City-elf problems and possible solutions

[Good Gortok]

Wow,

It's ridiculously amazing how many people are complaining that elves aren't enough like humans in stats and social standing.

Don't know what you're basing that argument on. As for stats, there have been suggestions of making low strength less crippling and high agility more of an advantage - not that elves should have stats closer to humans. And being closer to humans in regard to social standing? I have never heard anyone suggest it.

Elven stats rock. Period. I said it. So it's true. All of you who complain otherwise need a lesson in agility and speed. I can harass you. I can make you miserable. I can make you wish you had never entered the fucking rinth, or been born. And that's before I begin to hurt you, leave you for dead.. and most of all..rob you silly.

I fail to see how your examples are in any way related to stats, nor how they are exclusive to elves. City-elf stats are the worst of any playable race and hardly anybody plays them. The reason for the latter is not that they rock, however mysterious that may seem.

City elves who are successful tend to stay out of taverns in the commoners quarter unless business dictates. There are exceptions, but honestly the real problem most people seem to have is a lack of direction when playing a Celf. As a former imm and longtime storyteller within the rinth I can attest that there have been several dynamic elves of all concepts that were great elves. When the players have a few others to play with in the rinth things are fine.. soon as things get sparse a vast majority get bored and head southside to hobknob with the socialites. Celf is not a role for everyone. Do not misconstrue and assume that I believe that Celves playing southside are playing badly, it's just that most seem to ignore the fact that the majority  of elves are stinking pieces of rinth filth and people have a GOOD reason to be suspicious of them at ALL times.

Try considering it a challenge having EVERYONE hate you. Remember high school? It's not that hard to visualize if you happen to have been an outcast. (Which I am sssuming some of you were)

Also, racism is real, deal with it. It's like... part of the fun of playing a Celf.

The problem is that your proposed manner of playing an elf leads to a severe shortage of interaction opportunities for most players. 90% of roleplay in this game takes place in taverns or clan compounds. You can walk the streets of Allanak or the alleys of the Labyrinth for hours and never meet a soul. The social stigma towards elves often takes on an almost OOC edge where other players will not only have their characters shun you (which they are expected to) but also refrain from trying to roleplay with you. In my experience playing a c-elf, it is rare that non-elves take the trouble to bother you and much more common that they ignore you unless you do something that literally forces a response.

Celves definately DO NOT have any sort of templar-like abilities within the rinth. The clanned elves have the same benifits any other clan has. Clanmembers tend to favor their clanmates over the intruders. Though as long-time players of the rinth know, even that is not always the case. Ever been beaten down by your own clan because you were in the wrong place in the wrong time?

The thing that Synthesis refers to is the fact that almost all NPCs of each respective side of the 'rinth are in the same clan and will all assist a player with the same clanning, making attacking such a player artificially dangerous as NPCs from potentially four adjacent rooms charge in to assist them. The problem is the same for west-side humanoids, and in fact it is possible for a character with the right clanning to get attacked by an NPC and see that same NPC's followers turn on their own leader and assist the PC. However, the elf-side NPCs tend to be much more densely packed and are more often hidden, leading to a potentially higher frequency of such mishaps.

[Jingo]

City elves who are successful tend to stay out of taverns in the commoners quarter unless business dictates. There are exceptions, but honestly the real problem most people seem to have is a lack of direction when playing a Celf. As a former imm and longtime storyteller within the rinth I can attest that there have been several dynamic elves of all concepts that were great elves. When the players have a few others to play with in the rinth things are fine.. soon as things get sparse a vast majority get bored and head southside to hobknob with the socialites. Celf is not a role for everyone. Do not misconstrue and assume that I believe that Celves playing southside are playing badly, it's just that most seem to ignore the fact that the majority  of elves are stinking pieces of rinth filth and people have a GOOD reason to be suspicious of them at ALL times.

See, this is part of the problem. I don't want to play a 'rinthi/thief pc. Even though in Allanak, there is probably no other way to play a c-elf.

If elves are just a ghettoized minority without any influence beyond criminal activity; it should say so in the documentation.

But I do want to say that I'm seeing some neat things happen with the new Tuluki c-elf tribe.

[Synthesis]

Bhag, don't get the wrong idea:  all of my most utterly bad-ass 'rinthers have been city elves.

That being said, I think everything else I've said remains consistent with that.

[spicemustflow]

Celves definately DO NOT have any sort of templar-like abilities within the rinth.

What, then, is the reason for closing rinthi tribes?

Elves as we know it will not exist in ArmII

Exactly. More reason to use the race to its full potential. City bound families of proud paranoiacs who don't understand property laws (and that is only a surface of the elven mindset) won't be there in arm2 (to my knowledge). Akai Sjir are a great thing for the north, and unless I'm mistaken it would take a lot less work to open an existing tribe than it took to create Akai from scratch. And, seeing that you said that they wouldn't be overpovered, why not?

I don't care about stats or not being able to ranger around. GIVE US THE TRIBES!!!! :peasant uprising:

[spawnloser]

The problem is that your proposed manner of playing an elf leads to a severe shortage of interaction opportunities for most players. 90% of roleplay in this game takes place in taverns or clan compounds. You can walk the streets of Allanak or the alleys of the Labyrinth for hours and never meet a soul. The social stigma towards elves often takes on an almost OOC edge where other players will not only have their characters shun you (which they are expected to) but also refrain from trying to roleplay with you. In my experience playing a c-elf, it is rare that non-elves take the trouble to bother you and much more common that they ignore you unless you do something that literally forces a response.

If you can't have fun playing a character that is hated, don't play one.  There are plenty of places for c.elves to go socialize in a bar-type situation... southside is not one of those.  Deal with it.

[Thunkkin]

If you can't have fun playing a character that is hated, don't play one.  There are plenty of places for c.elves to go socialize in a bar-type situation... southside is not one of those.  Deal with it.

Cuz that's really what he said.

Let me quote and bold something for you since you obviously missed it in your hurry to dump on another player and show off how tough you are:

other players will not only have their characters shun you (which they are expected to) but also refrain from trying to roleplay with you.

[Jingo]

The problem is that your proposed manner of playing an elf leads to a severe shortage of interaction opportunities for most players. 90% of roleplay in this game takes place in taverns or clan compounds. You can walk the streets of Allanak or the alleys of the Labyrinth for hours and never meet a soul. The social stigma towards elves often takes on an almost OOC edge where other players will not only have their characters shun you (which they are expected to) but also refrain from trying to roleplay with you. In my experience playing a c-elf, it is rare that non-elves take the trouble to bother you and much more common that they ignore you unless you do something that literally forces a response.

If you can't have fun playing a character that is hated, don't play one.  There are plenty of places for c.elves to go socialize in a bar-type situation... southside is not one of those.  Deal with it.

Nope.

C.elves are welcome in the commoner taverns. There might be a dozen elves hanging out virtually in The Gaj or Red's at any given time. This has been my understanding since I've been playing. And until the imms tell me that elves are bounced out at the door, that's the way it's gonna be.

There is one tavern that's an exception. So if you don't like elves in your gith-eye soup, then eat it at The Trader's.

[Dracul]

just throwing in my two cents on what still seems to be alive as a thread...

I think celves are fine. Armageddon isn't about balance anyways.

[Good Gortok]

If you can't have fun playing a character that is hated, don't play one.  There are plenty of places for c.elves to go socialize in a bar-type situation... southside is not one of those.  Deal with it.

Do you mean to imply that the entire city-elf sphere of roleplay - the second most populous race of Zalanthas - should be confined to the Labyrinth? That all those NPCs, vNPCs and otherwise described elven inhabitants of other areas of any given settlement somehow do not exist? Are you perhaps one of the players who refrain from roleplaying with elven characters because they do not fit into one of the moulds that suit the criteria from which you choose who qualifies to roleplay with you? I have to wonder.

Armageddon isn't about balance anyways.

And here we have the #1 excuse used to defend the innumerable problems that tarnish the quality, consistency or accessibility of various aspects of roleplay on Armageddon. It never fails to make it into any and every discussion that calls for a change of some kind. Whether the problem begins in the code, the documentation, the "balance" or another less tangible element of the game, in the end it tends to result in what can only be described as a lessening of the spirit of the game. In this case it is the blatantly obvious fact that something prevents most players from desiring to play city elves, evident in the fact that there are usually almost none of them. How is this not a problem that can and should be addressed? How is it fine? How can you possibly argue that it is somehow an intended and properly functioning trait of this game?

[audrey]

This thread makes me sad. City elves don't suck. Half of all my characters were c-elves. Fun! Agility also doesn't suck. Agility so doesn't suck. Three characters with exceptional/v.high agility, poor/average strength. All kicked ass from day 1 :> I like everything about c-elves. Please don't change them. Powerful enough even with current stats.

[spicemustflow]

Armageddon isn't about balance anyways.

Really? You don't think that karma system that prevents half of the playerbase running around with defilers has anything to do with balance? 'Deal with it' comments have their place in certain discussions, this isn't one of them.

This thread makes me sad. City elves don't suck. Half of all my characters were c-elves. Fun! Agility also doesn't suck. Agility so doesn't suck. Three characters with exceptional/v.high agility, poor/average strength. All kicked ass from day 1 :> I like everything about c-elves. Please don't change them. Powerful enough even with current stats.

We're not complaining about stats here.

[spawnloser]

The problem is that you are ALL defining interaction as social interaction.

[spicemustflow]

People here complain about the lack of social interaction, not interaction with the environment.

[spawnloser]

You can interact with other PCs without it being social interaction.

[Synthesis]

You can interact with other PCs without it being social interaction.

Griefing ftw.

[Salt Merchant]

One thing that discourages me from playing city elves is memories of how blantant the persecution has been. For a while, it seemed the Allanaki nobility had openly declared war on them. Even recently, I've seen a city elf emerge from the dormitory in the Gaj in his newbie gear and get hauled off almost immediately by the militia.

Maybe my viewpoint is askew, but I'm not willing to go through several short-lived characters in order to learn a new set of rules for survival right now.

[hyzhenhok]

Even recently, I've seen a city elf emerge from the dormitory in the Gaj in his newbie gear and get hauled off almost immediately by the militia.

Duh. The Gaj is not a safe place for shady, low-life scum to hang out. Look at that silky, jade-embroidered merchant who's sitting at the vomit-stained bar the wrong way? The highly-esteemed AoD sergeant at the soggy, piss-dripping table will get his trusty private, who's sitting right next to you in his pristine armor drinking the delectable piss-for-alcohol, and teach you a lesson. And if a templar or noble peeks their head in because they have a craving for a snort of kank-flies, or have bought a new pair of silk pants that simply must have some shit stains on them before they're fashionable, you're screwed.

[Salt Merchant]

The Gaj is not a safe place for shady, low-life scum to hang out.

Seems so, if you're an elf. The poor fecker apparently couldn't even start a new character and get out the door before being taken to jail. That seems excessive to me.

[audrey]

We're not complaining about stats here.

I read the first post. Yes, people were complaining about stats.

I like the social interaction when playing elves. Sometimes, when I feel like the real world loves me too much, I log into my elf. And that makes me happier. Many of my elves were killed by militia by staying in-character, but I like that The elven mentality is fun. Yeah, they make enemies with everyone and die fast, and that's my niche in this game. I mean, I don't play dwarves because dwarves are always too focused on just one goal, but some people like having an excuse to focus on something. But I like elves, because they're arrogant, they love stealing things, they're close friends with other tribe members, and OOCly, there's always an excuse to start trouble, by scamming someone. They also have the best skills and stats for mischief.

So don't change them. My first char was an elf and I've always been very happy with them. If you don't like the way elves interact and can't find a way to interact without griefing, then don't play elves. It's not like someone is forcing you to play them.

[Thunkkin]

they're close friends with other tribe members

So, you aren't referring to c-elves in Allanak?

[brytta.leofa]

Sometimes city elf wisdom > city elf player's wisdom.  Not always or necessarily even often.  But sometimes.

We need more slick-talking Sand-Tonic salesmen.  (And, of course, more credulous consumers.)

[spicemustflow]

We're not complaining about stats here.

But I like elves, because they're arrogant, they love stealing things, they're close friends with other tribe members

Yeah. See the problem?

[Nile]

[/quote]
Many of my elves were killed by militia by staying in-character, but I like that
[/quote]

Same. Not militia though...But I've had good c-elf characters die even though I knew it was a trap/they were going to kill me whatever because it was IC to keep trying this scam. I don't mind.

[Eloran]

Sometimes city elf wisdom > city elf player's wisdom.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm not done.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Thank you for the laugh, Brytta.

[ibusoe]

One thing that discourages me from playing city elves is memories of how blantant the persecution has been. For a while, it seemed the Allanaki nobility had openly declared war on them. Even recently, I've seen a city elf emerge from the dormitory in the Gaj in his newbie gear and get hauled off almost immediately by the militia.

Maybe my viewpoint is askew, but I'm not willing to go through several short-lived characters in order to learn a new set of rules for survival right now.

Yeah, you're right.  And it bellies realism.  What I think that players don't take into account is that your average elf is two or three notches below the average employed human on the social ladder.  In essence, an elf is likely beneath your notice.

After all, it's not like the CEO of my real life company comes down from the penthouse to pick an argument with some janitors in the basement.  I'd be seriously surprised if he could tell you how many janitors work for his company or what their names are.