Touch in ARM cultures

[Gimfalisette]

One of the things I've noticed over time playing ARM is that most of us play like Americans. (A lot of us are Americans, or Canadians, which for many cultural purposes is pretty similar.) Despite best efforts at really portraying Nakkis or Tulukis or elves or tribals, in some very subtle ways our characters still act like Americans. A particular effect that I've seen on our mutual play is that, just like Americans, rarely do characters touch each other; the notable exceptions being sexual pairs and aggressive movements. Beyond those two types of touch, even family members, tribemates, trusted clanmates, etc. do not touch each other. This is, of course, just like Americans; outside of sexual touch, or affection granted to very young children, many Americans never touch any other person.

In many cultures in the real world, this avoidance of touching would be intensely out of place. Physical affection is often expressed between same-sex friends, between family members, etc.

Touching is treated differently from one country to another. Acceptable touch varies by cultural group. In the Thai culture, touching someone's head may be thought rude. Remland and Jones (1995) studied groups of people communicating and found that in England (8%), France (5%) and the Netherlands (4%) touching was rare compared to their Italian (14%) and Greek (12.5%) sample.

Stoeltje (2003) wrote about how Americans are 'losing touch' with this important communication skill. During a study conduced by University of Miami School of Medicine, Touch Research Institutes, American children were said to be more aggressive than their French counterparts while playing at a playground. It was noted that French women touched their children more often than the American parents.

Other cultures are often more OK with simple physical proximity, too:

Hall notes that different cultures maintain different standards of personal space. In Latin cultures, for instance, those relative distances are smaller, and people tend to be more comfortable standing close to each other; in Nordic cultures the opposite is true. Realizing and recognizing these cultural differences improves cross-cultural understanding, and helps eliminate discomfort people may feel if the interpersonal distance is too large ("stand-offish") or too small (intrusive). Comfortable personal distances also depend on the culture, social situation, gender, and individual preference.

Aside from rampant Americanism, one reason ARM characters may not touch one another much is because we, the players, are all afraid of power-emoting on each other. Yet, in my experience it is possible to develop relationships of OOC trust with other players so that touching can happen without the power-emoting concern. Between buddies, perhaps an arm around the shoulders; between siblings, a playful, light slap on the cheek; etc. Surely if we can be OK doing virtual touching with virtual lovers, we can expand the concept to other intimately-related characters

I don't have any particular recommendations about what ARM cultures should be like when it comes to touch and physical proximity. I just wanted to put it out there that this is a potential area of expansion of your character's cultural identity. One thing I would suggest is that physicality would probably be much more frequent and normal between family members, tribemates, or even trusted clanmates; the people who are for sure on your side.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I have also found it strange. I have tried to change that a little around me.

[Marauder Moe]

I think definitely some of it is the emote issue.  To do it "properly", first you should emote some desire to initiate contact (aka handshake, hug, platonic kiss on the cheek), the other player needs to respond with an emote about acceptance or rejection, then one or both of you need to emote the actual manner in which the act was performed.  It's very interactive (OOCly) compared to a verbal greeting or a wave (and typically those would occur too).

Even handshakes are less frequent Zalanthas (especially so these days I think).

[Shiroi Tsuki]

If you ever travel to those more 'affectionate' countries, as an American, you tend to really notice the difference.  And honestly, sometimes it can be hard to tell if your new female friend is holding your hand because you're friends, or is holding your hand to flirt with you.

I could definitely see the level of comfort with physical affection being described in future documents, as part of helping to understand a certain geographical area culturally. 

[Tisiphone]

Perhaps there might be a difference, as well. Tulukis may not touch one another as often; they certainly have sexual tactile segregation, and caste classes tend to lead to distancing intimate (read: tactile) interaction.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

>em offers a scrawny hand to ~hardy.

The hardy man takes your hand in his.

>em shakes %hardy hand weakly, nodding respectfully.

V.S.

>em waves at ~hardy in greeting

The hardy man waves back at you.

It's one emote more. Not so hard to handle, I think. Tradition is what it is that has established a culture of nods and bows and waves, but no handshakes or unromantic hugs. Handshakes should certainly be a sign of trust. If you note, the hand used to shake generally is the right hand, also commonly known as the swordarm. In shaking somebody's hand, you offer yourself to their mercy, since now you are unable to move with your swordarm should you be attacked by the friend's henchmen.

[Gimfalisette]

I think definitely some of it is the emote issue.  To do it "properly", first you should emote some desire to initiate contact (aka handshake, hug, platonic kiss on the cheek), the other player needs to respond with an emote about acceptance or rejection, then one or both of you need to emote the actual manner in which the act was performed.  It's very interactive (OOCly) compared to a verbal greeting or a wave (and typically those would occur too).

Even handshakes are less frequent Zalanthas (especially so these days I think).

It is definitely more complex and more challenging than simply grinning or nodding at other characters. But I find it much more fun, too.

I'm not sure about the need for an "initiating" action. Sometimes that is true. But when trust is OOCly already established between two characters, then I find this is fine:

Code Select Expand

The tawny, war-braided man sighs and slumps heavily against you from his barstool.

With amused affection, nudging him not enough to push him away, you ask the tawny,
war-braided man, in sirihish: "Long day, eh, brother?"


By trust being "OOCly established," I mean that our characters have some type of relationship and obviously we enjoy playing together. We've interacted before and there's a history. Not that there is OOC communication necessary about how touch is to happen.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I could definitely see the level of comfort with physical affection being described in future documents, as part of helping to understand a certain geographical area culturally. 

I'd love to see little things like this in cultural documentation, personally.  Cultural docs are one of my favorite parts of the game, and I try to follow them as well as I can (even if I don't do very well at it, like with most tribal cultures).

Perhaps there might be a difference, as well. Tulukis may not touch one another as often; they certainly have sexual tactile segregation, and caste classes tend to lead to distancing intimate (read: tactile) interaction.

Tuluk is, overall, less outwardly obvious than Allanak, culturally.  Touch could be a (forgive the adjective) subtle way to convey various meanings.  I think perhaps touch would be rare between castes, but between members of the same caste, it may be more common than in Allanak, especially since, at least in terms of fashion, Tuluk seems a little more sexually/sensually permissive, and so perhaps less uptight about whether touch is sexual in nature or not.

[Is Friday]

All the times I have tried to be friendly and touchy in game, people really assume the wrong way.

Maybe in... 4-5 different cultures/locations that I've tried. Even with friends of my characters.

[Marauder Moe]

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not arguing against kinesthetic greetings, just trying to explain why they're not popular.

I think in absence of a social context where they're expected, people will favor the greeting that is OOCly simpler, less intrusive, and less risky (having a handshake rejected is a bigger social insult than a wave not being returned).

[Gimfalisette]

All the times I have tried to be friendly and touchy in game, people really assume the wrong way.

Maybe in... 4-5 different cultures/locations that I've tried. Even with friends of my characters.

Definitely an effect of our American bias. We (as players) believe that all touch is sexual in nature. Very unfortunate.

I've had some really great experiences with mutual touch between family member characters and friend characters, though. It's amazing what it does to make the relationships seem more real.

I think in absence of a social context where they're expected, people will favor the greeting that is OOCly simpler, less intrusive, and less risky (having a handshake rejected is a bigger social insult than a wave not being returned).

Yeah. I'm sure that's true. I just would really like to see more variety and meaning in interactions. In fact, I kind of think we could come up with greetings that are more interesting and offer more layers of meaning than handshakes, even.

[nyrk]

Zalanthas is hot and gritty.

People may not want to touch each other, if they can help it.  Everyone is probably hot, and their clothes are sticking to themselves because of sweat, with their loincloths giving themselves wedgies.

It may just plain be uncomfortable.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Whether or not a touch is considered sexual in nature is entirely based on the situation.  For instance, you and a friend might be sitting together on the beach in your suits, and you might briefly lay your hand on her bare leg.  That is going to be a lot more permissible than if you and a friend are conversing at a cocktail party, and you slide your hand up her skirt to rest in the exact same spot on her leg.  One is just circumstantial, the other implies sexual.

It might be perfectly admissible for members of even opposite castes to exchange hugs, kisses on the cheeks, kisses on the mouth, as a greeting (provided the caste isn't considered 'unclean' by the other caste).  Currently, were an aide and her employer to exchange a chaste kiss on the mouth, everyone in the immediate vicinity would think they're banging.  .. Well, most people thinks aides and employers are always banging anyway, so maybe it wouldnt' be the end of the world.

[Gimfalisette]

Zalanthas is hot and gritty.

People may not want to touch each other, if they can help it.  Everyone is probably hot, and their clothes are sticking to themselves because of sweat, with their loincloths giving themselves wedgies.

It may just plain be uncomfortable.

So that would explain why southern Europeans and people from the Middle East are more touch-y than northern Europeans? In short: No. The "it's so hot" argument is non-explanatory.

[Marauder Moe]

What is the explanation, then?

If casual touching is "healthy" and promotes trust, it actually sounds un-Zalanthan to me. 

[Shiroi Tsuki]

I'm not a social anthropologist, so I'm not really sure what the explanation is.  I think it would be something really interesting to look into, though.  The cultures that are more touchy do seem to be in warmer climates.  Maybe it has to do with how hard it is to touch people if you're both bundled up against sub-freezing temperatures 

[Gimfalisette]

I'm not a social anthropologist, so I'm not really sure what the explanation is.  I think it would be something really interesting to look into, though.  The cultures that are more touchy do seem to be in warmer climates.  Maybe it has to do with how hard it is to touch people if you're both bundled up against sub-freezing temperatures 

I don't recall there being an explanation tendered when I was studying this stuff before. Anthropologists don't always try to explain everything; often, they just observe and note.

If casual touching is "healthy" and promotes trust, it actually sounds un-Zalanthan to me. 

Trust is not un-Zalanthan at all. Unearned trust is what is un-Zalanthan. But even in the real world, I don't know of any cultures where rampant social touching of strangers happens. I'm not really talking about casual touching. Touch is a language of its own.

[FuSoYa]

My PCs have often grabbed shoulders, patted legs, gripped knees, touched arms and whatnot... it's part of the way my characters are I suppose. 

That being said, I do not like doing handshakes for some reason IG.

So, yea... if you want to touch me or my PCs go for it.

Brandon

[Dalmeth]

Definitely an effect of our American bias. We (as players) believe that all touch is sexual in nature. Very unfortunate.

Which America are you from?  Seriously, it's not that uncommon for people to shake hands or give hugs, even among those who are just friends.

I tend to think the reason it's rarer in Armageddon because it largely requires a greater amount of interaction.  One person waves to another, the other waves back, same thing with nods, but if you hug someone, there is no symmetrical response.  Put simply, touch is very complicated, far more information is transmitted through touch than through words.  It can be hard to portray it accurately in just the one minute that most people devote to casual greetings.

I'm all for it, but that's just the reality of the game we play where we have to type everything out.

[Malken]

Don't mix in Canada with you American bunch

As a form of greetings, at least toward the women (When it's in a friendly meeting, not business-like, of course), we tend to kiss both cheeks, even if the person is a stranger.
At least in Quebec, much like the Europeans do.

When I moved to the USA, and I tried that on a girlfriend's mother, she just froze like I was about to rape her or something.

In game, me and my tribesmates were all very touchy, one of my PC's cousin, a male, was always giving my PC affectionate squeezes, I guess much like
"manly" hugs, and I never minded it.

All of my PCs touch a lot, but I don't think that's very surprising to any of you 

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Which America are you from?  Seriously, it's not that uncommon for people to shake hands or give hugs, even among those who are just friends.

I have never seen two men or women walk down the street holding hands in America unless it definitely seemed to be a sexually-based sort of contact.  I saw this quiet frequently when I was out of the country, among people who were obviously just friends.  Also, kissing people who are friends or acquaintances is a lot more common in other countries.

We do shake hands.  We do sometimes, in some contexts, hug people who are friends or acquaintances.  But there is a lot of casual touching that isn't done as frequently in America as elsewhere, and that I see a lot of on Arm than I might expect, so I also understand where Gimf's coming from.

[Delstro]

When an appropriate level of trust has been developed between the players of characters, so they are both comfortable that the other won't go on a power emoting rampage. I have had a few different experiences about this.

In tribes, especially d-elf tribes, I think touching would be a major part of keeping the tribe together. They keep all their belongings together in chests, each one doesn't have their own chest to use. D-elves has the greatest amount of trust for their tribe, IMHO, than any other instance in Armageddon. What better way to foster friendship, love, and understanding than to physically show it to each other?

My previously enslaved PCs would always hate touching other beings. When they were enslaved they were only touched in negative ways to be beat, harrased, etc. Anyone sneaking a touch on them is liable to freak them out.

My normal, 9-5 working PCs don't like being touched because of those nasty skinnies always trying to nick my shit. Anyone could be trying to nick my shit and I don't like being touched.

My lonely, ranger-type pcs would always be looking for physical affection from other pcs. They need it.

It depends on the PCs and cultures they came from.

[Mood]

This thread made me realize that I'm a very touchy-feely person IRL.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I think we're looking past greetings. What about just normal interaction, such as physical violence that proceeds coded violence?

With narrowed eyes, reaching out to put a sinewy hand on his shoulder, you say to the dirty, narrow-framed man, in sirihish:
     "Eh, so, Rinther, tell me what you know about that buried sack o'coin, mmm?"

Shrinking back from you, the dirty, narrow-framed man says to you, in rinthi-accented sirihish:
     "Uh. Uh. Uh."

The first sentence mocks him. With your heavy black beard muffling your words a bit, and your sinewy hand still seeking his shoulder, you say to the dirty, narrow-framed man, in sirihish:
     "Uh, Uh, Uh. That ain't no answer, you scrawny half-human. I'm a nice one, for a soldier of the Arm, hrm? All you gotta do is tell me what I wanna hear, and I let you run off, see, ehh?"

Squeaking, unable to shrink back further, the dirty, narrow-framed man says to you, in rinthi-accented sirihish:
     "Uh. Uh. Uh. I swear I don't know whatcha talkin' abou'."

Leering and digging hard into his shoulder with your long fingers, tucking a jade-crossed longsword away, and bodying up on him so as to force him back into the wall, you say to the dirty, narrow-framed man, in sirihish:
     "Yeh? S'too damned bad, that. But we gonna see what you -do- know, you turd-cutter. I got this razor I used to shave with. Now it ain't sharp enough for all that precision shit, but Highlord curse me if it ain't still sharp enough to carve a stone o'flesh."

Pressing the dirty, narrow-framed man into the cool stone wall with your shoulder, your breath hot on his cheek, you get a used plain obsidian razor from your black militia cloak, your pale eyes staring into his dark eyes from less than an inch away.

Deliberately, you brandish a used plain obsidian razor, and trail it up the dirty, narrow-framed man's right thigh.

Pinning him back to the wall with a forearm across his throat, and trailing the razor over his sandcloth-covered stomach, your voice a little nasal and jittery, you say to the dirty, narrow-framed man, in sirihish:
     "I canna lie to you, ol' Amos. I get kinda pleased when I gotta carve some info outta someone."

Shaking, a dark stain creeping down the linen pants he wears, his eyes closed, the dirty, narrow-framed man says to you, in rinthi-accented sirihish:
     "Uh, uh, Uh. I tell, I tell ... don't cut me, don't cut me, Big Behn. Don't CUT me."

The morbid quality of your voice fading, your tone suddenly business like as you pull the razor away from his belly button, you say to the dirty, narrow-framed man, in sirihish:
     "I like that, I do. Go on, get to squawking, boyyo."

[staggerlee]

What is the explanation, then?

If casual touching is "healthy" and promotes trust, it actually sounds un-Zalanthan to me. 

A Culture of Violence:

There is a very strong argument for a place like Gaj having a certain comfort zone.  I've taken defense seminars where they talk about how tone, posture, and personal space can indicate whether or not someone is a threat, the danger of letting them inside your guard, and how to aggravate or defuse a situation with touch.  Your career criminal, mercenary or bar room brute in the Gaj is going to be very aware of those things, even if he can't express them on a rational level.

Domestic Culture:

On the other hand.   I think we should discern between the player population (IE: back stabbing political schemers, hired mercenaries, career soldiers, adventurers, thugs, thieves, assassins...) and the working bum.  Most people in Zalanthan cities struggle with violence and poverty on a domestic level, and probably turn to interpersonal relations for comfort and support. That could mean family, friends or whatever, and is going to be a totally different social scene from bar culture or whatever.

Population:

For the most part North America is a spacious place, and we're used to having a lot of room.  We have our own cars, we have big houses, with big yards, and we're used to having room to avoid each other in public. A personal 'bubble' or whatever you want to call it.  If you go to some European cities (and I'd imagine New York is more this way) you start to get more congested, smaller living area, more public transit, narrower sidewalks, less personal room.   The final extreme is somewhere like Tokyo, where you pack people onto subways like sardines, sleep in cubicles and deal with crowds like we never see.

Now the question is, how crowded is a Zalanthan city?  Are they used to being packed in shoulder to shoulder, or are we talking Spaghetti Western setting here where you can swagger down the middle of mainstreet at rushhour, and if someone else steps across your path it's a challenge.  I lean toward a middle ground, but it's worth considering.

Generalizations:

As several people have pointed out, not everywhere in America is the same, not every group of friends is the same, and we're not all comfortable with the same things.  That's without even worrying about the rest of the world.     So when discussing this, we need to drop the term "Zalanthan" and think about Red Storm, Tuluk, Luir's, Nak, the tribes, and everywhere else.  All different comfort levels, for all different cultures.    I assume that the word "Zalanthan" means "The Gaj" in most cases, but I'd caution people to clarify that difference. It matters.

[staggerlee]

Power Emoting:

Touch can lead to power emoting, but it doesn't have to.

I think that this would be perfectly acceptable:
Emote leans in to give ~hairy a quick kiss on the cheek.

If the target doesn't like that, they can respond with:
Emote pulls his head back at the last minute and hurls a devastating punch at %templar cheek.

Who can then respond as they see fit:
Emote turns too late and is rocked back with the force of the blow, causing a few seconds of delay before ^me can summon the guards to execute ~hairy.


Emoting touch is just a matter of playing along and phrasing your emotes well, it isn't that awkward or difficult. And as people have said, it gets easier the longer you play with someone and as you establish your boundaries. 

[BlackMagic0]

Definitely an effect of our American bias. We (as players) believe that all touch is sexual in nature. Very unfortunate.

Which America are you from?  Seriously, it's not that uncommon for people to shake hands or give hugs, even among those who are just friends.

Depends on where you live. Around (Wisconsin) here I randomly hug people that I have just met, and do not mind touching people at all.
I am actually a very touch oriented person.

I went to a meeting to join up with the IGDA student-chapter at my college and gave a person I had never met before in my life a hug.
I touch everyone from the friend that I barely know, to close like-a-brother-friends, to my family..... I will admit I have some friends that do not like touching, so I will not touch them out of respect for them. By touch I mean anything from a subtle hand on the shoulder, pat on the back, hand shake, gang-hand-shake, hug, semi-hug, and so forth.

People that are freaked out by touching and always steer away from it are weird.


So in short I do not believe that all American players have the same bias as Gimfalisette is pointing out.

Which America are you from?  Seriously, it's not that uncommon for people to shake hands or give hugs, even among those who are just friends.

I have never seen two men or women walk down the street holding hands in America unless it definitely seemed to be a sexually-based sort of contact.  I saw this quiet frequently when I was out of the country, among people who were obviously just friends.  Also, kissing people who are friends or acquaintances is a lot more common in other countries.

Lies and Slander. I kiss my friends on the cheek (family/friends - mostly women friends and all family.. but a few guy friends have gotten one.) and have even walked down the street with my arm around my friends. I've only ever held female-friend's hands though. Unless joking around and skipping down the street with my friend's hand in mine singing "We're off to see the wizard" counts?

[Gimfalisette]

I think we're looking past greetings. What about just normal interaction, such as physical violence that proceeds coded violence?

I've had a number of scenes like that with people, either playing the aggressor or the victim. With the right partner, it's intensely fun. But it takes a lot of OOC trustworthiness from both players: The aggressor needs to not over-emote their power, and the victim needs to be willing to be victimized.

Now the question is, how crowded is a Zalanthan city?  Are they used to being packed in shoulder to shoulder, or are we talking Spaghetti Western setting here where you can swagger down the middle of mainstreet at rushhour, and if someone else steps across your path it's a challenge.  I lean toward a middle ground, but it's worth considering.

IIRC, Caravan Road in Allanak is intensely packed with humanoid and vehicular traffic--nearly wall-to-wall. Allanak is 500k people, but I'm not certain of the actual physical size of the city. My impression is that it's not huge.

So when discussing this, we need to drop the term "Zalanthan" and think about Red Storm, Tuluk, Luir's, Nak, the tribes, and everywhere else.  All different comfort levels, for all different cultures.    I assume that the word "Zalanthan" means "The Gaj" in most cases, but I'd caution people to clarify that difference. It matters.

At the Gaj: Proxemics--everyone is shoved all up against everyone else. You're elbow-to-elbow at the bar with a half-elf or a magicker. Moving through the tavern itself can be problematic at times, and the brawls that happen may impact other people who are not brawling. However, touching other people inadvertently is not the same as touching other people on purpose. So the Gaj isn't a gauge for the whole culture.

Allanak as a whole: Touch is a form of dominance communication. The betters touch the lessers with pats on the head, shoulder, taking a hand for a purpose.

Tuluk: Touch might be highly ritualized, and definitely will communicate subtleties of information. A dominance or status message may be included; a commoner or slave would NEVER touch someone of the upper castes first.

Tribal elves and humans: Within tribes, touching should be more commonplace. Trust is inherent to the relationship. There should be an openness and some equality in the touching, or a teaching relationship implied.

[Rairen]

Tuluk is, overall, less outwardly obvious than Allanak, culturally.  Touch could be a (forgive the adjective) subtle way to convey various meanings.  I think perhaps touch would be rare between castes, but between members of the same caste, it may be more common than in Allanak, especially since, at least in terms of fashion, Tuluk seems a little more sexually/sensually permissive, and so perhaps less uptight about whether touch is sexual in nature or not.

QFT.  Not in so much as physicial contact would be verboten or even frowned upon in Allanak (the lack of physicial interaction is an OOC bias, not an IC one) as that it could have different meanings between the cities and cause it's own culture-clashes.  (Am certainly not speaking from experience. *cough*)

The harder part is persuading players that touch is not always an indication of sexual desire.  It's a bit of a circle:  when someone touches your character, you wonder if they are attracted to you.  You wonder that because the other 100 times it's happened to you (from a non-relation), it's always been about desire.  Now, to blur that line, you would need to touch people in non-sexual situations so that it's not 100% of the time about sex.  However, when you do that, the receiving player wonders if you are attracted to their character...

Two things to draw from the above:
1.  The non or rare touchers out there are missing a wondrous opportunity to mess with players' heads.
2.  At the same time, I don't blame them for not wanting to deal with the misconception because they know that the pbase will apply an OOC bias to their actions.  (I'm always in favor of anyone who wants to cause these situations - or even use them to their advantage -  but I sympathize with players who don't want to deal with the fallout because the RP is not their cup of tea.)

[Gimfalisette]

Lies and Slander. I kiss my friends on the cheek (family/friends - mostly women friends and all family.. but a few guy friends have gotten one.) and have even walked down the street with my arm around my friends. I've only ever held female-friend's hands though. Unless joking around and skipping down the street with my friend's hand in mine singing "We're off to see the wizard" counts?

What you do as an individual is not the same thing as what happens culturally. North America is one of the least touch-friendly areas of our planet; truth from anthropology. On average, Americans (and American ARM players) will share this bias. That's just the way culture works; it blinds us to other possibilities, other potential modes of living.

[BlackMagic0]

Lies and Slander. I kiss my friends on the cheek (family/friends - mostly women friends and all family.. but a few guy friends have gotten one.) and have even walked down the street with my arm around my friends. I've only ever held female-friend's hands though. Unless joking around and skipping down the street with my friend's hand in mine singing "We're off to see the wizard" counts?

What you do as an individual is not the same thing as what happens culturally. North America is one of the least touch-friendly areas of our planet; truth from anthropology. On average, Americans (and American ARM players) will share this bias. That's just the way culture works; it blinds us to other possibilities, other potential modes of living.

Everybody in the town that I lived in was pretty touch oriented and the population was not small, actually in all -THREE- towns I have lived in within Wisconsin, two southern Wisconsin and one central Wisconsin. So meh, most Wisconsinites I know are very touch oriented.
So I still believe it really depends on the area of the US you are in...

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Lies and Slander...

I said that I have never seen it happen.  I haven't.  I will grant that other people's personal experiences are likely different 

Regardless, it isn't about whether or not there are outliers on the touchiness front in North America.  I'm sure there are.  Just like I'm sure there are other fathers (like mine) who never even touch their own children after around age six or so, to skew it in the other direction.

I would just like to see some cultural guidelines on Arm.  Maybe not in this version, but definitely in the next incarnation.  Culture docs and portrayals are some of my favorite things in this game, and just as a certain level of touching might be geographically based around the world of even in North America, I'd like to see it that way in Arm too.  We aren't on opposite sides of the argument.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

So I ... believe it really depends on the area of the US you are in...

Gotta agree with him here. On the block, a hand-clasp and half-hug is common amongst remotely friendly folk. Dap (fist to fist 'handshake') is common up to and even including those you inwardly hate. People get clapped on tha back all the time. Only folks that you really disdain get no physical contact.

[Rairen]

Lies and Slander. I kiss my friends on the cheek (family/friends - mostly women friends and all family.. but a few guy friends have gotten one.) and have even walked down the street with my arm around my friends. I've only ever held female-friend's hands though. Unless joking around and skipping down the street with my friend's hand in mine singing "We're off to see the wizard" counts?

What you do as an individual is not the same thing as what happens culturally. North America is one of the least touch-friendly areas of our planet; truth from anthropology. On average, Americans (and American ARM players) will share this bias. That's just the way culture works; it blinds us to other possibilities, other potential modes of living.

Everybody in the town that I lived in was pretty touch oriented and the population was not small, actually in all -THREE- towns I have lived in within Wisconsin, 2 Southern Wisconsin and one central Wisconsin. So meh, most Wisconsinites I know are very touch oriented.
So I still believe it really depends on the area of the US you are in...

It does.  Midwesterners are different from Coasters (particularly urban coasters).  (My proof is in that I moved to Wisconsin from Pennsylvania, that I can see differences in interactions, but also that we get a nice class in 'how to behave if your customer is located in...' that covers all of these things above.  The fun dicotomy is that while the middle of the country is more touch-friendly, that they seem to like more personal space before and after contact.  The more urbane seem more comfortable with close quarters, up until the point of touch.)

[Gimfalisette]

Let me give you guys an example of what I mean:

Sidney Jarad, Psychologist, counted the number of contacts per hour.

• San Juan, Puerto Rico- 180
• Paris France, 110
• Gainsville, Florida 2
• London England- 0

This is contacts per hour by two people who are acquainted with one another.

All your friendly greeting hugs, you north Americans, do not add up to 180 touches per hour. This is why we call Latin American nations "high-touch," France is "medium-touch," and north America is "low-touch." You may personally, or your town may be, HIGHER in touching than another place in the United States...but that doesn't make you Brazilian. (Unless you are a native Brazilian now living in the US, in which case you probably understand what I'm talking about.)

[Malken]

Can't we just all pretend that a little tongue-to-tongue flick action is a common greeting in Zalanthas?

[BlazinDayz]

Can't we just all pretend that a little tongue-to-tongue flick action is a common greeting in Zalanthas?

Maybe with the cat people in Arm 2. Mrawr.

[Fool]

From memory, touch in real life serves as a way to gauge how much someone trusts you. If you touch their shoulder do they shy away? Do they feel comfortable returning the gesture in the future?.

Also serves as a way of sending a message to others. This person I am touching, we are close, we have trust, mess with one you mess with both. With opposite sex touching that may also be along the lines of "this person, they are mine, I have claimed them".

Could explain why 'westernised' societies use less touching. Demonstrating strong ties implies that you have weighed and measured people, which can offend those who you have found wanting. In western societies giving offense is generally avoided. Probably not due to niceness, rather due to the need to work closely with people you disdain, who may also become your superior down the track. Maybe.

[Yam]

Don't touch elves. You might catch it.

[Salt Merchant]

Don't mix in Canada with you American bunch

As a form of greetings, at least toward the women (When it's in a friendly meeting, not business-like, of course), we tend to kiss both cheeks, even if the person is a stranger.
At least in Quebec, much like the Europeans do.

I've never seen that, even in Quebec.

In any case, in today's legal environment, only a fool would touch a woman without some sort of blatant indication that's welcome first. Even a back pat can be cause for a lawsuit (e.g. created a hostile work environment). It's all according to what she decides in her head. I knew a pair of female students in university who inquired into having a male student charged with sexually harassing them, just for looking at them at the end of class. He had never approached them or said a word, but there it was. Fortunately they were told that there's no law against looking at people yet.

Women touching women is permissible and does happen. Men touching men is highly suspect (handshakes and playful punches to the shoulder are permissible). Women touching men is tantamount to an invitation (which however can be retroactively withdrawn at any time). It mostly just doesn't happen unless she's interested in him.

Even a man holding his own little daughter's hand is the subject of suspicion nowadays here.

Sooo... it's no great surprise that this translates into in-game behavior. 

[nyrk]

Since this thread got going I've noticed a lot more hand shaking going on in the game.
I think it's a good thing too.

[jhunter]

I don't think we need to be getting -more- touchy feely in Zalanthas as a whole. I can see tribal folks being a bit more but I pretty much think it's fine for the non-tribal people as a whole.

[staggerlee]

It isn't necessarily that the game needs more touching.
It's a matter of being aware of spatial relationships, and thinking about how much physical contact your character would or would not have with other people.   Questioning whether the current situation is in game culture or American culture is important as far as portraying an alien civilization I think.

It's like when people bring smell, temperature, environment, or anything else into their emotes. Details that bring the world alive.  The more people think about things like spatial relationships, the more alive their characters feel to me.

Of course I don't even have time to play lately, but that's a whole different story.

[jhunter]

It can be -both- game culture -and- American culture at the same time and there be absolutely -nothing- wrong with it. That is my feeling on it.
So we make it different from American culture, that would then make it like another existing RL culture most likely. I don't see how that is any sort of improvement on or problem with the way the game currently is.
Because people don't play more touch oriented characters simulating other non-American cultures that doesn't necessarily mean that people don't think about it when playing their characters.

[staggerlee]

It can be -both- game culture -and- American culture at the same time and there be absolutely -nothing- wrong with it. That is my feeling on it.
So we make it different from American culture, that would then make it like another existing RL culture most likely. I don't see how that is any sort of improvement on or problem with the way the game currently is.
Because people don't play more touch oriented characters simulating other non-American cultures that doesn't necessarily mean that people don't think about it when playing their characters.

It can be the same, I absolutely agree. Though as you pointed out in your previous post, it can also vary from region to region.
My feeling is that it's more important to ask these questions than to necessarily change anything.  If we ask the questions and are comfortable with the answers we come up with, than there's no need to change.  But the awareness builds richer culture and better rp.

I don't know if that makes sense. Maybe I'm just a giant geek for theory.,

[Gimfalisette]

Maybe I'm just a giant geek for theory.

I'm pretty sure there's no maybe about it

My biggest issue with touch in ARM cultures is that all cultures in ARM are currently the same. And they just shouldn't be. Nonverbal communication is the bulk of communication exchanged between people, and touch is a vital part of that.

Also, I'd really like to see players' RP expand beyond nodding, smiling, and brow-lifting. Touch is a whole 'nother set of stuff to emote, and a whole 'nother field of interaction to explore.

[solera]

Agree.  I can half kill my mates in the sparring ring, and they hardly bat an eyelid, but give them a casual poke with my finger, and watch them jump.

[LittleLostThief]

We can't all be touching each other now.  That just opens up the doorway to seal the deal that you'd absolutely in someone elses space.  Then they will just steal everything out of your pack.  I see how long you keep your pack open.  Nobody wants this.

[Manhattan]

I like this thread. It's not just about Zalanthan culture, it's about real American life too.

I wonder how appropriate it would be to emote kissing your friend on both cheeks like they do in European cultures.

[Yam]

Some tribes do that.