What is your problem with magickers/magick?

[Qzzrbl]

I thought just hit me, regarding claims of spam-casting to godlike powarz.

Why don't we just take out the 'Nil' for magick reach? Make magickers have to get their skills up like everybody else.

Before jumping me with, "IC INFO! GTFO!", descriptions of 'Nil' and 'Un' are under "Magick Reach" in the docs.

[Tisiphone]

Why don't we just take out the 'Nil' for magick reach? Make magickers have to get their skills up like everybody else.

There are valid IC uses for 'nil' other than spam-casting, and I believe it reflects some of the philosophy behind magick in Armageddon.

Before jumping me with, "IC INFO! GTFO!", descriptions of 'Nil' and 'Un' are under "Magick Reach" in the docs.

Do other posters the favour of neither portraying them in a slanderous light nor assuming they are stupid.

[Qzzrbl]

Do other posters the favour of neither portraying them in a slanderous light nor assuming they are stupid.

And please do me the favor of not assuming I'm assuming anyone here is stupid. 

There is a slight possibility that some people on the GDB don't always check the docs before calling "IC info" on something. 

[Cutthroat]

I mentioned Nil in my first reply to this thread, which in on the first page. If it is indeed reflective of some of the philosophy behind magick in Armageddon, then maybe it should be put up for consideration to be phased out for Arm2, or to limit skill gains using 'nil' when casting (I have no clue if this is already done, I wouldn't be surprised if it is).

That is to say... if magickers really -are- a serious problem, and we as players are not blowing everything out of proportion, then this should be done. If it's not a problem, don't fix it if it's not broken.

Just my two cents, I don't have any experience playing 'gickers, just going 100% from the docs.

[Synthesis]

I thought just hit me, regarding claims of spam-casting to godlike powarz.

Why don't we just take out the 'Nil' for magick reach? Make magickers have to get their skills up like everybody else.

Before jumping me with, "IC INFO! GTFO!", descriptions of 'Nil' and 'Un' are under "Magick Reach" in the docs.

I'm pretty sure that the 'nil' reach was implemented as the magickal equivalent of sparring sessions.  A lot of people are going on and on about how dangerous it is to train mundane combat skills...but sparring is pretty damn safe so long as neither you nor your training partner is a complete moron.  And hey, once you can mop the floor with the noob Runners coming in, chances are practicing your "other" mundane skills (whatever they may be) isn't anywhere near as dangerous as it would've been when you teleported in from the Hall of Kings.

If you took away the 'nil' reach, every magicker class built on offensive spell sets would have to what...go out and fireball scrabs to level up?  I fail to see how that's a solution, other than by the obvious fact that most would die stupid NPC deaths -long- before they ever managed to zorch a scrab to death.

The way the game is structured, removing the 'nil' cast would utterly cripple magickers, especially the offensive-based guilds.  It wouldn't be a limitation:  it would be a complete castration for newbie magickers.

The idea is preposterous, unless other steps were taken to compensate for the removal of the 'nil' reach.  There are a bunch of things I suppose you could do: a) give magickers combat skills, so they can actually whoop that scrab's ass the old-fashioned way after it shrugs off your completely ineffective level 1 fireball; b) equip the mage temples with the equivalent of magickal sparring dummies  ; c) increase the power and effectiveness of defensive spells, such that you can boost your "protect me Krath" spell up to max before you go out and try tossing fireballs, enabling you to at least survive your first few pathetic attempts at zorchery.

[Riev]

I kinda agree with Syn and having the equivalent of magick sparring dummies, though any spell that would really affect an area of things might be a bit more.... difficult. If that fireball is a delayed blast fireball and someone comes walking in.. well. Poof.


OR, you know, you could practice fireball at low level with your friends.

ScaryGuy1: Ok, dude. Stand there, and put this target on your chest.
SG2: I don't like this idea, man.
SG1: No dude, its cool. Now, watch this!
*SG1 starts waving his hands around, launching a fireball up SG2's punk-ass*
SG2: Well, that burned a bit, you jerk!
SG1: Yeah, but I -totally- branched into Rain of Fireballs. Now, here's another target.....

[jhunter]

Alot of right-on-the-'sids stuff.

I was about to post the same when I read your post. Taking away "nil" without doing something to give them a way to practice offensive magick would be extremely crippling to mages ever learning to use them. I doubt anyone would get anywhere in the use of offensive magick without it.

[Mood]

Alot of right-on-the-'sids stuff.

I was about to post the same when I read your post. Taking away "nil" without doing something to give them a way to practice offensive magick would be extremely crippling to mages ever learning to use them. I doubt anyone would get anywhere in the use of offensive magick without it.

[Riev]

Sigh... and Mood with the ever appropriate "QFT" without even a QFT. Dick.


But still, Don't take away Nil. Instead, here is my proposed solution.

Make Nil, when using an offensive spell, LOOK just like a normal one. If you nil a fireball, show everyone that you just LAUNCHED one, but it had no effect, like a ghost fireball. I don't know if it does this currently or not (And if I did, probably is inappropriate to say) but at least then, magickers would be some SCARY shit even in cities (Since there was no aggressive cast, there would be no crim-report, just a lot of really scared citizens, and maybe a -really- annoyed Templar knocking at your door)


If nil worked like that, I think it could actually add to the roleplay of spamcasting. Sure, you're not doing anything, and expending Mana, but at least other people get some RP out of it, right?

[Synthesis]

Uh, law enforcement reactions to different casting scenarios could easily be considered IC info, man.

[Cutthroat]

Make Nil, when using an offensive spell, LOOK just like a normal one. If you nil a fireball, show everyone that you just LAUNCHED one, but it had no effect, like a ghost fireball.

Now that would be pretty nice if that's not what it does already.

[Riev]

Uh, law enforcement reactions to different casting scenarios could easily be considered IC info, man.

Uh, what? I'm just saying it would be cool if it actually worked like that. Maybe a drovian like, making a bar really dark would be sort of annoying, and people would be inconvenienced... but if you do a mock fireball situation, its not so much Crim-Coded, as -someone- is going to tell a Templar about it. Since nobody died or anything, maybe they don't get killed, but the Templar REALLY makes them suffer. Or, two magickers are running around the city, occasionally throwing ghost fireballs at each other. The populace is scared, but nothing gets damaged.


Even outside the city, you could stand up, and cast something at someone, and they see like, The Blue Genie from Aladdin come in and wink at them. They don't know if something happened or NOT (Except OOCly they might have an idea), so the character starts freaking out, thinking they're cursed and getting all scared, but you really did nothing to them.

Maybe its just a pipe-dream.

[Xio]

I love the concept of magickers and magick. When I first read the files about it when I was joining arm, I had to change my pants, and it was one main reason I joined up. (other than a certain friend recruiting me with enticing tales of the extensive crafting system)

I've played magickers very limitedly, and personally don't really enjoy them that much. In the sense of code anyway. Only magicker char I've really enjoyed was my first, a rukkian. Was fun to RP with him, and the only actual combat encounter he got into, didn't require him to attempt any mundane techniques so it wasn't too bad, until he died.

The types of stuff I'd like to see magickers do aren't really supported by the code, and when I think about it, aren't really supported too much by the concept. The fact that they're called 'elementalists' in the guild list, it threw my initial interpretation of them off.

One think I've always wanted to at least witness was magickers actually working together in the sense of mixing their elements and pulling off some crazy stuff. Magickers traveling in a pack should either be weakened and need to work together to be effective, or be stronger and be able to pull off some simpy amazing feats (even by the standard of magickers), because of the fact that either there is less magickal energies available because of the number of people draining it, or because the number of people increases the potency of the natural magicks in the area, kinda like magick magnets.

[AmandaGreathouse]

And please do me the favor of not assuming I'm assuming anyone here is stupid. 

There is a slight possibility that some people on the GDB don't always check the docs before calling "IC info" on something. 

Too true, I can name several times during which people were told to 'find out IC' with relation to -syntax-, which is ridiculous.

Like my character knows that he has 1999999 hp. Synax is -not- IC.

*sorry for the mini-rant*

[Bast]

I know I have the unpopular opinion here but I'm going to share it anyway. Arm has the most interested and well done magick system I've EVER seen on a mud. I think a lot of the concepts and detail put in to the casting system is really awesome.  It has a lot of potential that I think goes to waste. I love playing magicker's as much as I love playing mundane's. .This is ONLY game I have ever played where magic or magick did not mesh well with the rest of game and I think that has a lot to with how its handled by everyone.

There are a few things I don't like about the system. First I don't think the planes make a whole lot of since. It seems to me like some of the elemental types were added later on without a lot of thought as to how the planes behind them actually work. For example Sul-krath has two opposing element's while others like Elkros have none or one. Their really should be a balance of elemental magick. I say this because in every other system I've ever looked at including ones used in our own world , like in wicca or the Japanese and Chinese systems, you always have sister element for each element type and an opposing element. I think balance is important.

Secondly magick while very much a part of the history of the mud has very little place in the mud itself. Mages generally live in isolation and spend most of their time digging around for components. When they do get involved in major plot lines all the mundane players start screaming their heads off because they feel like the magickers get all the staff attention and having played on both sides of this I don't think that's really true. In fact often times mage players are told they can't get involved with a plot line or the amount in which they wish to participate is limited due to their class.

Personally I'd like to see more of  a "masquerade" style approach to be taken with regards to magick.. Where commoners never see or really interact with mages at all unless something major is going down. Meanwhile behind closed doors you have your educated nobility and magickers working together on major stuff that shouldn't be public knowledge less it start riots in the streets. Sort of a game within the game. I say this for a couple of reasons. One at max your only gonna maybe have three or four noble pc's on at a time and maybe only four or five gemmed in any one place at any given time. Allowing these two groups to work together makes the game more interesting for them, allows for  more roleplay interaction for high karma players with these roles, and keeps bored mages from stirring up the commoners. It could also allow two groups (your nobles, higher up military and magickers on one hand and your lower ranking commoners on the other) to tackle the same plots at different angles without stepping all over each others toes.

I'd like to see a Noble look at a mage kinda like having a cool new hand bag. Even if your paranoid of magick having your own loyal super powerful magicker on staff would keep other nobles mages from spying on you or messing up your stuff. Even if the Nobility isn't opened about whether or not they have one on staff. I also think especially in places like Allanak the military would be all over having a few powerful casters on hand. In fact some of the best played Templar I have seen try to do that already. I think it would make sense that the High Lord himself might want to keep gemmed around if only to keep a better eye out on anyone that might try and rise up against him. There is also the obvious military advantages to consider as well. After all nothing says "Don't Feck with me" like an army of flying, fire ball hurling mages buffing the crap out of your land based troops. Also try to bare in mind that unless all Alanak's water comes from some mystical under ground river I have never heard of all the cities water is likely coming from the cities mages.

There is a lot of potential for improvement that could be made to make the game run a lot smoother where magick is concerned. That I think would make everyone happy. It's just something that needs to be worked at. I think you can successfully have magick in the game without ruining the core that is Arm. I just don't think we will ever see the changes in the current game with a new one being built.

What I do get sick of is people complaining about it all the time. Personally I just try to enjoy the game as is. If you don't like magickers avoid places where your going to run into them all the time. Don't hire them and make a good attempt to avoid all contact with them. This really shouldn't be that hard to do.

Anyway like it or not that's my two cents.   

[Lord of Charas]

Some stuff. . .

Good idea. Well thought out, but. . .

Hmm, yaa it's okay. I don't know rlly. One might think it's better idea to approach things like this with the mindset of the possibility; that perhaps this already -is- happening. You say so yourself that it's secret. And I've seen enough IG that would suggest that this might be so. Rly, I think what you say or suggest is already present at some lesser level, not a universal truth as you've proposed, but definately in there.

See. It's really just up to the nobles to take the incentive to hire. (It's all about personal ambition really.) And just as you say, much of it is secret. And then othertimes it isn't. . . (Have you played an Oashi Noble before ? This is the one great exception of this that I can think of where the barriers of secrecy are publicly and casually broken.)

I look at this, the stuff you say, as more a perception of what could be, or what probably already is. And you're right, nobles often use magickers, and the 'Nakki Militia go to war often with a few magickers backing them up. But it's not an everyday thing - it's magick and it's scary. . . ur not going to hire the magicker to do something menial for you are you ? Like clean the latrines ? They're killers. They make strange stuff happen. And trust me: You don't want to be around the latrines when the Strange Stuff happens. You'll bear scars. 

It's. . . like doing business with a witch doctor.

And besides. You don't rlly think that the Nobility and the Magickers should have a more -casual- relationship, do u Bast ?