A discussion of stats.

[FantasyWriter]

I don't think it is bad role play if you haven't even reached the point with interacting with your first PC.

So we're all OK with the playerbase at large just suiciding or storing their characters, until they get a stat roll they like, thereby completely bypassing the coded stat-roll system and giving themselves an advantage over players who are unaware of this strategy or have some ethical qualms about employing it?

Awesome.

No.

We have mentioned SEVERAL suggestions in this thread about what to do in this case, only one of which was suicide.  It IS an option until we are told that it is not by the staff.  This is a game.  Most of us are patient enough to suck up a bad character until we find which niche we are going to put it in, but for some people, they want to get in and start right away with the character that they wrote.  It is up to the player to do what they feel is going to make them enjoy the game.

[Janna]

I don't think it is bad role play if you haven't even reached the point with interacting with your first PC.

So we're all OK with the playerbase at large just suiciding or storing their characters, until they get a stat roll they like, thereby completely bypassing the coded stat-roll system and giving themselves an advantage over players who are unaware of this strategy or have some ethical qualms about employing it?

Awesome.

Of course, you nOOb. How else can you win Armageddon if you're not the buffest/smartest PC out there that everyone needs to kneel to. Duh.  

Sarcasm aside, my personal outlook on stats is they really don't matter. If I don't like them when I first enter the game, I'll reroll, and then that's that. I don't store if they still suck. I make the best of it. I can have fun with almost any role I come up with, but some (and without judgements) can't. They -need- to have that stat to consider their character good or fun for whatever reason, and if being able to kill my below average str/wis warrior is something they need to know they can do, oh well. At least I'll have fun RP'ing up until that point with them then having a reinforced no-storage/no-suiciding rule and have a bunch of pissed-off unmotived players idling around me/quitting.

Hack and slash mentality will -never- be free of any game that has any sort of PK. It just won't. It's nature to want to be the best if that's the role you pick and if you have crap stats, it's not going to happen and it "spoils" it in the mind of (some) the players. This particular debate is about as old as mages or the like though, so I don't see it changing for either side anytime soon/ever.

[FantasyWriter]

I don't like the idea of suiciding for stats, pure and simple ... I'd much rather somebody take the time to store, or just try playing the damned character.

This isn't to say that I think it should put a bad note on your account, persay, but I think that trying to play with your ailments is more fun.

What I'd like to see is prioritization work like this.
1st stat: good +
2nd stat: Average +
3rd stat: Below Average +
4th stat: Poor +

Then you will always have a good first stat, provided you use the priority system, and as long as you plan your character as a normal guy, you'll be able to play him. You still can't get insane stats by default, and nobody can even use the excuse of poor stats as a reason to suicide anymore. Meanwhole, those who dislike a focus on stats can't say that this makes it unfair.

Wow, I think this is a great idea.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I would be pissed off if stats disappeared. That said, I like the random factor in this game. I would like it a bit more if we could buy stats, maybe, but the priority system is the greatest thing to happen to this game since the invention of sand. If you just follow a prescribed system for the priority system, since those who use it are more worried about their stats than those who don't, I think it would solve nearly all stat complications.

[Fathi]

I don't think it is bad role play if you haven't even reached the point with interacting with your first PC.

So we're all OK with the playerbase at large just suiciding or storing their characters, until they get a stat roll they like, thereby completely bypassing the coded stat-roll system and giving themselves an advantage over players who are unaware of this strategy or have some ethical qualms about employing it?

Awesome.

Of course, you nOOb. How else can you win Armageddon if you're not the buffest/smartest PC out there that everyone needs to kneel to. Duh.  

Sarcasm aside, my personal outlook on stats is they really don't matter. If I don't like them when I first enter the game, I'll reroll, and then that's that. I don't store if they still suck. I make the best of it. I can have fun with almost any role I come up with, but some (and without judgements) can't. They -need- to have that stat to consider their character good or fun for whatever reason, and if being able to kill my below average str/wis warrior is something they need to know they can do, oh well. At least I'll have fun RP'ing up until that point with them then having a reinforced no-storage/no-suiciding rule and have a bunch of pissed-off unmotived players idling around me/quitting.

Hack and slash mentality will -never- be free of any game that has any sort of PK. It just won't. It's nature to want to be the best if that's the role you pick and if you have crap stats, it's not going to happen and it "spoils" it in the mind of (some) the players. This particular debate is about as old as mages or the like though, so I don't see it changing for either side anytime soon/ever.

To be fair, although I won't go too much into it as I don't want to derail, I think it's unfair and condescending to refer to anyone who values their PC's stats as having a "hack and slash" mentality.

There are many reasons why having awful stats can severely affect one's ability to have fun and a lot of them have nothing to do with combat.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I don't think that's exactly what she meant, but I agree. I do have a H&S mentaility sometimes (that never outstrips my RP mentality), but aside from that, stats can be absolutely valuable to a character concept.

How the hell could you RP a HG porter who drags a taxi-cart around behind him with room for four people without having a certian level of strength? My current character had to have a certian amount of X stat, or my character concept would have been ruined. Sure, I could have RPed around it, but still, it would have ruined, the concept.

[FantasyWriter]

Just a reminder of the OP:

While I like the recent of implementation that changes stat scores by age and I don't mind the stat-ordering system... I still don' like the way stats are decided in this game.

I don't like the idea that a few random rolls have such a significant impact on the performance and survivability of my character. I also don't like the idea that characters with less expieriance beneath their belts might eventually eclipse my character because they got a better roll. I also don't think it makes sense that there is an arbitrary cap on the amount my stats can be increased by rp. I was told by staff that I can't raise them past 'good'. (It'd be great if staff could weigh in on this.)

So, what I would like to see is a reversal of these systems. Rewarding players for rp and not for luck.

I think the random range of stats available at character creation should be shortened. Maybe a range of something like 'average' to 'very good'. This would allow some variability to character performance without rewarding them/punishing them too much for a few random rolls.

Secondly, I think there should be a higher cap for stat increases through rp. By no means, should this be easy. But I think that if my character wanted exceptional strength badly enough and had time (five years?) to train, then I think it should be in his grasp.

I also wouldn't be against awesome stat-scores by special-app either.

Thoughts anyone?

We have defiantly given you a lot to think about, no?

[Gimfalisette]

I don't know. I struggle with this issue, you guys--I don't even really understand y'all's perspective completely. I've never created a character where anything about her was based on stats. I do prioritize my stats based on the character's supposed physical/psychological attributes, but if I don't get the stats that are absolutely perfect for that...I still play the character the way I was planning. I've never had a character with AI wisdom, and yet all of my characters have been smart in one way or another. My one major character who had below average wisdom, she was still smart; but she was slow to learn stuff, and poor at human empathy. I think it would have been a disservice to the game and the playerbase if I had stored or suicided her outright, just because her stat roll was merely OK.

The focus on stats just feels to me like it makes characters so narrow.

[Xygax]

I confess I haven't read this whole thread, so it is likely I will tread ground that has already been trodden, or overlook responding to remarks which deserve a response.  I'll start following it more closely now, though.

Not everyone in the game starts on an even level.  This happens with race, guild, hereditary rank and wealth.  Why should stats be any different?  In our game, just as in life, you are given a range of assets and deficiencies which you must enhance or overcome to survive.  That's part of the game, and should be an opportunity for roleplay.  Find ways to make your characters stats a part of your own play, and I think you'll find the random stats to be a lot more fun.  Especially since we now permit you to order your stats preferentially.

Update: Incidentally, stat-suicide is not an option.  If you feel that your character's stats are totally unplayable, request for storage, do not commit suicide.

-- X

[nyrk]

What if your stats that show on your score reflect your characters *perception* of their stats.

Realistically.  50% of any population is below average, and a nice bell-curve distribution is pretty common.
But ask anyone, if they think they are smart, and everyone believes that they have above average intelligence.

So your score sheet should *show* wisdom scores of everything from above average to AI, wiith Str, Agi, and Enduranced based on similar delusions.

Except HG's I guess,  their scores should show up like this:

Code Select Expand


Strength:  Can carry a wagon around OK. 
Agility:  Can't hit a halfling. 
Endurance: I can walk days without sleep.   
Wisdom:  Huh??


[The7DeadlyVenomz]

The focus on stats just feels to me like it makes characters so narrow.

You know what, though, babe? That's fine for you, and I'd never argue against that. But for some of us, not focusing on stats makes our characters feel narrow. To each their own. I think that offering a lowest_value for the priority system pretty much wipes this issue out all together, for both sides. I think that a lowest_value of 1.good, 2.average, 3.below average, and 4.poor, is fair for both those who care about stats, and those who don't.

Those who care about their stats, go on, I understand. Those who don't, I can feel you all too. Morgenes?? Morgie??!?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Except HG's I guess,  their scores should show up like this:

Code Select Expand


Strength:  Can carry a wagon around OK. 
Agility:  Can't hit a halfling. 
Endurance: I can walk days without sleep.   
Wisdom:  Huh??


HAHAHAHA!

[Desertman]

Please make a note...

I didnt mean I suicide until I get four Absolutely Incredibles.

Which is how all of the elitists are making it sound.

If I get a Ranger with an archery intensive background, who isnt strong enough to pull a longbow. Swim in the Silt Sea.

If I get a Warrior who has Poor Endurance and 75hp. Swim in the Silt Sea.

If I get an Assassin with Below Average Agility or Below Average Wisdom. Swim in the Silt Sea.

If I play, "The frail, skinny-man" - Extremely Good Endurance  - Swim in the Silt Sea.

If I play, "The small, crippled child" - Absolutely Incredible Agility - Swim in the Silt Sea.

If I play, "The down-syndrome man" - Extremely Good Wisdom - Swim in the Silt Sea, special Olympics style.

Having "CRAPPY" stats and killing yourself off for it doesnt mean you have a "Hack and Slash" mentality.

It means you have decided that you will not be able to play this character realistically given the RP criteria you have initially set forth for the PC, and as such, isntead of playing an unrealistic character, you have decided to simply make a new character.


Edited to Add:

Update: Incidentally, stat-suicide is not an option.  If you feel that your character's stats are totally unplayable, request for storage, do not commit suicide.

Well apparently we have a staff stance on it now. Good deal.

[Rahnevyn]

Speaking entirely for myself, my thoughts on stats and stat suiciding:

Armageddon is not meant to be all about hard coded numbers. It's a roleplaying game where you take on a role and tell stories. There are lots of other neat games out there that are more code-focused where you can skill yourself up to be an unstoppable badass, and most of them have better design in that aspect than we do. Armageddon classes aren't balanced, races aren't equal, and the character gen system isn't optimized for powergaming, because they aren't meant to be.

I realise that plenty of people want to roleplay an unstoppable badass anyway, or they just want to feel like their character is strong. I understand that. Rolling crappy stats is a bummer for me, too, and rolling good stats is exciting. But either way it goes, I didn't create a character to be a bundle of stats and skills, I created them to be a person of a certain race who looks a certain way and has a certain background. That's the things you have control over in our game; that's the character you should be intending to play.

Going off and suiciding a character over bad stats tells me you didn't really want to play a character, you wanted to play a bag of stats and skills. Well, to each their own. But down the road, when roles for nobles and templars and merchants open up, we may look at that. Those characters all have to suffer the same random stat rolls everyone else does. How will we trust that you'll stick with a role you applied for if it rolls up bad stats, if you have a tendency to suicide? It takes a lot of effort to set up special roles, and we don't want to see that wasted. The same goes for awarding karma. I like giving karma to players I think portray well thought-out concepts and personalities that will add something to the world. Those are the players that will do the best with high-karma races and guilds, not ones focused on getting absolutely incredible stats.

[Clearsighted]

I don't know. I struggle with this issue, you guys--I don't even really understand y'all's perspective completely. I've never created a character where anything about her was based on stats. I do prioritize my stats based on the character's supposed physical/psychological attributes, but if I don't get the stats that are absolutely perfect for that...I still play the character the way I was planning. I've never had a character with AI wisdom, and yet all of my characters have been smart in one way or another. My one major character who had below average wisdom, she was still smart; but she was slow to learn stuff, and poor at human empathy. I think it would have been a disservice to the game and the playerbase if I had stored or suicided her outright, just because her stat roll was merely OK.

The focus on stats just feels to me like it makes characters so narrow.

The difference is that regardless of the wisdom you roll, it's still possible to play a PC as smart as we want to. Since it relies on our own RL intelligence to an extent. So if your thing is playing smart, witty PCs that sit around writing poetry...You can get it done, regardless of your wisdom score if you can rationalize it in other ways (I.E, them just being empathic).

However, if someone wanted to play a PC that was unusually enduring, unusually strong or unusually swift, it would be entirely different. If someone put something in their background about 'always having had a strong back' or such, then got an above average strength, it would only make themselves an object of ridicule when the 'dainty, raven-haired lass' with the lucky EG strength roll can lift twice as much.

[Xygax]

It's worth noting, also, that requests to have stats reduced are pretty much always granted, so committing suicide or storing over that isn't necessary.

-- X

[Desertman]

Here is one for you....


The longest-lived PC I ever had was my third PC ever. Probably had him over a RL year.

For the entire time, I was such a newbie, I didnt know the Score command, the Skill command, or the Prompt command existed.

I simply didnt know they existed.

I never missed "Stats" or "Skills" in the least.

You cant miss something that you never knew existed.

I had fun with that PC.

To this day, I still have no freaking clue how much HP I had, what my Wisdom was, or if I ever "Branched".

You should have seen my trying to disarm, bash, and kick with that Ranger. I'm sure my other Bynners got a laugh out of me many times looking back on it.

---

So, why do we make stats visible at all?

Its obviously not needed.

We dont make "Skill" levels visible.

Why do we make "Stat" levels visible?

Is there a reason that we "Have" to have that?

Think on that.

[Nyr]

Please make a note...

I didnt mean I suicide until I get four Absolutely Incredibles.

Which is how all of the elitists are making it sound.

If I get a Ranger with an archery intensive background, who isnt strong enough to pull a longbow. Swim in the Silt Sea.

If I get a Warrior who has Poor Endurance and 75hp. Swim in the Silt Sea.

If I get an Assassin with Below Average Agility or Below Average Wisdom. Swim in the Silt Sea.

If I play, "The frail, skinny-man" - Extremely Good Endurance  - Swim in the Silt Sea.

If I play, "The small, crippled child" - Absolutely Incredible Agility - Swim in the Silt Sea.

If I play, "The down-syndrom man" - Extremely Good Wisdom - Swim in the Silt Sea, special Olympics style.

Having "CRAPPY" stats and killing yourself off for it doesnt mean you have a "Hack and Slash" mentality.

It means you have decided that you will not be able to play this character realistically given the RP criteria you have initially set forth for the PC, and as such, isntead of playing an unrealistic character, you have decided to simply make a new character.


Edited to Add:

Update: Incidentally, stat-suicide is not an option.  If you feel that your character's stats are totally unplayable, request for storage, do not commit suicide.

Well apparently we have a staff stance on it now. Good deal.

You could use stat prioritizing in each of those mentioned cases to prevent the outcome of suiciding AND storing.
If your character concept relies a lot on one stat being higher than the rest, you should put that stat first.
Conversely, if your character concept relies a lot on one stat being worse than the rest, you should put that stat last.

[Desertman]

Please make a note...

I didnt mean I suicide until I get four Absolutely Incredibles.

Which is how all of the elitists are making it sound.

If I get a Ranger with an archery intensive background, who isnt strong enough to pull a longbow. Swim in the Silt Sea.

If I get a Warrior who has Poor Endurance and 75hp. Swim in the Silt Sea.

If I get an Assassin with Below Average Agility or Below Average Wisdom. Swim in the Silt Sea.

If I play, "The frail, skinny-man" - Extremely Good Endurance  - Swim in the Silt Sea.

If I play, "The small, crippled child" - Absolutely Incredible Agility - Swim in the Silt Sea.

If I play, "The down-syndrom man" - Extremely Good Wisdom - Swim in the Silt Sea, special Olympics style.

Having "CRAPPY" stats and killing yourself off for it doesnt mean you have a "Hack and Slash" mentality.

It means you have decided that you will not be able to play this character realistically given the RP criteria you have initially set forth for the PC, and as such, isntead of playing an unrealistic character, you have decided to simply make a new character.


Edited to Add:

Update: Incidentally, stat-suicide is not an option.  If you feel that your character's stats are totally unplayable, request for storage, do not commit suicide.

Well apparently we have a staff stance on it now. Good deal.

You could use stat prioritizing in each of those mentioned cases to prevent the outcome of suiciding AND storing.
If your character concept relies a lot on one stat being higher than the rest, you should put that stat first.
Conversely, if your character concept relies a lot on one stat being worse than the rest, you should put that stat last.

Please Note:

Since the implementation of "Stat Ordering" the need to suicide, for me anyways, has been extremely limited.

[Clearsighted]

Here is one for you....


The longest-lived PC I ever had was my third PC ever. Probably had him over a RL year.

For the entire time, I was such a newbie, I didnt know the Score command, the Skill command, or the Prompt command existed.

I simply didnt know they existed.

I never missed "Stats" or "Skills" in the least.

You cant miss something that you never knew existed.

I had fun with that PC.

To this day, I still have no freaking clue how much HP I had, what my Wisdom was, or if I ever "Branched".

You should have seen my trying to disarm, bash, and kick with that Ranger. I'm sure my other Bynners got a laugh out of me many times looking back on it.

---

So, why do we make stats visible at all?

Its obviously not needed.

We dont make "Skill" levels visible.

Why do we make "Stat" levels visible?

Is there a reason that we "Have" to have that?

Think on that.

How did you manage to not only play for a year, but actually survive as a single newb PC for that year...without ever finding out the score, skill and prompt commands? That's actually pretty impressive. Just completely avoided the forums?

[Desertman]

I didnt read the forum for the first two or three years I played the game.

I remember someone asking me what my "GDB Handle" was, and wondering...WTF is a GDB?

You can thank Byn Sergeants Amurac and Stevith for managing to keep me alive.

I actually had the PC about two RL months before I found out what an "Emote" was.

My first ever emote I still remember it...

emote kicks Kyros in the shin.


(Thats right, I put his name in there, Kyros)

You should have seen me trying to figure out ! % ^ ect...man, that was chaotic for me.

I also tried casting spells in the Byn compound with that Ranger....

I had an Excel list to keep everything sorted and ordered, and went through every single possible spell word combination in a fourteen hour period and never casted one spell.

I was confused, to say the least.

I also remember wishing up for the first time with that PC....

I wasnt really sure what an "Immortal" was...I think I saw them as "Gods" or something...because I wished up...

wish all Please dont let me die from this posion oh great Immortals!!! I will offer anything back in return if you will only use your powers to spare me this once!!!

Someone sends: It doesnt really work that way, we are just game staff.

You suddenly feel better.

(Not exact wording, but I remember wishing up and thinking Immortals were actual IC beings)

----

Alright, got me off track...

The point is, we dont need to see our stat levels, there is no reason for it. Except it starts discussions like this.

[nyrk]

So, why do we make stats visible at all?

Its obviously not needed.

We dont make "Skill" levels visible.

Why do we make "Stat" levels visible?

Is there a reason that we "Have" to have that?

Think on that.

Actually it could be pretty cool.
If you wanted to know if you are stronger than someone,  arm-wrestle them.
If you wanted to know if you are smarter than someone,  play some board game with them (a chess-like game maybe, IC, you don't move the pieces, but your character makes the game decisions)
Want an idea of your agility, throw some darts.

Or some compounds would have weights.  See how much you can bench-press...

Basically if you want your stats, find out IC, just like everything else.

[FantasyWriter]

So, why do we make stats visible at all?

Its obviously not needed.

We dont make "Skill" levels visible.

Why do we make "Stat" levels visible?

Is there a reason that we "Have" to have that?

Think on that.

Actually it could be pretty cool.
If you wanted to know if you are stronger than someone,  arm-wrestle them.
If you wanted to know if you are smarter than someone,  play some board game with them (a chess-like game maybe, IC, you don't move the pieces, but your character makes the game decisions)
Want an idea of your agility, throw some darts.

Or some compounds would have weights.  See how much you can bench-press...

Basically if you want your stats, find out IC, just like everything else.

WOW! now THAT is an idea!

[Gimfalisette]

The point is, we dont need to see our stat levels, there is no reason for it.

I do believe I proposed that a while back and everyone seemed to hate the idea. But I'm for it. Still.

OMG I AGREED WITH YOU.

*does the "I agreed with Desertman before he could agree with me" dance*

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

If you had better control over knowing weight when you shop, and if I could still prioritize my stats at chargen, before I got in the game and wasn't sure what they were, then I suppose I could deal with this.

But frankly, I'd rather things were left the heck alone.