Sdescs over the Way -- A Suggestion and Discussion

[NoteworthyFellow]

Nyr suggested in the barrier thread that this topic (sdesc sniffing over the Way) receive its own thread, so here it is!

Sdesc sniffing through contacting someone is a potentially plot-ruining little feature that many would like to see gone.  I assume many feel differently, as well, but here's my suggestion.

When you first contact someone, you don't see the sdesc of the person you contacted.

Code Select Expand

> contact amos
You suffer from use of the Way.
Your mind makes contact with another.

Or some sort of echo like that, you get the idea.  Then, if you psi them, you do send your own sdesc with the message; the same goes for if someone else sends you a telepathic message.  Therefore, sdescs will always be sent with telepathic messages.

Now, for a new command: image.

Code Select Expand

> contact amos
You suffer from use of the Way.
Your mind makes contact with another.

> image
You suffer from use of the Way.
The image of the tall, muscular man appears in your head.

Therefore, you can consciously attempt to see the person you're contacting.  What good does this do someone who doesn't want their sdesc sniffed, then?  Well, the delay from contact that the initiator will incur gives the contacted one time to use expel or simply put their barrier back up, thus blocking the image attempt.

I also suggest another setting for nosave, nosave image.  By default, your character will not try to resist someone mentally imagining them over the Way (just like with nosave arrest); if you toggle that nosave off, then your character will attempt to resist being mentally "seen," and the roll could use the initiator's contact skill vs. the target's barrier skill.  If you fail the roll, you won't know you've been mentally "seen;" if you succeed, you will.  If you don't save against it, you won't know, either.

With nosave image off, then, if you succeed your save:

Code Select Expand

>
A foreign presence contacts your mind.

>
You feel a mental eye scanning you and mentally block it.

Or something that sounds less terrible.

Thoughts?

[fourTwenty]

I actually like this idea.

Most of it anyway. I like the idea of not having your sdesc pop-up until you way something back. As far as <Image> goes I'd say either make it a psion ability or toss it out completely. You shouldn't know what I look like if I don't Way back to you.

[Archbaron]

I've been for an idea like this for a while.

[Qzzrbl]

I won all of Delstro's karma for this idea, so I reckon it's worth throwing in here too.

Why don't we make it to where a character meeting another character decides what keyword to use?

Amos meets Malik, the tall, muscular man. Up to this point, Amos has to use Malik's sdesc to target him. Malik introduces himself as Jak.

Amos types in "Keyword the tall, muscular man; Jak"

Gets the echo, "You now know the tall, muscular man as Jak"

And from then on out, Amos can refer to Malik as Jak, or any other nickname he so chooses to give him.

Sdescs cannot be used for contacting someone, because there are likely a thousand other tall, muscular men in the world at any given moment.

[tortall]

I actually like this idea.

Most of it anyway. I like the idea of not having your sdesc pop-up until you way something back. As far as <Image> goes I'd say either make it a psion ability or toss it out completely. You shouldn't know what I look like if I don't Way back to you.

I agree

I won all of Delstro's karma for this idea, so I reckon it's worth throwing in here too.

Why don't we make it to where a character meeting another character decides what keyword to use?

Amos meets Malik, the tall, muscular man. Up to this point, Amos has to use Malik's sdesc to target him. Malik introduces himself as Jak.

Amos types in "Keyword the tall, muscular man; Jak"

Gets the echo, "You now know the tall, muscular man as Jak"

And from then on out, Amos can refer to Malik as Jak, or any other nickname he so chooses to give him.

Sdescs cannot be used for contacting someone, because there are likely a thousand other tall, muscular men in the world at any given moment.

Seeing as how if Malik adds one of his keywords HIMSELF as Jak, you should be able to contact him AS Jak.

I personally don't use keywords to contact people unless they have a common name. Contact amos large(the large musculal man named amos).

[Qzzrbl]

I won all of Delstro's karma for this idea, so I reckon it's worth throwing in here too.

Why don't we make it to where a character meeting another character decides what keyword to use?

Amos meets Malik, the tall, muscular man. Up to this point, Amos has to use Malik's sdesc to target him. Malik introduces himself as Jak.

Amos types in "Keyword the tall, muscular man; Jak"

Gets the echo, "You now know the tall, muscular man as Jak"

And from then on out, Amos can refer to Malik as Jak, or any other nickname he so chooses to give him.

Sdescs cannot be used for contacting someone, because there are likely a thousand other tall, muscular men in the world at any given moment.

Seeing as how if Malik adds one of his keywords HIMSELF as Jak, you should be able to contact him AS Jak.

Why?

Malik knows himself as Jak.

But Amos has no idea Jak's real name is Malik, nor does he know that Jak is an alias.

How should Amos know that Jak = Malik?



::EDIT:: The idea is, a player doesn't add keywords to himself. Other than his sdesc, which probably wouldn't be contactable, he will have no keywords.

Other players will add keywords for him to their own little keyword "bank" for that character.

[touringCompl3t3]

Original poster's idea definitely has potential.

Here's another idea -- each character has both a physical sdesc and a mental sdesc

example:

Bob
physcical: the tall, muscular man
mental: the focused, fiery mind


yes?

[tortall]

Why?

Malik knows himself as Jak.

But Amos has no idea Jak's real name is Malik, nor does he know that Jak is an alias.

How should Amos know that Jak = Malik?



::EDIT:: The idea is, a player doesn't add keywords to himself. Other than his sdesc, which probably wouldn't be contactable, he will have no keywords.

Other players will add keywords for him to their own little keyword "bank" for that character.

Because it's not something worth putting in/changing. If Malik is too lazy to add a name to his keywords that he chose to introduce himself as, then why should Amos be able to contact him? With the way it currently stands, if Malik does NOT add Jak as a keyword:
1) Amos's player will KNOW it's not his real name and it will be VERY hard to keep that information ooc.
2) Amos trys to contact "Jak". He cannot reach the "Jak" he is looking for.

So again, why does this need to be changed?

[Qzzrbl]

I mean, if Amos adds the keyword "Jak" for Malik, and he types "contact Jak" he will contact Malik.

Amos knows Malik as "Jak" and for all intents and purposes, Jak is Malik's name to Amos.

When Amos thinks of Jak, he thinks of Malik, and can thusly connect that name to him, and will be able to contact Malik using "Jak".

Since Amos doesn't know that "Jak's" real name is Malik, he will not be able to contact "Jak" using 'Contact Malik'.

Malik doesn't need to add "Jak" to his keywords for Amos to contact him.

It doesn't makes sense for someone to be able to contact another person they've never met/seen before using their name or sdesc.

[Nusku]

Personally (i.e. this is not a staff position I am advocating) I like the idea of having a "psionic sdesc" that you create at character generation. This sdesc would be used in lieu of someone's actual sdesc when you contact them. This psionic sdesc could be a representation of their personality, their mental self-image, etc.

Example:
Bob - the short, dark man (real sdesc) also has "a fizzing ball of purple goo" as his psionic sdesc.
Sandy - the tall, blond woman (real sdesc) also has "a bloody, bruised fist" as her psionic sdesc.

Bob attempts to contact Sandy -
> contact Sandy
You contact <a bloody, bruised fist>.

Sandy attempts to contact Bob -
> contact fizzing ball goo
You contact <a fizzing ball of purple goo>.

Bob attempts to contact Sandy -
> contact tall blond woman
You contact <a bloody, bruised fist>.

The psionic sdesc would not be available to use as keywords for anything besides psionics; that is, "look fizzing" wouldn't target Bob.

However... that being said, I think people get a bit too uptight about "sdesc sniffing." A hooded cloak is not a magick illusion that prevents people from getting a look at your features. On the other hand, I think we should entertain the idea of "levels of hiddenness." A cloak with a deep enough hood to really mask you from being identified is going to have drawbacks - loss of peripheral vision and hearing are going to impact skills like scan, listen, and watch. A facewrap that is opaque enough to conceal your facial features might cut down your visual range by a room. In other words, if we're going to implement items that are really and truly designed to make someone difficult to identify, I'm ok with that, but there have to be tradeoffs.

[Riev]

As much as Qzzrbl's post makes my brain.... something....


I've always had a small issue with people not adding keywords to themselves because they don't want them. I -do-, please believe me, understand the reason not to. I'm the type of guy that says "Wow, they're nicknaming me Tuluk... maybe I'll addkeyword that"

But maybe the OP is a good idea, in that addkeyword is actually for -other- people. Type in an sdesc, a separator, and a name. Might cause a bit of added Space to contain it all, but it makes a little more sense.

Maybe Jak, to me, is "Jakhal-face". I would want to contact jakhal-face to get into contact with him. Maybe it would just be a serverside alias at that point? When "Jakhal-Face's Sdesc" contacts you, it aliases to just "Jakhal-Face", so Jakhal-face says to you over the way: "Cut that out".



Maybe not for this incarnation, but a good idea?

[Lizzie]

It doesn't makes sense for someone to be able to contact another person they've never met/seen before using their name or sdesc.

I'm not sure why it needs to make sense. It's a matter of playability. You'd end up with new players sitting at the bar, waiting for RL weeks to find a Byn Sergeant, all because the Sergeant happens to be in the other city on a mission. Even if he's posted on the tavern board that he's looking to hire, that he can be found, that this is his name, and this is what he looks like

Or if your GMH Merchant is stuck in meetings between the estate and the Ghaati Teahouse for a RL week, and just plain can't make it to the Sanctuary, and you miss out on a dozen 2000-sid orders from nobles who know you exist, know your name, know what you look like, whose aides buy from you all the time, and you're having sex with three of their guards, these nobles even know about the mole on your thigh, but they can't find your mind just because they've never met you.

That, to me, makes much less sense than being able to way someone if you know their sdesc, a keyword, or a name, without ever having met that person, in person. The whole point of psionics is to reach -beyond- the body and directly into the mind and thoughts. I personally find it amusing to try to contact "maria" and end up contacting the brown-eyed gith NPC who also happens to be named Maria, just because the Maria I'm trying to find is either dead or not logged in and the gith is the first available Maria in the game. It's fun to RP that out...maybe some day of having experienced this one too many times, actually try to TALK to this gith. Maybe offer to meet her for tea, or poached SLK Elf on a Stick or something.

[FantasyWriter]

However... that being said, I think people get a bit too uptight about "sdesc sniffing." A hooded cloak is not a magick illusion that prevents people from getting a look at your features. On the other hand, I think we should entertain the idea of "levels of hiddenness." A cloak with a deep enough hood to really mask you from being identified is going to have drawbacks - loss of peripheral vision and hearing are going to impact skills like scan, listen, and watch. A facewrap that is opaque enough to conceal your facial features might cut down your visual range by a room. In other words, if we're going to implement items that are really and truly designed to make someone difficult to identify, I'm ok with that, but there have to be tradeoffs.

I for one would like to see this:
1)  It is very realistic.
2)  The trade off truly hiding sdesc from people (no way phishing), IMHO, would be quite worth it.

[Qzzrbl]

It doesn't makes sense for someone to be able to contact another person they've never met/seen before using their name or sdesc.

I'm not sure why it needs to make sense. It's a matter of playability. You'd end up with new players sitting at the bar, waiting for RL weeks to find a Byn Sergeant, all because the Sergeant happens to be in the other city on a mission. Even if he's posted on the tavern board that he's looking to hire, that he can be found, that this is his name, and this is what he looks like

Or if your GMH Merchant is stuck in meetings between the estate and the Ghaati Teahouse for a RL week, and just plain can't make it to the Sanctuary, and you miss out on a dozen 2000-sid orders from nobles who know you exist, know your name, know what you look like, whose aides buy from you all the time, and you're having sex with three of their guards, these nobles even know about the mole on your thigh, but they can't find your mind just because they've never met you.

That, to me, makes much less sense than being able to way someone if you know their sdesc, a keyword, or a name, without ever having met that person, in person. The whole point of psionics is to reach -beyond- the body and directly into the mind and thoughts. I personally find it amusing to try to contact "maria" and end up contacting the brown-eyed gith NPC who also happens to be named Maria, just because the Maria I'm trying to find is either dead or not logged in and the gith is the first available Maria in the game. It's fun to RP that out...maybe some day of having experienced this one too many times, actually try to TALK to this gith. Maybe offer to meet her for tea, or poached SLK Elf on a Stick or something.

Here's an amazing idea that will change the face of Zalanthas entirely.

Ask around.

You want to find a Byn sergeant? Ask around at the Gaj. Ask people to pass the word along that you're looking for a Byn sergeant. Interact with other players.

You're a noble looking for a merchant, but can't find said merchant, but your guards and aides do? Ask your aides/guards to get in touch with him, since they already know him and all.

Ask around and interact with other players, see if anyone else you know can contact this merchant so you can set up a meeting.

It's a truly amazing concept, I know, but I think it can be done.

[NoteworthyFellow]

However... that being said, I think people get a bit too uptight about "sdesc sniffing." A hooded cloak is not a magick illusion that prevents people from getting a look at your features. On the other hand, I think we should entertain the idea of "levels of hiddenness." A cloak with a deep enough hood to really mask you from being identified is going to have drawbacks - loss of peripheral vision and hearing are going to impact skills like scan, listen, and watch. A facewrap that is opaque enough to conceal your facial features might cut down your visual range by a room. In other words, if we're going to implement items that are really and truly designed to make someone difficult to identify, I'm ok with that, but there have to be tradeoffs.

I for one would like to see this:
1)  It is very realistic.
2)  The trade off truly hiding sdesc from people (no way phishing), IMHO, would be quite worth it.

I dig this and 100% support it.

[Lizzie]

What does that have to do with the "reality" of the situation Q? I'm not complaining that you can't find a Byn Sarge. I'm saying that IF you are trying to find one, and you have -alreadylearned-:

1. The Byn Sarge definitely exists.
2. You have learned that yes, he is hiring.
3. You have learned that his name is Amos.
4. You have asked around and learned from the only two runners who got stuck not going on the mission that he is on a mission, and has been for a week, but is alive and well at last report.
5. You have asked around and learned he is a tall man with muscular muscles and length in his torso.
6. You have also learned that he's been fucking your PC sister Susie for months, and she has described every intimate detail about his naked self and you could probably identify him blindfolded based solely on the bumps on his penis...

and yet

You can't way him because you've never met him.

I find that makes zero sense whatsoever.

[Archbaron]

Original poster's idea definitely has potential.

Here's another idea -- each character has both a physical sdesc and a mental sdesc

example:

Bob
physcical: the tall, muscular man
mental: the focused, fiery mind


yes?

Yes.

[Nusku]

Ask around and interact with other players, see if anyone else you know can contact this merchant so you can set up a meeting.

It's a truly amazing concept, I know, but I think it can be done.

The logistics of playing times and in-game population density make this an unlikely prospect at best. If I had a dollar for every wish that went something like, "I've been looking for a Byn Sergeant for two weeks RL, can someone animate this NPC?" I could pay off my mortgage. Sometimes pragmatism for the sake of gameplay has to take precedence over other considerations.

[Riev]

Original poster's idea definitely has potential.

Here's another idea -- each character has both a physical sdesc and a mental sdesc

example:

Bob
physcical: the tall, muscular man
mental: the focused, fiery mind

Can I have all my mental Sdescs be the same? Also, can there be duplicate Psi-Sdescs? What if two people REALLY like having an agafari-colored castle for a mind?

Regardless of the policing, I think that would help. When you tell someone to go find Amos, you can say "You'll know you've found his mind when you feel like if you see any more blue, you'll throw up" because his mind is "the azure-field of blue flowers".

God -damn- would that be better than:

contact the-only-damn-amos-in-game
psi hey, is this Amos?

[Reiloth]

What does that have to do with the "reality" of the situation Q? I'm not complaining that you can't find a Byn Sarge. I'm saying that IF you are trying to find one, and you have -alreadylearned-:

1. The Byn Sarge definitely exists.
2. You have learned that yes, he is hiring.
3. You have learned that his name is Amos.
4. You have asked around and learned from the only two runners who got stuck not going on the mission that he is on a mission, and has been for a week, but is alive and well at last report.
5. You have asked around and learned he is a tall man with muscular muscles and length in his torso.
6. You have also learned that he's been fucking your PC sister Susie for months, and she has described every intimate detail about his naked self and you could probably identify him blindfolded based solely on the bumps on his penis...

and yet

You can't way him because you've never met him.

I find that makes zero sense whatsoever.

I find psychic abilities to make zero sense whatsoever.

Realism doesn't really come into play when you are talking about a fantastical concept. The way, as it is used now, is like a cell-phone. I find it silly, unrealistic, and kind of jarring and bizarre. I would be giddy with joy if we just...Did away with mundane use of the way entirely!

However, beside this point, I think Nusku's concept of different levels of 'hiddenness' applied to objects is an astounding, fresh idea. A wide brimmed hat may provide some obscurity from a distance of, say, two leagues. "There! A man with a hat, over there!". But upon entering the room, the person's sdesc would be apparent. It may make running from the authorities, or getting 'lost in the crowd' a bit easier, if peoples sdesc's weren't blatant from a MILE away, through a crowd of thousands of vNPC's. It would be nice if it randomly took some article of their clothing as an identifier, and perhaps that changes depending on who's looking at them.

So a woman wearing a black turban, white linen pants and a shirt, and a bright red cloak might show to someone a few rooms away as "The person wearing a bright red cloak stands here", or "The person wearing a black turban stands here". That may change from person to person, so if you and your friend Dan are chasing a 'rinth-rat into a throng of people, it would be relatively easy for the person to get away. Unless you were watching them. Then, their sdesc remains, they don't blend into the crowd at all from a distance.

Just a thought.

[Nusku]

A wide brimmed hat may provide some obscurity from a distance of, say, two leagues. "There! A man with a hat, over there!".

"Suspect is hatless. I repeat, hatless."

[Fathi]

A wide brimmed hat may provide some obscurity from a distance of, say, two leagues. "There! A man with a hat, over there!".

"Suspect is hatless. I repeat, hatless."

I had a character with a sdesc-hiding hat once.

It was pretty much the best thing ever.

Edit: I pictured it as basically walking around with a bucket on her head or something. A very large bucket that she could somehow see out of.

[Qzzrbl]

What does that have to do with the "reality" of the situation Q? I'm not complaining that you can't find a Byn Sarge. I'm saying that IF you are trying to find one, and you have -alreadylearned-:

1. The Byn Sarge definitely exists.
2. You have learned that yes, he is hiring.
3. You have learned that his name is Amos.
4. You have asked around and learned from the only two runners who got stuck not going on the mission that he is on a mission, and has been for a week, but is alive and well at last report.
5. You have asked around and learned he is a tall man with muscular muscles and length in his torso.
6. You have also learned that he's been fucking your PC sister Susie for months, and she has described every intimate detail about his naked self and you could probably identify him blindfolded based solely on the bumps on his penis...

and yet

You can't way him because you've never met him.

I find that makes zero sense whatsoever.

How can you establish a mental connection with someone just from knowing what they look like?

He could probably have a twin somewhere.

Those bumps on his penis and that mole on his ass could be a magickal disguise.

His hair might not really be black, but dyed some other color.

Maybe he lost his nose and both eyes on that mission?

Amos might not even be his real name.

Maybe he binged on candy and gained 200 pounds.

-shrug-

[Lizzie]

And maybe it has nothing to do with realism Q, and everything to do with playability and pragmatism, as Nusku, myself, and a few others have said.

[Qzzrbl]

And maybe it has nothing to do with realism Q, and everything to do with playability and pragmatism, as Nusku, myself, and a few others have said.

Well, the way it is now makes it very hard to hide one's identity.

Especially with barrier being knocked out at the initiation of combat.

It's now become very unplayable and nigh impossible for raiders and other players of that sort to do their thing.

::EDIT:: Where'd all the people who once supported my idea go? 

::2.EDIT:: And I'm still having a little trouble seeing how my idea will make the game terribly much more unplayable.

If a player can't find a Byn sergeant for over two RL weeks, then it's very unlikely that any sergeants are even online when that player is, so this idea wouldn't make that problem any worse.

::3.EDIT:: Also, this idea encourages player interaction while making it easier for people to hide their identity if they so choose to. I thought that was a good thing?

[Delstro]

As much as Qzzrbl's post makes my brain.... something...

I've always had a small issue with people not adding keywords to themselves because they don't want them. I -do-, please believe me, understand the reason not to. I'm the type of guy that says "Wow, they're nicknaming me Tuluk... maybe I'll addkeyword that"

This is null and void if we add keywords to PCs that only we can use.

Qzzrbl's idea is ingenious. It makes my head explode at how awesome it is. Just because I have the keyword snuzzle bunny for a keyword because that is what my mudlover call me, doesn't mean the alleyrat from the opposite city-state should also know me as snuzzle bunny. Qzzrbl's idea is for Amos.1 to give Markus.1 the keyword of playahata. That is Amos' secret name for Markus' and Amos' gang. Now, in the current game, Calla.1 (Who was told to find Playahata by a third party) can walk up to Markus and go "Look playahata."

Right now, Markus would have to convince the player of Calla that Call didn't know his name is playahata. With Qzzrbl's awesome idea, Callas player would actually have to ask other Pcs around here before finally locating Markus.1.

Someone once told me that to fool the character, you have to fool the player. Right now, you can't fool the character, so you can't fool the player. If the player knows for 100% fact that you are playahata, then you can't convince them otherwise. If they are a stellar roleplayer, you can RP with them and they will be convinced ICly, but come back to you tomorrow and say, "Oh, so-and-so told me you are playahata." When in fact so-and-so did not. Qzzrbl's idea would make so many ideas a lot more doable and fun.

[Riev]

I would throw my hat in to having keywords for -other- people instead of for yourself. I don't know the code, so I don't know how much of a workaround it would be, but if you want to be known as "Jason", tell people your name is Jason. They'll have to addkeyword (or whatever) if they want to call you by anything other than "the burly man in the hockey mask".


Though, I admit, that would be more work on the Player's part to remember to add things...

[touringCompl3t3]

...

Someone once told me that to fool the character, you have to fool the player. ...

I like that.  I think that ought to be added to advice for new players, "If you plan to play a thief, you'll have to outsmart other players entirely"

=-)

[Yam]

I have absolutely no problem with how the Way currently works.

[tortall]

Then why bother creating a name when you name a character? Then you can use ANY NAME YOU WANT! No one can randomly guess that you are amos.

NOTE: I think this is a stupid idea, but that seems to be where other people are going.



So, maybe I've just been away too long, and this is why I don't understand the need for this idea.

How does sdesc snuffing so seriously effect the playerbase, that we need to change how names work?

[fourTwenty]

How does sdesc snuffing so seriously effect the playerbase, that we need to change how names work?

Because the sneaky classes in this game could be enormously fun but they need a lot of work. Sdesc sniffing via the Way is an OOC tool used by certain members of the playerbase to circumvent IC circumstances. And its twinky as hell.

[Qzzrbl]

I've always heard of "back in the day" when raiders ran rampant.

As did thieves and burglars.

A time when going outside the gates was actually dangerous, not only because of the NPCs, but because of other players too.

I've never been raided once.

I've only been burglarized once.

And I've never been inclined to try to play either, because it's so easy to "contact cloak" *get sdesc*.

The basic response to this problem was once, "Just use barrier."

But now we just can't do that, due to recent changes.

Besides, the idea will encourage interaction and will help sneakies keep their identities a secret if they want to.

Plus, it just kinda makes sense that if Amos told me his name was "Jak", I wouldn't be able to identify him as "Amos". Why? Because I'm not a mind-reader.

With the current system, Amos can tell me his name is Jak, but because I suspect that he might be Amos, I can just type "look amos" and confirm my suspicions, leaving me unconvinced OOCly, and making most IC decisions IG that depended on him not being Amos shaky.

This makes it impossible to play criminals who don't avoid most any and all PC contact.

I want more crime.

I want to be raided.

I want to be stolen from.

I want this game to be -harsh-, like it says it's supposed to be.

[tortall]

How does sdesc snuffing so seriously effect the playerbase, that we need to change how names work?

Because the sneaky classes in this game could be enormously fun but they need a lot of work. Sdesc sniffing via the Way is an OOC tool used by certain members of the playerbase to circumvent IC circumstances. And its twinky as hell.

From my understanding, however, they could only find you if you had your hood up. Or they wouldn't find you with contact figure. Seeing as how other sneaky types are the only ones that walk around a lot with their hoods up.... What's the big deal?


Qzzrbl:
I see what you're saying, but why would you have ANY clue that this person who introduced himself as Jak is actually Amos? I have NEVER been in a situation like that. Maybe I'm jus missing out on part of the game. I still see no need for it.

[a strange shadow]

I was going to make a mildly bitter, snarky post, but I thought the better of it.

Instead, I will invite people to look at what sort of guilds fulfill those roles (raiders, thieves, spies) in the game today, and then to consider why, and try to be part of the solution, rather than a continuation of the problem.

[fourTwenty]

Maybe I'm just missing out on part of the game. I still see no need for it.

Maybe you just answered your own question. It's not always <contact figure>. If I go through the trouble of knocking you out instead of killing you, and ...Well, other things in order to be a successful Raider... I shouldn't have it all shot to shit because I want people to start fearing the Raider in The Masky mask of maskyness.

This kind of shit could make for some fun and interesting RP for a lot of players. It -could- if it was not possible to contact Masky and get my sdesc. And no, barrier will not prevent this, please refer to X-D's post on how barrier functions

[Qzzrbl]

How does sdesc snuffing so seriously effect the playerbase, that we need to change how names work?

Because the sneaky classes in this game could be enormously fun but they need a lot of work. Sdesc sniffing via the Way is an OOC tool used by certain members of the playerbase to circumvent IC circumstances. And its twinky as hell.

From my understanding, however, they could only find you if you had your hood up. Or they wouldn't find you with contact figure. Seeing as how other sneaky types are the only ones that walk around a lot with their hoods up.... What's the big deal?


Qzzrbl:
I see what you're saying, but why would you have ANY clue that this person who introduced himself as Jak is actually Amos? I have NEVER been in a situation like that. Maybe I'm jus missing out on part of the game. I still see no need for it.

There are plenty of situations in which I might OOCly suspect anyone of being someone else.

Let's say I have to deliver a secret message to Jak, and if anyone named "Amos" hears a single word of it, then the entire plan is ruined and you'll die.

I lack restraint in situations like this, and I know I'm not the only one who will throw out a "l Amos" before relaying the message to Jak. If that makes me a bad player, then have peace of mind that I have no karma.

My idea makes it to where you can fully convince someone not only ICly, but also OOCly that you are not Amos. This opens up countless possibilities for stuff not possible with the current system.

And again, it'll give everyone more than enough reason to interact with eachother.

And about the hood up thing, I'm not about to leave my hood down as I rush past you outside of your apartment after breaking in and pissing on your bed. As I'm running, you could easily, "contact figure" and get my sdesc as I make my escape. It's happened before.

::Edited to add:: And you're missing out on that part of the game because nobody does it anymore. Because it's so easy to get caught.

[Reiloth]

I've always heard of "back in the day" when raiders ran rampant.

As did thieves and burglars.

A time when going outside the gates was actually dangerous, not only because of the NPCs, but because of other players too.

I've never been raided once.

I've only been burglarized once.

And I've never been inclined to try to play either, because it's so easy to "contact cloak" *get sdesc*.

The basic response to this problem was once, "Just use barrier."

But now we just can't do that, due to recent changes.

Besides, the idea will encourage interaction and will help sneakies keep their identities a secret if they want to.

Plus, it just kinda makes sense that if Amos told me his name was "Jak", I wouldn't be able to identify him as "Amos". Why? Because I'm not a mind-reader.

With the current system, Amos can tell me his name is Jak, but because I suspect that he might be Amos, I can just type "look amos" and confirm my suspicions, leaving me unconvinced OOCly, and making most IC decisions IG that depended on him not being Amos shaky.

This makes it impossible to play criminals who don't avoid most any and all PC contact.

I want more crime.

I want to be raided.

I want to be stolen from.

I want this game to be -harsh-, like it says it's supposed to be.

I fail to see what the problem is, as I believe it would be just as hard to contact another person during combat. You are worried that they will flee and contact you?

[Qzzrbl]

Code Select Expand


Barrer
You've set up a barrier, yo.

tell merchant (viciously pointing ~sword at !merchant) Stand and deliver! One look at me and ya's dead! Eyes to th' sand!
Viciously pointing your sword at the scared little merchant, the cloaked raider exclaims, "Stand and deliver! One look at me an' ya's dead, eyes to th' sand!"

The scared little merchant attacks you.
You feel your mental barrier fading away
The scared little merchant flees

thinking oocly: "Shit, shit, shit, shit.

Barrier
You fail to set up a barrier.

Barrier
You fail to set up a barrier.

You feel a foreign presence contact your mind.

You feel a foreign presence withdraw from your mind

Not to mention all of the other crazy awesome things that will be possible if anything similar to the idea is implimented.

[Delstro]

The importance of picking a name at creation.. Well. There is a lot of power in a true name. That is all that should be said about that.

I have tried to play a spy before and got killed. Why? Because I had my other name as a keyword, a name I did not use at all in this opposite city state. I changed my sdesc, mdesc, and was only killed because of one name they did not know me as and they were absolutely convinced I was him -just- by them being told my -other- name. That sucks.
I once tried to have a raider that inspired terror in those traveling. I raided a person, waited until they were out of sight, and as soon as that happened, I removed my cloak. To inspire fear and awe as a raider, you need to look roughly the same so people can relate stories and tell how awesome you are. My third raid, and 7 days playing time as a warrior with awesome stats, I get Someone contacts you, then breaks contact. I get back to the city state I live out of, the opposite city state I raid near, and I was killed for being a raider. Awesome. teh suck.
Same situation with a pickpocket.
Same situation with an assassin.

Qzzrbl's idea would make all of those situations highly unlikely. That is why he has my *censored* Karma.

[Qzzrbl]

Qzzrbl's idea would make all of those situations highly unlikely. That is why she has my *censored* Karma.

Dude, what's with the gender confusion in the GDB?

[Delstro]

Typo.

[Ammut]

I far too often have people contact me, then withdraw shortly after.  Here I am, thinking I'm going to get to talk to someone new and exciting, but they let me down 

I am all for the earlier suggestion to have an 'image' command to draw upon their sdesc, allowing the one being contacted to expel the mind of the intruder and keep their anonymity.  Obviously if you don't force them out quick enough they could find out who you are, but it would at least give the one being contacted a chance.

[musashi]

Um ... I dunno if this idea has ever been tossed out but ... how about when you contact a person who's sdesc is hidden because of a cloak/hood/whatever ... ...

... ...

... ... the description you're given via the way ... is that same cloak/hood/whatever concealed description you tried to contact.

[Bushranger]

Personally (i.e. this is not a staff position I am advocating) I like the idea of having a "psionic sdesc" that you create at character generation. This sdesc would be used in lieu of someone's actual sdesc when you contact them. This psionic sdesc could be a representation of their personality, their mental self-image, etc.

Example:
Bob - the short, dark man (real sdesc) also has "a fizzing ball of purple goo" as his psionic sdesc.
Sandy - the tall, blond woman (real sdesc) also has "a bloody, bruised fist" as her psionic sdesc.

Bob attempts to contact Sandy -
> contact Sandy
You contact <a bloody, bruised fist>.

Sandy attempts to contact Bob -
> contact fizzing ball goo
You contact <a fizzing ball of purple goo>.

Bob attempts to contact Sandy -
> contact tall blond woman
You contact <a bloody, bruised fist>.

The psionic sdesc would not be available to use as keywords for anything besides psionics; that is, "look fizzing" wouldn't target Bob.

However... that being said, I think people get a bit too uptight about "sdesc sniffing." A hooded cloak is not a magick illusion that prevents people from getting a look at your features. On the other hand, I think we should entertain the idea of "levels of hiddenness." A cloak with a deep enough hood to really mask you from being identified is going to have drawbacks - loss of peripheral vision and hearing are going to impact skills like scan, listen, and watch. A facewrap that is opaque enough to conceal your facial features might cut down your visual range by a room. In other words, if we're going to implement items that are really and truly designed to make someone difficult to identify, I'm ok with that, but there have to be tradeoffs.

I like both of these ideas, five appendages up from me!

Bushranger

[Tisiphone]

Um ... I dunno if this idea has ever been tossed out but ... how about when you contact a person who's sdesc is hidden because of a cloak/hood/whatever ... ...

... ...

... ... the description you're given via the way ... is that same cloak/hood/whatever concealed description you tried to contact.

I like this idea the most. We could even plausibly justify it, by claiming that in order contact someone, your mind forms an image (woo imagination!) and then casts over the Way for the essence that matches your image as you image it.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Um ... I dunno if this idea has ever been tossed out but ... how about when you contact a person who's sdesc is hidden because of a cloak/hood/whatever ... ...

... ...

... ... the description you're given via the way ... is that same cloak/hood/whatever concealed description you tried to contact.

I like this idea the most. We could even plausibly justify it, by claiming that in order contact someone, your mind forms an image (woo imagination!) and then casts over the Way for the essence that matches your image as you image it.

I rather like this, too, if we're not going to implement new commands.

Perhaps the best way to "explain" it would be that the mental image that returns to a person making telepathic contact over the Way is an image that is "sent" by the one who was contacted, which will match their appearance at the time.

Either that, or simply make it so you can't "contact figure" unless they're in the same room as you.  It could respond with "That is not specific enough--your mind is unable to make contact with an individual."

[Qzzrbl]

Using mental descriptions would far from eliminate sdesc sniffing. It would just make it a little harder.

Code Select Expand

The room [N]
You're in a room. It's roomy. Roomy room description here.You're in a room.
It's roomy. Roomy room description here.You're in a room. It's roomy. Roomy
room description here.You're in a room. It's roomy. Roomy room description
here.You're in a room. It's roomy. Roomy room description here.You're in a
room. It's roomy. Roomy room description here.You're in a room. It's roomy.
Roomy room description here.
The tall, muscular man is standing here.
The short, wiry man is standing here.
The young lad is here.

You feel a foreign presence contact your mind.

The image of a big bag of obsidian dicks tells you over the way, "I'm gonna kill you."

You feel a foreign presence leave your mind.

You think to yourself, feeling annoyed, "Who did that...?"

Contact muscular.

You contact a big bag of agafari dicks.

You think to yourself, "Nope...."


You break contact with a big bag of agafari dicks.

contact wiry

You contact a big bag of baobab dicks.

You think to yourself, "Mm, not this one neither...."

You break contact with a big bag of baobab dicks.

Contact lad.

You contact a big bag of obsidian dicks.

You think to yourself, "Aha!"

Kill lad.


My idea would make this all but impossible....

And would also make it impossible for something like this to happen.

Code Select Expand

The room [N]
You're in a room. It's roomy. Roomy room description here.You're in a room.
It's roomy. Roomy room description here.You're in a room. It's roomy. Roomy
room description here.You're in a room. It's roomy. Roomy room description
here.You're in a room. It's roomy. Roomy room description here.You're in a
room. It's roomy. Roomy room description here.You're in a room. It's roomy.
Roomy room description here.
The tall, muscular man is standing here.
The tall, well-built man is standing here.
The towering, muscled man is standing here.
The colossal, freakishly large man is standing here.

The templar tells you over the way, "Your target is Amos, he's a tall feck, and works out pretty regularly."

You think to yourself, "Gee, who could it be?"

look amos

kill amos

Really, how can you look at someone with just their name if you've never met them before?

It makes zero sense.

http://a516.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/107/l_701fb75deca7088e219669ef2ef69ad3.jpg
^ You're told to look for a man with brown hair, wearing blue jeans and a black shirt. His name is Qzzrbl. He must be eliminated.

Good luck.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

The best way for psionics to not reveal identity to the typical mundane would be this:

>contact Amos
You make contact with someone's mind.

>psi Hi.
You send someone's mind a telepathic message.
   "Hi."


That's all the change that is needed. If you get the wrong mind, oh well. If you get the right mind, somebody will contact you in return. There'll be no more identity issues based off of a mind. And psionists will still see what we all see now.

The code change would be minimal.

[staggerlee]

Meh.  I don't think it's a big deal.

There's a lot of stupidity on both sides of identifying people.  I don't hear anyone complaining that bandits shouldn't be able to hide their voice, body type, odor, weapons, armor and everything else under a generic dark hooded cloak item that everyone in the game has, with no way of seeing through it unless they happen to be in the same room as you and give you time to hit look.  I mean... that's sort of ludicrous.

I'm also not convinced that "sdesc sniffing" is the leading cause of death with bandits, and anecdotal evidence isn't very convincing.  It seems like a vocal minority are making a really big deal out of this.  Either way it's come up, many, many times and I'm sure staff have heard a whole lot of arguments on both sides, there are more than a few threads to search through on the debate.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

A vocal minority plays raiders, and I assure you, it is a problem just as they are describing, though location is also a factor that is not being given as much attention. Most certainly, sdesc sniffing hurts a great deal.

It is a valid concern.

[Qzzrbl]

Also, things like faking your own death and trying to evade bounty hunters and the like are all but impossible. Especially when you can just "look <bounty head's name here>" to identify someone.

[Lakota]

Venomz has offered the best idea.

[Boggis]

Venomz has offered the best idea.

[Delstro]

Qzzrbl has offered the best idea for playability and enjoyement.
Venomz has offered the best idea for playability.


I'd go with either or, I would prefer Qzzrbl's idea for enjoyment reasons, but I would settle for Venomz.

[Gimfalisette]

Either all y'all are working under some vastly different definition of "playability" than I am, or you really just haven't thought through all the consequences of such a change yet.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

No offense, but perhaps you could explain your statement a bit better? Because beyond not being certain you were reaching the right mind (which frankly I don't see as a real problem), I'm not so sure what could possibly be considered as bad about my suggested concept. The recipient of a PSI would still see the short description of the sender. All my idea does is force the other person to contact you in order for you to know who they are. And if you are a psionic, the current message is what you will see.

Here is a full example.

>contact Bob
You contact someone's mind.

>psi Hi.
You send a telepathic message to someone's mind.
   "Hi."

You feel a foreign presence contact your mind.

The lanky, grey-eyed man sends you a telepathic message:
   "Hi."

>psi Bye.
You send a telepathic message to someone's mind.
   "Bye."

>Cease
You withdraw from someone's mind.

Certainly, I fail to understand how that could really hurt playability.

[Gimfalisette]

You didn't specify previously that they would see your sdesc when you Way them, so I assumed you meant the conversation would be totally blind. Now that you've elaborated, it might potentially be workable.

[Qzzrbl]

I know my idea might hurt playability a little if someone has a tendency to avoid interaction with other players, or those who play way off-peak.... But it opens up so many other doors for interesting plots and scenes.

[Gimfalisette]

Actually, I amend: Since your elaboration, and thinking of a couple more issues it would fix beyond raider-sdesc-sniffing, I think I'm in favor.

[musashi]

My only problem with that is that I just feel like the "someone's mind" thing sounds a little too vauge and silly.
I would rather have the person's current sdesc (based on whatever they may or may not be wearing, like a hood) be sent back to you.

Like other people have said, the justification could be something like: other people can find your mind, but you have some control over the image you send back to them based on your current image.

Maybe later on down the line something could be added so that the mindbenders of the world could control the way their psionic description looks without a need to fetter it to their actual sdesc, but eh, that's just icing on the cake.

[Lakota]

It used to be like that:

Contact someone wearing a hood and it remained hidden to you over the way.

[Morgenes]

A formal post will be put on the Weekly Update & Staff Announcements when this goes live.

A code change is being tested that will make it so that you can only use someone's name, keywords and REAL short description when contacting them from any room other than your current room.  Keywords granted from temporary short descriptions (such as from hoods/masks/face-wraps, whatever) will not be usable.

Note that this does not change the way contact works if you are in the same room with someone.  You will be able to use hooded/figure etc... to contact them if they're in the same room. 

We (we being the staff of Armageddon) feel this brings the code into line with our vision of how contact targeting should work and at what level it can be used to determine who someone really is.

[Fathi]

Here's to you, Mrs. Robinson.

I hope this works out and I hope it goes live.

[NoteworthyFellow]

A formal post will be put on the Weekly Update & Staff Announcements when this goes live.

A code change is being tested that will make it so that you can only use someone's name, keywords and REAL short description when contacting them from any room other than your current room.  Keywords granted from temporary short descriptions (such as from hoods/masks/face-wraps, whatever) will not be usable.

Note that this does not change the way contact works if you are in the same room with someone.  You will be able to use hooded/figure etc... to contact them if they're in the same room. 

We (we being the staff of Armageddon) feel this brings the code into line with our vision of how contact targeting should work and at what level it can be used to determine who someone really is.

I like this post.  A lot.

[musashi]

Yay!

[Lizzie]

Picky question about using the "real" sdesc...

let's say it's a guy who has a twisted body and green hair. But his player mistakenly forgot a comma..

the twisted green-haired man

implying that it's his hair that's twisted, instead of

the twisted, green-haired man

indicating that -he- is twisted, and not his hair.

Will the lack of comma matter when using an sdesc while trying to use the way to contact someone? Is it punctuation-mark-sensitive? What about the hyphen? I know that sometimes, green-haired will work, but other times, green works, haired works, but green-haired doesn't work. Will the code ignore all punctuation marks and consider only the order and combination of words instead? That would be ideal. Cause there are lots of tall dark men, and several tall, dark men, and the players mean exactly the same thing.

[Nyr]

When you contact someone or target them, it goes solely on keywords, not sdesc, iirc.

Example:

Amos the tall, green-eyed man.

His keywords (that he set up when he created his character, or did his last desc change) are tall green eyed man.

You would type

Code Select Expand

contact tall green Amos
to get Amos.

Alternatively, you could type

Code Select Expand

contact green tall amos
or

Code Select Expand

contact amos green tall
or

Code Select Expand

contact amos tall green

 

[Lizzie]

Right. I should've simplified my question - in your example Nyr, will the -new- implementation allow for people to type "green-eyed" and get a positive result if the guy's sdesc is green-eyed? Not green and eyed, but green-eyed, with the hyphen. If I type "contact green-eyed amos" to find Amos, the green-eyed man, will I actually find him? Or will that hyphen error out my attempt even though it's part of his sdesc, which Morgenes says will be one of the things we can try to contact someone from now on? It has errored in the past. That's why I'm asking.

[Morgenes]

Will the lack of comma matter when using an sdesc while trying to use the way to contact someone? Is it punctuation-mark-sensitive? What about the hyphen? I know that sometimes, green-haired will work, but other times, green works, haired works, but green-haired doesn't work. Will the code ignore all punctuation marks and consider only the order and combination of words instead? That would be ideal. Cause there are lots of tall dark men, and several tall, dark men, and the players mean exactly the same thing.

This portion of the code did not change.  Punctuation marks in the sdesc are ignored, although you should still be able to refer to the 'green-haired' man.  If you have issues with this, please send me a log and I will investigate.

Edited to add:

Here's an example from in-game:

Code Select Expand

> contact half-giant
You suffer from use of the Way.
You contact the towering, golden-haired half-giant with the Way.

>cease
You dissolve the psychic link.

> contact towering half-giant
You suffer from use of the Way.
You contact the towering, golden-haired half-giant with the Way.

>cease
You dissolve the psychic link.

> contact the towering, golden-haired half-giant
You suffer from use of the Way.
You contact the towering, golden-haired half-giant with the Way.

>cease
You dissolve the psychic link.


I will throw in there that combining a name with sdesc can provide unpredictable results (as in Nyr's examples above, including 'amos' along with keywords).  This is because all the keywords have to match at least ONE of the name, keywords or sdesc.  If you use names, you cannot use punctuation, as names are only stored on keywords, and punctuation isn't in the keywords.

I know that's not real clear, let's try a tangible example, if our half-giant above is named 'Amos':

Code Select Expand

> contact half-giant amos
You suffer from use of the Way.
You contact the towering, golden-haired half-giant with the Way.

>cease
You dissolve the psychic link.

> contact towering, half-giant amos
You suffer from use of the Way.
You are unable to reach their mind. {the comma isn't in their keywords, so no match}


It also depends on the keywords on the character.  Most new characters will have their sdesc in their keywords with hyphens.  It's possible there are older characters and NPCs that have 'green haired' in their keywords instead of 'green-haired'.  In that case, 'green-haired amos' will NOT work.

Sorry this isn't consistent and can be confusing.  The best way to get someone is to use exact sdesc with punctuation, or using a unique name.

[Desertman]

Well, its a step in the right direction.

[Qzzrbl]

Well, its a step in the right direction.

Yeh.

[KIA]

Let the crime waves begin!

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Punctuation can be used in contact?      I never knew this before, so I guess it won't change much about the way I try to contact people.