Now that we have stat priority...

[Xagon]

Maybe adjusting scores isn't the problem, but rather the items themselves. I've seen videos of people in full plate performing various acrobatic moves. If they can do that in 20-stone armor, perhaps adjusting the items to fit a little better would work out?

Carrying any sort of large item without a container should be difficult, much as it already is. Armors should have a "worn weight" of about one-fourth of normal. Weapons shouldn't be affected if held or carried, unless you can somehow effectively use it from a "worn" position (Back-mounted Ballista!).

All items should have their effective weights deceased if placed in a container dependent on each specific container. Boxes and bags should get a weight reduction simply for being easier to carry, while Backpacks and worn sacks should get this bonus as well as a "easier to carry" reduction.

--

I can't speak about agility, as the only real thing I can see from its lack/abundance is the number of items you can carry at once.

[X-D]

Most of that is already the case.

[Morgenes]

Most of that is already the case.

yep

[brytta.leofa]

I was about to post something near a complaint, but it boils down to this:  It shorely is hard to keep encumbrance at "light" while carrying a bunch of stuff.

[Krath]

What X-D and Venomz said. It is fine as it is.

[RogueGunslinger]

I was about to post something near a complaint, but it boils down to this:  It shorely is hard to keep encumbrance at "light" while carrying a bunch of stuff.

I've never had a problem.

* RogueGunslinger flexes

Seriously though, I haven had a character with bad strength since the implementation of the new encumbered code but before it, I could easily carry around an extra pair of clothes in a pack, as well as food, extra weapon, and water, and still not break 'easily manageable'. Was the ammount you can carry changed as well as the affects of being over-encumbered? Or are you just running around with a armor too heavy for your char??

[brytta.leofa]

Seriously though, I haven had a character with bad strength since the implementation of the new encumbered code but before it, I could easily carry around an extra pair of clothes in a pack, as well as food, extra weapon, and water, and still not break 'easily manageable'.

Easy manageable isn't hard to maintain; it's staying light that seems nearly impossible if you're tricked out for desert work (armor and supplies).  But that's probably as it should be.

[Clearsighted]

If anyone, I don't care what their race, is having trouble staying at light encumbrance, then they are carrying too much. Don't forget you can 'pack' stuff on your mount. And Desert Elves should be staying close enough to their tribal homeland to not need to carry a tent and three skins of water at all times.

[Fathi]

If anyone, I don't care what their race, is having trouble staying at light encumbrance, then they are carrying too much.

Have you ever played a human/half-elf/elf with average strength or lower?

[Clearsighted]

If anyone, I don't care what their race, is having trouble staying at light encumbrance, then they are carrying too much.

Have you ever played a human/half-elf/elf with average strength or lower?

It can be done. Sacrifices might need to be made.

[Good Gortok]

If anyone, I don't care what their race, is having trouble staying at light encumbrance, then they are carrying too much.

Have you ever played a human/half-elf/elf with average strength or lower?

It can be done. Sacrifices might need to be made.

If you mean sacrifices in the form of foregoing armor in several locations or other essential equipment, then yes, you can stay at light with pretty low strength. However, it's entirely possible to have trouble staying at light without "carrying too much". Here's what I consider the bare necessities without excluding any guild or common profession:

> Reasonable armor for the head, neck, body, wrists, arms and legs.*
> One main fighting style setup (two weapons, weapon + shield, two-handed weapon)
> One backup weapon as well as a bow + quiver or three throwing knives
> A cloak, a belt, a backpack and a torch
> A full waterskin + enough food to last two days
> About a waterskin's weight in miscellaneous items such as tickets, tokens, licenses, tablets, keys, skinning knife, lockpicks, magick components, mul mix, poison, clan patch/epaulette/armband/sash/bandana/codpiece, and a few minor crafting appliances.
> 500 coins

* Reasonable armor means of decent quality, not the crappiest of crappy leather shreds that happen to be coded as armor. Excludes armor for the hands, feet, waist and back.

[musashi]

Sorry, my mind started to giggle after the mention of carrying mul mix as a must through the desert; I couldn't really finish the rest.

[Good Gortok]

Wandering desert whores are people too.

[Is Friday]

Wandering desert whores are people too.

I wouldn't consider everyone smart enough to carry "protection" a whore.

[Cavaticus]

Clearsighted, I agree with you that you're describing a reasonable amount of gear for "minimum protection/equipment" required for surviving in the desert.

It doesn't, however, necessarily follow that the minimum amount necessary for survival in the desert would be considered a light load by an average-strengthed Zalanthan non half-giant.

It's a very harsh desert, after all.

[FantasyWriter]

Also, anyone (d-elves included) who need more than the necessities can always pack a mount.

[brytta.leofa]

The grizzled, scarified half-elf surveys a unit of T'Zai Byn mercenaries, mouth hanging open unprettily.
The grizzled, scarified half-elf clears his throat.
The grizzled, scarified half-elf asks, in sirihish,
  "So...y'all really do fight with yer packs on?"

[Twilight]

minimum amount necessary for survival in the desert

Hmmm, I have never been able to carry the 3-4 half giant guards, armored argosy, vividuan and rukkian necessary for (somewhat) assured survival in the desert and remain at light encumberance.

I have found that if I was choosing armors and equipment meant for the desert, and desert survival, I was usually better off with my encumberance, though.

[Clearsighted]

If you mean sacrifices in the form of foregoing armor in several locations or other essential equipment, then yes, you can stay at light with pretty low strength. However, it's entirely possible to have trouble staying at light without "carrying too much". Here's what I consider the bare necessities without excluding any guild or common profession:

> Reasonable armor for the head, neck, body, wrists, arms and legs.*
> One main fighting style setup (two weapons, weapon + shield, two-handed weapon)
> One backup weapon as well as a bow + quiver or three throwing knives
> A cloak, a belt, a backpack and a torch
> A full waterskin + enough food to last two days
> About a waterskin's weight in miscellaneous items such as tickets, tokens, licenses, tablets, keys, skinning knife, lockpicks, magick components, mul mix, poison, clan patch/epaulette/armband/sash/bandana/codpiece, and a few minor crafting appliances.
> 500 coins

* Reasonable armor means of decent quality, not the crappiest of crappy leather shreds that happen to be coded as armor. Excludes armor for the hands, feet, waist and back.

This isn't what I had in mind when I mentioned making a few strategic sacrifices. In fact, if the above is what people consider to be travelling light /after/ making sacrifices, then I think you all deserve to go around at whatever encumbrance you are at. Remember, as well, that your mount isn't just for carrying you. Sadly, I don't think many people really understand what reasonable armor truly is anyways. Though, that requires a certain time and experimentation to find out gradually, what really works for its weight. Looking at veteran desert survival PCs will give good clues.

Clearsighted, I agree with you that you're describing a reasonable amount of gear for "minimum protection/equipment" required for surviving in the desert.

It doesn't, however, necessarily follow that the minimum amount necessary for survival in the desert would be considered a light load by an average-strengthed Zalanthan non half-giant.

It's a very harsh desert, after all.

Might have gotten me mixed up with Good Gortok?

[Good Gortok]

This isn't what I had in mind when I mentioned making a few strategic sacrifices. In fact, if the above is what people consider to be travelling light /after/ making sacrifices, then I think you all deserve to go around at whatever encumbrance you are at. Remember, as well, that your mount isn't just for carrying you. Sadly, I don't think many people really understand what reasonable armor truly is anyways. Though, that requires a certain time and experimentation to find out gradually, what really works for its weight. Looking at veteran desert survival PCs will give good clues.

I'm just pointing out that it can be quite difficult to stay at light encumbrance with a low strength if you don't want to make sacrifices that directly affect your character's range of utility or chance of survival. I don't necessarily think that every character should be able to wear what they feel they need without suffering any encumbrance consequences, but to say that anyone of any race can stay at light without difficulty isn't quite true. Assuming that the character in question is a fighter or traveller of some sort, there's nothing in my list that you can remove without also adding risk or significant inconvenience. A merchant, gemmer or street cutpurse might not need half of that, but neither are they particularly concerned about encumbrance.

Sadly, I don't think many people really understand what reasonable armor truly is anyways.

I consider reasonable armor to be anything that makes a noticeable difference. This will typically be leather or lower-range chitin/bone armor along the lines of the studded bone bracer, black leather pants, shirt of hard black leather, tied carru-hide collar, simple black helm etc. that you can generally buy with a warrior or ranger's starting funds. You can exclude arm and leg armor if you're really struggling, but you simply have to wear the head + neck + body + wrists pieces if you want to enter combat with any kind of regularity.

[a strange shadow]

A full desert kit with extra weapons will have most PCs at easily manageable or manageable.

I think this is fine and to be expected.

Making some sacrifices will allow most PCs to travel at light encumbrance.

A "light" desert kit outfit would look more like this, IMO:

> Leather or reinforced sandcloth armor, with heavier pieces for the head and neck.
> Two main weapons, a couple backup knives, either a two-handed weapon or a bow, either a shield or a quiver.
> A skinning knife, a few throwing knives.
> A waterpouch/small drinking container for emergencies, a few pieces of dried meat.
> A cloak & veil/facewrap
> A few tablets, 250-500 coins, tickets, minor lightweight minutiae, a torch/crystal
> A backpack with rations, waterskins, climbing gear, extra lights, an extra bag, to be packed on the mount

That is what we mean by making sacrifices, folks. You carry only what you absolutely need to carry. You could even cut down further on the above setup by being more selective with your ranged combat and/or weapon choices.

[a strange shadow]

I'm just pointing out that it can be quite difficult to stay at light encumbrance with a low strength if you don't want to make sacrifices that directly affect your character's range of utility or chance of survival.

Not really. I kept an average-strength half-elf at light and never had trouble making sure she had the basic necessities.

Maybe your expectations of what the "basic necessities" are need adjustment (see my post above).

[FantasyWriter]

I play mostly rangers and most of my rangers are half-elfs or humans.  I have never had a problem keeping them at 'easily manageable' or lower.
Unless you are going after a mekillot or bahamet, are off to war, or on mounted patrols (with adequate reinforcements), heavy armor seems quite OOC to me.

Also: fighting with a pack on when you have a mount hitched to you, also OOC IMHO.

[Dar]

A "light" desert kit outfit would look more like this, IMO:

> Leather or reinforced sandcloth armor, with heavier pieces for the head and neck.
> Two main weapons, a couple backup knives, either a two-handed weapon or a bow, either a shield or a quiver.
> A skinning knife, a few throwing knives.
> A waterpouch/small drinking container for emergencies, a few pieces of dried meat.
> A cloak & veil/facewrap
> A few tablets, 250-500 coins, tickets, minor lightweight minutiae, a torch/crystal
> A backpack with rations, waterskins, climbing gear, extra lights, an extra bag, to be packed on the mount

Yeah. This 'does' look better then what Gortok mentioned. All you really need on you is armor (head/neck/wrists mainly, the rest not so important). Weapons+backup. Cures. A cloak. And enough water/food to be able to return back to the city/camp should shit hit the fan and you'd have to abandon your mount. If you're really scrapped for strength, you might even choose to keep your arrows on your mount. The bows tend to be expensive/rare to abandon with the mount, but arrows? Most of the time when you get to shooting, you have some time for preparation, so you'll be able to rearrange things. Not very comfortable, but if you're making sacrifices, yar.

Things are harder on delves though, since if they're planning to drag a mount after them, they'll have to sneak slowly or otherwise have the mount tired out. Buuut, eh. Delves got other things going for them that makes things easier.

All that said, I kind of like how things are right now. You dont 'have' to be in top shape all the time you travel. It's wiser sometimes, and sometimes too much of a nuisance. Up to your character's personality to see how careful is he. It also allows different preparations depending on what you're planning to do, going out. Are you going out on a hunt or even a manhunt? Are you just going from city to city, trading?

[FantasyWriter]

A "light" desert kit outfit would look more like this, IMO:

> Leather or reinforced sandcloth armor, with heavier pieces for the head and neck.
> Two main weapons, a couple backup knives, either a two-handed weapon or a bow, either a shield or a quiver.
> A skinning knife, a few throwing knives.
> A waterpouch/small drinking container for emergencies, a few pieces of dried meat.
> A cloak & veil/facewrap
> A few tablets, 250-500 coins, tickets, minor lightweight minutiae, a torch/crystal
> A backpack with rations, waterskins, climbing gear, extra lights, an extra bag, to be packed on the mount

That is what we mean by making sacrifices, folks. You carry only what you absolutely need to carry. You could even cut down further on the above setup by being more selective with your ranged combat and/or weapon choices.

This looks really good.  If you cut your weapons down like she suggests at the end, I can't see even an elf having a problem.