Zalanthan names, not just for Arm 2.0, but for today!

[brytta.leofa]

However, I don't see how reusing a name can be considered stealing.  Sure, OOCly you may have invented it, but did your character's parents ICly invent it?

Intellectual property dear?  Thats stealing. 

I'm not a lawyer, but would suspect that asserting intellectual "property" rights (you're referring to U.S. copyright law, I suppose?) on material that you've submitted to Armageddon staff to be approved for in-game use would be a dicey proposition.

Anyway, I'd love to see culturally specific guidelines posted for character names.  Right now we've got just slightly more of a mishmash than I'd like.

[Desertman]

The only time I would see a problem with re-using a name would be if it was just obviously copied from a previous character/NPC.


For example...

You can only have so many Gunthry The Wild Inix Warrior...men running around.


Of course, to argue against my own arguement...

It seems like you would see more Tektolnes characters.

I mean, I know atleast five people named Jesus.

Its sort of the same thing right?

[brytta.leofa]

If two characters share a very unusual name, there probably should be a good in-character explanation.  And we might expect that a character named after a famous person was born after the namesake Got Famous.

I'd love to see more commoners named after nobles, though.

> say (brightly, curtseying) Yes, Lady Borsail. M'name's Sighlara.

[Marauder Moe]

I suspect most templars would take issue with someone named Tektolnes, hehe.

However, in Arm 2.0 I wouldn't be surprised if people started naming children after Tek or Muk.


Also, I'm only talking about first names here.  I'm not advocating that it's ok to be named Pearl Terash or Kexxsa Tallid unless perhaps you had approval from those players to have a character who was actually related.

In real life family names are much more diverse than first names, and thus I would not advocate reusing those without permission from the player who created that family.  (Actually it might be interesting if people wanted to pass off the family trees of dead characters to other players who want a richer sense of lineage, but that's another topic.)

[Desertman]

I dont want to see people named after OOC'ly famous characters. IC'ly famous characters would be fine.


For example...


If you have a Ranger named William Wallace, that lived 150 days, but that entire 150 days was spent solo hunting, sitting in taverns, just being a commoner.

Sure, everyone would know your PC's name, they would have seen you with about 10 of thier own characters over a couple of RL years. You would be famous from an OOC standpoint, all of the players would know your character was a real frickin' badass.

I would hate to see more characters named William Wallace later on, after this ranger PC, because he wasnt IC'ly famous.


Now, if you had a 20 day warrior named Tallimbre The Merciful, who was the two time Arena Champion of Allanak, he would be IC'ly famous, and it wouldnt bother me at all to see a couple of pc's later on named Tallimbre.

[Ender]

Anyway, I'd love to see culturally specific guidelines posted for character names.  Right now we've got just slightly more of a mishmash than I'd like.

My feelings as well.  I'd rather see more of a rough guideline for social naming trends in various locations than a list of popular names.

For example (and by no means how it really is or could be)

Allanak:

Names tend to be one or two syllables and a mixture of the names of the parentage among the commoners.  So if the father was Amos and the mother was Malik a son could be named Malmos as cutting out a few letters to keep with the syllabic standard is not uncommon.  This practice makes the addition of middle or last names almost unheard of among the normal commonbase.  Last names among the known world generally denote belonging to a large and wealthy family organization such as a Great Merchant House or an entire tribe.

On the other hand nobles of Allanak tend to favor long and complicated names, often an amalgamation of a number of ancestors.  Normally these names are split between two names, a first and a middle name, one to denote the maternal side and one the paternal side.  The first name is dependent on which parent was a member of their birth house, or if birth through blooded cousins, which was of higher status at the birth.

Tuluk:  

Last names for normal commoner families are as well rare outside of Great Merchant Houses and bardic circles, instead Tulukis pride themselves on originality in their naming to prevent confusion.  Trends change like the wind in the growing citystate, but rarely will you see people named in honor of others, though names based on concepts or proper names for various animals, plants, days of the week, etc. are somewhat common.

As for the nobility naming standards are different from House to House, but generally follow similar trends to those of the commoners.  First names are individual to the Chosen and are selected carefully usually after parents consult records or a master bard to see if the name has been used before.  To name a young noble after a living noble is considered a great insult, though naming one after one who has already passed is only just a social embarrassment.  Middle names normally bare some significance about what the parents wish for their children, and are normal concept driven names taken from other languages like a name that would mean "strong of will" in bendune.



With all things we add to the documentation we have to keep what our goal is in mind.  We want the game to be more immersive and deep.  A list of popular names won't do that, but a rich detailing of what names mean and how they are formed from place to place can really add depth to your character and the culture they are apart of.

[Marauder Moe]

A fair point.

Though, my theory is that it's not like you would be naming your characters directly after someone else's character.  Simply that that we could consider most characters' names to be typical Zalanthan names and that there are lots of unrelated Zalanthans who share it.

However, I think it's also fair enough that if a previous PC of yours heard someone's name spoken in a public place, then perhaps the vNPC parents of a future PC of yours were in the same room and heard the same name and liked it.

[Furious George]

Well, as a point of reference, and I might well be wrong...I've yet to ever run into another dwarf named Thrain.

I'd just be happy if Amos disappeared, despite his glorious cookies.

[Marauder Moe]

In Allanak it might not be wise to name your child Thrain.  Someone making a Tuluki or tribal dwarf might want to consider it, though.

That said, I did actually see a character in the last few months named after a historical figure.  Kudos to that guy.

I have never met an Amos.  I think the last time the staff gave statistics, there were really only 7 characters with that name since the system started keeping track.

My whole point is that its realistic for names to be re-used, and I think people should do it more often.  (Also, am I the only one who's ever made characters with names that were deliberately not evocative of my character concept?)

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I dont want to see people named after OOC'ly famous characters. IC'ly famous characters would be fine.


For example...


If you have a Ranger named William Wallace, that lived 150 days, but that entire 150 days was spent solo hunting, sitting in taverns, just being a commoner.

Sure, everyone would know your PC's name, they would have seen you with about 10 of thier own characters over a couple of RL years. You would be famous from an OOC standpoint, all of the players would know your character was a real frickin' badass.

I would hate to see more characters named William Wallace later on, after this ranger PC, because he wasnt IC'ly famous.


Now, if you had a 20 day warrior named Tallimbre The Merciful, who was the two time Arena Champion of Allanak, he would be IC'ly famous, and it wouldnt bother me at all to see a couple of pc's later on named Tallimbre.

All this. Absolutely agreed on.

[flurry]

Cultural guidelines for names, in a similar vein to those style/clothing guidelines, would be terrific.

The OP's suggestion isn't a bad idea at all, but I personally enjoy coming up with names for my characters.

[ale six]

I've seen characters over the years named after famous templars like Ihsahn and Sathis and Eunoli. I think this would be a normal thing for commoners to do. Naming after famous bards (Holten, Methyas, ... ) or famous arena champions/badasses (Paryl, Sujaal, ... ) or famous merchants (Pearl, Sargax, ... ) would also probably be pretty common, I'd expect.

If you're naming your kids after a templar or noble, a wise parent might change the name a bit, or give the kid another name to go by. After all, if Sighlara Borsail is a huge drunken floozy, her namesake's relatives might want to make her disappear to avoid, ah, any comparisons being made.

My own rule of thumb is that dirt-poor common characters would have really simple names, or even be named after objects or animals (Flower, Dagger, Serpent, Joz). Average commoner characters have just one first name, two to three syllables. Wealthier upper class commoners would have a longer or more complicated first name, and maybe even a last name if they have a wealthy and established virtual family. Nobles and templars usually have a complicated first name and one or more middle names, which might be based off of former relatives in their family. (Ceylara Borsail's middle name 'Ellandris' was taken from her NPC great-aunt, Ellandra Borsail.)

In terms of guidelines for naming, I agree it'd be cool if we had some kind of cultural guidelines. I noticed with House Borsail that lots and lots of their names happened to start with V (Vedelarin, Visandach), so I used that convention when inventing vNPC family. I think it'd be more common for established families with documented lineage to have more coherent conventions than your average commoner, though. Kadians and Kuraci and Winrothols etc can trace their heritage way way back, but average Amos probably doesn't even know who his grandpappy was.

[Ammut]

Would it be plausible to have certain cultural trends that might make it easier to create a name?

For instance, in the south, maybe most of the children's names are three syllables long, with a stress on the first
two syllables.

Keenuu-gi
Vaaluu-ka

Whereas in the north, names might also be three syllables long, but with a stress on the last syllable.

Aminraa

You get the idea, right? It kind of reminds of that guy from ESPN who has problems with four syllable words.
Mag-nif-i-cent.  Spec-tac-u-lar.  A-rug-a-la.

[tarsier]

I don't understand why people would pissed if someone used their old PC's name.

Having PC's with the same name should be okay... in one city, IRL, there are probably 1000's of John's and Jane's.
It should be similar in Allanak.

Even if someone did name their PC WIllliam Wallace, after the OOCly famous ranger, it should be okay, because that particular character probably wasn't the first WIlliam Wallace in Zalanthas history... see my point?


Also, if we were to compile a list, I think breeds wouldn't have their own... they would simply chose one from either the Human or Elf list.

[Kyviantre]

UK intellectual property law, not USA copyright law.  It was a while since I created my account, but I don't remember agreeing to giving up the rights to my intellectual property when I created it, ergo whats-mine-is-mine, whats-yours-is-yours, and if I want to borrow, I ask.

Like I said, feel free to go with customs, or a large list (either from people offering up their character names as suggestions, or of 'famous' folk), but I will not (never ever ever) agree that you should just be allowed to swipe someone else's name, whether they are living or dead.  Basing a character name off someone else's is fine, asking them if you can swipe part/the whole of their name and getting approval is fine, both are good things in my eyes (ie do them!  Go forth and enjoy what it brings you!).

But I would still be pissed.  I work hard on my characters, I work hard on their names, I would be severely irritated to find that someone had stolen an idea (not just liked the general concept and ran with it, but literally taken it nearly word-for-word), or a name without asking if I was fine with it.

...and I've encountered two people in the past year with the same 'famous-person-name', one male, one female.  Absolutely nothing wrong with swiping part/all of an NPC name, or rather, an important/famous NPC.  The nobles/Templars, while you might want to mangle the name a little, being named after Daddy's Favourite Party-Fale might be fine (still mulling that one, but so far brain hasn't thrown up any huge objections), but being named after commoner-Amos-#237...purely because you were bored and couldn't be assed to think up something original?  That, I really don't like.

So sure, culturally applicable types of names (everyone in the south begins with T, everyone in Luir's ends in 'essa' if its a girl, everyone in the north has fourteen letters in their name), fine.  But making it compulsary to share names...that I really, strongly, very-much-so don't like.

[Marauder Moe]

Well, for one, I don't believe I nor Armageddon MUD falls under UK IP law.

Two, I suspect that even in the UK the law doesn't consider every single damned thing you say or type to be intellectual property, particularly when you post it on the internet without a copyright notice.

Three, I understand you're upset with the prospect of someone using one of your characters' names, but I still for the life of me don't understand why.  Does it harm you?  Do you think someone is going to make a character with one of "your" names, play poorly, and then people are going to think it reflects badly on you?  Do you think they're going to make money off of the name?

but being named after commoner-Amos-#237...purely because you were bored and couldn't be assed to think up something original?  That, I really don't like.

You think I'm lazy?  That's not it at all!  My intent is to help start a realistic Zalanthan naming tradition, and in real life people don't make up names, they choose them.  I'm asking people to consider choosing Zalanthan names (ie names that Zalanthans have used, ie names of past characters) rather than load up a random name generator.

[Rairen]

Although without Kyv's militancy, I think I know what she means.  I once fell in love with an sdesc of mine.  It suited the character, had the right sound, was something I had never seen before.  A month later, a PC strolls in in newbie gear wearing a very similiar sdesc and, I was ticked.  Admittedly, it lasted all of a minute.  Admittedly, I've never confessed it to anyone before now.  But, yeah.  I couldn't believe I had that powerful of a reaction.  

Back on topic, I've always, always, always wanted cultural guidelines for character names.  Given that the divide between north and south is so narrow, OOCly, I think it's another way to help highlight those differences.

Further, on the name reusing issue, by playing Arm, you're throwing your 'creative property' into the communal pool.  There's no way to enforce that someone can't steal your name (other muds do; I rather prefer our method).  Likewise with signature emotes, clever sayings, or anything else you're proud of that you so much as type out.   As such, if it's a sincere problem - a problem greater than the pleasure you get from the game - I'd say you should pay somewhere else where you can greater control it.  Otherwise, it's part of the exchange for playing within a sharing community in which we build stories as a group.  You lose control.

[Kyviantre]

Making up a name, nicknames, a sdesc, a long desc, character quirks, a history, a family, to me, thats all part of the creative process of what I do when I make my character.

And once again, saying the same thing.  I have absolutely no problem with you doing as you like, but I strongly think you should only allow names into the 'pot' of people -willing- to allow their carefully thought up name to be used.

If Username wants her name 'Bob' to be a widely known name for children with red hair because in elvish 'Bob' means 'red', then let her add it.

If Nameuser wants to play 'Ken', and has it in their background/idea of the char that the name means sweet FA, and called themselves it because they thought it sounded pretty, and wants to keep that creational process to themselves, then I don't feel that you have the right to 'steal' that name and claim it for your own.

It is different with nicknames (ie raptor/scrab/dagger/Tho/Stumpy/etc), those are common ground/knowledge, but character names should be optional, in that you can choose to let them be used as 'common' names or not.

That solves your problem.  It solves my militancy (thank you Rairen).  Everyone is happy.

[Marauder Moe]

And once again, saying the same thing.  I have absolutely no problem with you doing as you like

If you have no problem, then stop suggesting that anyone who does this would be a thief and stop threatening them with prosecution under IP law.

but I strongly think you should only allow names into the 'pot' of people -willing- to allow their carefully thought up name to be used.

Name banks have been tried and didn't really pan out.  Maybe it would be more efficient to make a list of "reserved" names that people don't want to share?

If Nameuser wants to play 'Ken', and has it in their background/idea of the char that the name means sweet FA, and called themselves it because they thought it sounded pretty, and wants to keep that creational process to themselves, then I don't feel that you have the right to 'steal' that name and claim it for your own.

No one is going to take someone's name and claim they invented it.  They're just going to use it for a character.  Besides, I think any Zalanthan parent is perfectly within their rights to give their child any name they heard spoken in public.

That solves your problem.  It solves my militancy (thank you Rairen).  Everyone is happy.

I'm not happy.  You're still accusing me of conspiracy to commit some sort of theft.

EDIT: and I still don't understand why you object so strongly, though I'm willing to accept that it may be an irrational feeling you simply can't explain.

[tarsier]

Maybe it would be more efficient to make a list of "reserved" names that people don't want to share?

Sorry, but this would just be ridiculous.

[BreakBad]

No one is going to take someone's name and claim they invented it.  They're just going to use it for a character.  Besides, I think any Zalanthan parent is perfectly within their rights to give their child any name they heard spoken in public.

I agree with this. I really don't see using names you've heard  before as a problem.

[Delstro]

I would prefer that instead of saying we can/cannot use names from previous unrelated characters. I prefer that we declare naming standards for races. This is just a rough idea while I wait for lunch.

For instance:
Elvish names would be heavily inundated with vowels, meaningful names (such as the Allundean word for Gwoshi shit would be Nesht), etc.
Human Names would be average in that it takes naming conventions from all other species.
Dwarves were born by their parents to accomplish the parents' plans in some way. Dwarves would always have names that meant something. Their names could be translated easily into another language for the most part. I envision them being translated into simple, real objects. They would be named ridge, Tor, Fale, Road, Krath's Strength, and not so much named after people.
Half-elvish names would be dependent on what race their raisers were.
Mulish names would most likely be named after famous noble people to further their marketing. These could be names from Myths, Stories, History, etc. Or they could be very simple names such as Mul 215. Bco 3rd (which stands for Bravo Company, 3rd Division) and these names would change depending on where they were stationed.
Half-Giant names would most likely be named after simple ideas, objects, or names from myths, stories, and songs. This is because of their ingrained ability to blend in a society. What better way to blend than pick an idea Song hero you like and name your kid after it?

[FantasyWriter]

I would prefer that instead of saying we can/cannot use names from previous unrelated characters. I prefer that we declare naming standards for races. This is just a rough idea while I wait for lunch.

For instance:
Elvish names would be heavily inundated with vowels, meaningful names (such as the Allundean word for Gwoshi shit would be Nesht), etc.
Human Names would be average in that it takes naming conventions from all other species.
Dwarves were born by their parents to accomplish the parents' plans in some way. Dwarves would always have names that meant something. Their names could be translated easily into another language for the most part. I envision them being translated into simple, real objects. They would be named ridge, Tor, Fale, Road, Krath's Strength, and not so much named after people.
Half-elvish names would be dependent on what race their raisers were.
Mulish names would most likely be named after famous noble people to further their marketing. These could be names from Myths, Stories, History, etc. Or they could be very simple names such as Mul 215. Bco 3rd (which stands for Bravo Company, 3rd Division) and these names would change depending on where they were stationed.
Half-Giant names would most likely be named after simple ideas, objects, or names from myths, stories, and songs. This is because of their ingrained ability to blend in a society. What better way to blend than pick an idea Song hero you like and name your kid after it?

The tall, crew-cut-headed man says in southern accented English,
"Ah like it ah-laht."

[Marauder Moe]

All that sounds like work, though.  Immortal work too, even.

We'd not only need to compile a list of names, but also make basically a partial dictionary for several languages, and have it all approved by the staff.

I'm trying to avoid making anyone do significant large-scale work because otherwise it probably won't get done (like all the other times people suggested/tried to set up a name bank).

[Delstro]

I would just say "This is the Typical Zalanthan naming convention." "Here are a few examples." "Rock on."