeon someone with or use the handle. But it wouldn't just change how you're attacking. But how much damage you're doing and your accuracy and speed.
For a certain longsword:
slashing- normal stats
bludgeoning- less accuracy, attacks less, more stun damage
piercing- simply do less damage, attacks more often
chopping- more damage, less accuracy

Like different styles of fighting. It would make combat, if you're interested  in combat, more interesting. You wouldn't have to carry around one of every weapon everywhere you go just in case. With just one weapon, if your opponent was lacking in that weapon skill, you could find the advantage by just using a different kind of attack.

thoughts?

[Delstro]

I don't know what your last semi-paragraph was about, but I do wish all weapons were useable like the way you proposed.

[Semper]

With the way the code works now, probably not possible to do this. Perhaps for Arm 2.

Also, it would take a lot of work to implement.

But good idea. It would be neat if it was possible.

[Yam]

With the way the code works now, probably not possible to do this. Perhaps for Arm 2.

Also, it would take a lot of work to implement.

But good idea. It would be neat if it was possible.

There are some weapons that are 'flippable' between different styles. It's certainly doable with this code, but probably not very efficient.

[SMuz]

Not very realistic either. Longsword..
Slashing - Normal, yes

Bludgeoning - 5-10% damage
No balance for it, and you'll likely snap it in half with the quality of Zalanthan weapons. Unless you do a mordhau, which makes complete sense (though no Zalanthan would be caught gripping the blade part of obsidian).

Piercing - maybe 70%, but trying to balance it for is pretty damn tough because of the weight.

Chopping - ?
Exactly the same damage, I'd assume, but you're swinging it a lot more awkwardly.


I suppose it could work with halberds, certain axes, but heck, those are only very few weapons. Best choice would be something like the chinese ji, which was designed for thrusting, slashing, chopping, even hooking, though obviously those kinds of weapons haven't made it into the game because its not codedly possible.

[Qzzrbl]

I've always found it annoying that foot-long knives and daggers and shortswords could be used only for piercing.

Even if slashing would take a negative on piercing weapons or vice-versa, if I'm maxxed out at slashing, it'd likely override that negative.

And I'd imagine trying to use a sword as a chopping weapon would increase the damage a little more (I've always thought of chopping as putting ass-loads of weight into the swings), but greatly increase the chance of breaking. And I wouldn't think that a slashing weapon would ever be a good substitute for an axe or what-have-you. But like I said, if I'm maxxed at chopping and all I have is a sword, it'd probably still be worth a shot.

Just my two cents on the matter.

[a strange shadow]

Technically, the way things work now, this could be roleplayed out and backed up reasonably well by the code.

It's not like you can't attempt to use a weapon that isn't your primary choice.

[Lizzie]

I assumed that daggers and shortswords and longknives weren't slashing, because they don't have a cutting edge. Dull edges don't cut. Cutting edges cut. Pointy things poke/pierce/stab. Big broad surfaces bludgeon. Now, a spiked mace, should be both bludgeoning AND piercing, at the same time. It -should- have two attack effects per hit. Because you're smacking something with a big heavy object, that -also- has really sharp protrusions sticking out of it.

Other than that, I don't see any problem with pointy things not being able to slice something, and cutting edges that don't come to a point, not being able to pierce something.

The right tool for the right job, I always say! And when in doubt, use a fork.

[Qzzrbl]

I assumed that daggers and shortswords and longknives weren't slashing, because they don't have a cutting edge. Dull edges don't cut. Cutting edges cut. Pointy things poke/pierce/stab. Big broad surfaces bludgeon. Now, a spiked mace, should be both bludgeoning AND piercing, at the same time. It -should- have two attack effects per hit. Because you're smacking something with a big heavy object, that -also- has really sharp protrusions sticking out of it.

Other than that, I don't see any problem with pointy things not being able to slice something, and cutting edges that don't come to a point, not being able to pierce something.

The right tool for the right job, I always say! And when in doubt, use a fork.

Most piercing weapons also serve as skinning tools as well. So I'd imagine there's -some- sort of edge on them.

[SMuz]

 

I don't think weapon skills have anything to do with how the weapon deals damage (e.g. spikes on a mace), but how the weapon is used. "Slashing" with an axe is like swinging a hockey stick like a baseball bat.

Slashing - most of the momentum is put into the middle of the blade, the 'sweet spot'. That's pretty much where a metal blade would be able to dish out the most damage. With a short sword, you don't really have a sweet spot. Try swinging a knife, then swing a sword. It's an entirely different concept. Not a cleaver/machete. Cleavers are designed for slashing motion.

Bludgeoning - there is basically a big load of mass on one tip, and your arm is swinging it in the form to deal the most force (torque?) on that heavy bit, thus dealing the strongest impact. Doesn't really matter whether it's blunt or has a spike on it.

Chopping - Somewhere of a cross between slashing and bludgeoning, but different. You have a mass on the tip. You try to swing the mass, but the point where you want it to hit is in the middle of the axe blade. A board with a nail can be considered chopping, but only if you're trying to hit specifically with that nail. You do not "chop" with a sword, unless it's one of those egyptian style swords, or possibly something like a military scythe.

Piercing - there is a sharp point. You put all the strength in your body and focus it on that point. It's a bit iffy that daggers and spears are both "piercing". But IRL, if you want to hurt someone with a knife, you definitely need to poke someone in the same form you'd use a spear. Foot to shoulder to forward thrust. Minimal waist movement.


Also, note that weapon skills aren't entirely about hitting. It's also about recovering from a miss or hit, balancing your body to suit the weapon style. Different weapons require different movement.

[hyzhenhok]

I don't think weapon skills have anything to do with how the weapon deals damage (e.g. spikes on a mace), but how the weapon is used. "Slashing" with an axe is like swinging a hockey stick like a baseball bat.

Slashing - most of the momentum is put into the middle of the blade, the 'sweet spot'. That's pretty much where a metal blade would be able to dish out the most damage. With a short sword, you don't really have a sweet spot. Try swinging a knife, then swing a sword. It's an entirely different concept. Not a cleaver/machete. Cleavers are designed for slashing motion.

Bludgeoning - there is basically a big load of mass on one tip, and your arm is swinging it in the form to deal the most force (torque?) on that heavy bit, thus dealing the strongest impact. Doesn't really matter whether it's blunt or has a spike on it.

Chopping - Somewhere of a cross between slashing and bludgeoning, but different. You have a mass on the tip. You try to swing the mass, but the point where you want it to hit is in the middle of the axe blade. A board with a nail can be considered chopping, but only if you're trying to hit specifically with that nail. You do not "chop" with a sword, unless it's one of those egyptian style swords, or possibly something like a military scythe.

Piercing - there is a sharp point. You put all the strength in your body and focus it on that point. It's a bit iffy that daggers and spears are both "piercing". But IRL, if you want to hurt someone with a knife, you definitely need to poke someone in the same form you'd use a spear. Foot to shoulder to forward thrust. Minimal waist movement.


Also, note that weapon skills aren't entirely about hitting. It's also about recovering from a miss or hit, balancing your body to suit the weapon style. Different weapons require different movement.

This.

You can also actually use all of the weapons differently than their designated type. It's called an emote.

Code Select Expand

>em thrusts his sword at ~man suddenly!
>kill man

You slash the tall, muscular man's neck, dealing horrendous damage.

You can be creative and emote things besides kicking when using the kick command. There's no reason why the same can't apply to the basic combat echo.

[BuNutzCola]

I may be wrong, but pretty sure at some point the imms said specifically emoting an elbow to the face and then using the kick command was frowned upon.

[Yam]

I may be wrong, but pretty sure at some point the imms said specifically emoting an elbow to the face and then using the kick command was frowned upon.

I seem to recall the opposite.

[FuSoYa]

I may be wrong, but pretty sure at some point the imms said specifically emoting an elbow to the face and then using the kick command was frowned upon.

I seem to recall the opposite.

I seem to recall what Cola said...

::shrugs::

Brandon

[BuNutzCola]

Quote from: "Help kick"/Olgaris

Skill Kick                                                         (Combat)

   This skill will cause you to attempt to kick the named person, or the
person you are currently fighting if no argument is given.  Damage done by
a successful kick is dependent upon your strength.

Syntax:
   kick (target)

Example:
   > kick gith

Delay:
   after



Kick is a kick. Don't use kick and emote something totally different than a kick. While I think a strike with an appended emote would be a great addition, or replacement for kick, I don't think kick should be used with emotes about throwing punches etc.

[Yam]

Oh. You're right. I just read that thread.

Silly. I think I'm going to still use kick as strike. Sorry Olgaris/Qetesh.

[hyzhenhok]

I may be wrong, but pretty sure at some point the imms said specifically emoting an elbow to the face and then using the kick command was frowned upon.

Given that it happens all of the time and I've never seen any criticism, I'm going to assume it's safe enough to do so. We RP with the code, but sometimes we also must RP around the code. Combat is one of the situations where no matter how detailed the coded simulation is, there will be gaps. If I can't emote trying to smack someone with my shield and then use >kick, I'm going to be discouraged from anything of the sort at all, and it will suck the enjoyment out of combat for me.

Edit: but this is a derail belongs in Roleplaying Discussion, so I'll refrain from further discussion.

[RogueGunslinger]

Most piercing weapons also serve as skinning tools as well. So I'd imagine there's -some- sort of edge on them.

I've never understood this. Doesn't make sense. I also can't imagine a scrab's claw being sharp enough to skin properly.

Edit: Then again, I can't even imagine what a scrab looks like. I've read the descs of many, but just can't put the pieces togethor.

[Synthesis]

Most piercing weapons also serve as skinning tools as well. So I'd imagine there's -some- sort of edge on them.

I've never understood this. Doesn't make sense. I also can't imagine a scrab's claw being sharp enough to skin properly.

Edit: Then again, I can't even imagine what a scrab looks like. I've read the descs of many, but just can't put the pieces togethor.

The reason is this:  most daggers and longknives are stabbing weapons.  Realistically, you should be able to skin with most daggers and longknives.  Instead of coding it so that only "daggers" and "longknives" can be used to skin, they coded it such that only "stabbing weapons," a subset of "piercing weapons," can be used to skin.  The vast majority of "stabbing weapons" are in fact things you could probably skin with.  I'm sure somewhere along the line, someone made the decision that correcting the code, and then going back in to add "skinning item" flags to every suitable object in the game would a) be a colossal pain in the ass and b) not worth the effort.

[Qzzrbl]

And realistically, if a longknife or dagger has an edge sharp enough to skin a mek, I should be able to effectively compensate it's use as a slashing weapon if I'm good enough with slashing weapons.

[Lizzie]

Not even close...because when you're skinning something, you are not *slicing* it. You are jabbing the tip of a blade into an already existing wound..and using the blade itself..not a cutting edge..as leverage to peel back the hide. When you're removing bone, you're not really using the knife at all. You're cracking the bone free, much like you would when you're seperating a roast chicken into parts. If you actually had to use an edged knife to cut a bone, you'd need ONLY a serrated edge..which would rule out every skinning knife in the game and most other weapons as well.

Remember we're not dealing with Henckels or Ginsu here. We're dealing with very crude tools made out of no-tech raw materials. You aren't using the edge of a paring knife to do delicate work on a skin. You're ripping, yanking, tearing, an untanned hide free of a dead, but raw carcass. If you've ever skinned an elk, you'd know this is not something you'd be able to do with ANY knife easily, but a whole lot easier if you could poke the blade under the skin first. And -that- requires a piercing weapon with a pointy sharp tip.

[Qzzrbl]

Not even close...because when you're skinning something, you are not *slicing* it. You are jabbing the tip of a blade into an already existing wound..and using the blade itself..not a cutting edge..as leverage to peel back the hide. When you're removing bone, you're not really using the knife at all. You're cracking the bone free, much like you would when you're seperating a roast chicken into parts. If you actually had to use an edged knife to cut a bone, you'd need ONLY a serrated edge..which would rule out every skinning knife in the game and most other weapons as well.

Remember we're not dealing with Henckels or Ginsu here. We're dealing with very crude tools made out of no-tech raw materials. You aren't using the edge of a paring knife to do delicate work on a skin. You're ripping, yanking, tearing, an untanned hide free of a dead, but raw carcass. If you've ever skinned an elk, you'd know this is not something you'd be able to do with ANY knife easily, but a whole lot easier if you could poke the blade under the skin first. And -that- requires a piercing weapon with a pointy sharp tip.

I dunno, I've tried skinning deer and hogs with dull knives before, and those weren't happy times.

I just couldn't imagine those skinning knives IG being described as having sharp edges not actually having sharp edges.

That would just be confusing.

[Lizzie]

They're sharp, compared with other weapons in the world of Zalanthas. Obsidian knives would be probably the sharpest blade in the world..and a serrated obsidian knife would be the most likely choice for a skinning job, because obsidian, while very sharp, is also glass and shatters easily and trying to cut a hide off flesh would probably crack it on the first try. Serration is a support of sorts. Much like corrugated cardboard is sturdier than the same width and thickness of uncorrugated cardboard.

Other than obsidian and glass, there really aren't any *readily available, useful, efficient, and affordable* weapons that would be even close to comparable to "sharp" in the real world, as far as edges of blades go. ANYTHING can be made pointy. Not anything can hold a sharp edge.

[Gunnerblaster]

This just sounds like a way to complicate a very simple game mechanic.

I would not want to see people trying to do anything with a bludgeoning weapon besides bludgeoning with it. Longswords should stay as 'slashing' type weapons.

I say just throw in more 'flip' able weapons.

There is already a 'flip <item>' syntax that works on specific objects. Just expand the range of 'flipable' items to long enough knives and/or daggers. Let people slash/pierce with rapiers or whatever. I think the weapons in armageddon are made with a very crude and specific use. Longswords aren't typically made to pierce and jab like spears.

I would like the ability to coded flip a weapon during combat, though. As it is, you can only flip the weapon out of combat. Sure - Give us a penalty to the next round of combat if we decide to flip the weapon but atleast give us the option to.

[Cutthroat]

I say just throw in more 'flip' able weapons.

There is already a 'flip <item>' syntax that works on specific objects. Just expand the range of 'flipable' items to long enough knives and/or daggers. Let people slash/pierce with rapiers or whatever. I think the weapons in armageddon are made with a very crude and specific use. Longswords aren't typically made to pierce and jab like spears.

I would like the ability to coded flip a weapon during combat, though. As it is, you can only flip the weapon out of combat. Sure - Give us a penalty to the next round of combat if we decide to flip the weapon but atleast give us the option to.

I agree with this. There are weapons that could probably be flippable but aren't in the current system. Also note that you can actually flip a flippable weapon in combat using the 'use' command instead of 'flip'.