Sticking to Documentation

[Semper]

I was going to derail a recent thread for this due to some posts. However, it's likely a better idea to start a new topic.

It's been discussed before, and you can likely find some threads referring to this, but it seems the issue keeps resurfacing occasionally. What I'm talking about is the apparent straying by the player base (and clans?) from game documentation.

What is being observed by the players that is causing this idea to surface again? (No specifics.) If there is an issue at hand:

How can we improve the situation? What should be done about it?

What can staff do about it?

How might we prevent it from happening in the future?


My own opinion:
Most of what's happening about straying from the documentation, IMO, is due to how things are being run IG. There's a so-called alliance between North and South, so you can't openly be hostile against each other. Those foreigners that come into the city for any duration of time are usually wearing GMH attire and colors, giving them some amount of protection. No matter how much your character should hate someone in their own clan that's a foreigner, being able to work with them is almost a necessity if you want to be on good terms with the bosses. The gemmers in 'nak are almost always wearing Oashi (which is the premier House) colors, or have friends sitting in high places with influence that can throw you in the arena for messing with them.

These are just some examples. Not perfect, but they get the idea across, I hope. Despite these circumstances, how can we promote adherence to the documentation? While the exceptions are certainly possible and allowable, how do we prevent -everyone- from being the exception to the case?

[Thunkkin]

Having started playing last summer and thus falling into this dreaded "newbies not learning to be gritty enough" zone, I'll share my experience.

North/south relations:
- As you say, playing a southerner, most of the northies I encountered were GMH.  Let's see now ... why do I want to piss off a GMH?  Is biting my tongue and thinking mean thoughts worth not getting harassed by my local branch of the GMH?  Is expressing my true grit worth a GMH suddenly not doing business with me?  Or, in my particular case, why would I be rude to this GMH member and his/her entourage when, in fact, I've been desperate for their services because the Nak members of their clan have all gone AWOL or don't seem to want my money?  Rant: I spent 3 RL months trying to spend several large on a GMH purchase.  Not waiting for the order.  Just trying to MAKE the order.  You can bet your ass I was polite when some northies in that clan finally showed up.  So if that ruined someone's immersion, boo-f'ing-hoo.  Maybe they wouldn't be so judgmental if they considered other people's IC reasons for acting certain ways.

Gemmers:
- I've said this elsewhere.  When your boss hires gemmers and makes you work alongside gemmers, you learn to shut your mouth.  When most gemmers have powerful allies/backing, you learn to shut your mouth.  You want grit?  How's "keep you f'ing mouth shut or this gemmer is going to get you ganked" for grit?  Sounds gritty enough to me.  The truth of the matter is that in most "gritty" situations, the poor, ignorant, and down-trodden keep their mouths shut when their small lives are on the line.  You want joe-peasant to be "gritty" and insult his noble lord's employees and friends?

Overall:
Many players are -in- GMHs/noble house clans.  Being rude to northies/gemmers is likely to earn your house/clan enemies which is likely to earn you a quick death or an ass-whipping from your boss.  D-elfs aren't supposed to go causing the type of trouble then brings down templars wiping out their entire tribe, right?  So why the hell should joe-commoner go insulting northern GMHs or powerful gemmers and bringing down the wrath of enemies/his employers on himself?

And finally ... if people can't handle quiet, subtle hate and prejudice, then they're just going to have to be the insulting change that they want to see.  I've played a character that was actually pretty bigoted.  But I've also played a character whose only priority was himself - his only priority was MONEY.  You don't earn money by insulting paying customers.  So you know - again, maybe people have IC reasons for their behavior?  All the power structures in the game push characters toward keeping their mouths shut.  The dregs of totalitarian societies really aren't known for standing up in public and insulting powerful individuals.

That's my experience so far.  Right or wrong.

[Synthesis]

You can't really enforce harshness, because people will always gravitate toward the roles that keep their character alive.  That's just basic human nature.  The only time harshness really enters the picture is when a) players' hands are forced by Imm-instigated plots, b) when one player/group of players has an OVERWHELMING advantage, or c) when someone rolls up a character with the express intent of being a bastard.

So you see certain player-starved d-elf tribes getting picked on, because everyone knows OOCly they don't have the player numbers to mount an effective retaliation. (And at the same time, players don't gravitate to these tribes, because they know it's an exercise in futility.)  Same goes with city elves and player-run raider groups: even if people started them, without Staff support (or the support of a high-karma or special-apped role to even the odds), they would be crushed in short order by overwhelming odds.  At the same time, (experienced) people don't waste their time apping these roles, because again...it's an exercise in futility.

If you increased the conflict between the North and the South by some sort of Staff mandate, you wouldn't see more barfights in Allanak:  you would see fewer Tulukis in Allanak, and vice versa.  The outsiders that did show up would either be a) certified bad-asses who could whip all comers or b) take care of their shit and leave promptly, without stopping to talk to anyone.

If you enforced the "hate 'gickers" sentiment, you wouldn't see more spite toward 'gickers in game...you would see fewer gemmers leaving their clan compounds or their temples. (You would also see more 'gickers burninating noobs in the wastes, because they wouldn't have ever had the chance to develop a more amiable sort of relationship with them.)

Basically, any way you cut it, people are going to tend to play it cool, rather than harsh.  That's the way I see it, anyway.

Edited to add:  And that's not even considering all the perfectly plausible IC considerations Thunkkin mentioned, above.

[Qzzrbl]

Is expressing my true grit worth a GMH suddenly not doing business with me?

If you're a shit-snorting, dirty, drunken commoner....

Yeah, kinda.

I thought conflict was usually interesting and fun?

At least it always has been when I've experienced it....

::Edited to add::

Now that I think about it, if everyone got into the true harsh spirit of Zalanthas, and started acting appropriately for commoners who can barely pronounce "manners" let alone know the word's definition, what would and GMH do, deny service do every dickhead they cross?

They'll never make money that way.

[RogueGunslinger]

All I'm seeing are excuses.(in thunnkin's post) The nobles/templars/gmh family members should -expect- all the trash talk. It's part of their society.

[Thunkkin]

All I'm seeing are excuses.(in thunnkin's post) The nobles/templars/gmh family members should -expect- all the trash talk. It's part of their society.

Then maybe the problem isn't new players?

[Thunkkin]

If you're a shit-snorting, dirty, drunken commoner....

What percentage of the player-base plays this concept?
Should we make non-shitheads a karma-only option?

[RogueGunslinger]

You can't really enforce harshness, because people will always gravitate toward the roles that keep their character alive.  That's just basic human nature.  The only time harshness really enters the picture is when a) players' hands are forced by Imm-instigated plots, b) when one player/group of players has an OVERWHELMING advantage, or c) when someone rolls up a character with the express intent of being a bastard.

So you see certain player-starved d-elf tribes getting picked on, because everyone knows OOCly they don't have the player numbers to mount an effective retaliation. (And at the same time, players don't gravitate to these tribes, because they know it's an exercise in futility.)  Same goes with city elves and player-run raider groups: even if people started them, without Staff support (or the support of a high-karma or special-apped role to even the odds), they would be crushed in short order by overwhelming odds.  At the same time, (experienced) people don't waste their time apping these roles, because again...it's an exercise in futility.

If you increased the conflict between the North and the South by some sort of Staff mandate, you wouldn't see more barfights in Allanak:  you would see fewer Tulukis in Allanak, and vice versa.  The outsiders that did show up would either be a) certified bad-asses who could whip all comers or b) take care of their shit and leave promptly, without stopping to talk to anyone.

If you enforced the "hate 'gickers" sentiment, you wouldn't see more spite toward 'gickers in game...you would see fewer gemmers leaving their clan compounds or their temples. (You would also see more 'gickers burninating noobs in the wastes, because they wouldn't have ever had the chance to develop a more amiable sort of relationship with them.)

Basically, any way you cut it, people are going to tend to play it cool, rather than harsh.  That's the way I see it, anyway.

Edited to add:  And that's not even considering all the perfectly plausible IC considerations Thunkkin mentioned, above.

This makes perfect sense. And Thunnkin, no one said it was just new player causing the problem.

Edited to add: Hey Thunnkin, you should go check out FantasyWriters new thread, it's cool!

[SMuz]

Well, there's not much 'documentation' to speak of and most of it is vague and open to interpretation. Some clan docs seem to be a bit out of date, although still correct. There's not much documentation that says that you have to hate 'rinthis, foreigners (unless you're a Tuluki), 'gickers, elves, and breeds. It's especially vague for a 'gicker or say, a great 'rinthi elf warrior, because most of them have powerful friends.

A lot of the social stigmas seems to have been player created, not exactly documentation. But I would like to see positions of power enforced a little more, especially in Allanak. Like how people should shun it if anyone was talking shit to someone above their level of power, just like some RL cultures would shun it if you talk badly about an elder brother or a senior citizen.

Anyway, to support what Thunkkin said, yeah, you have to be nice to people for a perfectly IC reason. It's not just the newbies doing it; I've seen templars jump to the defense of a gemmer at times. And I have seen some people insulting northies and people outside their social circle - they get killed very, very quickly. On my defense, my char's punched an unaffiliated 'gicker (ungemmed) a few times and made fun of a masked northie at the Gaj, so it doesn't happen all the time.

[Qzzrbl]

If you're a shit-snorting, dirty, drunken commoner....

What percentage of the player-base plays this concept?
Should we make non-shitheads a karma-only option?

-shrug-

I'd be down for that, actually....

I find the problem is more people going from "shithead" to downright murderous asshole.

You know, those people who hire five assassins to go after you because you exercised the brawl code on them in the Gaj.

[Thunkkin]

Edited to add: Hey Thunnkin, you should go check out FantasyWriters new thread, it's cool!

Huh.  If I'm coming off as overly rude, I'm not meaning to be.  I'll step back and stop posting for a bit, just in case.

[RogueGunslinger]

Well, there's not much 'documentation' to speak of and most of it is vague and open to interpretation. Some clan docs seem to be a bit out of date, although still correct. There's not much documentation that says that you have to hate 'rinthis, foreigners (unless you're a Tuluki), 'gickers, elves, and breeds. It's especially vague for a 'gicker or say, a great 'rinthi elf warrior, because most of them have powerful friends.

This is just flat out wrong, and I'm too lazy to pull up all the doc's that prove it.

Edited to add: Hey Thunnkin, you should go check out FantasyWriters new thread, it's cool!

Huh.  If I'm coming off as overly rude, I'm not meaning to be.  I'll step back and stop posting for a bit, just in case.

I thought I sensed snarkiness, you seemed to be getting defensive, and I'd just like to point out that this isn't just a problem with new players.

[Thunkkin]

I thought I sensed snarkiness, you seemed to be getting defensive, and I'd just like to point out that this isn't just a problem with new players.

Yeah, that line didn't actually come out right ... I'm not being defensive about new players per se.  Though I don't think some of the IC reasoning I wrote above was just "excuses" as if by OOC motivations I'm setting about breaking the docs.  As a new player, I'm responding to the realities of a totalitarian society in which the powers that be are dictating my actions.

Does this mean that it's an imm issue too?  Should imms be making clans respect this more?  Because a new player is fairly helpless in the face of this if they want to join a clan and succeed in the IC social aspects of the game.  Being an insulting drunk is fun, but, I don't want to play that as my only concept.

[Fathi]

Is expressing my true grit worth a GMH suddenly not doing business with me?

If you're a shit-snorting, dirty, drunken commoner....

Yeah, kinda.

I don't think even a shit-snorting, dirty, drunken commoner would piss all over an out-of-town agent from a merchant house they were trying to do business with but had been unable to.

Maybe it's just me, but just because Zalanthan commoners aren't terribly cultured and couldn't give a flying fart about propriety doesn't mean they'd actively sabotage their own interests for the sake of being a jackass to a foreigner.

We have NPC shopkeepers that are elves and half-elves, but people still regularly do business with them.

I think your average Zalanthan would be savvy enough to express distaste or hide distaste in the interest of getting what they want. I see self-interest and self-preservation being two of the most driving forces behind Zalanthans' day to day lives and mindsets, and I think that being loudly, obviously, consistently prejudiced toward a group has its place, but not when the Zalanthan in question is trying to benefit from said group.

[RogueGunslinger]

God being prejudiced is so much easier in The Arm. We need some more damn militia players.

[Jingo]

I happen to like gritty. As in "unflinching realism". I have a feeling that some posters are interpereting that word differently. Gritty does not necessarily mean harsh, abusive or unfriendly. This isn't a critique, I'm just saying.

Anyways, I think there are at least two problems with the interactions that Rogue is bringing up.

#1 is that everyone ig seems to interperet insults as threats. And insults to their minions as threats to them. It's kind of lame when we see an entire clan rallying around someone and getting another player killed for calling them a wench behind their back.

#2 Arn't people supposed to be afraid of magickers? At least uneasy around them? Christ. What the hell is that bynner doing insulting that Krathi? How does he know he's not going to wake up in the middle of the night with his pallet on fire? I think the operative word should not be hate, but fear and unease.

[Delstro]

It is best to scream this. Cover your eyes.
STOP OVERREACTING.

Gritty, subtle, harsh, hatred, etc all have degrees.
You don't need to go extreme to extreme. Last time I said I ain't saying sorry, they killed me for being a dumb fuck. How about you get over yourself. You aren't an important commoner.  Important Commoner. Irony? Uh.. Yeh. Land a punch to the drunk fuck to prove you are badass and move on. Next time he gets mouthy? Punch him in the face again. 

If you are working for House Oashi Magickerus, don't be a bitch, magickers are still scary. Emote not looking at them, emote ignoring them, tell them not to talk to you. Have some rotting fruit? Toss it their way and tell them they can have it. Be creative, don't shut up and not do anything.

The house merchant is from the other state? Ask them, "Hey bub, you got a southern cousin around today? Nah? Fuck, well, -maybe- you can do it."

Be creative, don't go from ignoring them to killing them back to ingoring them. Those extremes ruin the game for others. Don't do it. This is a peeve of mine.

[Qzzrbl]

It is best to scream this. Cover your eyes.
STOP OVERREACTING.

Gritty, subtle, harsh, hatred, etc all have degrees.
You don't need to go extreme to extreme. Last time I said I ain't saying sorry, they killed me for being a dumb fuck. How about you get over yourself. You aren't an important commoner.  Important Commoner. Irony? Uh.. Yeh. Land a punch to the drunk fuck to prove you are badass and move on. Next time he gets mouthy? Punch him in the face again. 

If you are working for House Oashi Magickerus, don't be a bitch, magickers are still scary. Emote not looking at them, emote ignoring them, tell them not to talk to you. Have some rotting fruit? Toss it their way and tell them they can have it. Be creative, don't shut up and not do anything.

The house merchant is from the other state? Ask them, "Hey bub, you got a southern cousin around today? Nah? Fuck, well, -maybe- you can do it."

Be creative, don't go from ignoring them to killing them back to ingoring them. Those extremes ruin the game for others. Don't do it. This is a peeve of mine.

<3

[staggerlee]

I have a crazy suggestion:

The majority of players follow the documentation to some extent. And here's the revolutionary part: we all read the documentation differently.

We get these threads, where someone says "Hey! Why isn't anyone following the docs!" And everyone else jumps in and says "Hey yeah! I've noticed too!" No two people ever read something the same way, we filter it through our own experiences, preconceptions, ideas and sense of style.  

Reading is a personal experience, and it's never the same twice. Everyone takes it with their own twist. And you know what? I wouldn't have it any other way. That's where the creativity, imagination and diversity in the game comes from.

The problem is being blown wildly out of proportion because we, for the most part, are inflexible. Without ooc communication, we have no way to know what other players are thinking - rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt, we get our hackles up.  Old players might be the worst for it, your preconceptions are getting really concrete. New players are still more flexible.

[Ampere]

Foreign GMH members? TRADERS ARE FOREIGN, RETARD!

'Gicks?  OH LOOK, SOME STRANGER'S WALKING AROUND WITH A LOADED MAC-10!

Of course you'll hold these people in contempt, but unless you've a seriously compelling reason, I find it unlikely you'll be openly hostile. What I find abrasive are two dimensional caricatures.

[Thunkkin]

I have a crazy suggestion:

The majority of players follow the documentation to some extent. And here's the revolutionary part: we all read the documentation differently.

We get these threads, where someone says "Hey! Why isn't anyone following the docs!" And everyone else jumps in and says "Hey yeah! I've noticed too!" No two people ever read something the same way, we filter it through our own experiences, preconceptions, ideas and sense of style.  

Reading is a personal experience, and it's never the same twice. Everyone takes it with their own twist. And you know what? I wouldn't have it any other way. That's where the creativity, imagination and diversity in the game comes from.

The problem is being blown wildly out of proportion because we, for the most part, are inflexible. Without ooc communication, we have no way to know what other players are thinking - rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt, we get our hackles up.  Old players might be the worst for it, your preconceptions are getting really concrete. New players are still more flexible.

<3

Linguistic turn for the win.

Ok, now I'm really taking that posting break.

[X-D]

I find that Staggerlee is correct.

What I notice alot is people that pick and choose which parts of the docs they are going to follow...and which they are not. And though this is a mild peeve of mine, I just roll with it...unless it is simply too far out, like somebody picked a single line to play to and forgot all the rest.

As to hate and such, come on, I will never understand why so many people think that the way they think hate can be shown is the ONLY way to do it.

My current PC hates pretty much everybody. But most people will never know that, why, because he is not stupid, and even people you despise might become useful someday.

I do think though that most the players and staff, new and old need to go back over the RP docs and such and refresh ourselves. You would be amazed on what you might have missed or forgotten or even see in a new way. I've been playing for what, 17, 18 years now and I'm going through them again.

[Yokunama]

It wouldn't hurt to go over the documentation every three or four months to refresh yourself.

[FantasyWriter]

It wouldn't hurt to go over the documentation every three or four months to refresh yourself.

Especially clan/guild/race docs.

[My 2 sids]

Here's what I see:

In different threads many players and staff have explained that their fundamental understanding is that PCs reflect the "exceptions" of society.  And I wonder if that type of thinking sometimes doesn't morph into "My PC is exempted from ALL society rules"  The idea that no documentation actually applies to PCs at all -- that it's all ment for the vnpcs/ npcs



Also, sometimes players play as players. 

Sometimes the 50 day old 'rinither breed magicker becomes "shocked" that a 1 day old human 'naki would dare to "sneer"; when clearly the documentation suggests that's appropriate!   And other PCs follow suit simply because they know 50-day old PC longer.
Or maybe that 100 day old Bynner gets more respect from PCs than the new noble, simply because the PC bynner has been in game longer.