Cotton picking discussion

[spawnloser]

I hate to say it, Nyr, but once again this is an example of the North getting stuff (include Luir's in this) and Allanak getting the boot - to which I was referring in my vitriolic post on Luir's and their Kadian shop.

Oh, and Allanak doesn't have salting?  Mining?  Down, boy, down.

[Nyr]

Oh, ok.


--container buying options on some merchants in Allanak
--Red's Retreat
--extra building work on making Allanak more 3D
--jars of kohl for the perfume seller in Allanak
--fixed tattoo scripts (on both custom tattooists)
--Senate Meeting
--water templar script (granted, in planning stages, but still a change to make)
--new "nicer" (heh) wildlife around Allanak

Yeah, nothing's been done in Allanak and nothing is going to be done in Allanak at all.

[Riev]

In honesty, besides clay digging (which most apparently did not know about), Tuluk really didn't have a method of monetary gain beyond crafting and selling to various shops (Which can be VERY lucrative if you know what you are doing).

Allanak and its Salting alone could support someone forever. On a day of spam-foraging on an old character, I spent the entire day, slept the night in a tent, and spent a couple hours  in the morning, and made over 200 'sid. Without a GOOD forage skill either. Plus, Jal never says "We have enough, go away".

[Semper]

I ask you - do more players play Tuluk because the culture is so rip-roaring awesome or because there are more coded opportunities.

People play in Tuluk for both the culture and the environment. If there was little or no culture to go off of, no matter how much coded benefits there were, eventually the novelty would die off. If the culture is the greatest, but there's very little in means to survive, the same applies, and players would play elsewhere.

On the flip side, Allanak has its own culture and unique (coded) environment (compared to other places). The only detriment to Allanak with improvements in other areas of the game are that the PCs start drifting away, but this is inevitable over the passage of time. Once the novelty of playing in Tuluk wears off, people'll come back to Allanak. For the culture. For the rp. For the environment.

The only way coded perks in one area could make the other areas of the game boring is when all the players flock to that area. After a time they'll go back to the other areas of the game that interest them. It happens. But aside from that, not much else changes with the rest of the game areas because of some improvements here and there. Rather, I'd think it improves the game overall.

And as Nyr mentioned, Allanak isn't forgotten. If Allanak is getting boring, it's mostly because the preferences with the player is changing. Complaints or gripes, whether voiced are not, do affect perception. Look on the bright side of things. It'll improve your day, too. 

And I should note: I keep hearing about how Tuluk's culture is messed up and how it's illogical that it could spring up after complete destruction. Although it would be nice if things worked out perfectly, it's a game in the end. Forget the past, and just go with how things have turned out, rather than dwelling on the good ol' times, or what could have been. You miss out on a lot by doing that. Take Tuluk for what it's turned out to be. It isn't all that bad.

[SMuz]

--water templar script (granted, in planning stages, but still a change to make)

IMHO, Allanak's the better of the two city-states. Mining and foraging salt alone's already good enough. Tuluk is generally safer, Allanak is more brutal on all sides, from hunting to scavenging, but it pays better. Nothing at all wrong with Allanak; there's plenty of culture and money-making opportunities. You can easily make daily 150 obsidian mining, 250 glass mining, and 200 salt foraging - and that includes the costs of stabling, water, and the salt sack. If you're a good fighter and skinner, you could even add a bit on top of that.

Tuluk is still the forgotten one, IMHO. Pfft.. culture indeed.

[pitchfork]

Sorry to interrupt, but I have something to say about, you know, the actual topic here..

Despite having read the topic and being not completely stupid or a newbie, I still managed to get stuck in the fields.  My only experience with a "gathering quest" in Arm is salt foraging in Allanak, so I assumed that a specific cotton-carrying container would be required, and that such an object would be sold by one of the NPCs related to the task.  By the time I discovered that I was being naive, it was too late.  Since I had read Vanth's post, at least I understood what had happened, but right now it is far too easy for anyone who isn't informed to wind up in an extremely frustrating and inexplicable situation.  Thanks again to the Imm who kindly punted my PC over the fence.   

A few ideas:

1. Put the NPCs outside the fields, or otherwise make it clear in game that you are about to enter the cotton fields and won't be able to leave again until certain criteria are met.

and/or

2. Deny entry to anyone who doesn't have an appropriate container in their inventory.

and/or

3. Put an NPC who sells cotton-carrying containers inside the fields.

and

4. Put an OOC note in the first room description, or a link to 'help cotton picking' or something similar - as in tailors' or in the stables.  I was able to work out fairly quickly that I needed to 'forage cotton' but that isn't going to be obvious to a new player.  It should also be made clear what sort of containers are appropriate for this task.  If any container will do, that should be stated explicitly.

Oh, and I absolutely love this addition.   

[Mood]

3. Put an NPC who sells cotton-carrying containers inside the fields.

The best solution, imo. Perhaps they could loan them out, and collect them back from you when you leave the fields.

[WarriorPoet]

Maybe I'm all alone here, but I get a little sad when yet another way to amass insane amounts of coin is opened up to commoners.

I like options and new features, don't get me wrong, this is cool if only for the sake of being new and cool as fuck, but yet another sid/salt option doesn't make me glow inside. Oh no.

[My 2 sids]

It's not simply a way to accumulate sid though -- it's a way for a PC (independent PC) to accumulate sid.   

It's a slow conversion to player-driven economy and groups and plots (Arm.2 anyone)?

[staggerlee]

Maybe I'm all alone here, but I get a little sad when yet another way to amass insane amounts of coin is opened up to commoners.

I like options and new features, don't get me wrong, this is cool if only for the sake of being new and cool as fuck, but yet another sid/salt option doesn't make me glow inside. Oh no.

It's not simply a way to accumulate sid though -- it's a way for a PC (independent PC) to accumulate sid.   

It's a slow conversion to player-driven economy and groups and plots (Arm.2 anyone)?

This kind of thing would seem to call for a hike in clan salaries.
It's awful unfortunate when the elite guard of lady so and so is making less money than the local escru farmer.

[WarriorPoet]

It's awful unfortunate when the elite guard of lady so and so is making less money than the local escru farmer.

This. But I don't like the idea of just increasing clan salaries. I WOULD LOVE to see the Immortals fall like a ton of shit on people for running hog-ass wild with glasshacker, forage skill, or whatever else those barbarous bastards in Tuluk use. Maybe the Templarate could, ah,appropriate the 10k sid in that unaffiliated, upjumped commoner's Nenyuk account for the greater good. Public works. Silks and whores. Things the city NEEDS.

[DustMight]

Actually, maybe that's the crux of my issue with this change - another way for indies to be successful indies and that hurts clans, the backbone of Arm.1.

The more I think about it - that could be it.

Spam foraging aside (someone mentioned making tons on salt this way) which is, IMO, bad RP to spam anything, making things "easy" for indies is against what drew me to Armageddon in the first place. 

The more I think about it - it is why I prefer Allanak to Tuluk.

I recently had an IC discussion with a clan member who said he socked nearly 4k away as an indy before clanning.  This shouldn't really be possible and if it was that easy for him, giving more opportunity for this is not fixing what's broken.

Then again, as someone pointed out - maybe the Imms aren't fixing what's broken but testing ideas for Arm2.

Either way - easy is cheesy and the auto-filling barrels of clans, the laid-back ease of getting food and water in Tuluk (and the coins for it without much risk) make the city lame.

And Nyr, you've a point - things have been done to 'nak - but not like Tuluk.

Where are the culture docs?  Where are the advanced art and poetry?  And Salt grebbing might be great - if your one day warrior doesn't run into a tough scrab or a salt worm or gith or spiders - no such risk for cotton grebbers.

Actually - to keep the post topical - I'll ask a direction question to staff - when you put in a job like cotton grebbing do you also add extra risk factors?  Will it be possible for me to rob the grebbers?  Will it be possible they will be attacked by raptors or other aggressive creatures?

What is the risk for the benefit?  If none, then the change is a little lop-sided, I think.

Edit to Add:
I will make the concession that the new IC rules about over-hunting and harvesting in the Tuluk area are AWESOME.  That is a great way to make things harder and have it appear organic.

Edit to Add (part 2):
That I don't mean to come off as mean-spirited or unappreciated - but obviously I'm just a concerned player who likes the game and envisions it one way and that may well not be the way the staff is taking the development.

[staggerlee]

It's awful unfortunate when the elite guard of lady so and so is making less money than the local escru farmer.

This. But I don't like the idea of just increasing clan salaries. I WOULD LOVE to see the Immortals fall like a ton of shit on people for running hog-ass wild with glasshacker, forage skill, or whatever else those barbarous bastards in Tuluk use. Maybe the Templarate could, ah,appropriate the 10k sid in that unaffiliated, upjumped commoner's Nenyuk account for the greater good. Public works. Silks and whores. Things the city NEEDS.

Taxing the holy hell out of commoners would be fun.

Joe the sid hacker brings in 10k worth of sid every day. At the gates they search him for spice, check his load, smile and tax him 5k. Sure he can work hard, but half of what he makes is going to go towards making the the nobles and templars richer, keeping him just as poor as ever in relative terms.   Everyone profits.

The same tax could be applied to finished goods sold by the unclanned, protecting the profits of the gmh.

...and then there'd be room for smugglers and even a black market, giving an economy and purpose to certain shady areas of the game.

[DustMight]

Taxing is a great idea - especially if it goes into the PC templar and nobility's hands so that it moves around the economy.

I remember once playing an Oashi noble that wanted to have all foreigners who carry weapons taxed.  Seemed like a good idea.  The Senate, at the time, didn't agree so much.  Alas.

[Nyr]

And Nyr, you've a point - things have been done to 'nak - but not like Tuluk.

Where are the culture docs?  Where are the advanced art and poetry? 

Different cultures--and culture stuff should be brought up in its own thread, really.  There isn't as much documented for Allanaki culture (the arts and the like) but that doesn't mean there can't be, or that existing practices don't exist within southern clans.  Approach a staff member for a southern clan, see if one of them wants to tackle some cultural documentation expansion.  Part of the reason Tuluk has had an expansion of their documentation was due to its confusing nature at times.

And Salt grebbing might be great - if your one day warrior doesn't run into a tough scrab or a salt worm or gith or spiders - no such risk for cotton grebbers.

Actually - to keep the post topical - I'll ask a direction question to staff - when you put in a job like cotton grebbing do you also add extra risk factors?

You're in a cotton field.  You might get Krath struck.  You might not get the cotton harvested.  You might not have time to deal

Will it be possible for me to rob the grebbers?

It's possible to rob anyone anywhere if you go about it the right way.

Will it be possible they will be attacked by raptors or other aggressive creatures?

Inside the walls of a city?  It's doubtful.

What is the risk for the benefit?  If none, then the change is a little lop-sided, I think.

Risk vs. benefit isn't the only thing to look at--it's merely one of the factors.  There are pros and cons.  Pros:  cotton picking is a safe job.  Clay foraging is a safe job.  As such, the cons are that they produce relatively low profits (though in the case of cotton picking, you can also craft the cotton bolls all the way into clothing, which can sell for higher profits--which requires more time and crafting to get to that point).  If someone can stay alive in the harsh environment around Red Storm while spice sifting, or grebbing for salt or obsidian, they can get higher profits.

We try to monitor automated systems like this, and try to keep track of people that use them unrealistically.

Edit to Add (part 2):
That I don't mean to come off as mean-spirited or unappreciated - but obviously I'm just a concerned player who likes the game and envisions it one way and that may well not be the way the staff is taking the development.

Understood.

[Doppelganger]

Maybe I'm all alone here, but I get a little sad when yet another way to amass insane amounts of coin is opened up to commoners.

Anything that "pays somewhat better than clay digging" might be imperfect, but it is far from insanity in my book.
And even if cotton fields are just another salt flats, I could be careless, because when you have one source of unrealistic income, you might as well have hundred of them, it does not change much.

They have their ideas to repair economy and we have been warned beforehand. We could see these fields comig from few years ago, so the sooner they start in-field testing, the better.

Besides, I don't want, but I have to admit that cotton picking is a better idea than dung sweeping.

[DustMight]

For me the big difference between cotton picking and salt grebbing is that grebbing salt puts you at risk for npc critters while cotton grebbing does not.  This is a problem, in my mind. 

[Yokunama]

For me the big difference between cotton picking and salt grebbing is that grebbing salt puts you at risk for npc critters while cotton grebbing does not.  This is a problem, in my mind. 

Its not. You can make an awful lot salt mining.

[Doppelganger]

For me the big difference between cotton picking and salt grebbing is that grebbing salt puts you at risk for npc critters while cotton grebbing does not.  This is a problem, in my mind. 

Agreed, actually the first urge I had was to pick some reasonable fellow, like pitchfork, and go check his pockets IG to see if he makes reasonable amount of money or not. And I might have some complications with that due to hightened security and current skillset.

But then again, in a more serious tone, it's not different to pits in the middle of commons, neither in terms of security nor in terms of income.
The only ones who look really affected are clothmakers. And I am all for giving them silk worms and flax farms at the price of removing NPC fabric dealers completely.

[DustMight]

Yes, but you can DIE salt grebbing.  Not so within the walls of Tuluk (I understand this is where the cotton fields are?).

[tortall]

Yes, but you can DIE salt grebbing.  Not so within the walls of Tuluk (I understand this is where the cotton fields are?).

With salt grebbing you can make nearly 200 a day. With cotton picking, from my understanding, you might make 20 a day. I think that extra 180 covers the danger, which is the point.

[Vanth]

I set one of the NPCs in the fields to sell a cheap bag, based on player feedback.

[pitchfork]

I set one of the NPCs in the fields to sell a cheap bag, based on player feedback.

<3

Also, to you guys who are really upset about the idea of people getting rich off of cotton picking, please note

Cotton picking pays somewhat better than clay digging (I will probably be adjusting the pay for clay digging soon, so they'll be about equal).

So it pays somewhat better than the current rate of clay digging.  And if Vanth's thread asking for clay digging feedback is any indication (I wouldn't know, since I was among those who never realised that you could dig for clay), clay digging is just about the last thing you'd ever want to do if you want to make coin.  The last thing.  Ever.  And this pays somewhat better?  I suspect that this is more intended as a way for crafters to get ahold of raw cotton, than for anyone to get rich.  I mean, come on.  Your hypothetical twink who wants to get rich quick - is he really going to have the patience to spend an IG day out there in the cotton fields and get a handful of sid when he could be pulling in a couple small mining sid or glass?

[Twilight]

I like that this has been added.  I like the direction staff is taking for adding in sid making opportunities.

Although, a part of me does fondly remember killing gith captains for spice knots to sell in Tuluk.

[Vanth]

I also updated the NPCs with talk scripts.