Harsh Talk

[jcljules]

Zalanthas is supposed to be harsh, right? And for most of my limited experience, it has been--I've seen plenty of murder, betrayal and scheming. I've seen PK, I've seen/experienced deaths to hunger and thirst, I've witnessed all sorts of great plots. So for the most part, there is a lot of harshness. But, even though maybe its just me, there is one area of the game where I feel like everyone is still way too nice--and thats just plain old conversation.

In my experience, when you're just chatting at a tavern, most of the time everyone is nice to everyone else. People seem really really -nice-, compliments are bandied about and everyone smiles and nods to everyone else all the time. Even people who end up PKing each other later. What I'd like to see is more outright meanness or even competitiveness in conversation. It should be -hard- to defend your reputation. Nobles should be mocking and having bards satirize each other, mercenaries should be calling each other wimps, merchants should be calling each other con-artists--and people should actually care about stuff like that. You don't have to be too overt about it--a subtle joke or just playfully teasing another PC in public should have the same effect.

The problem is, nobody seems to try to do this now and when they do, nobody really cares. I can make fun of Amos the mercenary for being a wimp and a coward... but he always seems to just laugh it off. Even when the other character tries to defend their reputation, trying to beat up your PC for example, nobody -else- seems to care. Basically, what I'm saying is this--if I make fun of Amos the mercenary for being a wimpy, scared little tregil, and he does nothing about that... people should hire Malik. If bards start subtly mocking fat, lazy Lord Tenneshi who spends all of his 'sids on food and pleasure slaves, people should seriously consider not becoming his partisan.

Right now it just seems to me that everyone is too nice in conversation. When they aren't, people don't care enough. I really wish people had to fight for their reputations more in game... my character has made a few big gaffes in public, but nobody seems to want to mock him, stop doing busineses with him, or snicker behind is back. There was a certain thing I did ICly very recently, that of course I can't mention, just to test this--only one PC really gave me a hard time about it, and I kudos'd them.

So folks... mock your rivals and stop being too afraid to be mean to people. If my mercenary PC shrieked and ran like a little tregil during a barfight last Abid, please don't hire him to be your guard. In fact, make fun of him. If you're in Tuluk, smile at him and ask him if he's recovered from his 'little fright,' because you were 'so worried about him.' If you're in 'nak, laugh in his face and throw mugs of ale at him.  Make it easy to lose your Rep to a mistake or two--it'll make the game harsher and more fun, even for tavern-sitting city-goers who don't get to experience raids, hunger and thirst, and sandstorms.

[Delstro]

That is a quick way to see the mantis head.
I agree though. I always like to be atleast a little assholeish IC.

[jcljules]

...I just realized that this thread should probably be in Roleplaying Discussion. Oops. 

[Marauder Moe]

Do you play in Tuluk?  


Seriously, though, all over it couldn't hurt to have fewer pleasantries and more banter.

I think we may have a problem with conflict momentum, though.  Conflict can escalate way too quickly and to lethal levels.  Banter becomes vitriol, then rivalry, then social and professional sabotage, and eventually murder.  It seldom deescalates.  People (non-elves) don't often shrug things off or apologize.

Thus, in Armageddon, being nice is a matter of survival.

[brytta.leofa]

I think we may have a problem with conflict momentum, though.  Conflict can escalate way too quickly and to lethal levels.  Banter becomes vitriol, then rivalry, then social and professional sabotage, and eventually murder.  It seldom deescalates.  People (non-elves) don't often shrug things off or apologize.

Maybe we need to be more willing to tolerate ongoing conflict across the board: it's okay to hate someone for years, to attack him verbally, and to mess with his business.  Bloodletting should probably be one of the last options among the non-desperate classes.

What's a good reason to kill someone?
- He started the killin'.
- He's hurting your reputation or business a lot.  How much?  Oh, say, several times per year what the contract on him would cost.
- You're in the business of killing.

[a strange shadow]

I'd like to say, I've been fortunate enough to run into long-term hatred, snarky banter, and hostile conversation.

I've participated in more than my fair share of that.

... and I've played frequently in Tuluk.

So, maybe the problem is a perception, and maybe the solution lies with those who perceive it.

[SMuz]

I think harshness is more of a reaction to the harsh landscape. In real life third-world countries, people are not harsh for the sake of being harsh.. they're harsh because everyone else is harsh to them, because they have to work 14 hours a day and the bus fee alone costs 3 hours of work. They have no chance of getting a promotion because of racism or because the guy above him bribed the boss.

Honestly, Zalanthas isn't harsh enough. Most PCs are let off from paying the house bill because they can just sleep (ahem, quit) in the tavern. If you played as a hunter, sure, I guess you could feel the pain, especially when having to fill the waterskin after unsuccessful hunt involving 3 tarantulas chasing you to the gates.

The rest of you have it easy. Getting 30 'sids from a pickpocket attempt. Crafting up a nice table in your room and selling it for a small. Pfft.. go on and live out a proper harsh life in Zalanthas first, then you'll get into character Get yourself pissed off at the world. It'll come naturally.

Personally, my character's at the lowest rung of society. But hey, he's learned to laugh off an insult, but hidden emote a sneer. He's learned to nod, laugh, and suck up to superiors a bit. He takes it in stride when a superior talks him down. To him, it's a matter of survival. Insulting a clan officer about the size of his cock doesn't help his career. Heck, anyone out there could be a 'gicker, assassin, even someone with important noble friends. If you want to be tough and cocky, it's up to you. But my boy's learned that the best way to stay alive is to be nice and stay out of sight.

[jcljules]

I think we may have a problem with conflict momentum, though.  Conflict can escalate way too quickly and to lethal levels.  Banter becomes vitriol, then rivalry, then social and professional sabotage, and eventually murder.  It seldom deescalates.  People (non-elves) don't often shrug things off or apologize.

I think that if more low-level competitive banter and competition existed, people would be less inclined to PK over small matters. I think that people are so nice (and bored) sometimes that when there is any hint of a problem, people get excited and immediately want to PK and have a fully-escalated conflict.

I'd like to say, I've been fortunate enough to run into long-term hatred, snarky banter, and hostile conversation.

I've participated in more than my fair share of that.

... and I've played frequently in Tuluk.

So, maybe the problem is a perception, and maybe the solution lies with those who perceive it.

I'm not saying I haven't perceived any of this... a few PCs, some of the most interesting I meet, do this sort of thing. I do know that it happens. But as I was saying, even if two PCs become enemies and have snarky banter all the time... what matters is if other people notice. Everyone has to pay attention to this sort of stuff for a PCs reputation to be important. Amos and Malik the potters might insult each other's work all the time at the Gaj, but if no-one takes notice, its still between the two of them.

The rest of you have it easy. Getting 30 'sids from a pickpocket attempt. Crafting up a nice table in your room and selling it for a small. Pfft.. go on and live out a proper harsh life in Zalanthas first, then you'll get into character Get yourself pissed off at the world. It'll come naturally.

This is exactly my point--the cities should be harsh, too. I play a city-bound character currently, and I -never- feel in any danger. I feel like I should. And part of the cities becoming harsher is people getting meaner and more competitive.

Personally, my character's at the lowest rung of society. But hey, he's learned to laugh off an insult, but hidden emote a sneer. He's learned to nod, laugh, and suck up to superiors a bit. He takes it in stride when a superior talks him down. To him, it's a matter of survival. Insulting a clan officer about the size of his cock doesn't help his career. Heck, anyone out there could be a 'gicker, assassin, even someone with important noble friends. If you want to be tough and cocky, it's up to you. But my boy's learned that the best way to stay alive is to be nice and stay out of sight.

I'm not saying people should be mean just for the sake of being mean. I'm talking about meanness with a purpose. What I see happen too often is this...

"Hey, I make jewelry!"
"Oh my Tek, me too! Wanna hang out and discuss techniques some time?"

These two should be insulting each other's pieces and jockying for customers, even if its subtle. And I'm not trying to be the RP police--if I see two PCs doing this, I won't judge them--for all I know, they could be hiring assassins to go after each other, or hiring bards to satirize each other's work. But from my personal experience, this doesn't happen--PCs who have everything to gain from insulting my PCs work or spreading bad rumors about him are still super friendly.

[a strange shadow]

On the other hand, constantly tearing everything down and never allowing anything to flourish is discouraging on an OOC level, and happens far more frequently than anyone "working together" to achieve some eventual end... which I haven't seen in a long time.

Enemies are a dime a dozen, true allies are harder to find than a clean whore in the 'rinth.

So I'm not sure what the problem is.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I don't play Arm for the harshness, I play Arm for how well the world is written, and the quality of the roleplay. I hate harshness, actually. If I wanted to be dirt poor and miserable, I wouldn't log in. I'd think about the fact that I'm living in my car and often don't have the money to buy groceries. Sure, make it that much harshes. Whatever.

I -do- like ongoing conflict though, and agree that it doesn't happen often enough. But I blame that more on the tendency of PC's to live fast and hard. Not their unwillingness to take part in it. More just that they often die too quickly to let good conflict fester or come to a head.

[tortall]

More just that they often die too quickly to let good conflict fester or come to a head.

This. I had a lot of plans with some chars recently, and then they all died to stupid things.

[Jingo]

Play a half-breed.

Trust me, It'll come up.

[manonfire]

I will forever bring the harshness, the violence, and the go-fuck-yourself attitude to my characters.

Doing anything but feels like a betrayal of the original spirit of Armageddon, which I think has been largely ignored the past few years.

Rise up, you cutesy bullshit so-kawaii tavern sitters. Embrace your inner demons, and move boldly to change the world.

[AmandaGreathouse]

More just that they often die too quickly to let good conflict fester or come to a head.

This. I had a lot of plans with some chars recently, and then they all died to stupid things.

I know what you mean, I've had so many plots I was working on come to ruin because of characters dying. And a lot of it was to stupid things, like NPC animals they weren't even trying to fight.

*shakes fist*

Seriously, go fuck yourself, carru.

[Reiloth]

Polite conversation in Tuluk is not all that it seems.

"The owls are not what they seem" - Twin Peaks

[Gunnerblaster]

People seem really really -nice-, compliments are bandied about and everyone smiles and nods to everyone else all the time. Even people who end up PKing each other later.

Well, there could always be alot've underlying motives for someone's behavior. Come off as a nice, chummy fellow - People won't usually think that deep into following you into your apartment or going out on "a hunt" with you.

Then that's when you've got them.

Throwing a faceful of verbal shit into someone's face is a good way to let them you don't like them but it is also a good way to get someone to never trust you if you ever need something from them such as a particular service and/or their life.

"Hey, I make jewelry!"
"Oh my Tek, me too! Wanna hang out and discuss techniques some time?"

Then you never see one of those merchants again (alive).

[My 2 sids]

Part of the problem is that BOTH nak and Tuluk are highly political -- every PC is connected, so can't go around offendeing any PC.

What would be nice is if one city remained political (for your spies and what-not) and one was far more hyarchtical (that's where you'll get the out-right non-politically-correct insults and such)

[Chettaman]

I would think most people in Zalanthas would have no idea what's going on in politics. Pretty much just north hating the south and vice-versa.
It's already been stated so I'll 2nd, or 3rd the idea of characters jumping from being angry to murdering too quickly. I've seen bar-fights, but then they would usually sit back down at the bar and have a chat. I don't know about anyone else, but not once have I seen someone leave the scene after being publicly humiliated. But maybe I just haven't been around long enough. I think it would be nice to see someone actually get knocked out. Or for someone to stay gone when they flee.

[Nile]

I'm definently down for some more IG hate. I try and have an asshole streak to all my characters because I see so many lagging. It sure is fun hating on all those wimpy, friendly PCs as well...

One problem I've encountered has been people vowing to kill my character after a simple barfight. I don't think that a barfight in Zalanthas is something worth killing over. I'm sure it happens a lot.

[Only He Stands There]

I had a GMH member nearly a year ago who pretty simply told people exactly what he thought of them. Was he nice? Sure, at times. Was he a conniving asshole? Oh yes. He spent a good portion of his time making rival merchants cry (literally) and badmouthing one of the other GMHs openly, to anyone who would listen.

The thing is, if you're an asshole, nobody will want to roleplay with you. Make them have to, by being someone they need, and you've got the start of something beautiful and awesomely fun.

(By the by, said asshole PC lived a full RL year.)

[Yam]

I had a GMH member nearly a year ago who pretty simply told people exactly what he thought of them. Was he nice? Sure, at times. Was he a conniving asshole? Oh yes. He spent a good portion of his time making rival merchants cry (literally) and badmouthing one of the other GMHs openly, to anyone who would listen.

The thing is, if you're an asshole, nobody will want to roleplay with you. Make them have to, by being someone they need, and you've got the start of something beautiful and awesomely fun.

(By the by, said asshole PC lived a full RL year.)

And then what happened to him? Eh? Eh?

That asshole got what he deserved!

[SMuz]

Hmm.. living in a harsh third world country, most of the harshness actually comes from selfish, stupid behavior. It's basically when you're trying to survive, you'll just nudge anyone else out of the way.

Here's some ideas I had:
1. Don't care what people think. So what if you're blocking the road by tailoring a cloak right in the middle of the streets? It's your space. Also, be a jerk and drag bloody corpses into the tavern. Try to sell them to someone. Even sit down at the bar, eat what you just cooked, ignoring what the bartender says about it, and tell everyone that your meat is better than his (twss). If he kicks you out, it's pretty damn obvious that he sees you as a threat.

2. Don't purposely make opponents. But if you're aiming for a promotion, discredit anyone who could be an opponent. Point out that they are bad fighters, that they're dishonest, heck, bring up racist stereotypes. Don't do it only in their face. Talk about them behind their backs. And then if they just happen to be there later on, insult them in their faces, after you've previously suggested to everyone that your rival won't have the guts to fight your words. Heh, it's the backbone of Malaysian politics.

3. A jerk without power is just asking to be hit. If you're going to be a jerk, at least wait until you're in a powerful position. Be a good little suck-up to your boss until you get some power.

4. If someone's in the way, knock them down. Helping a beggar will make you out as a target. Some people even fake injury to distract you as pickpockets rob you and raiders close in on you. It's a common tactic; don't be fooled by your pity.


Interestingly, a lot of 'twinkish' behavior seems to be quite IC

Also, if you're going to be a jerk, it's better not to do it with someone who's obviously a newbie and doesn't really get the concept that it's all just roleplaying. There are a lot of real meanies in any online game, and I know when I first started, it was great knowing that it wasn't personal.

[Tisiphone]

Oh yeah, Amos? Well, you kin go fuck a dead kank, and sell yer mother t' the militia for yer eatin' 'sid.


Do this more.

[My 2 sids]

Hmm.. living in a harsh third world country, most of the harshness actually comes from selfish, stupid behavior. It's basically when you're trying to survive, you'll just nudge anyone else out of the way.

Here's some ideas I had:
1. Don't care what people think. So what if you're blocking the road by tailoring a cloak right in the middle of the streets? It's your space. Also, be a jerk and drag bloody corpses into the tavern. Try to sell them to someone. Even sit down at the bar, eat what you just cooked, ignoring what the bartender says about it, and tell everyone that your meat is better than his (twss). If he kicks you out, it's pretty damn obvious that he sees you as a threat.

2. Don't purposely make opponents. But if you're aiming for a promotion, discredit anyone who could be an opponent. Point out that they are bad fighters, that they're dishonest, heck, bring up racist stereotypes. Don't do it only in their face. Talk about them behind their backs. And then if they just happen to be there later on, insult them in their faces, after you've previously suggested to everyone that your rival won't have the guts to fight your words. Heh, it's the backbone of Malaysian politics.

3. A jerk without power is just asking to be hit. If you're going to be a jerk, at least wait until you're in a powerful position. Be a good little suck-up to your boss until you get some power.

4. If someone's in the way, knock them down. Helping a beggar will make you out as a target. Some people even fake injury to distract you as pickpockets rob you and raiders close in on you. It's a common tactic; don't be fooled by your pity.


Interestingly, a lot of 'twinkish' behavior seems to be quite IC

Also, if you're going to be a jerk, it's better not to do it with someone who's obviously a newbie and doesn't really get the concept that it's all just roleplaying. There are a lot of real meanies in any online game, and I know when I first started, it was great knowing that it wasn't personal.

This is nice, but only half. 

People have to be willing to accept these things (have to accept being treated poorly, have to accept their PC may feel intimindated, have to accept fear)  else what we have is more like a cold-war set up rather than a harsh life.

[Rairen]

I insult people, but I don't think they notice.    Allanak or Tuluk, I rather suck at doing blatant, outlandish provokation.  I mean, anyone can go up to Amos and call him an elf kanker.  It takes much more thought and planning to call yourself an elf kanker and then kiss him so that you can mock him for being an elf kanker-kisser.