City-elf problems and possible solutions

[Eloran]

This is already in place. At least in quite a few areas that I've experienced.

In my experience this has not been the case. Granted, the last c.elf I played was some time ago. It's good to hear though.

[ibusoe]

I'd like to start a discussion on what might make the city-elf race more appealing to the playerbase. For as long as I've played here, this race has been lacking in all aspects of the game, and it's hardly any surprise that they're largely unplayed. I believe the main thee reasons are these:


> C-elf stats suck. They're not good for anything except pickpockets and perhaps magickers. They would also make good merchants in terms of the code, but noone in their right mind would attempt this. I wouldn't even make a c-elf burglar because their abysmal strength makes it hard to carry much without suffering coded penalties. Pickpocket is perhaps the least played guild short of sorcerer and psionicist (not even sure about that), so this isn't much of a saving grace. For anything related to combat, c-elf stats are prohibitively low, most importantly the strength which leaves them far, far behind other races. Ever since the "defense fix" which drastically reduced the effectiveness of agility as a defensive boost, c-elf warriors and assassins have been all but unplayable for anyone marginally concerned with their character's coded prowess. I believe this to be the biggest cause for the lack of c-elf PCs.

Possible solutions:
- Strength really, really needs to be balanced out for the non-mul/giant races. There's a staggering disparity between the upper and lower range of strength, to the point where such a difference will put two characters apart in terms of fighting prowess in ways that skill can never make up for. Most importantly, low strength needs to be less of a disadvantage in armed combat. Consistently doing no more than nicks and grazes with an obsidian sword just because your strength is below average is not only unrealistic but also a huge playability issue.
- Agility's contribution to defense should be increased. This is not only to make up for the offensive disadvantage of having low strength, but so that high strength doesn't indirectly give a bigger defensive boost than agility due to one's ability to wear proper armor. A c-elf generally can't wear any armor, or nothing heavier than light leathers, so when their superhuman agility does very little to help them defend themselves, it's a balance issue that affects the game negatively. Agility's current effects on defensive skills is nothing that just a day or two of moderate sparring won't even out, and the difference between light leather and heavy chitin armor is infinitely greater than the difference between good and exceptional agility.


> C-elves don't ride, but unlike their desert cousins, they lack the ability that makes up for this. This makes no sense, I don't see any reason why a race would limit themselves so much out of pride in an ability that they don't have, and it's a significant problem. Being a c-elf means you pretty much can't leave the gates of whatever settlement you're bound to, and this alone deters a lot of players. It also makes c-elf characters even less useful to the select few organizations that might consider hiring one.

Possible solutions:
- Rather than seeing c-elves suddenly riding around, I would prefer them to have some ability to travel the desert without a mount. Give them stamina losses that closely resemble the desert-elf race and leave their stamina pool as it is. This would let them get from Allanak to Red Storm or maybe Luir's without great difficulty, but not allow them to run to Tuluk and back on a whim.
- Simply let c-elves ride. I'm not too fond of this one, but it's borderline retarded that they refuse to ride out of pride in an ability that they don't have.


> There's no c-elf culture to speak of. Short of the rinth's east-side section, which has never been active enough to suffice, there's just no place in the world where a c-elves won't be among people who hate them. Surely such a numerous race would have carved out a niche for themselves in each larger center of population? There's a couple of coded tribes in one area of the game, but they're not readily accessible and they're strictly non-lawful in nature.

Possible solutions:
- Make smaller elven sectors in each city-state. Tuluk has a shred of this, but obviously not enough to build any kind of playerbase around.
- Make coded, not-necessarily-criminal c-elf clans where they can have some purpose and recognition.
- Flesh out the rinth more so that there isn't so little to do without direct player interaction which has always been sporadic at best.


Discuss.

I agree with the original post.  It's a very gutsy article to write, and it's 95% spot on.

He did miss one important point -- that PCs really go out on a limb to fuck with city-elves in a way that they never would a desert-elf or a half-breed.  Mostly, this is due to bad role-playing and it's difficult get past. 

[a strange shadow]

If city-elves aren't broken, then why are they so under-represented in the PC population?

The amount of denial in this thread is mind-boggling.

I'll take a stab at this: because it requires smarts to keep one alive, and a willingness to sacrifice combat badassery.

When combined with the inability to easily integrate with the majority of the playerbase, you have a lonely role.

I don't think they are broken, per se, but due to the stringent documentation, they are cut off from the playerbase in many ways. They are often forced to assume a far more parasitical role than is fun to play out for the long-term.

In the second go-round of Armageddon, I hope to see more "I dislike you, but I also need you for this" conflict and less "I dislike you, and have no reason to be forced to interact with you anyway" - one of those brings the playerbase into friction, the other divides and separates, which is not much fun and beats the purpose of an interactive world.

One thing I like about the elven tribe in Tuluk is that it seems to tackle some of the above problems.

[Salt Merchant]

The problem I have is when I see city elves acting like humans, and/or people treating them like humans.  If this is happening because the elf is trying to pull a scam of some kind, or the human is trying to "elf" the elf, that's all fine and good.  It's just really disappointing to see a city elf blindly giving its trust over to someone not of his tribe, or a human blindly giving trust to a city elf.  Elves are all thieving scum, and even when they're being nice to you, it's because they're up to something.  I would love to see more of that prejudice running rampant, and more elves swindling the hell out of those stupid roundears.

If elves are all thieving scum, and this is public knowledge, how would they ever be able to swindle anyone? People just wouldn't deal with them.

[Salt Merchant]

Part of the problem with city elves is that they seem to be played in a sequence of lonely individual elves. If there were a few banding together, they could enter the Gaj and not have to put up with all the shit, for example.

I still remember the old elven market of Allanak along with Jindo's Gambling House and the Elf's Pocket Tavern. That was a seriously elven place, and going into it could be a bit risky. City elves could use a haven like that, but I guess it's been more or less moved into the 'rinth.

[FantasyWriter]

If city-elves aren't broken, then why are they so under-represented in the PC population?

Lack of coded tribes (which has changed of late).  Take a ride up to Tuluk and you will see plenty of c-elves running around.

And their stats don't suck, their stats suck for someone who wants to play WTFpwning combative PCs.
Their stats are great for the following 0 karma guilds.
   Warrior
   Assassin     
   Burglar    
   Merchant    
   Pickpocket    
   Ranger (iffy)   

[Armaddict]

If city-elves aren't broken, then why are they so under-represented in the PC population?

The amount of denial in this thread is mind-boggling.

It is a truth on Armageddon that not every player is cut out to play every race.  Some people just can't handle dwarves (I am one of these).  Other's can't handle elven lifestyle, either city or wild.  Still others hate the stupidity they are forced to roleplay with half-giants, so they avoid them.

Well now, that was easy.

That reply that was posted by Shaloonsh before Synthesis's question and very rude assertion.

Now, that reply is the quote that I think people very much need to realize.  If you don't find a race enjoyable, it is -not- an issue of the race being broken, or poorly made, or 'under-powered'.  It is a facet of the world that you, obviously, do not find as particularly interesting.  I've said it pretty often when these types of threads come up, and one or two of the staff have agreed, though I don't recall if they made it an 'official' position.

Races and classes are -not- 'balanced'.  They aren't supposed to be.  They aren't supposed to be on equal ground in every single encounter you can come up with, or in every single piece of employment, or in every single opportunity.  But what they -do- function as is a -role- to be played in this -role-playing game-.

I say again.  City elves...have always been absolutely fine for me.  More than fine, even, if you follow the very available guides and documentation on what, exactly, you should be looking for out of them.  Even the small amount of city-elf tribes coded in is...not...an overwhelming issue for me, at all.  It's easy to go around unless you're trying to make some overwhelmingly popular character who REALLY, ACTUALLY, likes everyone they pretend to, and then yeah...it might be a barrier.  But you shouldn't have made that character, either, unless you acknowledge how messed up that was going to end up.

[Synthesis]

The only 2 kudos I've ever gotten were for playing city-elves.

I still think they're hopelessly borked, in a number of ways.

[jcljules]

...
Rinthi city elf tribes at this time are closed, and will likely remain so for good reason.  We do highly endorse the use of vtribes to help flesh out the world, however.  Vtribes, both c-and-d-elf have been long used to improve the atmosphere of the game.
...

I was under the impression that you couldn't create d-elf v-tribes--has that changed?

[Delstro]

IT is only off limits when you want coded stuff from the Imms.

[FantasyWriter]

...
Rinthi city elf tribes at this time are closed, and will likely remain so for good reason. 
...

Is this something we have any hope of getting an explanation on?

[Synthesis]

...
Rinthi city elf tribes at this time are closed, and will likely remain so for good reason. 
...

Is this something we have any hope of getting an explanation on?

Because if you're in a coded c-elf tribe in the 'rinth, you basically have Templar-like ability to PK with the use of your clan NPCs.

[Armaddict]

Because if you're in a coded c-elf tribe in the 'rinth, you basically have Templar-like ability to PK with the use of your clan NPCs.

I wouldn't call it templar-like, and if that's the actual reason, then some people are absolutely horrible at following clan documentation.

[WarriorPoet]

IT is only off limits when you want coded stuff from the Imms.

I don't think this is correct. I believe D-elves must pick one of the coded, documented tribes. Anything else must be special apped. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

And as for the C-elf thing, I don't think Synth's reason is a 'good reason' at all. Just change that particular ability and allow PC's into the coded tribes without the benefits of NPC pals. I would love to play more Celves but rarely do because there's no tribal or familiy support, which is very important, for me at least, in any elven role.

[Delstro]

D-elves, last I head, DO have to pick a coded tribe. C-elves don't have that obligation. However, neither can have a new coded tribe input because of their efforts to make a tribe non-virtual.

[Shalooonsh]

...
Rinthi city elf tribes at this time are closed, and will likely remain so for good reason.  We do highly endorse the use of vtribes to help flesh out the world, however.  Vtribes, both c-and-d-elf have been long used to improve the atmosphere of the game.
...

I was under the impression that you couldn't create d-elf v-tribes--has that changed?

Sorry, this was a mis-statement by myself.  There are v-tribes in place which can be used, for example, Sand Jakhals and Seven Spears.  You can not, however, make up "Delerak's Elf Tribe Of Uber Doom" which hates all templars, goes into a blood rage at the sight of silk, and worships the void, fire, and wind.  

This restriction is in place to prevent a sudden cropping of 200 desert elf vtribes which leave the built and steady real tribes empty of membership because people have a concept that just slightly doesn't fit.

[AmandaGreathouse]

If city-elves aren't broken, then why are they so under-represented in the PC population?

Lack of coded tribes (which has changed of late).  Take a ride up to Tuluk and you will see plenty of c-elves running around.

And their stats don't suck, their stats suck for someone who wants to play WTFpwning combative PCs.
Their stats are great for the following 0 karma guilds.
   Warrior
   Assassin     
   Burglar    
   Merchant    
   Pickpocket    
   Ranger (iffy)   

Spot on.

I personally just don't enjoy playing them because I don't enjoy playing thieving/scamming characters. Same reason I don't generally play burglars or assassins.

I don't think the race is broken, but I do think that the relative lonliness of the role of an elf, in general, as opposed to just about any other race but a mul, is a large part of what is offputting to people who don't play them.

It's not a very social role (depending), the documents make for a race whose mindset can be very restrictive, and, although the stats that they have seem to fit their role in the world quite well, the strength penalty is a huge detractor. Though I think with some people, myself included, it has less to do with combat and more to do with how much you can carry.

[Armaddict]

Whoever crossed out the warrior guild there hasn't been exposed to the 30+ day elven warrior, apparently.  Which isn't bad, seeing how there are few who play it for that class, but uh...whoever decided it's horrible in comparison to a human warrior or dwarf warrior doesn't know jack.

[a strange shadow]

Claims that elves can't be badass warriors, please meet Pendeh.

Thank you, I know it hurts, it hurts so bad. Come again to be debunked another day.

No, an elf isn't going to dish out damage like a mul, but they can be unstoppable dervishes of doom. I've seen it.

[Jingo]

lol.

Stats arn't the problem.

And c-elves can't even be rangers.

And yeah. Pendeh.

And actually, I wan't to modify this a bit to say that it's almost impossible to play an c-elf warrior unless you just want to guard the Kuraci taverns. Or do the 'rinth/undertuluk I guess.

That's the way I see it.

[Synthesis]

Nobody's been exposed to a 30+ day city-elf warrior because there's only been like 2, ever.

Huh, I wonder why? Shitty HP + shitty armor (lack of strength) + shitty damage FTL, maybe?

Yeah, a city-elf can be good if you roll bizawesomeomgwtf stats...but unless you go around suiciding all your shitty rolls, that's unlikely to happen.  Personally, I probably wouldn't even blame someone for suiciding every city-elf they get that rolls lower than vgood/vgood.  That's about the minimum playable if you -ever- expect to get in a fight.

[Jingo]

Nobody's been exposed to a 30+ day city-elf warrior because there's only been like 2, ever.

Huh, I wonder why? Shitty HP + shitty armor (lack of strength) + shitty damage FTL, maybe?

Yeah, a city-elf can be good if you roll bizawesomeomgwtf stats...but unless you go around suiciding all your shitty rolls, that's unlikely to happen.  Personally, I probably wouldn't even blame someone for suiciding every city-elf they get that rolls lower than vgood/vgood.  That's about the minimum playable if you -ever- expect to get in a fight.

My own D-Elf warrior had a.average/average. He was invincible at about 15 days, just like every other 15 day warrior.

The problem with being a c-elf warrior is that you can't go anywhere to actually fight.

[Armaddict]

Nobody's been exposed to a 30+ day city-elf warrior because there's only been like 2, ever.

Your memory serves you poorly, or you haven't paid much attention until this discussion came up.

Huh, I wonder why? Shitty HP + shitty armor (lack of strength) + shitty damage FTL, maybe?

Quite a statement there, particularly when just thrown out.  No, you won't see an elf wearing platemail.  That doesn't make them shitty, and actually kinda fits the style they go for and become said dervish of doom.

Yeah, a city-elf can be good if you roll bizawesomeomgwtf stats...but unless you go around suiciding all your shitty rolls, that's unlikely to happen.  Personally, I probably wouldn't even blame someone for suiciding every city-elf they get that rolls lower than vgood/vgood.  That's about the minimum playable if you -ever- expect to get in a fight.

The more you contribute to these threads recently, the more it becomes apparent that you get most of your 'data' from characters with less than two days of playing time on them.

[Armaddict]

The problem with being a c-elf warrior is that you can't go anywhere to actually fight.

There's actually a clan that is very present everywhere where city elf warriors fit in quite nicely.  That aside...I hear most people like playing independents anyway.

[Jingo]

The problem with being a c-elf warrior is that you can't go anywhere to actually fight.

There's actually a clan that is very present everywhere where city elf warriors fit in quite nicely.  That aside...I hear most people like playing independents anyway.

Well yeah. That's what I mean't when I said this:

And actually, I wan't to modify this a bit to say that it's almost impossible to play an c-elf warrior unless you just want to guard the Kuraci taverns. Or do the 'rinth/undertuluk.