Accidentally the next Called Shots thread.

[Qzzrbl]

Native Americans also had a little something 99.99% of all Zalanthans lack: METAL. Albeit, they could not mold nor harvest it in as great of quantities as today, though they certainly had more at their disposal than your average Zalanthian.

I -really- don't think Native Americans had metal until the Europeans came along.... It was all sticks and flint up to that point, IIRC.

But that's entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

There were technologies back in ancient times that not even modern science could re-create, but again, that's entirely irrelevant.

I think we're missing a rather important point here...A very skill archery/thrower can definitely shoot your arm or leg or chest, provided they pass the necessary roll of the dice. Having the ability to call your shots is already possible, don't you see? No code required. Problem solved.

Zalanthan archers =/= real life marksman, be them pistoleers, riflemen, or archers. They just simply aren't as good.

How can you call your shots? Answer me that. Some long-lost syntax?

Hoping that your arrow lands where you wanted it is not in any way calling a shot.

What makes you think that Zalanthan archers aren't as good as modern-day archers?

What your saying has little to no backing whatsoever.

Again, I'm not saying that calling a shot would guarantee a hit. Maybe a failed called archery shot attempt could yield an echo like, "the target is moving too quickly" or, "the target is too small" or something like that. Or you could shoot that arrow and miss entirely, alerting whatever you were shooting at to your presence, spooking it, or pissing it off.

And please don't get my thread locked.

[Lakota]

How can you call your shots? Answer me that. Some long-lost syntax?

Hoping that your arrow lands where you wanted it is not in any way calling a shot.

Tell a buddy you bet him five 'sid you can hit that ritikki in the head. Aim. Shoot. If you do, great, you just successfully called a shot! If you don't, oh well, guess your skill wasn't high enough. You can do this already with the archery skill. Comprende?

[Ammut]

Called shots remind me of the V.A.T.S. system in Fallout 3.

[Qzzrbl]

How can you call your shots? Answer me that. Some long-lost syntax?

Hoping that your arrow lands where you wanted it is not in any way calling a shot.

Tell a buddy you bet him five 'sid you can hit that ritikki in the head. Aim. Shoot. If you do, great, you just successfully called a shot! If you don't, oh well, guess your skill wasn't high enough. You can do this already with the archery skill. Comprende?

Alright, I'm starting to get what you're saying, but as it is, the code is determines what you're aiming at. The code could have you actually aiming at the foot, tail, everywhere else you didn't want that arrow to hit, and weren't even close to aiming at.

That's generally a variable over which the archer would have domain.

Though you did just get me thinking of an idea I could use to help expound a little more on called shots.... Excuse me as I think of how to put it into words.

::EDIT:: And a sudden -other- idea materializes.

Seeing as how guarding, listening, and watching and all that are slipping into Stun Point territory, perhaps calling a shot could drain a little stun while aiming?

Not something I'd really like to see, but, an idea's an idea.

[a strange shadow]

Please, no, stop before you hurt something.

The point is this: the better you are at archery, the more likely you are to hit a vital area. The code determines whether you are good enough to "call your shot" already; it is assumed that your character is always attempting to aim at the most vulnerable location. Called shots would change absolutely nothing. If, in real life, you call your shot for the center of the target, and end up hitting the outer ring, that was God's code telling you that you're not good enough at your archery skill.

Does that make sense?

[Qzzrbl]

Please, no, stop before you hurt something.

The point is this: the better you are at archery, the more likely you are to hit a vital area. The code determines whether you are good enough to "call your shot" already; it is assumed that your character is always attempting to aim at the most vulnerable location. Called shots would change absolutely nothing. If, in real life, you call your shot for the center of the target, and end up hitting the outer ring, that was God's code telling you that you're not good enough at your archery skill.

Does that make sense?

It does, sure, but what if I weren't even trying to hit a vital area?

Maybe I just wanted to wound my target a little?

I don't see why an archer can't risk a little bit of Stun, and risk being discovered because of the time it takes to aim just so, to get a higher chance of hitting exactly what you were specifically aiming at?

Also, say I'm this badass dart player, and I've reigned undefeated for years, and a buddy of mine makes a bet against me, promising me a cut if I throw the match.

Is it possible to be -so- great at darts on Zalanthas that your dart will slam into the King's circle when you wanted to hit the slave ring?

Maybe I want to throw people off and make them thing that I suck horribly with a bow, so I can catch them off-guard and blow them away when I turn on them with my raiding crew.

The code assumes that I want to do the most damage or be the greatest dart player in the world.

[a strange shadow]

That sounds like a case for a command to purposefully lower your abilities with something, rather than a case for called shots (which implies great skill). Combat would not be the only applicable area for characters who want to purposefully "fuck up".

[Qzzrbl]

I'm just listing other possibilities and uses for called shots other than trying "OMGWTFDESTROOOY!" stuff.

::EDIT:: I wouldn't even be against having a "miss" option for a target, so that one may intentionally miss their target.

[Lakota]

Alright, I'm starting to get what you're saying, but as it is, the code is determines what you're aiming at. The code could have you actually aiming at the foot, tail, everywhere else you didn't want that arrow to hit, and weren't even close to aiming at.

The code never has you aim at a specific body part to my knowledge. Rather, a virtual dice rolls a check against your current skill in archery. Depending on your roll, the point of impact and damage dealt will vary.

You can very easily "call" your shot and let the code determine whether you hit said target or not. That's what it currently does. You just haven't really thought of it that way thus far, I suppose.

I see very little gain with this idea. Sorry.

And if this idea were somehow implemented, I say please no to a stun drain. We already have enough negs against rangers. We don't need another.

[Qzzrbl]

Well as far as stun drain goes, calling an archery shot wouldn't be something you -need- to do. So if you don't want to spare the stun, don't call the shot.

I'm still exploring what you were saying earlier, so I'll reflect on that for a little while.

Now we know your thoughts on calling shots for archery, but what do you think of called shots for melee combat?

I'd like to hear you guys stand on that too.

[a strange shadow]

Stamina drain makes more sense than stun.

Not that I endorse this idea, but I'm violently opposed to stun drains on anything outside of the Way.

[Qzzrbl]

Stamina drain makes more sense than stun.

Not that I endorse this idea, but I'm violently opposed to stun drains on anything outside of the Way.

I'm vehemently against stun drain for anything but Way usage and blows to the head also, but the Staff made the call to incur changes to stun for certain skills taking certain degrees of concentration.

So...

-shrug-

[Lakota]

Now we know your thoughts on calling shots for archery, but what do you think of called shots for melee combat?

I'd like to hear you guys stand on that too.

Change the name of the skill involved. Apply my same reasoning. Voila.

[Qzzrbl]

Now we know your thoughts on calling shots for archery, but what do you think of called shots for melee combat?

I'd like to hear you guys stand on that too.

Change the name of the skill involved. Apply my same reasoning. Voila.

Right, but the idea behind the melee called shots was a little different, more or less holding back a little during a fight and waiting for an opening to a specific area, essentially ignoring all other openings in exchange for a slightly higher chance of hitting the targeted area.

Say your opponent is wearing godly armor on his head and neck, and you want to go for the weakest spot, we'll say the torso. You'll go just for the torso, ignoring the other heavily armored parts.

Maybe you just want to knock someone out quickly, and go just for the head for a few rounds of combat.

Sure, you could say "just use sap", but that's for the sneakies who try to sneak up on you and catch you off-guard on the reset button.

It's generally harder to knock someone out in combat, usually requiring two or three solid hits to the head to get someone down, at least to my experience.

---

Hrm.... I just caught myself wondering if the potential called shot system would be continuous throughout the fight, or just one called shot and return to regular combat, or maybe you could select more than one area to attack at once, concentrating only on those areas and ignoring openings everywhere else.

Hm...

[Lakota]

I could perhaps be inclined to support such a code change, though I am quite fond of ArmageddonMUD's combat. It's simplicity is eloquent and damned near close to perfect to me, short of having the wound code.

Ahem. Convince me further.

[Qzzrbl]

I could perhaps be inclined to support such a code change, though I am quite fond of ArmageddonMUD's combat. It's simplicity is eloquent and damned near close to perfect to me, short of having the wound code.

Ahem. Convince me further.

I'msa thinkin'.

[Rhyden]

One simply wouldn't be able to, "hit amos head; hit amos head; hit amos head; hit amos head; hit amos head;" and expect to win the fight, unless said fighter was just that badass.

But that's what would happen.

Aim head, or maybe neck. Nobody would aim for the legs, arms, wrists, body, or feet whether it's for called shots in archery or melee because there's no real point. Everyone would aim at the head or neck because naturally, that's where it would hurt the most. There's no cripple code to support shooting a leg. There's no disarming chance involved when you hit someone's arm. There's no advantage to aiming elsewhere, so everyone will aim for the head, making this idea redundant.

With the current code, you already are aiming for the head. You're trying to take down your opponent as quickly as possible. Your skill levels are factored into the dice roll that determines if you actually land a headshot or not.

The point is that you can do what you're trying to emote, rather than emoting what you're trying to do.

I think I prefer the latter. I'd rather emotes used as a backup to coded actions, at least when it comes to combat.

[Heade]

I don't support called shots that improve your chance to hit a specific area. This is already part of the system with normal attacking for the "critical" hits portion of why someone would want to use called shots. Don't believe me? Take a 20 day warrior up to a noob byn runner and attack him. Most likely, it'll be a quick combination of head/neck shots that ends the fight very quickly. So the default "called shot" location is the head/neck area. We don't need to give anyone a bonus to this. They already get it with sufficient martial skill.

As far as other reasons to have "called shots" I could see you wanting to purposely appear to suck at doing something. An easier way to do this is to add additional -nosave commands for abilities you're using, which will basically make you always fail. Of course, attempting to do something with the intention of failing could never teach you anything, but it would allow you to "sandbag" your competition in a game of darts.

As for just attempting to wound someone instead of killing them, I'd be all for a "maim" command, which would allow you to take a shot at someone's hamstring or achiles heel or something, with the intention of slowing them down(ie, applying a movement penalty + delay)

So far as using it as a "warning" shot, we already have ways IC to do this, either through archery code, or through emotes when it comes to melee.

So basically, recapping, I'm opposed to called shots that allow you to target -any- location, thereby getting a bonus to that location. It would be abused, because the location everyone would go for would be the head/neck anyhow, which is the current "aimed at" location, which you can tell by matching up a 20 day warrior to a noobie. If it didn't give a bonus to the attack to hit that location, and only made you fail to strike them in other areas, it would be rarely used anyhow, so there's no reason to implement it otherwise.

[Qzzrbl]

One simply wouldn't be able to, "hit amos head; hit amos head; hit amos head; hit amos head; hit amos head;" and expect to win the fight, unless said fighter was just that badass.

But that's what would happen.

Aim head, or maybe neck. Nobody would aim for the legs, arms, wrists, body, or feet whether it's for called shots in archery or melee because there's no real point. Everyone would aim at the head or neck because naturally, that's where it would hurt the most. There's no cripple code to support shooting a leg. There's no disarming chance involved when you hit someone's arm. There's no advantage to aiming elsewhere, so everyone will aim for the head, making this idea redundant.

With the current code, you already are aiming for the head. You're trying to take down your opponent as quickly as possible. Your skill levels are factored into the dice roll that determines if you actually land a headshot or not.

The point is that you can do what you're trying to emote, rather than emoting what you're trying to do.

I think I prefer the latter. I'd rather emotes used as a backup to coded actions, at least when it comes to combat.

Of course you could try to spam it, but just as I said, don't expect to win the fight. You forget that key little tidbit at the end "unless you were just that badass".

The entire time you're looking for an opening to the opponent's head, with only a slight increased chance to hit the head, while ignoring all other openings, the other guy would still be tearing into you while you wait for an opening that isn't guaranteed to present itself in the first place. Unless you were a pretty skilled warrior, spamming headshots would get you killed. Called shots in melee would be nigh useless to a newbie character, unless he was against a painfully newblier character.

"But then really experienced warriors would just spam headshots!"

So?

That's part of being a skilled, long-lived warrior.

Parrying a blade to the side and snapping forward with a head/neck shot shouldn't be unheard of. Hell, experienced, long-lived warriors do it anyway, and that makes it a biiiiiiiiitch to try to spar with them because they come forward with nothing but head/neck shots. This idea isn't -just- to give a bonus to head/neck shots. It's got other uses. Like that uberwarrior sparring partner aiming for less death-prone areas.

People seem to go blind for a second or two when they read over my proposed negatives to using this proposed system.

I'm still trying to think up more checks and balances to it all so that it wouldn't be easily abused, and I'm more than open to suggestions if anyone's got any.

[Heade]

People seem to go blind for a second or two when they read over my proposed negatives to using this proposed system.

I'm still trying to think up more checks and balances to it all so that it wouldn't be easily abused, and I'm more than open to suggestions if anyone's got any.

See my post above. People also have a tendancy to "go blind" when they've got an idea they want everyone else to get behind, because they don't want to look at the potential flaws of their own system. I know, I'm guilty of it myself, I'm sure. But take a step back and think about it from a coded perspective. No bonus is necessary. No new syntax is necessary to facilitate an ass-whoopin from a warrior skilled enough to give you one. He's already aiming for your head. Other commands, however, that don't give a warrior quicker coded ability to end your life, I may support. As I said, see above.

[Zoan]

I approve, but mostly for the negative potential. I like the idea of missing my opponent deliberately, or whacking him on the foot/wrist whilst sparring. Why the hell would I beat the crap out of Recruit Amos' head on his first day of sparring? I got nothing to prove, and am supposed to be training the kid, not killing him.

[musashi]

I approve, but mostly for the negative potential. I like the idea of missing my opponent deliberately, or whacking him on the foot/wrist whilst sparring. Why the hell would I beat the crap out of Recruit Amos' head on his first day of sparring? I got nothing to prove, and am supposed to be training the kid, not killing him.

I would like the ability for high level warriors and the like to willingly tone down their skills as well, but I don't think a called shot system is needed for it. Perhaps a nosave option, and/or a toggle to make it so that one can refuse to attack back during melee would solve the problem with little in the way of additional code.

To be a little more fluid, I would like the aforementioned nosave feature to have 2 options ... one that basicallys cuts the PC's skill level by 50 %, and another than makes them intentionally fail (with no chance of skill gain in either case, obviously). That way a person could cover both instances; wanting to miss on purpose, and just wanting to cut someone a break.

[Lakota]

I would like the ability for high level warriors and the like to willingly tone down their skills as well.

Fight bare-handed. With a shield and no weapon. With a weapon you're unfamiliar with. Miss a bash and fight sitting the rest of the match. There are ways.

[musashi]

There are ways, but I feel like they're clunky. The same way people complain about the brawl code I think ... yes it's doable, but a smoother method would also be nice.

[Reiloth]

There are ways, but I feel like they're clunky. The same way people complain about the brawl code I think ... yes it's doable, but a smoother method would also be nice.

I agree with Musashi here. I believe Warriors should be able to use the weapon of their choice, and beyond mercy on, choose to -really- hold back their blows. I find it a bit silly when my warriors have to use a dagger, which ICly would make no sense, just because they will just about murdify any n00b they choose to spar with.

As far as called shots, in combat or ranged, I wouldn't like to see it in game unless penalties were applied to being hit just about anywhere on the damn body. Which is something I fully support, along the lines of 7DV's posts. Hands -- Chance to cripple weapon hand, to the point where the victim can't attack while holding a weapon in that hand, and would have to switch. It would have a chance of someone dropping their shield. Wrists -- A chance for a very small bonus to disarm, and subtract from the victim Parry and Disarm. If opponent is using piercing or slashing weapon, critical hit will 'bleed' the target for a certain duration. Build up will lead to more HP loss, and less HP regen. Legs -- Reduce movement speed and agility for a short duration, that builds up with hits over time. The longer combat goes on, the less maximum stamina one should have. Stamina should be affected by wearing heavy armor, over time. There's a lot of 'realistic' changes that can be made to the combat code.

While the simplicity of Armageddon's combat code allows for efficiency, it is also completely boring and droll. Warriors basically just jizz themselves when they can pwn pretty much anyone in straight ahead combat, and disarm constantly. There is more to melee combat than just trying to hit the guy in the head as hard as you can. Coding it will be difficult -- But it would be nice if Arm's combat system had more finesse, in some respect.

PS: While it sounds silly -- If coded 'called shots' are added for offense, something similar should be added for defense. >set defense upper (Head, neck, arms, body) >set defense middle (Arms, body, waist) >set defense lower (body, waist, legs, feetz).