Scan vs Sneak/Hide

[brytta.leofa]

None of them will stop a PC with reasonable stealth skills. You're almost guaranteed to be good enough to sneak past without failure long before you're good enough to pick the locks.

I'm wondering how scan currently stacks up against sneaky skills.  Things we obviously shouldn't talk about: which guilds get these skills, or detailed mechanics.  I'm trying to get a sense of how they actually balance out in-game.

My understanding is that scan now improves only when you spot (or don't) some hidden critter.  Sneak and hide, on the other hand, are presumably improved with each use (or failed attempt).  Thus, scan is hard to practice, but stealth is easy to practice.

Is this correct?  Is this, indeed, new behavior?  And are things currently balanced more in favor of the sneaky end?

I think the sneak/hide analogue to how scan works would be for them to improve only when you fail a check vs a PC or NPC.

[Synthesis]

You're wrong about how scan improves, as far as I can tell.

However, maxed hide almost always wins vs. maxed scan, so the skill is really only good for spotting newbs and mobs.

[Gunnerblaster]

I'd have to say that Stealth defeats Perception, the more advanced a PC becomes.

There are also more items that give bonuses to Stealth skills.

[Dar]

There are plenty of options that allow seeing someone hidden. But yeah, if the person is wearing the right gear and is prepared, he'll beat maxed scan. Except ... if the person is wearing all that and then gets into a fray against an armored guy. Things might go funny for the sneaky.


I'm a little puzzled on what Synthesis is saying. That 'is' how scan improves. Ever since the change in scan/listen ?

[Synthesis]

I haven't played with it since the changes, so I suppose I could be wrong.

[Dar]

So yeah. Before, listen and scan were not too complex to improve. Listen still isnt. I used to stand guard at my clan's hqs, scanning every so often, to improve scan.  Now ... useless. I dont even know how militia/tor/oash improve their scans. They cant go to places where people sneak a lot often (well, not easilly). And the critters who sneak is rare, and requires a whole small rpt to go out on a wilderness patrol.


So yeah, hide is much easier to get good at, then scan. But hide is also more 'vital' to a whole guild's existence then scan. A ranger could survive without scan and still be an effective ranger. An assassin/burglar can 'not'.


Still, I wouldnt mind scan becoming easier to practice somehow.

[staggerlee]

I would imagine that when you toggle scan it checks against your skill once giving a chance at a skill up. (Exactly like listen) It may or may not check again when a hidden person passes through the room, but my money is on the check being upon the entering of the command and not the presence of hidden people.

However.  That isn't the issue. The issue with scan/hide is, and always has been, that it's an all or nothing equation. The nature of the skill as a 100% invisibility vs a total detect hidden is what seems to frustrate people.  I don't think the issue is about whether one is balanced against the other, so much as finding a way to code the skills that feels more organic, and less binary.

[Lizzie]

I'm not sure where you're coming up with this all or nothing scenario. It sounds a bit like a strawman argument.

My last ranger could see, on occasion, the presence of invisible people. Not always, and not even often. But sometimes. Given that level of skill (the example is merely to demonstrate her particular level of skill which I assume was fairly high, but not maxed)...

She could *usually* spot a certain hiding critter 2 rooms away. But even then sometimes I'd miss, or have to "look south" a couple of times before I saw the shadow again.

I don't feel that hide will -always- trump scan. My experience is that it will often trump scan, but not always, and that is -exactly- the risk you take when you want to play a sneaky character. That sometimes...the person you're sneaking around, will actually notice you're there.

[Clearsighted]

The fact is that maxed stealth will 9 out of 10 times trump maxed scan. Because almost everyone who bothers to max stealth will have access to either the city or outside version of two very well known sets of gear that provide big bonuses to stealth, where there is no real scan-boosting equiv beyond one or two items.

[Lizzie]

The fact is that maxed stealth will 9 out of 10 times trump maxed scan. Because almost everyone who bothers to max stealth will have access to either the city or outside version of two very well known sets of gear that provide big bonuses to stealth, where there is no real scan-boosting equiv beyond one or two items.

Definitely not a fact. It isn't a fact that 9 out of 10 times it will trump max scan.

Also, it's a fact that everyone has access to the same gear as everyone else, whether they have max scan or not.

It's also a fact that if you have scan high enough, you'll STILL see that hide-boosting equipment-wearing guy hiding outside the city, or inside the city, at least sometimes. SOMETIMES - the hider WILL fail. Not possibly, not never, not always. But sometmes. I don't care how good you are at hiding. At some point during your hiding career, SOMEONE will see you.

[staggerlee]

I'm not sure where you're coming up with this all or nothing scenario. It sounds a bit like a strawman argument.

I didn't realize this was an argument.
DIKU code tends to work in binaries, which is something the staff are moving away from in Arm 2.0. 

I'm relatively content with the way the code works right now, though I'd like to see further energies put into encouraging rp in order to compensate for its flaws.

[Clearsighted]

The fact is that maxed stealth will 9 out of 10 times trump maxed scan. Because almost everyone who bothers to max stealth will have access to either the city or outside version of two very well known sets of gear that provide big bonuses to stealth, where there is no real scan-boosting equiv beyond one or two items.

It's also a fact that if you have scan high enough, you'll STILL see that hide-boosting equipment-wearing guy hiding outside the city, or inside the city, at least sometimes. SOMETIMES - the hider WILL fail. Not possibly, not never, not always. But sometmes. I don't care how good you are at hiding. At some point during your hiding career, SOMEONE will see you.

Yep...It happens about one out of ten times.

[Dar]

Anyway. Expecting scan to trump assassin/burglar's hide is silly. Scan is an important aspect of a guild, but it is not one of the 'main' traits of it. Hiding skills of assassin/burglars 'are'.  But the conversation is about apartments, and truth is ... even if burglars didnt have hide at 'all', they would still be popping locks left and right, simply by renting one of the apartments inside.


I dislike the barring system, because it gives some guilds a fortress of solititude where they can spamcast, without fear of anything. I dislike any system come to think of it, that removes risk and fear. If the barring system were implimented, you can aswell just rename RS into Sorceror/Nilazi mansion, and nothing ... barring Imm intervention will be able to put that much risk to them. There are already places out there that have the highest type of locks (non rentable), and 4 out of 5 times, if you do get inside and wait 10-15 hours, you gonna stumble into 'someone' unnatural, who will promptly kill you.

I 'would' like to have burglars/merchants have an ability to 'enhance' existant locks, to make them more complicated to pick. I would actually love if burglars became famous not for their ability to pop any lock, but their ability to fuck with their own competition by providing a good and honest service of improving the locks of honest citizens. As long as it is balanced somehow.

But overral.

Everything is combattable. Whoever robs these apartments is a pc, and therefore can be dealt with. Either via negotiation, a very sharp sword, or magicks. It 'does' take atleast some amount of effort and investment to get a burglar to a point where he can start popping locks left and right, and since they're inept at pretty much everything else ... that is something they're gonna do, untill they die, or non coded ic circumstances will convince them to stop.


edit: I just realized that I wrote in a sneak/hide thread, thinking it's the apartment thread. My apologies. Heh.

[Lakota]

I haven't played with it since the changes, so I suppose I could be wrong.

I have.

You must make use of both skills, i.e. have skill checks against them, in order to improve them.

In other words, the only way to raise your listen is to have someone sneaking into your room, or for you to sit your ass in a bar away from everyone else and play the loner for around 10 days. Scan is a bit easier to raise if you are a hunter.

[Lakota]

Anyway. Expecting scan to trump assassin/burglar's hide is silly. Scan is an important aspect of a guild, but it is not one of the 'main' traits of it. Hiding skills of assassin/burglars 'are'.

I take it you've never played a ranger? Scan is without a doubt one of the five most important skills a ranger -must- have.

[UnderSeven]

I hate how you can't search a room for something.  You can knoww someone is there, they can not sneak away, you could never find them, not because your skillz arn't good enough, but because we lack skills for the most basic of things. I mean seriously, how does anyone in armageddon find their missing car keys?

[Yokunama]

I hate how you can't search a room for something.  You can knoww someone is there, they can not sneak away, you could never find them, not because your skillz arn't good enough, but because we lack skills for the most basic of things. I mean seriously, how does anyone in armageddon find their missing car keys?

I have a problem similar to this with the code. Characters that can spot *shadows* and *blurs* have no problem noticing them at a distance, but when someone wants to engage them, they have to spam the look command and hope they get lucky enough to see whatever it is. Then again, I always Rped it as not being able to quiet make out what it is. So, it doesn't bother me that much.

[roughneck]

I was away with work for the month around the sneak and hide change and playing a ranger at the time so I don't know if there was much discussion around it on here and I haven't looked either, to be honest.  I will say however that it'd be a funny scenario if you had a rogue class ready to sap someone and the victim, in an attempt to prepare for the battle used the scan skill, effectively making him far more vulnerable to the impending sap and the combat following.  Scan and listen dropping stun makes absolutely 0 sense.  Stamina, yes, as being alert does tucker a fellow out, disoriented, dizzy or punch-drunk?  I don't see it.

I'd be all for scan being able to trump hide if it was a little easier to get out of places but the fact is if I'm shadowing someone, my only way out after I follow someone is a compound is to wait for them to leave.  No scaling walls, bailing out a window or slipping out a gate while some VNPC comes in or out.  If scan trumps hide, the rogue classes are useless.  I think it's enough of a handicap that you can't actually -do- anything significant without becoming unhidden, sure you can steal or grab things, but nothing too heavy anyways.

[Good Gortok]

I was away with work for the month around the sneak and hide change and playing a ranger at the time so I don't know if there was much discussion around it on here and I haven't looked either, to be honest.  I will say however that it'd be a funny scenario if you had a rogue class ready to sap someone and the victim, in an attempt to prepare for the battle used the scan skill, effectively making him far more vulnerable to the impending sap and the combat following.  Scan and listen dropping stun makes absolutely 0 sense.  Stamina, yes, as being alert does tucker a fellow out, disoriented, dizzy or punch-drunk?  I don't see it.

I agree. These toggle skills (scan, listen, watch, guard) now reduce stun by as much as 10 or more each, cumulatively. It makes no sense and it puts the user at a significant risk in certain situations.

[Eloran]

I don't particularly like the stun drain, but it -is- negligible when you get good at both respective skills.

[Ghost]

How are you guys so sure how perception or stealth skills improve?

Or are you not so sure and you are making educated guesses?

[Medena]

Like Ghost I was sceptical about whether people really knew how perception skills were raised. But I searched and found this:

I'm not sure if this was brought up but since Listen and Scan are now toggle skills, how would one improve in his/her listen and scan abilities?

What I mean to say is, is it still the same as before to where you become better by fail-checks, etc. that your not aware of or does simply turning listen/scan on increase one's ability?

Before it worked based on success turning it on, now it works like watch and guard, you gain when the skill is tested.

[staggerlee]

Like Ghost I was sceptical about whether people really knew how perception skills were raised. But I searched and found this:

I'm not sure if this was brought up but since Listen and Scan are now toggle skills, how would one improve in his/her listen and scan abilities?

What I mean to say is, is it still the same as before to where you become better by fail-checks, etc. that your not aware of or does simply turning listen/scan on increase one's ability?

Before it worked based on success turning it on, now it works like watch and guard, you gain when the skill is tested.

Oh hey, that clears a lot up.

[Synthesis]

Like Ghost I was sceptical about whether people really knew how perception skills were raised. But I searched and found this:

I'm not sure if this was brought up but since Listen and Scan are now toggle skills, how would one improve in his/her listen and scan abilities?

What I mean to say is, is it still the same as before to where you become better by fail-checks, etc. that your not aware of or does simply turning listen/scan on increase one's ability?

Before it worked based on success turning it on, now it works like watch and guard, you gain when the skill is tested.

Oh hey, that clears a lot up.

Haha, I know a couple of stretches along the North Road that are suddenly going to be getting a LOT more traffic.

"Hey, Amos."
"Hey, Malik."
"What's going on?"
"Looking."
"For what?"
"I dunno, just looking."
Malik squints off into the undergrowth and says, "Yeah, shrubs are nice this time of year, aren't they."
"Hey, you see that?"
"Nah, let me look a few more times."
"Yeah, it's definitely something."
"Well, I figure I'm about all looked out."
"You comin' back out to get some lookin' done tomorrow?"
"You betcha."
"Call it a date, then."

[Good Gortok]

Before it worked based on success turning it on, now it works like watch and guard, you gain when the skill is tested.

Won't this make the skills virtually impossible to increase for characters of certain professions, as well as further encourage OOC-motivated behaviour in order to increase them? I can't see a Luirs-bound merchant having much opportunity to raise scan, nor a desert-elf's listen. Since the skills themselves are so important and certain classes may branch crucial skills from them, they may very well have to seek out places with the OOC knowledge that hidden NPCs exist there. If they don't, the time taken to get these skills to a tolerable level will be prohibitive.

[Is Friday]

It will take longer, yes, but it's pretty easy to do, either way. And no, it doesn't create OOC motivation to raise these skills, all it does it ensure you can't leave the gates--hit a button a few times, and improve them.

[Clearsighted]

Before it worked based on success turning it on, now it works like watch and guard, you gain when the skill is tested.

Won't this make the skills virtually impossible to increase for characters of certain professions, as well as further encourage OOC-motivated behaviour in order to increase them? I can't see a Luirs-bound merchant having much opportunity to raise scan, nor a desert-elf's listen. Since the skills themselves are so important and certain classes may branch crucial skills from them, they may very well have to seek out places with the OOC knowledge that hidden NPCs exist there. If they don't, the time taken to get these skills to a tolerable level will be prohibitive.

That's what I said at the time. So long as your character has any IC reason to be in any of the cities, you should be able to get it up eventually. But I can see how listen for delves is going to be a pain.

[Synthesis]

Before it worked based on success turning it on, now it works like watch and guard, you gain when the skill is tested.

Won't this make the skills virtually impossible to increase for characters of certain professions, as well as further encourage OOC-motivated behaviour in order to increase them? I can't see a Luirs-bound merchant having much opportunity to raise scan, nor a desert-elf's listen. Since the skills themselves are so important and certain classes may branch crucial skills from them, they may very well have to seek out places with the OOC knowledge that hidden NPCs exist there. If they don't, the time taken to get these skills to a tolerable level will be prohibitive.

That's what I said at the time. So long as your character has any IC reason to be in any of the cities, you should be able to get it up eventually. But I can see how listen for delves is going to be a pain.

It will be -beyond- easy for d-elves.

All d-elves have a tribe, right? If you travel slowly, in groups, your listen skill will go up faster than any other character type in the game, except maybe 'rinthers.

Oh, wait...but if you solo around in the wastes just pretending like you really belong to a tribe, yeah, you're boned.

[Lakota]

Oh, wait...but if you solo around in the wastes just pretending like you really belong to a tribe, yeah, you're boned.

Or if your tribe has few, if any, pcs.

[Dar]

Before it worked based on success turning it on, now it works like watch and guard, you gain when the skill is tested.

Won't this make the skills virtually impossible to increase for characters of certain professions, as well as further encourage OOC-motivated behaviour in order to increase them? I can't see a Luirs-bound merchant having much opportunity to raise scan, nor a desert-elf's listen. Since the skills themselves are so important and certain classes may branch crucial skills from them, they may very well have to seek out places with the OOC knowledge that hidden NPCs exist there. If they don't, the time taken to get these skills to a tolerable level will be prohibitive.

That's what I said at the time. So long as your character has any IC reason to be in any of the cities, you should be able to get it up eventually. But I can see how listen for delves is going to be a pain.

It will be -beyond- easy for d-elves.

All d-elves have a tribe, right? If you travel slowly, in groups, your listen skill will go up faster than any other character type in the game, except maybe 'rinthers.

Oh, wait...but if you solo around in the wastes just pretending like you really belong to a tribe, yeah, you're boned.

I dont understand. How would listen go up for delves.  So you travel slowly, in groups. And then what? Not that many hunting parties adhere to the <only whispers in the sands> rule. Most simply talk. And if they talk, your listen wont improve. You have to 'fail' to overhear a conversation on the tables/whispers. So in a sense, only way a delfer would increase whisper, is by robbing himself of interaction via sitting at the Rose ,at the table where people arent at.

That said ... it's still easy to improve listen for a delf. Just do it the same way you learn sirihish. Find a wilderness place where people go to often. Mining/lumberjacking/etc. Hide ... and eavesdrop. Except for listen, you oughta do it one room away, I suppose.

[Lakota]

Sneaking checks against your listen skill. If you have high listen, you can hear people sneaking in.

That's what Synthesis was referring to in his above post.

[Olgaris]

I'm going to stop this now before it gets even more ridiculous.

Maxed hide trumps maxed scan anyday? Really? And you know this because....? This kind of speculation on the code does not have a place on the GDB. It's part of the mystery that is Armageddon.