Limiting Magickers

[Kill4Free]

Ill bring up those 4 points once more, the first point, wasnt actually a point, I dont know how you can say there was a negative or positive aspect of it really.  It was an opinion, wether right or wrong is an opinion, not a negative or positive side to it.  Though if you agreed with my opinion and took it as fact, you might view it that way, so I will address it that way as that is the only way it makes sense.  Limiting magickers solely because there is no negative aspect to it, is sorta stupid first of all, and since I said that is all it will do, and you agreed to that, there isnt any other statement that might be made about that issue.

I'm sorry, what I meant to say...Instead of..."I dont see any negatives"...was..."I see major positives". Sorry to confuse you there.

That still doesnt make sense if you actually read what I typed, I said, there is no negative or positive aspect, it was an opinion.  Now here you go saying that statement, which truly shows you  little you pay attention, and then say I am confused?  Sorry I guess I shall write simpler for you.

The second one, the negative side is that after a short time, pretty much no one can make magickers.

That would be the point to limiting. The magickers have already been made, thus the slots are filled, thus they are limited. You will still be able to make magickers, but only when slots become open. Like Templars, and Noble/Merchant Family members now. This process is already used for other classes/guilds/roles, this would just expanded a process that already works, to magickers as well.

Not only that, but it really doesnt lower the chance of anyone dying to magickers.

Really? Its seems to me that "less magickers" = Less potential magicker deaths. Unless you are saying the potential to die to a magicker is the same, regardless of numbers. 10 magickers = more risk than 5 magickers. Right? Maybe my simple elementary math is off, I could be wrong.

First of all again (sigh) if you read what I was typing, I said that only the long lived magickers who have their spells maxed would be alive, those are the ones that are a threat, also the ones taking up the limiting slots.  The other half of the magickers, yes, the other 5, will pretty much be useless for quite a while, and, as things stand will most likely die before they become truly dangerous.

  Might even increase it because they cant really take more risks by letting certain people live.  And the problem the bulk of the playerbase has is that magickers kill people too easily.



I dont know what to say to this, since I have no clue how to respond to..."Less magickers = more potential magicker deaths". It would be like trying to argue with gravity I think.

Yep, you are right, you dont have a clue.  The magickers who do exist, all of a sudden, if there is a limit, and they die, the will most likely not be able to make a magicker again for quite a while.  Lots of magickers currently play it, easy, and dont really try to run around and spam kill people, and let people off if they think they could be a threat, because worst case, they die and make a new one.  Though if they die and cant make a new one, they would reguard threats to their survival much more seriously.

The third point relates back to your previous argument that you run into magickers too often.  Putting a limit on wont change that at all really, as I just explained.



Again, less magickers = less potential magicker encounters. I still fail to see how reducing the number of magickers doesnt reduce the number of magickers there are to encounter. Please explain that, how having less of something, means you encounter it just as much?

Again, you not only ignored the part where I explained why, I even said I explained why in your quote, and you didnt even include the explanation.  This is what I am talking about, you are ignoring half of what I say.  I will mention it again though so even you can grasp what I am saying.  A lot of the magickers dont actually come into the open as soon as they make their character, they wait until they have enough skill to at least have a chance at surviving, as many people do hate magickers and would love a chance to kill one.  So most of the magickers that you actively see, are the long lived ones, the ones who are confident in their abilities to deal with threats.

The fourth point, is not mundanes going into hiding, I played a lot of characters and I have not had this massive magicker issue, and I am sure many of the players are the same way.  If you run into too many you have several options, one is move somewhere, where you can rp the way that you want to rp, where you are scared.  That is your choice to role play like that, and it is also your choice to put yourself in a situation where you are able to rolel play like that.  Saying stuff like, oh the game is wrong, it doesnt fit my characters RP style is just childish.


Matter of preference and opinion. You are entitled to it.

That wasnt an opinion, that was advice.  Saying it is your choice to role play like that would technically make it your opinion, and that would make you entitled to that.

If there are more magickers about, then well I guess Zalanthas has more magickers, thats just the way it is.



See, you are correct here...More, does equal more.

What I meant, as I said shortly after, is more then the documentation might indicate...  another half quote, keep it up!

Documentation wasnt really updated in years - decades in game time.  So it is possible situations could have changed.



Until the documentation is updated, I wont presume to make assumptions about the documentation. I will go off of what the documentation says, not what i think it "Maybe, could possibly say if someone decided to change it, which they havent".

Well considering that there are quite a few things in the documention that are not correct at this moment, believing those doesnt make it true either.  The documentation says it is a guide for new and old players alike.  Guides arent set in stone, they give you the base knowledge that you are supposed to build upon yourself.

ignoring fact,


Please present some, I will try to ignore it, until you do though I fail to see that I could possibly ignore what you havent given.

Alright, since you seem to not be able to read, what I said, I will give you the facts that I already mentioned.
1. If there was a limit, most of the remaining magickers after a time, would be the long lived ones with high skills
2. Much of the documentation wasnt updated in years.
3. Most of the magickers you see about are long lived
4. You ignore half of what I say.
5. After a short time, when the limit cap is reached, then very few if any new magickers will be able to be created.

not caring about opinions,


Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. So you are correct here, I could care less about opinions. All opinions but my own, that is.

Ignoring what everyone else thinks, and barging on forwards, generally is not the greatest idea one could come up with.

and being unwilling to take advice.


Good advice I am more than willing to take, I just havent seen any.

That if you find there are too many magickers in your area, go to a different area?  That is pretty basic basic advice, and it would solve your concerns fairly nicely, but then again, the advice came from someone other then you, so it must be useless.



Anyway, it is much easier to respond when you use seperate blocks, so thats why I went back and went over it, since you took the time to actually make what you typed legible, many thanks for that

[X-D]

I've not read this entire thread, I would just like address one point, even if it is a derail of sorts.

This isnt the case though...They are just like every other mundane, sitting at the taverns in bulk, talking it up like friendly little butt-buddies...As such, it makes it extremely hard to RP being deathly afraid. Unless you want to constantly be deathly afraid, because they are constantly around, because there are a ton of the fuckers.

There is only one city where you are going to often see known mages in bulk in a tavern. And that city has an entire quarter of the city devoted to mages. Now staff and others have said MANY times now that it is a matter of perspective. So let us try and put a bit in here. There is a city of about 500,000 people, it has a merchants quarter, a noble quarter, a templar quarter a gemmed quarter and a commoners quarter. Now I'm going to assume that at least 300,000 are commoners and slaves.  That leaves 200,000 to split four ways. So, 50,000 gemmed or family of gemmed or 10% of the VNPC population. Point being, really, you have nobody to blame but yourself. If you wanted to play a PC who really does hate and fear mages, tremble at the thought etc etc...there is an entire city that is, for the most part, mage free. And a couple outposts where it is semi-rare to see a known mage.

BTW, You know how many times in the last ten years gemmed have tried to get a tavern in the gemmed quarter and it has never happened? Leads me to believe that gemmed being in the gaj is by staff design.

[Delstro]

I think we should not limit magick. We should make it more volatile, more extreme.
On the one hand, they should be extremely weak, on the other, extremely powerful. No inbetween.

[Jenred]

I've not read this entire thread, I would just like address one point, even if it is a derail of sorts.

This isnt the case though...They are just like every other mundane, sitting at the taverns in bulk, talking it up like friendly little butt-buddies...As such, it makes it extremely hard to RP being deathly afraid. Unless you want to constantly be deathly afraid, because they are constantly around, because there are a ton of the fuckers.

There is only one city where you are going to often see known mages in bulk in a tavern. And that city has an entire quarter of the city devoted to mages. Now staff and others have said MANY times now that it is a matter of perspective. So let us try and put a bit in here. There is a city of about 500,000 people, it has a merchants quarter, a noble quarter, a templar quarter a gemmed quarter and a commoners quarter. Now I'm going to assume that at least 300,000 are commoners and slaves.  That leaves 200,000 to split four ways. So, 50,000 gemmed or family of gemmed or 10% of the VNPC population. Point being, really, you have nobody to blame but yourself. If you wanted to play a PC who really does hate and fear mages, tremble at the thought etc etc...there is an entire city that is, for the most part, mage free. And a couple outposts where it is semi-rare to see a known mage.

BTW, You know how many times in the last ten years gemmed have tried to get a tavern in the gemmed quarter and it has never happened? Leads me to believe that gemmed being in the gaj is by staff design.

Quoted for truth.

One of the biggest problem I've noticed with players is that they associate PC populations with VNPC populations.
Case in point:
"Magick is said to be rare in the docs. I saw 5 magickers today." - Just because there are magicker PCs doesn't correlate to how many VNPCs there are.

Another point, mentioned by X-D but ignored by more "you replied to this" threads:
"Magick is rare" All but one city has either a lack of, or a fairly hidden magicker populace. X-D used population numbers of just Allanak in an example. Make that double, or triple, and the percentage of people with magickal ability in the world greatly decreases. Maybe not even 10%. But until exact population figures are revealed, we may not know. 

Anyways, revealed magickers in Luirs, the North, and certain tribal areas are not usually welcomed. In fact I've never seen them treated kindly except in tribal situations where magickers were allowed. Eitherway, there has never been a flagrant magick-presence in the North that I've noticed. Most there die quickly because of an intolerant population.

Allanak sanctions magickers, granting that they reveal themselves to the Templarate. In all the world, Allanak would seem like a beacon for magickers seeking safety and the ability to learn with others. Im not suprised at all that they flock there. But this in no way puts my character at ease around them, and I will continue to, and always have, displayed fear and disgust at their presence.

That you find RPing that way "hard" or "annoying" doesn't mean you should stop. Someone might say... I find it hard to continually RP while backstabbing... Im going to stop doing so. It doesn't work. Just because its hard to do, doesn't mean you should just develop your own take on it and play it how you want.

Lead by example, don't just alter the rules because they are hard for you.

[LoD]

Another point, mentioned by X-D but ignored by more "you replied to this" threads:
"Magick is rare" All but one city has either a lack of, or a fairly hidden magicker populace. X-D used population numbers of just Allanak in an example. Make that double, or triple, and the percentage of people with magickal ability in the world greatly decreases. Maybe not even 10%. But until exact population figures are revealed, we may not know. 

Anyways, revealed magickers in Luirs, the North, and certain tribal areas are not usually welcomed. In fact I've never seen them treated kindly except in tribal situations where magickers were allowed. Eitherway, there has never been a flagrant magick-presence in the North that I've noticed. Most there die quickly because of an intolerant population.

X-D caught onto the point I've been trying to make for about 3 years now in another thread, which was that while the number of magickers may not have changed within the game, the distribution of magickers has changed dramatically since the fall of Tuluk.  It's not that there are any more magickers roaming around the northlands now than prior to the Cataclysm.  The issue is that the distribution of these magickers are largely outside of the civilization centers instead of inside them.

When magickers were tolerated within both city-states, a great many of the magicker players could be found in either Allanak or Tuluk.  There were temples, houses, taverns, people with whom to RP, and a great many assets that were attractive to players.  However, when Tuluk was destroyed and magickers were outlawed from those lands, they flooded into the wilderness areas and where it used to be rare to see a rogue magicker in the tablelands, tribal PC's suddenly saw them at every turn.

This all comes back to having viable roles and homes for magickers.  It sounds backwards, but increasing the levels of tolerance for magickers in major civilizations and allowing them to hold meaningful roles besides predator or prey will actually decrease the perception of magick in the game.  It will dilute the current magicker player base by funneling them into several different organizations rather than focusing them all into the same location by being completely ostracized.

It would also begin to siphon some of the rogue magickers out of the wilderness and back into the civilization centers, which would decrease the perception of magick in the wild.

If only it could happen, I think the world would be a far better place.

-LoD

[Morrolan]

This all comes back to having viable roles and homes for magickers.  It sounds backwards, but increasing the levels of tolerance for magickers in major civilizations and allowing them to hold meaningful roles besides predator or prey will actually decrease the perception of magick in the game.  It will dilute the current magicker player base by funneling them into several different organizations rather than focusing them all into the same location by being completely ostracized.

I couldn't agree more.  I think system changes and social changes hand-in-hand would make for a better low-magick world.  More "hedge wizardry" and less "uberdeathmatchfighterwithmanaRPbyFrankDux" focus.  With an option for the latter but a much longer "row to hoe".

Morrolan

Edit:  And always, always, always make them live on the edge of the village.  Nothing says "scary and otherworldly" like making someone liminal.  And there's plenty of anthro evidence for exactly this kind of behavior.

[jhunter]

This all comes back to having viable roles and homes for magickers.  It sounds backwards, but increasing the levels of tolerance for magickers in major civilizations and allowing them to hold meaningful roles besides predator or prey will actually decrease the perception of magick in the game.  It will dilute the current magicker player base by funneling them into several different organizations rather than focusing them all into the same location by being completely ostracized.

This will also give them more to do with their time besides practicing their magick and decrease the belief that their progression is too fast. The reason that people believe they progress so much faster is that they end up spending more of their time doing it and they also try to stay out of the public eye until they reach a certain level of power to prevent from easily being slain.
It makes it appear as if they progress faster and easier than they really do.

[ale six]

X-D caught onto the point I've been trying to make for about 3 years now in another thread, which was that while the number of magickers may not have changed within the game, the distribution of magickers has changed dramatically since the fall of Tuluk.  It's not that there are any more magickers roaming around the northlands now than prior to the Cataclysm.  The issue is that the distribution of these magickers are largely outside of the civilization centers instead of inside them.

omg LoD posted I'm gonna.....

Oh wait, I disagree.

By and large, I think the number of "rogue" mages gets greatly exaggerated on the forums. It certainly feels like there are many, many more gemmed mages than ungemmed rogues -- and the gemmed tend to live a lot longer.

Some of the mages seen in other places may in fact just be gemmed mages who are travelling. (I can see why people would make the mistakes, because it's hard to tell the difference unless you are (un)lucky enough to get up close.

Only staff can say for sure, but I'd bet big money that the gemmed population outweighs rogues by a long shot. This would mean the magickers are more distributed into civilization than we think -- or else they start there and then leave.

[Rahnevyn]

That's enough "you're replying to me!", thanks.

(deleted a bunch of extraneous replies that had nothing to do with the topic)

[Delstro]

Great post LOD. LOD brings up the point that one "rogue" magicker is more noticeable, more talked about, than a few gemmed, city bound mages. The rogues make a bigger splash than the gemmed "Tamed" ones.

If we give more city bound oppurtunities to the magickers, then I believe we will see less bored magickers that just want to go into the wilds to feel a rush.

[Riev]

I know that personally, when I've had a gemmer, there wasn't -really- that much to do inside the city. You aren't allowed to cast outside of the elementalists quarter, heck not even outside your own temple. You can't cast aggro spells in a temple (Went to jail for that once, on a spell that -really- just makes a lot of noise), and even when I was -sorta- part of the Council of Mages, I asked what they did and it was like "Oh, we go out, looking for artifacts sometimes. Sometimes the templars take us out on adventures, but thats pretty rare. We usually just sit around and talk."

Weeeeee.

[Jingo]

A while back I suggested that one solution might be to give mundanes a few possible advantages over mages. Magick resistence potions and talismans etc. Nobody seemed to really like the idea but it is still an option.

[Forest Junkie]

A while back I suggested that one solution might be to give mundanes a few possible advantages over mages. Magick resistence potions and talismans etc. Nobody seemed to really like the idea but it is still an option.

No thanks.

[spawnloser]

Deleted. This was not a debate thread, I will not see it become one.

You already did.  Seriously, if you ask people how they think magickers should be limited and they believe that magickers shouldn't have more added restrictions/penalties, they'll say so.  You can't make them not.  Repeating the same thing again and again about how you're the boss of this thread so do what you say won't work.