Price of hides

[Salt Merchant]

There's an argument to be made that various shops sell hides at unreasonable prices.

The best point is that often the unworked hide costs more than shops will charge for the items it can be made into. In other words, this is over and above what the shops will pay to buy these to begin with, after (1) value has been added by tanning or curing the hide and (2) value has been added by making the tanned hide into a leather product of some sort.

This makes little sense to me.

There often doesn't seem to be much correlation between the scarcity or plentitude of the animal supplying the hide or carapace and the proximity of the shop selling them, either.

[Ammut]

You make a good point that the market seems a bit skewed on prices.

[FantasyWriter]

I totally agree with the OP.

[flurry]

I think you're probably right about this. In general, I hope prices are getting a close look for Arm2.

Having said that, I think hides are a great opportunity for trade between PC's. Indie hunters are often going to end up with some they can't sell or don't need, or at least be happy to sell a few to someone that's not an NPC.

[Desertman]

You have to keep in mind the affect of the Haggle skill.

I agree, if you dont have the Haggle skill as it stands, the prices seem very one-sided.

If you DO have the Haggle skill though, and you are good at it, you need to recalculate everything that you have witnessed at +/- 50%. (At the least)

So, that hide that costs you 50 coins that you can only make into a leather skirt that sells for 30 coins seems like a bad deal right?

Well, not if you are good with your Haggle skill.

That Hide will then cost you 25 coins and that skirt will suddenly sell for nearly 60 coins.

Traders/Merchants have to work to get good, just like everyone else. Even if that means sometimes taking a loss in the beginning, or sticking to lower-end crafts at first before you move up to expensive things, like hides.

Also, I would highly suggest that you deal with PC hunters for your hides, the amount of sid that will save you makes the Haggle skill obsolete. So, triple the above affect if you deal with PC's, and not only is there not a problem, BUT it becomes crazy-easy to make huge profits off hide-items.

[Tisiphone]

'twould be nice, though, if basic resource items, like hides, sandstone, etc. had a lower and smaller price curve to begin with, and allowed buying in bulk. If I'm a leatherworker, I'm not going to just go get one jozhal hide from the shop. So, maybe a hide would only cost me fifteen coins, and if I bought twenty, roughly 200, depending on my haggle skill.

Jozhal's a bad example, they're supposed to be semi-rare and rather pretty. However, chalton, gortok, and the like should be relatively common. Anything people raise as meat animals (kanks, chalton, erdlu, sunback, oxen) should have hides readily available for a reasonable amount, taking into account the amount of material purchased. (Buying up a whole cowskin is still going to cost you a pretty penny, but it should also give you more than one pair of gloves, if you know what to do with it.)

Rangers and hunters would still (theoretically) be viable; they're bringing in hides that aren't domestic, and therefore rarer, and therefore more valuable, assuming they have any real value to begin with.

[Desertman]

'twould be nice, though, if basic resource items, like hides, sandstone, etc. had a lower and smaller price curve to begin with, and allowed buying in bulk. If I'm a leatherworker, I'm not going to just go get one jozhal hide from the shop. So, maybe a hide would only cost me fifteen coins, and if I bought twenty, roughly 200, depending on my haggle skill.

Well thats fine and all, but that means the hunters that are selling these jozhal hides to the shop you are buying them from will only be getting 7 or 8 coins per hide.

An arrow costs 20 coins.

You do the math on how many jozhals hunters are going to have to spam kill just to make archery viable. (Its not really -that- viable as it stands)

Archery aside, imagine how many creatures in general a hunter is suddenly going to have to spam kill just to get enough coins to buy water.

A skin of water in Allanak costs you half a small (give or take). Suddenly, just to supply myself with water for a day of hunting I am going to have to kill 10 creatures with your system.

I dont approve.

Jozhal's a bad example, they're supposed to be semi-rare and rather pretty. However, chalton, gortok, and the like should be relatively common. Anything people raise as meat animals (kanks, chalton, erdlu, sunback, oxen) should have hides readily available for a reasonable amount, taking into account the amount of material purchased. (Buying up a whole cowskin is still going to cost you a pretty penny, but it should also give you more than one pair of gloves, if you know what to do with it.)

In a world where vegetation is already a scarce commodity, especially in the south, I dont see chalton/erdlu ranchers parting with the hides of these beasts they have paid a pretty penny to raise for too little.

I'm not sure what they feed chalton/erdlu in Allanaki ranching operations, but I'm sure whatever it is doesnt exactly grow on trees, (pun intended) in the middle of the desert. Raising livestock is super expensive in that part of the world, just to keep it fed.

As for gortoks, their hides are already so cheap that they fit exactly into the price range you want, so, no arguement there.

In general, playing a trader is already crazy-easy if you deal with pc hunters. Just pay them slightly more than the shops will pay them, but still pay less than the shops would charge you. You should be rolling in the coins in no time.

[Tisiphone]

Some stuff I thought was disagreeing with Tisiphone but that was really another angle of approach to her point.

In short: the economy is broken, and that's not the least because the ecology is broken. People just don't settle cities like they have on Zalanthas.

[Desertman]

In short: the economy is broken, and that's not the least because the ecology is broken. People just don't settle cities like they have on Zalanthas.

Exactly.

[Gunnerblaster]

You have to keep in mind the affect of the Haggle skill.

I agree, if you dont have the Haggle skill as it stands, the prices seem very one-sided.

I've used characters with the haggle skill but, though I've read up on it and it's an automatic skill, I've never been able to really use it to it's full potential.

[Lizzie]

Regarding the price of hides vs. haggle: Totally agree with Desertman. And since I never agree with him, but do today, we are both therefore right.

Regarding the archery comment - wrong. Archery is not only viable, it's a lot of fun. It's a matter of where and who and how; it involves strategy, and thought, and planning. But you can, eventually, become "really good at it" [tm].

Regarding the haggle skill itself to Gunnerblaster, it is another skill that takes some strategizing, and it can improve, and it can be awesome. Experiment with its use. An example (just so you can see the direction I'm referring to):

A widget in the shop costs 150 sids.
offer 60 widget.
The guy refuses.
Offer 72 widget
The guy refuses.
Offer 90 widget
The guy angrily refuses.

Go find another place to shop for a day.

Return to the shop - the widget is still there.

offer 70 widget
The guy refuses.
offer 92 widget
The guy will now sell it to you for 137.
offer 92 widget (cause you really don't want to pay more than 100 this week for things)
The guy will now sell it to you for 123.
offer widget 92
The guy refuses.
Offer widget 99
The guy asks "let's just stick with 123, shall we?"
which indicates that he's done - if you don't buy it for 123, he won't sell it to you. Either accept, or just be glad he didn't kick you out of the shop.

That's the kind of experimenting. Start a little different each time, raise or lower your next offer to see how the guy responds...he might kick you out - so come back another day and try a different tactic then. He might not kick you out, but not let you buy for the price you want. Or he might eventually come down to the price you're willing to pay. It's all a matter of experimenting.

[Desertman]

Regarding the price of hides vs. haggle: Totally agree with Desertman. And since I never agree with him, but do today, we are both therefore right.

There you have it, we can not be challenged!!!

[Desertman]

Regarding the archery comment - wrong. Archery is not only viable, it's a lot of fun. It's a matter of where and who and how; it involves strategy, and thought, and planning. But you can, eventually, become "really good at it" [tm].

I just meant its very expensive, as an independent who cant craft their own arrows, to get good at it in the beginning.

Typically you will spend more on arrows to take down a critter when you start out, then the critters "goods" are actually worth.

But you are correct, eventually you do get really good at it, and when you can "one-shot" critters, it then becomes a valueable skill to have.

[Clearsighted]

You have to keep in mind the affect of the Haggle skill.

I agree, if you dont have the Haggle skill as it stands, the prices seem very one-sided.

If you DO have the Haggle skill though, and you are good at it, you need to recalculate everything that you have witnessed at +/- 50%. (At the least)

So, that hide that costs you 50 coins that you can only make into a leather skirt that sells for 30 coins seems like a bad deal right?

Well, not if you are good with your Haggle skill.

That Hide will then cost you 25 coins and that skirt will suddenly sell for nearly 60 coins.

Traders/Merchants have to work to get good, just like everyone else. Even if that means sometimes taking a loss in the beginning, or sticking to lower-end crafts at first before you move up to expensive things, like hides.

Also, I would highly suggest that you deal with PC hunters for your hides, the amount of sid that will save you makes the Haggle skill obsolete. So, triple the above affect if you deal with PC's, and not only is there not a problem, BUT it becomes crazy-easy to make huge profits off hide-items.

This is right on the money. The absence or not of the haggle skill, and access to PC sellers or buyers, makes a huge difference. The economy actually makes alot more sense than you think. And lowering costs would throw as many people into poverty as lift them out.  In fact, all of Desertman's posts in this thread is absolutely true.

[Desertman]

Remember that time four years ago when I said...

"Seriously guys, sometimes I really do make sense, I swear."

And you were all like...

"Fuck you Desertman, you never make any fucking sense you ass-hat, we hate you and want to feed you to a rabid ground squirrel!"

Well there you have it, four years later, and I finally put you all in your place. I told you it was going to happen, and finally, four years later..."IN YOUR FACE!!!"

[Lizzie]

I still want to feed you to a ground squirrel. But not a rabid one. I want it to be lucid enough to enjoy the taste of your torn, bloodied flesh.

[Archbaron]

Hopefully, in Arm.2, the economy crisis will be fixed. Someone needs to make a really rich noble that proposes a bail-out plan for the economic crisis of Allanak or Tuluk and increase the value of the Allanaki/Tuluki coin, thus decreasing the price of gas water.

Fun aside, I think it'll be a true challenge to make an economy because an economy is based on people buying and selling things around them based on availability and demand. A programmer can't just go down a list of products and type in value integers. The object in question has to earn its price by how often it is encountered, used, sold, and bought by players because that is how our real-world economy works: supply and demand.

And no matter how broken it is, our economy still does it's job and makes sense (usually).

[Semper]

I think there's a couple things to take into account though. The shops that you are selling the goods to most likely already have their own crafters or craft themselves, and don't need to buy more goods from others as they get less profit. Those that buy hides likely have their own hunters that provide hides for them, and just purchase those hides that can't be covered by their own hunters.

If you have the value skill, you can tell with a glance what I mean. Most shops sell items at ~%150 - ~%250 of the value of the item, and purchase the item at %50 - %70 (just an estimate, I don't know the exact figures). So the raw hides that you purchase from the shop are a bit higher than the real value, and the made goods that you sell are bought at lower than the real value.

Pretty much, Armageddon's system of economy encourages PC merchants/crafters to interact with other PCs more than through the NPCs. NPCs are there when there are no or few PCs around.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

"Fuck you Desertman, you never make any fucking sense you ass-hat, we hate you and want to feed you to a rabid ground squirrel!"

I didn't call you an ass-hat.

Err, on topic, the economy is sure to have a much stronger system behind it this next time, and it will not only accept more tweaking in terms of code, but also be finetuned. 2.0 will be the staff's baby. There'll be few shortcuts taken with things in this version of the game, I suspect, and the economy ranks right up there near the top of important issues.

[Salt Merchant]

I'd like to point out again that selling a finished product (like a small leather pouch) for less than the materials required to make it (like a tandu hide) just makes no sense at all, no matter what people say about haggle and the rest of it.

It's like selling a car for less than the metal needed to make it. You'd be better off just selling the metal itself, rather than crafting it into a car and selling that.

[Lizzie]

I'd like to point out again that selling a finished product (like a small leather pouch) for less than the materials required to make it (like a tandu hide) just makes no sense at all, no matter what people say about haggle and the rest of it.

It's like selling a car for less than the metal needed to make it. You'd be better off just selling the metal itself, rather than crafting it into a car and selling that.

First, I guess you've never heard of a chop shop. Basically your analogy proved the opposite point.

Thing is, those pouches are very easy to make. And not many people actually want them. So you're trying to make something that just doesn't have much value. Those hides could be used to make things that are in more demand, and thus worth more sids. Sort of like taking a big piece of chitin that an armorsmith could use to make 500 sid cuirasses, breaking it down into tiny fractions, and using each fraction to make a skinning knife worth 20 sids each. Sure, it's not worth the cost of the chitin. But it is, in the long run, if it gets you to learn how to cut chitin better, how to work with the appropriate tools, how to hone a fine sharp edge on a knife, and ultimately, how to make a -different- blade out of a -different- material worth 10x that.

[Tisiphone]

I'd like to point out again that selling a finished product (like a small leather pouch) for less than the materials required to make it (like a tandu hide) just makes no sense at all, no matter what people say about haggle and the rest of it.

It's like selling a car for less than the metal needed to make it. You'd be better off just selling the metal itself, rather than crafting it into a car and selling that.

Price is based on the value of the product, not the amount of work or value put INTO the product.

(That's real life, though, not Arm.)

[Salt Merchant]

I'd like to point out again that selling a finished product (like a small leather pouch) for less than the materials required to make it (like a tandu hide) just makes no sense at all, no matter what people say about haggle and the rest of it.

It's like selling a car for less than the metal needed to make it. You'd be better off just selling the metal itself, rather than crafting it into a car and selling that.

Price is based on the value of the product, not the amount of work or value put INTO the product.

(That's real life, though, not Arm.)

Say you're a shop owner. You can sell a log for 100 coins. Or, you can take the log, make it into a wooden box, and sell that for 40 coins.

So far as you know, they sell equally well. What shopkeeper in his right mind would ever make boxes?

[Salt Merchant]

[First, I guess you've never heard of a chop shop. Basically your analogy proved the opposite point.

I really don't see how.

If a raw material is worth more than any product that can be made from it, then economically it makes no sense to go crafting them. There should be no small leather pouches in the world, for instance.

[Lizzie]

Erm, a copper penny is worth more than 1 cent. The melted-down steel of a manhole cover is worth more than the manhole cover. The engine of a 1984 Buick Skylark is worth more than a 1984 Buick Skylark. And so on, and so forth. In the world of parts supplies, the whole is definitely -not- greater than the sum of its parts.

[Desertman]

THE LUCID GROUND SQUIRREL IS HERE KEEPING AN EYE OUT FOR TASTY DESERTMANS.

[Semper]

Just become a power and influential enough figure to change things IG then...

Still, I think things are fine. They could use a little tweaking here and there, but what doesn't?

If what the shopkeepers offer isn't to your taste, set up a trade caravan to someplace that values what you make. Or trade to PCs who'll buy the item at the real value instead of being a third party to the shop owners.

In the end, you get the minimum amount of profit if you act as a third party. What you buy from shop keepers is at higher (market) prices, and what you sell is bought at lower prices, so you get the bottom of the stick no matter what, even in RL.

How do you deal with it? Find PCs who are willing to trade with you, and/or you can set your own prices through them. If you need guidance from players about this process, feel free to ask and I'm sure they'll be willing to help or do a search through old posts. Otherwise it starts sounding like a complaint.

[Tisiphone]

I'd like to point out again that selling a finished product (like a small leather pouch) for less than the materials required to make it (like a tandu hide) just makes no sense at all, no matter what people say about haggle and the rest of it.

It's like selling a car for less than the metal needed to make it. You'd be better off just selling the metal itself, rather than crafting it into a car and selling that.

Price is based on the value of the product, not the amount of work or value put INTO the product.

(That's real life, though, not Arm.)

Say you're a shop owner. You can sell a log for 100 coins. Or, you can take the log, make it into a wooden box, and sell that for 40 coins.

So far as you know, they sell equally well. What shopkeeper in his right mind would ever make boxes?

Well, precisely. No shopkeeper would make boxes, because no-one wants boxes. Don't make boxes. We don' need no steeenkin' boxes.

[staggerlee]

Part of the problem with the product/material price equation is skill ups.  You get the same thing on any mmorpg with a crafting system.
The raw parts to do your base skills are expensive, because people don't want to go out and farm them.  The finished product is cheap because every newbie crafter has to mass produce them in order to raise their skills.  That's why you can get sequins selling for six hundred bucks, and sequin studded gloves selling for a dollar each.  The players feel content because they've raised their skill for no work - at a loss, the scavengers get to sell their raw materials at ridiculously high prices, and the market is flooded with sequin studded gloves, with such ridiculous availability that you can't give them away.,

Having more recipes might help alleviate that problem, but people are still likely to go for the easiest/cheapest one and spam it till they get their skill up.  A more complex crafting system could totally fix the problem, but that's getting into a whole other realm (and Arm 2.0). 

Being able to break down certain crafted goods might be a good start, returning them to their raw state - albeit perhaps slightly less materials.  An excellent example would be seperating flour into handfuls and not being able to recombine it.    I think it would be cool if I could break a "massive obsidian battle axe" down into "a bunch of obsidian shards" and make rings out of them, and it would help remove some of the crap from the market.