Coins..a dicussion on weight, value, and realisticosity

[morrigan]

So, I'm bothered by our currency. Not just one thing, but for many reasons. I'll try to remain concise.

1. How much do they weigh? Obsidian may not be lead, or gold, but it's not the lightest of rocks. People regularly carry around hundreds of them..how logical is that? I know it's been discussed, but I can't remember. How big are they? Penny sized? Quarter sized? Can you imagine carrying 500 quarters around with you everywhere you go? Even without the weight/awkwardness, there's a safety thing to consider, which touches on my next issue. If life is so squalid for the majority of citizens, would you -really want- to carry that much wealth around with you at all times? Especially if crime is as common as the documentation and setting would suggest.

2. Value. We're supposedly living in a place where wealth is hard to come by. Should a basic item really cost 100 coins? Should I really have to spend 20 coins for a semi decent meal that might keep me fed for a day? I would really love to see the cost -and- availability of coins go down a lot. It's annoying, kind of like inflation in the US. "Of course you may purchase this basic bone dagger, that'll be 20,000 obsidian coins. Bank? Why? You don't keep that in your back pocket?!" This is like saying that wealth is limited and hard to come by, but the currency is worth about what the yen was worth in american dollars about a decade ago. I really hate it when my dead-broke rinther has to run to the bank to pull out a few large because he can't carry it with him all the time.

I think that 3 coins being worth pickpocketing somebody would be awesome. I think 100 coins being worth mugging someone for would really add to the mood that's supposed to exist.

[touringCompl3t3]

You're onto something, brother.  But you've missed a couple of things:

1) Coins may be heavy, but it's easy to carry around $5,000 coins if you have coin denominations of $20, $100 and $1,000.  While you and I --could-- bug the coders into creating different coin denominations, the problem would be coding NPCS shops to handle this.  This would be less simple than you'd initially think.  In essence, would you rather have a feature like coin denominations added......or seven new spells??

2) Inflation is the sign of an ailing economy. 

I'm not saying your ideas are bad.  If anything, they're good.  But my question to you is, if implemented, how would your ideas improve my experience as a player?

I still think you're onto something here.

[Delstro]

I definately like where you are going. When I last in the Militia, I got paid 175 an IC month.

With that 175 coins, I could only buy 3 mugs of ale.

I definately love the idea of lowering the cost of everything, but also getting rid of a lot of coin.

It would definately make me feel grittier.

[Malken]

It's nice to 'discuss' things, but do you really thing they will go through the entire economy system of Arm 1 when they're working as hard as they can on Arm 2?

ps: I hope I don't sound like a jerk in the way I wrote this, it's not meant to be, just that I don't think they'll go through the whole process of it for Arm 1 and we don't know how Arm 2 will work.

[Sokotra]

Feel free to roleplay that some of your obsidian pieces are in 20, 50, or 100 'sid denominations.  The pickpocket thing is a good point... but I'm pretty sure that the more 'sid someone is carrying then the more likely you are to pull out larger handfuls of coin.  I think.  So, hmm, I think this is sort of like the diagonal movement thing (ne, nw, se, sw) where playability and simplicity outweighs any benefit of making these things more complicated.  The other problems caused in changing the way things work may not be worth it.

[Marauder Moe]

I don't think we should feel free to roleplay the existence of different obsidian coin denominations.

[morrigan]

Yeah, I'm not sure they would have made coins worth more than 1 coin.. it's all obsidian right? And if they made a coins worth 20 coins...it would just be a coin the size of twenty coins...and even harder to carry around. As for the other responses/questions. It is a bit pointless I suppose. I doubt they'd want to rework the entire economy while making the new game. Perhaps the 2.0 economy will be a bit more realistic and I won't have to purchase a pack animal to carry all my coins around on.

[Sokotra]

I really don't see how it matters all that much.  Hand over 20 'sid and pretend it's just one coin.  *shrug*  I don't bother with anything like that, but it was just a possibility to help out the OP.

[touringCompl3t3]

I really don't see how it matters all that much.  Hand over 20 'sid and pretend it's just one coin.  *shrug*  I don't bother with anything like that, but it was just a possibility to help out the OP.

Actually, I rather like your idea.  It's unnecessary for people to tell each other that players are unable to make small innovations in the game, i.e. that they are not welcome to use their imagination to pretend that 20 or 100 coin denominations exist.  I run into this a lot and find it both stifling and overly conservative. 

Since the question of coin denominations is addressed nowhere in the docs, it seems either accidentally or deliberately left to player discretion.  Making the sort of ad-hoc flourishes of role-play that elicit improvisation are, in my opinion, the height of RPGs and demonstrate spontaneous creativity at best.

While I'm not going to go so far to deliberately annoy other players by walking around game today handing out 100-coin pieces, I wish that they'd realize that they are just as annoying when they throw a fit over somebody RPing something unconventionally. 

It is, after all, a game.  It's not like someone is suggesting moving Orthodox Mass from Greek to l33t speak or something.

[Yam]

It's not really good to suggest things that go against established documentation even if it is clever.

Coins are simply not made in different denominations.

[Qzzrbl]

I'm just waiting to witness a hustler stomping a spice-head for handing over one coin, claiming it's worth 100 'sid.

[touringCompl3t3]

It's not really good to suggest things that go against established documentation even if it is clever.

Coins are simply not made in different denominations.

Actually, I dislike rules-lawyering myself but it seems like the only way to settle this.  Very well.

Money     (General)

Obsidian coins, of Allanaki origin, are the common currency of Zalanthas. Most trade is conducted in obsidian, or 'sid as it is commonly known, although a few of the less cultured nomadic tribes may rely on a barter system.

See also:
    balance, barter, buy, deposit, list, offer, shops, withdraw, obsidian

I did a quick search for coins but didn't turn up anything.

So really, you rather nicely illustrated my point -- that the matter is not as cut & dry, black & white as you would like it to be or like it to appear.  Given that the topic is somewhat murky and rather open-ended, that's why I suggest that tolerance is more in order than trying to tell someone how they can role-play.

I think it's very tempting to assume that someone is doing something wrong merely because they're doing it differently than you currently do it or different than you have always done it, however in my experience this has been incorrect more often than not.

[Yam]

You are carrying:
858 obsidian pieces

[Lizzie]

Well if you want to get nit-picky about it then Yam, people need to stop emoting that they're pulling out a pouch of coins, when there is no pouch. And they need to stop emoting that they don't know how many coins they have..that they have to count them, when the established documentation clearly states exactly how many they have.

That's being nitpicky. Being un-nitpicky would be to check the established documentation on the help file of money, which doesn't mention whether sids are in any partcicular denomination at all.

Of course if you looked at a single coin, you would see that it is around the size of a fingernail. And if you had 875 of those puppies in your inventory, not in a pouch, or pocket, but just loose somehow (since you're being nitpicky about using "inv" as the established documentation), then you need to roleplay how in hell you're able to have so many of these fingernail-sized coins in your inventory without them being in a virtual pouch.

Or - you can pretend (which is something people do in roleplay games sometimes, to balance out the nitpickiness of established documentation with playability), that you actually have five 100-denomination coins, 4 50-denomination coins, 4 20-denomination coins, and a fistful of singles.

Personally I don't do it that way. Personally, I use the virtual non-existent pouch, bypassing the code that allows us to have actual pouches, and emoting out counting out coins from a stack that my character doesn't necessarily know the total value of until she counts it, even though typing INV will tell me exactly how much that is.

[Yam]

A virtual pouch is completely different from virtual denominations of coins.

The use of a virtual pouch does not impose anything onto anyone else.

Using denominations of coins does. It means that there are different types of coins. You're changing the game when you really shouldn't be. You're overstepping you're ability to manipulate the world just like you would be if you emote there being different coins for Tuluk and Allanak.

There is established documentation against different denominations of coins. It's in your inventory and your bags. In the coins. The hundreds of little black bits of obsidian that are each worth one unit of monetary value.

I don't want to seem snarky or get this out of hand but a lack of documentation on something doesn't mean that it's okay to make it exist. Especially when there are already coded precedents against such existence. It is not at all like using a virtual pouch.

[Sokotra]

I use the virtual pouch system myself and don't like the denomination idea that I mentioned all that much either, but I wouldn't go nuts about someone using it.  But yeah, if the coins are only the size of a fingernail, then carrying hundreds and hundreds of them probably isn't going to weigh you down all that much.  In fact, I think I start getting a little weighed down after carrying more than 1000 of them or so which is probably about right, in my opinion. 

I'm just waiting to witness a hustler stomping a spice-head for handing over one coin, claiming it's worth 100 'sid.

Heh, yeah, that would make for an... interesting situation.  However, nobody is suggesting that people pretend that one obsidian piece is worth 100 'sid.(unless, of course, you're an elf)  Doing the opposite and handing over 100 'sid and saying it is just one coin (like a hundred dollar bill) may not be such a big deal.  No, I don't like it much either, but like Lizzie said, it is getting a bit nitpicky if people are going to flip out about it.  I was just giving the OP an option since they seemed to think it was awful that we are carrying around hundreds of 'sid.

Anyway... It's really just a moot point if the coins are only the size of a fingernail.

[Qzzrbl]

I use the virtual pouch system myself and don't like the denomination idea that I mentioned all that much either, but I wouldn't go nuts about someone using it.  But yeah, if the coins are only the size of a fingernail, then carrying hundreds and hundreds of them probably isn't going to weigh you down all that much.  In fact, I think I start getting a little weighed down after carrying more than 1000 of them or so which is probably about right, in my opinion. 

I'm just waiting to witness a hustler stomping a spice-head for handing over one coin, claiming it's worth 100 'sid.

Heh, yeah, that would make for an... interesting situation.  However, nobody is suggesting that people pretend that one obsidian piece is worth 100 'sid.(unless, of course, you're an elf)  Doing the opposite and handing over 100 'sid and saying it is just one coin (like a hundred dollar bill) may not be such a big deal.  No, I don't like it much either, but like Lizzie said, it is getting a bit nitpicky if people are going to flip out about it.  I was just giving the OP an option since they seemed to think it was awful that we are carrying around hundreds of 'sid.

Anyway... It's really just a moot point if the coins are only the size of a fingernail.

Hah, I'm just picturing this here....

Code Select Expand


give hustler 100 coins (flipping a single coin int ^hustler direction with a nod)

tell hustler (dropping another nod) Aye, 'dat should cover me, aye?

The pimpish, slick-backed hustler arches an eyebrow, inspecting a single obsidian coin.

The pimpish, slick-backed hustler says to you in Sirihish, leaning slightly on his cane, "Bitch, you got five seconds to tell me what kind of shit this is."

tell hustler (stammering slightly) Well... Y'see, tha's worth a small, yah?

The pimpish, slick-backed hustler says to you in Sirihish, shaking his head a few times, "Nuh uhh, no. I don't play that damn game."

The pimpish, slick-backed hustler says in Sirihish, to a massive, brutish brute, before stepping off westwards "Baruto, I think you know what to do."

The massive, brutish brute drops a nod to the pimpish, slick-backed hustler, turning his beady gaze to you.

The massive, brutish brute promptly stomps a pretty brick of spice.

The massive, brutish brute says OOC, "Er.... Mistarget."

The massive, brutish brute promptly stomps you.

Kinda makes me want to play a hustler now....

[Malken]

I enjoy tossing my huge pile of 2000 obsidian coins on the bar and taking a whole five minutes to count it all, one at a time, before passing it over to whoever it is I am trading with.

I'm surprised that people are even still trading with me!

[morrigan]

As I stated before..

Logic needs to apply, even in fantasy. Pretending there are different denomination of coins wouldn't work. It's just obsidian, it's not backed by gold. It's the actual coin that has value, it's not representative of something else.
The reason we have different denominations in RL is because that $10 bill was originally meant to be worth a certain amount of (silver) then gold.

1 obsidian coin has the value of a small flake of obsidian as far as I'm aware, so denominations are out. I'm not entirely sure why everyone got so upset with Yam for weighing in. Let's try to remember that just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't meat they're attacking you personally.

As for the virtual pouch thing, it's well established and easy to understand that it's fine to RP having small things that don't really make a difference. I sometimes RP using some scraps of cloth to bandage wounds, or RP tearing a strip from my crappy clothes if it's an emergency. Both of those things are backed by code. If I wore the proper cloak, I could actually tear it up, but sometimes, I just want a little bit....not a whole cloak's worth. :p

Anyhow...let's chill, k? The point of this post was the unlogicisticness of the currency system, not the crapulence of RP methods.

[Sephiroto]

Normally I count mine in stacks and use the virtual pouch to divy everything out.

Bringing back the discussion of economy (the value aspect of this post), I'd like to see more affordable food and drinks and more expensive weapons and armor.  Right now you can buy, for instance, three cups of water at the Gaj or a very good sword/spear/axe at Salarr.  That just doesn't add up.  Think of how a Feudal-times economy would affect our game.  All but the most meager of mounts, weapons, and armor were expensive in those times and typically only nobility or very rich sorts could afford to be knights or professional fighters unless they were sponsored by a large organization or government (Army/Militia). 

Those changes could really add to the gritty atmosphere of the game and really make working for a large organization such as a Merchant or Noble House a fianancial perk.  Right now it is all too common for people to work as independants because it is easier to hoarde more property, coin, and gear without the restrictions of a clan.

[Ammut]

Instead of seeing different denominations, I'd like to see different types of currency.  Maybe some Tuluki wooden coins or glass coins from some other city.

That way, we could wage economic warfare on other city-states without lifting a blade.

[Qzzrbl]

Pretending there are different denomination of coins wouldn't work. It's just obsidian, it's not backed by gold.

Tch, that chip of obsidian is worth as much as the Highlord says it's worth.

[Delstro]

Normally I count mine in stacks and use the virtual pouch to divy everything out.

Bringing back the discussion of economy (the value aspect of this post), I'd like to see more affordable food and drinks and more expensive weapons and armor.  Right now you can buy, for instance, three cups of water at the Gaj or a very good sword/spear/axe at Salarr.  That just doesn't add up.  Think of how a Feudal-times economy would affect our game.  All but the most meager of mounts, weapons, and armor were expensive in those times and typically only nobility or very rich sorts could afford to be knights or professional fighters unless they were sponsored by a large organization or government (Army/Militia). 

Those changes could really add to the gritty atmosphere of the game and really make working for a large organization such as a Merchant or Noble House a fianancial perk.  Right now it is all too common for people to work as independants because it is easier to hoarde more property, coin, and gear without the restrictions of a clan.

I think this deserves its own thread it is such an awesome thought.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Pretending there are different denomination of coins wouldn't work. It's just obsidian, it's not backed by gold.

Tch, that chip of obsidian is worth as much as the Highlord says it's worth.

I'm gonna agree, here.  I never really got the feeling that obsidian coins were valuable because of the amount of obsidian they contained, but because the Highlord said, "Hey, these are currency," and that was that.  I'd be fine with multiple denominations, though I opt not to roleplay as though there are.  I'd love to get some staff clarification, though.

[Thunkkin]

Tch, that chip of obsidian is worth as much as the Highlord says it's worth.

Praise be His Shadow.

[morrigan]

So..what you're saying is that Tek is so powerful, that the objects he decided were currency, became the common currency of the entire known world? Wonder how Muk feels about the fact that he's such a pushover that his city uses the currency designated by Tektolnes?

[Yam]

Yeah, well, Tuluk has art.


snicker

[Delstro]

Well, there are two kinds of coins. One kind can be seen a "A single allanaki coin" and a "single obsidian coin" OR whatever the exacts are. Try it. "drop 1 coins"

[NoteworthyFellow]

So..what you're saying is that Tek is so powerful, that the objects he decided were currency, became the common currency of the entire known world? Wonder how Muk feels about the fact that he's such a pushover that his city uses the currency designated by Tektolnes?

They are called Allanaki obsidian coins in-game.

[mangler]

Yeah it has always kind of bugged me how your in Tuluk and your passing round 'Allanaki coins'.

[Tisiphone]

Yeah it has always kind of bugged me how your in Tuluk and your passing round 'Allanaki coins'.

Cultural holdover from the Occupation.

[Cutthroat]

Pretending there are different denomination of coins wouldn't work. It's just obsidian, it's not backed by gold.

Tch, that chip of obsidian is worth as much as the Highlord says it's worth.

I'm gonna agree, here.  I never really got the feeling that obsidian coins were valuable because of the amount of obsidian they contained, but because the Highlord said, "Hey, these are currency," and that was that.  I'd be fine with multiple denominations, though I opt not to roleplay as though there are.  I'd love to get some staff clarification, though.

It's certainly possbile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_currency

It's the "system" currently used in the United States, and other countries as well.

[flurry]

The value of an Allanaki coin could derive from water.  Think about it: the city will accept a certain amount of these coins for a certain amount of water. That's not to say that the amounts couldn't change, but the point is the city has a direct way of setting what a coin's worth.

[Qzzrbl]

The value of an Allanaki coin could derive from water.  Think about it: the city will accept a certain amount of these coins for a certain amount of water. That's not to say that the amounts couldn't change, but the point is the city has a direct way of setting what a coin's worth.

Again, however much the Highlord says that obsidian chip is worth = How much that obsidian chip is worth.

Not a good idea to question his word or try to make sense of his decrees. 

I don't know about all of you, but if the Highlord said that a handful of salt and sand is viable currency at any establishment in HIS city, I wouldn't sit around and scratch my ass thinking, "Gee, why would he do that?"

I would be too busy grebbing out in the salt flats, filling up massive bags full of salt and sand.

[Maso]

When you try and relate Zalanthas currency and prices to RL ones...none of it makes sense. I for one would like to see it make a little more sense. I can easily relate 'sid to the sterling, by starting with an item I see as reasonably priced and then relating other items.

Apartments go for 250 'sid right up to 2000ish 'sid. In the UK £250-£2000 is spot on for home. But then you pay £11 for a bag flour? £100 for a cheap pair of shoes? £8 for a piece of fruit? £50+ for a piece of meat? £10+ for a drink? Even £1 for a piece of rotton bread. That makes food ridiculously expensive, especially on the flour issue (I'm talking before the shortage). Wages I would say, are also pretty spot on in terms of the value of housing, a lower end citizen can probably scrape enough together to live in a dingy flat while a high end citizen gets paid enough to live in a better flat. It's the cost of LIVING that makes everything go wrong. Food/anemities are just far too expensive, for me this makes the game less enjoyable. My average wealth character should not be choosing between a new sword and a hunk of meat, he should be choosing between a new sword and five weeks worth of groceries.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

This is a true fact. However, I think it's that way because unless we boost the average blade to 500 coins (which frankly I wouldn't mind, but I'm a sadist), food will end up being too cheap and easy to get, and the RL worry of starving to death won't occur.

So you're right, but you're wrong, though I would love to hear solutions while maintaining the need-to-survive aspect of the game.

[NoteworthyFellow]

One thing that I only recently started to take into account is that your character still needs to eat and drink while you're not playing them.  The high food and water prices, I think, can be taken to simulate the cost of the food and water your character consumed while you weren't online.

[Marauder Moe]

Except it seems like the game assumes that in addition to your coded salary you also earn a virtual salary for the virtual work you did offline.  That virtual salary is used to buy the virtual food you eat while offline.

However, I do agree that food and drink shouldn't be so pricey compared to clothing and equipment.

I suspect the reason it is so expensive is to make starvation/dehydration a real threat to characters that really don't have a consistent income.  However, to be honest, just about everyone figures out how to keep above it one way or another.  If anything, the only effect it really has is to discourage unclanned characters (particularly ones that rely on other PCs for money rather than coded sources of income, like beggars, indy bards, etc) from remaining unclanned.  Perhaps that aspect of the game needs to be abandoned.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Except it seems like the game assumes that in addition to your coded salary you also earn a virtual salary for the virtual work you did offline.  That virtual salary is used to buy the virtual food you eat while offline.

However, I do agree that food and drink shouldn't be so pricey compared to clothing and equipment.

I suspect the reason it is so expensive is to make starvation/dehydration a real threat to characters that really don't have a consistent income.  However, to be honest, just about everyone figures out how to keep above it one way or another.  If anything, the only effect it really has is to discourage unclanned characters (particularly ones that rely on other PCs for money rather than coded sources of income, like beggars, indy bards, etc) from remaining unclanned.  Perhaps that aspect of the game needs to be abandoned.

Well, looking at it that way, I'm inclined to agree.

[morrigan]

Only problem with all that is, some people log on for 8 or more hours a day. I don't anymore, but I used to. Food gets -really- expensive when you're on that long. Unless you're a hunter. They have so much food they should all be obese :p lol...that just gave me a funny image. Instead of the current ruling systems, Zalanthas should be ruled by bands of hunters who control all the food income.

[Sephiroto]

The OP originally asked how much a coin weighs.  They weigh a little more than .005 stone each.