Armageddon with a graphical engine instead of MUD - Interested?

[Gimfalisette]

To be honest, I don't want crappy, generic, wooden fantasy graphics on top of the infinitely-technicolor, gritty-realistic text world of ARM. Until we can get a fully CGI world that's capable of rendering ARM with the kind of beauty we already put into it through our words...then, no. I don't want to see EQ2-ARM, or WoW-ARM, or NWN-ARM, or SWG-ARM, or LoTR-ARM, or Warhammer-ARM...none of those graphical environments is up to the task, pretty though they may be in and of themselves.

The only advantage I can see graphics having, really, is that they allow methods of visually estimating distance and navigating. That would be helpful to me, because I have no sense of direction inside a text medium. But oh well, I cope.

[manonfire]

Crysis-Arm

[Mechafish]

Just cope with it, you will do fine.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I always wanted to make a Steampunk mod for NWN. NWN really does have a nice, easy to use interface for world-building, and it can do a LOT of things.

It can't do Armageddon.

Loving the idea behind your work, though.

Good luck.

[gobbledygookie]

It's hard to be immersed in something when your inputs regarding it are telling you two different things.  The text may say "emote lazily leans against the wall, watching the tavern patrons with an slight smirk" but the NWN engine shows my character standing rigidly kind of near the wall and staring ahead blankly.  I would much rather spend more of my mental energy imagining something to fill in the blanks than trying to ignore what my eyes see plainly.

That's how graphics detract from text.

Oh please, it's called suspense of belief. If you can do it with text you can do with graphics, let's not get silly here. If it bothers you, that's your problem, because it doesn't bother/detract me and the people I role-play with.

...then why would you want to introduce visuals into the equation?  If they are always inferior and needing to be further refined, overridden with descriptions, or if people are always going to consider text first -- what do you glean from the wooden and lifeless world of the visual medium when considering a home for the best RP experience possible?

Because to me, and I'm speaking only for myself, it makes the experience much more intense, real and immersive. It makes me lose myself in the fantasy even more, and I love seeing visuals as I role-play. Fact is, the visuals are about 95-99% the reality (even 100% at times). It's GOOD ENOUGH, even if they are "always inferior to text", it's not worth ditching it altogether just because they're not 100% - they'll never be a game where there are 100%, and if there will be, it won't be in our decade or the next. Hence we use text to supplement the little details and stuff like that.

Also, LoD, you quoted me saying "I don't see visuals providing me with any benefit over my imagination." - I never said it.


Well, anyway, I hope you'll find a better RPG-builder than NWN, even though obviously some members of your community won't appreciate visuals regardless of whatever engine you're using, evidently. If you ever do find, I'll probably already be using it, but for now NWN is the best we got, and personally, I love its graphics.

-Lester

[Archbaron]

I'm sensing bitterness now.

Don't mind us if we're overly aggressive, but to be fair, you did come strolling into a two-decade old RPI MUD and just laid this down on us. If we snarl and spit, it's because your approach isn't working. You can't convince us of the things you're attempting to because your points are flimsy at best.

[staggerlee]

I'm sensing bitterness now.

Don't mind us if we're overly aggressive, but to be fair, you did come strolling into a two-decade old RPI MUD and just laid this down on us. If we snarl and spit, it's because your approach isn't working. You can't convince us of the things you're attempting to because your points are flimsy at best.

The attitude on both sides has been a bit childish and dismissive.

I would've been interested in an actual discussion of the merits of text versus graphics, it's something I've put a lot of thought into, especially as mmorpgs become more advanced and common.

I think analogies can be drawn compellingly to the case of television versus books.  Accessibility is the largest issue, and the next is likely that the visual display forces a static interpretation on you, where as text is more subjective.   

In the case of most muds, especially H&S environments, I suspect that it's the accessibility that's an issue more than the subjectivity of text. It's just too difficult, time consuming and expensive to render this kind of diversity and scope graphically with current technology.

However. Even if we had full virtual reality world building tools I'd be wary of changing mediums. I think the issue of subjectivity versus static imagery would still argue in favor of text, at least in certain applications. As long as Armageddon is less of a game than a tool for collective storytelling and roleplaying the choice of medium is excruciatingly important.

[Mechafish]

I think analogies can be drawn compellingly to the case of television versus books.  Accessibility is the largest issue, and the next is likely that the visual display forces a static interpretation on you, where as text is more subjective.

True again. Managa is still subjective because you still can make stories about the characters.

[Gimfalisette]

As long as Armageddon is less of a game than a tool for collective storytelling and roleplaying the choice of medium is excruciatingly important.

Exactly. ARM is not an "RPG."

[Mechafish]

I think MUD's differ from MMORPG in many ways, not just with graphics.  In MUD's you can create your own character and play as him/her, in MMORPG's you cannot.  If the staff change the game into a graphical engine, then it would be MMOPRG.  Because most of the characters will look the same and that is BORING!  I would just let my mind create the characters from text.

[Marauder Moe]

It's hard to be immersed in something when your inputs regarding it are telling you two different things.  The text may say "emote lazily leans against the wall, watching the tavern patrons with an slight smirk" but the NWN engine shows my character standing rigidly kind of near the wall and staring ahead blankly.  I would much rather spend more of my mental energy imagining something to fill in the blanks than trying to ignore what my eyes see plainly.

That's how graphics detract from text.

Oh please, it's called suspense of belief. If you can do it with text you can do with graphics, let's not get silly here. If it bothers you, that's your problem, because it doesn't bother/detract me and the people I role-play with.

Dude... you're on our board.  WTF?!

You come here trying to recruit our players, which is a big faux pas in the MUD community.

YOU SPELL THE NAME OF OUR GAME WRONG.

You act as though we're all too dumb to have ever considered "what if Armageddon had graphics", and we need a brilliant genius like you to show us the light.

You question whether or not something is wrong with us because we're not bowled over by your revolutionary graphics concept.

And now you basically tell me to shut up after I explained why I feel graphics would detract from our game.

In my opinion, you're in troll territory now.

[gobbledygookie]

Archbaron - My "approach" isn't working? - I simply laid out the offer as it is, there is no "approach". It's factual talk.

With respect to "bitterness" or "aggressiveness", or even "childish" and "dismissive" someone suggested - that doesn't matter to me, I just want to see what comes out at the end of this discussion - I'm certainly learning new things about the Armaggedon community which I've had keen interest in - I thought you'll love the idea, guess you didn't. *shrugs* kind of a drag, but let's not blow it out porportions. Many of the things you're saying show me how misinformed you are. For instance, judging by Mechafish's latest post who is way off btw, I am led to believe many of you know very little of what is NWN and what you can do with it, or otherwise you jump to conclusions.

Let me clear it. Mechafish - You can write character description in NWN on top of your chosen headset, you simply pick what closest to your character and then supplement it with description.

And yes, I did think you'll love it, it being revolutionary, putting your awesome concept of heavy role-play and permadeath with graphics, and thinking you'd like to give it a shot.  Again, guess I was wrong

Marauder Moe - I didn't tell you to "shut up", but explained there is "suspense of belief" in graphics, and that if you can do it with text you can do it with graphics.

[Qzzrbl]

Can't we all just get along?

[Archbaron]

Archbaron - My "approach" isn't working? - I simply laid out the offer as it is, there is no "approach". It's factual talk.

With respect to "bitterness" or "aggressiveness", or even "childish" and "dismissive" someone suggested - that doesn't matter to me, I just want to see what comes out at the end of this discussion - I'm certainly learning new things about the Armaggedon community which I've had keen interest in - I thought you'll love the idea, guess you didn't. *shrugs* kind of a drag, but let's not blow it out porportions. Many of the things you're saying show me how misinformed you are. For instance, judging by Mechafish's latest post who is way off btw, I am led to believe many of you know very little of what is NWN and what you can do with it, or otherwise you jump to conclusions.

Let me clear it. Mechafish - You can write character description in NWN on top of your chosen headset, you simply pick what closest to your character and then supplement it with description.

And yes, I did think you'll love it, it being revolutionary, putting your awesome concept of heavy role-play and permadeath with graphics, and thinking you'd like to give it a shot.  Again, guess I was wrong

Marauder Moe - I didn't tell you to "shut up", but explained there is "suspense of belief" in graphics, and that if you can do it with text you can do it with graphics.

Yes, your "approach" to convince us that Armageddon could benefit from graphics. Quite frankly, I'm sick of you dissecting our posts and pulling things out of context in an attempt get an upper hand in the situation.

Marauder Moe has a point: you've basically rolled into our stomping grounds and broke the unwritten rules of internet etiquette in an attempt to convince us that some RPG cut-and-paste-look-what-I-made-mom game editor is a our future to people who like to perfect prose and create thick plots that are as possible as the depths of our imaginations thanks to TEXT, not GRAPHICS.

[Archbaron]

Can't we all just get along?

I'm all for getting along, but once the attempted rebuttals of myself and my friends here on the GDB are swept under the rug, I try to defend what we're saying.

[Marauder Moe]

I take offense to your attitude, not your ideas.

Oh please,

Snarky.

it's called suspense of belief.

Both condescending and idiotic at the same time.  The term you're groping for is "suspension of disbelief".

If you can do it with text you can do with graphics, let's not get silly here.

Yes, explain to me more about how silly I am.  That'll win me over.

If it bothers you, that's your problem,

It doesn't bother me and there is no problem because Armageddon does not have graphics!

because it doesn't bother/detract me and the people I role-play with.

Go build your game for them then.

[Qzzrbl]

Rule 14.

Come on people.

[Thunkkin]

And yes, I did think you'll love it, it being revolutionary, putting your awesome concept of heavy role-play and permadeath with graphics, and thinking you'd like to give it a shot.  Again, guess I was wrong

I haven't been here very long.  Around six months.

That's been long enough, however, to notice that about once per month someone new pops up and posts something along the lines of "Hey guys, I've got this great idea for completely changing and overhauling your entire game.  It will require way more work than your volunteer staff can handle and it completely changes the game that you've loved and played since the mid-90s.  Isn't that great?"

For good or ill, most people here (including myself) respond "not really."

New people can often bring fresh ideas to the table.  However, consider that you are stepping into a project that has been 15 years in the making and you are suggesting that it be scratched and overhauled.  Don't be surprised if some of the people working on the project don't embrace your idea with open arms.

[Archbaron]

Rule 14.

Come on people.

I don't consider him a troll.

[gobbledygookie]

Actually, Thunkkin, it's not that much work, we know NWN in and out and can do pretty much everything easily. I just wondered if the community ever thought of it, not knowing - I decided to make a pitch and see what'll come out of it. I love the concept of heavy role-playing and realistic-design, I wonder how my love emotion created this messy thread!

Archbaron - I'm not trying to convince you, the initial replies made it quite clear to me, I didn't need to read more than page one to say "gotcha" but when some you go into details you're saying things that I feel urged to reply to. And I'm not sure what I've pulled out of context.

And as I've said, it's not text VS graphics, it's text with graphics as opposed to text alone. Admittedly, many role-players in NWN normally don't detail themselves half as good as those role-playing MUD's, but the very good ones do. I think a lot of the best role-players in NWN may have a MUD background, because they always impress me. I believe it does make you geared to have more to dedication to text and details.

Whatever will come out of it I will certainly go back to playing NWN and watch closely how much we let graphics fly by, and how much text we're using the supplement. Actually it's one of the things that's always interested me, but I still can't help to love visuals with it! I figured we can have both, but I'm sorry we don't see eye to eye - I honestly don't think any one is better than the other anymore - I used to, but I see it clearly now And if I could understand your community mindset before it I wouldn't have made that suggestion. Visuals just work for me better though, and maybe because you guys dedicate yourselves more to text you're able to get out of it more somehow, and that's great, there's probably something to it, and maybe we're a bit lax at times. *shrugs* We do roll with the punches a lot. Though, we can only try our best to live up to MUD's detailing/descriptive standards.

Marauder Moe - I think you get my point though, regardless of whether you think it sounded snarky.

Well, anyway, this is very enlightening.

-gobbledygookie

[RogueGunslinger]

Maybe if you all focused on the ideas and thoughts, instead of the presentation, you could get over the petty bickering?

[Nyr]

Actually, Thunkkin, it's not that much work, we know NWN in and out and can do pretty much everything easily. I just wondered if the community ever thought of it, not knowing - I decided to make a pitch and see what'll come out of it.

If you want this idea to be taken seriously, you should probably ask the staff (or even just listen to the staff here) rather than throwing the idea out on the table and trying to convince players to come to your side (either figuratively or literally).  Otherwise, it's going to be looked on rather poorly at best (and completely disregarded at worst).  So far, the reaction you've gotten has been somewhere between "poor" and "completely disregarded." 

Can you quantify the amount of work that it will or won't be?  I mean this in the nicest way possible, but you will not be doing the work, and may not realize what you are proposing:  the game's staff would be doing the work.  You have a long way to go to convince anyone that this is worth doing, especially Armageddon's staff.

If you are more interested in building this yourself separate from Armageddon, more power to you, good luck, and go right ahead:  just don't use any Zalanthan intellectual property without permission.

[Gimfalisette]

I think what you're not hearing here is that there are many of us who do have experience with both text and graphics together, and attempts to roleplay in graphical environments; and that based on this experience, we are saying that a text-only environment is preferable. I believe pretty strongly that is the text-only environment which makes the kind of detailed RP that we've got in ARM possible; and that graphics and the RPG environment actually dumb down RP. Prior to playing ARM, I had done RP for several years in graphical environments, and quality-wise, the RP never cut it. So I'm not basing my thoughts on imagining what it would be like to struggle with immersion in a graphical interface, I've actually done it. And I don't prefer it, period.

[Moofassa]

I think the length this thread has lasted is a hint to which side of the rope the staff sit on.

SRSLY never seen a thread with this much hate go for so long

LOLZ

[gobbledygookie]

Well, if there is "hate" it's certainly not coming from my side. Although in retrospect the reactions are understandable, I just hope the Armaggedon community realizes that this idea is out of love for the gamestyle not for "graphical elitism" - okay? Gamestyle to me far supercedes medium, visuals or not. Gamestyle = 99% , visuals 1%. I did say I was a player here, didn't I?

Gimfalisette - Well, little wonder you'd feel that way, the role-playing avenues graphical gameworlds offer are not impressive at all. Armaggedon offers something none of them offers, it's a type of gamestyle that I enjoy and try to offer via graphical means too.

Nyr - I'm not trying to convince anyone, convincing is not something I do, I make pitches and see reactions. Results are pretty clear here, no point to pursue it.

Personally I hope to see you flourish and I hope this gamestyle flourishes, graphics or not.

-gobbledygookie