No Housing!?!

[jcljules]

Ok.... I've been walking all around Allanak. And there is -no- housing. Not one apartment for rent. I've checked four apartment complexes, and I don't think there are any more. Everything is full. I would like to see some more housing built in Allanak, please? Thoughts?

[Tisiphone]

This is an IC issue.

[Lakota]

Believe me, I feel ya. In all fairness though, there are several complexes with multiple rooms in each.

The only advice I can offer is for you to hawk the CRAP out of them, check DAILY. You'll get lucky eventually and snag one - maybe even some loot too. 

[jcljules]

It just seems unrealistic for there to be NO apartments left in the entire city. There are plenty of apartment buildings and dwellings in room descriptions; why not turn them into real ones? I fail to see how House Nenyuk wouldn't build more complexes to take advantage of the demand... thats just basic economics. I think its more of an issue of the staff making more buildings than someone ICly deciding to build more.

And don't tell me that there's not enough room in Allanak; I see your point, but I see no reason why someone can't just turn a room-description apartment into a coded one. In game terms its the same number of people in the city as last year/whatever, its just that some vNPCs have turned into PCs. So shouldn't some vApartments turn into coded ones?

[Lakota]

Uhm, well...building new things can be time consuming. Not only do you have to write a description for the outside, entryway, as WELL as the hallways and rooms, but..well, you get the picture.

Staff is currently focusing on 2.0. Perhaps if we can start averaging 70-100 players a night, staff will look into expanding the amount of complexes in game.

I think the amount in game right now is pretty fair. Some people have more than one apartment in a city, for instance, and hog them. You can deal with this IC, or wait until they can't afford to pay rent on one and hop on it.

End point that Tis and I are making: you can solve your problem in an IC manner.

Good luck!

[jcljules]

Yeah, I understand that its time consuming, and I know the staff already has a lot on their plate. Its just a little frustrating, especially when I know a character who owns four different apartments. Thank you for the advice; I will continue to go out apartment hunting.

[Nyr]

I've seen a plethora of topics posted lately, and I think this is as good a place as any to offer these quick tips.
Before making a post on the General Discussion Board (except the OOC forum), here are some questions players can ask themselves:

1.  Is what I am about to ask something that I can feasibly find out in-character by either asking another character, researching, or doing it myself?
2.  Is what I am going to post about something that IS in-character information that I found out that I don't see anywhere else in documentation, helpfiles, or the like?
3.  If I use the advanced search tool to try to find information about this topic, do I see any other posts about it?

If the answer to any of the above questions is "yes," it would be best to reconsider what you are going to post.

With that said, the answer to your question IS a mix of IC and OOC. 

In-character, the available apartments are not available.  Nenyuk has all sorts of virtual real estate, virtual apartments, and the like. 
Only a very small fraction of these are made available to player characters.
Also, "basic economics" oftentimes will not apply to Zalanthas.  Every GMH is, for all intents and purposes, a monopoly.
There have been some suggestions here, and yes--this can actually be pursued entirely in-character.  It may be that you do not know where the actual apartments are at.

Out-of-character, staff is focusing more on Armageddon Reborn, but that does not mean that we are not focusing on Arm 1. 
In fact, the building moratorium on new things for Arm 1 has been lifted, and this has already been suggested by players in the Submissions Thread regarding that topic.
Its implementation will depend on a few other things that I won't discuss here.

[Lizzie]

Also the vacancies, and lack thereof, are temporary. Always. For every two characters who rent an apartment and live long enough to re-rent the same one, there are three who die before their rent is due. You're probably just catching it at that awkward moment between "rent is due", "BEEP!, and "Apartment 7: One room with a green door: available"

I know with absolute positive certainty that there have been two buildings *somewhere* in the world, that are almost always completely vacant, with multiple rooms for rent.

It's my guess, that if popularity shifts (as it usually does), and players who roll up new characters do so in that location, those vacancies will not be as prevalent, and the vacancies elsewhere will open up.

So - just kill everyone in Allanak and wait for their rents to be due. Then you'll have your pick!

[jcljules]

So - just kill everyone in Allanak and wait for their rents to be due. Then you'll have your pick!

This... this is the wisest advice I've ever received 

[Gimfalisette]

Jules, I'm starting to wonder if you ever pursue a topic of interest ICly -first-, rather than bringing it to the OOC boards right away. Note that I'm wondering this with gentle concern.

[jcljules]

I always pursue these topics ICly first. I checked six apartment buildings, asked a lot of characters about it--I always try for a RL day to find out about something ICly before I ask here, which is what I did.

Besides--this is, as Nyr said, a mix of OOC and IC. In the past I admit I've asked a lot of questions that don't belong on the OOC boards, but that was just as I was getting acclimated to the game. I've been asking far fewer Find Out IC questions; perhaps I shouldn't have asked that question about the seasoning on this board, but thats about all I can think of recently. But I will take note of what you said, and think about it in my future posts.

[staggerlee]

Actually I think Zalanthas is supposed to be in a state of perpetual housing crisis.  Most people in Nak don't have homes.
Now as much as I love affordable pc housing, wouldn't it be cool if the less the apartments remained empty the higher the rent went in all of them?

I always pursue these topics ICly first. I checked six apartment buildings, asked a lot of characters about it--I always try for a RL day to find out about something ICly before I ask here, which is what I did.

Besides--this is, as Nyr said, a mix of OOC and IC. In the past I admit I've asked a lot of questions that don't belong on the OOC boards, but that was just as I was getting acclimated to the game. I've been asking far fewer Find Out IC questions; perhaps I shouldn't have asked that question about the seasoning on this board, but thats about all I can think of recently. But I will take note of what you said, and think about it in my future posts.

I think the point there is that just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it isn't intentionally so.  Similarly, don't assume the answers will come quick and easy.
The staff are generally aware of what's going on in the game, and most things like availability of housing are intentional.

[jcljules]

If that were the case, I would gladly have an apartment. I would rather see three apartments with ridiculous pricetags than none, and everyone else renting for a normal price.

[Rahnevyn]

Asking about the possibility of more apartments being built in Allanak due to OOC overcrowding is a valid question, I think.

Unfortunately, it is not trivial to just plonk down new apartment buildings, as other people have said. Even if we weren't focusing on 2.0 (in fact there are many staff who are staying focused solely on the current game), we'd need to consider carefully before adding new apartments.

Topics we could discuss:
- Could we address this issue by making some housing in Allanak more expensive in order to reduce demand?

- In the context of a crowded city where space is limited, do you as players feel there should be an apartment in the city for every PC who wants one?

- What do you feel about limits on the number of apartments PCs can rent in one city?

- Instead of more coded apartments, what do you feel about unsecure multi-room communal dwellings that could be shared by many PCs/NPCs?

[Lizzie]

I'd rather see more of a coded enforcement of OOCly-unfair apartment-hogging. The "policies" on apartments is such that we players are asked to not rent more than one apartment in each city. ICly, there are ways around it...which can be more or less justified (it's a flimsy justification but it's strictly an IC justification, heh.) But OOCly, there is nothing preventing anyone from having one apartment in each building in each city. It -is- impossible to rent more than one in the same building..

I'd like to see that coded restriction expanded - perhaps link each building, no matter what zone they're in, by a "city flag?" So that if the building is flagged as being in Allanak, then the code will acknowledge you as a Nenyuk tenant in that city, and not allow you to rent anywhere else in that city.

On the other hand..ICly, it makes sense that a tenant might be a guest in one building, and the actual renter in another building.

However, once that tenant dies, the code allows you to continue being a guest..and a tenant is not allowed to pass off his "ownership" to someone else. Like, if the tenant moves to another city and wants his best pal to keep the apartment - and his best pal needs the ability to invite guests of his own. Which - a guest is not codedly allowed to do. So really, a guest could be the "only" tenant of an apartment, and still NEED another apartment because he's not allowed to invite guests to the first one, since he's still technically a guest. Even though his host has been dead for a game-year. As long as he keeps paying rent, he's still a guest, and still can't invite anyone else. It's really a kind of mess how things are right now.

I think once someone grabs all the strands of this web and sorts them out so they all fit properly, it won't even be an issue anymore.

[jcljules]

- Could we address this issue by making some housing in Allanak more expensive in order to reduce demand?

Yes.

- In the context of a crowded city where space is limited, do you as players feel there should be an apartment in the city for every PC who wants one?

No, but the expense should be the limiting factor; not the number of apartments. That said, I would like to see more cheap/hole-in-the-ground apartments with very very easy to pick locks. So more people should have apartments, they should just be worse apartments.

- What do you feel about limits on the number of apartments PCs can rent in one city?

I agree with Lizzie; one per city. Though maybe there should be some way to bypass this... like a license of some kind.

- Instead of more coded apartments, what do you feel about unsecure multi-room communal dwellings that could be shared by many PCs/NPCs?

What do you mean by this? This makes me think about the current coded quit-safe hovels, etc; What would be the difference? Do you mean like you'd have to pay to use them, get your own room, nobody touches your stuff? If so, this seems like a good idea. I think everyone in Arm should have -somewhere- to live, even if its a communal hovel with no lock on the door.

[flurry]

What do you feel about limits on the number of apartments PCs can rent in one city?

This is one aspect of the issue I think should perhaps be looked at.

I have no idea how big of a problem that is, though. I recall one example of a character who maintained at least three apartments for an extended period of time.  As far as I could tell, it was mainly because she could, and had the expendable coins to do it.

I'm of two minds on this, really.  On one hand, there may be good IC reasons for doing this.  On the other hand, is it good for the game if 5-10% of one city's housing could be in the hands of one character?  On the OOC level, it seems pretty inconsiderate unless it's necessary.

The cost of doing it should make it unlikely in the first place, but that doesn't always seem to be so.

[Rahnevyn]

- Instead of more coded apartments, what do you feel about unsecure multi-room communal dwellings that could be shared by many PCs/NPCs?

What do you mean by this? This makes me think about the current coded quit-safe hovels, etc; What would be the difference? Do you mean like you'd have to pay to use them, get your own room, nobody touches your stuff? If so, this seems like a good idea. I think everyone in Arm should have -somewhere- to live, even if its a communal hovel with no lock on the door.

I essentially mean the coded quit-safe hovels, but expanded a bit more. Instead of a run down one room building, I envisioned something with perhaps a communal kitchen/living area, a few small rooms separated off with a tarp, and maybe a latrine. Or just a building with one large dormitory, sort of like the Gaj. They'd be free, crappy, and totally unsecure... the kind of housing most commoners actually live in.

[jcljules]

Yes, yes, yes. Then I wildly support your idea. Especially the latrines.

[Elgiva]

I find lack of apartments very realistic. I mean, if it's hard to find an apartment irl (and sometime it is), why it should not be hard in game?

[Tallulah]

The reason why a lot of PCs rent apartments is so that they can have a place to leave their stuff behind locked doors.  Public hovels won't fix the discussed issue IMO because anything anyone tries to leave there will walk away while they're gone.

[Furious George]

I think, if the code is in place via Nenyuk holding small items and whatever is left of the old mailbox system in the taverns from ages ago, why not adjust this in a few steps?

1.  Raise the initial cost of apartments.
2.  Set up some sort of shop that will utilize the banking code, but will instead store containers of items for pcs, giving them a ticket or something to reference in balance?  Maybe charge getting it out of storage by weight?  Who really knows?  Something along these lines could work though.  And would eliminate the need for renting an apartment just for storage.
3.  Bring Nenyuk back renting out places that aren't 'coded apartments'...catering to upscale individuals with huge loot.
4.  Make a plain, bare bones apartment building, but call each apartment a 'workshop'...have it a save room with a work table and a chest that are affixed to the ground.  Put a bunch of them in a multi level building at cheap cost.  Make them save rooms but not quit rooms.
5.  Add shanty hovels here and there. 

  Hopefully nothing too heavy handed on workload, but I think it would be a good thing.

[Gimfalisette]

- Could we address this issue by making some housing in Allanak more expensive in order to reduce demand?

This would not work. The very most expensive apartments in Allanak are the ones that are constantly rented. Until recently (the last few months), the ONLY vacancies ever to be found in the city were in the absolute worst, cheapest, crappiest, most insecure apartments. This apparently has changed, with an increase in the playerbase; demand has been pushed down to the worst apartments because PCs cannot rent the expensive apartments due to availability, not price.

Tuluk is similar, but has a smaller consistent playerbase, so the housing market is not as tight there.

- In the context of a crowded city where space is limited, do you as players feel there should be an apartment in the city for every PC who wants one?

I think there should be space for every PC to, minimally, be able to rent a place with 2 or 3 friends. Apartments are used for storing items (a change of clothing, extra weapons, furniture, cask of booze, stuff the PC is holding to sell to PCs or NPCs) as well as for private socializing. They're pretty vital to the RPed and coded life of many characters.

- What do you feel about limits on the number of apartments PCs can rent in one city?

I think this would be very fair.

- Instead of more coded apartments, what do you feel about unsecure multi-room communal dwellings that could be shared by many PCs/NPCs?

Not very useful to PCs for the things that apartments are actually used for.

[Lakota]

Agree 100% with Gimf -- what she said.

[Rahnevyn]

I'm interested in feedback - keep posting.

[Marauder Moe]

Just because people want something (particularly if it is an IC desire) doesn't mean that it should be given to them.  

Otherwise we might as well just have silks and steel swords rain from the sky.  Well... maybe not steel swords.  (Though that would be a very Armageddon thing to do if, say, a demon granted someone a wish and they asked for riches to appear out of thin air).


Anyway, my point is: it's worth considering that your average city commoner may not really be meant to own more than they can carry.

Also people should possibly share apartments more often (though I do know that this happens fairly frequently already).

[jcljules]

I'd also -really- like to see warehouses. Not quitsafe, but cheap, lockable rooms where merchants can store things. One room with a really lousy description (bugs, sweltering heat) to discourage people living there, and no furnishings. Easy to pick lock, too.

[Gimfalisette]

Anyway, my point is: it's worth considering that your average city commoner may not really be meant to own more than they can carry.

The average commoner is also not an aide to a noble or templar, or a Sergeant of the Kuraci Fist, or a Seeker of Poets' Circle, or the Guild's top assassin, or anything important or notable in the least. The "average commoner" argument has no relevance when PCs are not average. The fact that it's always the MOST expensive apartments that are rented, while the unsecure hovels are much more often not rented, points out the fact that PCs have (on average) far more money and status than the VNPC-NPC average.

And it's highly impractical to expect PCs to just stop wanting to own stuff. It's human nature to want to own stuff. We can argue and cajole until we're blue in the face, and PCs will still want things, and want a place to put them.

[Lizzie]

I also feel the "function" of apartments needs to be addressed. If someone just needs a place to store his personal stuff, and isn't planning on roleplaying any actual "life" in that dwelling, then he shouldn't be needing to rent a 3-room luxury suite. He should be able to find a moderately secure 1-room "closet" in the hallway of some building somewhere. Like a U-Stor-It where he can enter, take/put, leave, lock up as needed, and it would be "break-into-able" (unlike Nenyuk storage in the bank, which isn't break-into-able).

Also, no one should be renting rooms to spar, if those rooms are designated as living spaces. Because I know people do this, perhaps there should be a couple of "practice buildings" in each place that has rentable apartments. Sort of like covered fields, where you can rent a sparring weapon the -exact- same way as you rent a key to an apartment. Instead of apartments though, the rooms are described as covered outdoor areas, where sparring weapons can be used, where you can rent a dummy for a couple of hours, where IF you try backstab or any other "don't do this" stuff on the dummy you'll be evicted and blacklisted from renting again for a IC year or some other kind of thing like that. And of course if someone dies within that sparring area, since it's city property and still under city jurisdiction, you'll get crim-flagged.

People who want to spar, such as independent merc groups who don't have coded sparring areas and wouldn't logically hunt goudras to learn how to smack people around..should be able to. In an appropriate place. Not in an apartment.

People who just want to store things, and not actually RP living in an apartment, should be able to. In an appropriate storage area. Not an apartment.

People who need workshops to bang hammers down on rock or saw wood all day, or chisel stone, or fill the floor with sawdust or scraps of cloth and broken needles everywhere, or vats of nasty stinking tanning liquids, should be able to do so. In an appropriate workshop area. Not an apartment.

So - there should be multiple TYPES of rentable places. I think this would be a HUGE step in solving the problem.

[Dalmeth]

- Instead of more coded apartments, what do you feel about unsecure multi-room communal dwellings that could be shared by many PCs/NPCs?

Not very useful to PCs for the things that apartments are actually used for.

I dunno.  What if it wasn't just a hovel with an open door?  What if it was its own community?  Say, this hovel would accept five or six PCs and there'd be a guard out front.  The only people allowed in would be those who pay a meager monthly fee.  As for internal security, there'd be tenant NPCs who would watch anyone who wasn't a tenant and entered without perfect stealth, and if they saw them take anything, the person would be flagged as a criminal.

You could place items in here, but there would be risk.  You wouldn't store items too valuable to lose unless your other tenants were proven to be absolutely trustworthy.  If your character was deemed untrustworthy, you might find the other tenants trying to pressure you out of the dwelling.

I think it'd be fun.

[Marauder Moe]

The average commoner is also not an aide to a noble or templar, or a Sergeant of the Kuraci Fist, or a Seeker of Poets' Circle, or the Guild's top assassin, or anything important or notable in the least. The "average commoner" argument has no relevance when PCs are not average. The fact that it's always the MOST expensive apartments that are rented, while the unsecure hovels are much more often not rented, points out the fact that PCs have (on average) far more money and status than the VNPC-NPC average.

A fair point.  Perhaps, then the solution is not more public housing but more satisfying clan dwellings?  More secure personal storage and/or privacy?  More lax guest policies for lower-ranked employees?

And it's highly impractical to expect PCs to just stop wanting to own stuff. It's human nature to want to own stuff. We can argue and cajole until we're blue in the face, and PCs will still want things, and want a place to put them.

I don't expect people to stop wanting things.  I simply suggest that the players should realize that it's not necessarily a good thing for the game that all wants be satisfied.  I haven't personally decided yet whether this is one of those wants that makes the game better or not.

[Gimfalisette]

I don't expect people to stop wanting things.  I simply suggest that the players should realize that it's not necessarily a good thing for the game that all wants be satisfied.  I haven't personally decided yet whether this is one of those wants that makes the game better or not.

That's a good question. I'd ask whether or not the lack of available apartments turns people away from the game. Is this a barrier to newbies? Is it a discouraging factor to older players? If not having apartments for rent, of whatever kind, turns people away from the game...then I'd want more apartments or some other solution to the stuff-storage, private-RP issues.

What if it wasn't just a hovel with an open door?  What if it was its own community?  Say, this hovel would accept five or six PCs and there'd be a guard out front.  The only people allowed in would be those who pay a meager monthly fee.  As for internal security, there'd be tenant NPCs who would watch anyone who wasn't a tenant and entered without perfect stealth, and if they saw them take anything, the person would be flagged as a criminal.

You could place items in here, but there would be risk.  You wouldn't store items too valuable to lose unless your other tenants were proven to be absolutely trustworthy.  If your character was deemed untrustworthy, you might find the other tenants trying to pressure you out of the dwelling.

That's an interesting idea.

[brytta.leofa]

- Instead of more coded apartments, what do you feel about unsecure multi-room communal dwellings that could be shared by many PCs/NPCs?

Not very useful to PCs for the things that apartments are actually used for.

The problem isn't the communal-ness (which is kinda neat, IMO); it's the insecurity.  A communal dwelling with individual lockers would probably work fine for a lot of lower-crust people.


> rent with gimfalisette
The rugged, muscular man says, jerking a thumb towards the open doorway, in sirihish,
  "Right, then. Yeh can both use the red locker."
> enter hovel
> open blue.locker
You open a blue-painted agafari locker.
An adorable, tousle-headed child looks up at you.
An adorable, tousle-headed child says, lisping, in sirihish,
  "Hey mishter, you sloundn't be messhing with her shtuff."
> get coins blue.locker
You get a small pile of obsidian coins from a blue-painted agafari locker.
There were 1 coins.
You are now wanted!


Like Dalmeth's idea, but with a little more security scripted in.

[Fathi]

- Could we address this issue by making some housing in Allanak more expensive in order to reduce demand?

I have always thought that apartments should be more expensive, but not to reduce demand. If a skin of water costs ~60 coins and most basic weaponry/armour/clothing items cost between 70 and 150... I find it strange that there are apartments that are only 250 per rent cycle to rent. It just seems disproportionately low compared to the prices of other items ingame.

- In the context of a crowded city where space is limited, do you as players feel there should be an apartment in the city for every PC who wants one?

I feel that there are already enough apartments in the city for every PC who wants one. The issue is that these apartments are staying rented out for up to OOC weeks past the time these PCs die, so the appearance of vacancy isn't there when, in reality, I'm sure there are vacant units.

- What do you feel about limits on the number of apartments PCs can rent in one city?

Absolutely not. I feel like this would hurt a lot of PC interaction and PC business, namely of the sneaky variety. If I'm playing an assassin and I want to bring somebody to an apartment to kill them, my character might not love the idea of disemboweling people in the same apartment where she actually lives. Or if I'm playing a burglar or spice smuggler or what-have-you, I want the option (provided my character can afford it and decides that they want it) of being able to store my hot and/or illegal goods in an apartment other than the one I've got my character living in.

I don't think people renting multiple apartments is the reason why there are no vacancies.

- Instead of more coded apartments, what do you feel about unsecure multi-room communal dwellings that could be shared by many PCs/NPCs?

I, personally, would love to see some of these and I think they'd be great and atmospheric. However, the sad truth is I don't think many characters would use them.



I could be entirely wrong, but I honestly believe that the biggest problem when it comes to not being able to locate vacant apartments is that apartments stay rented out for up to 299 IC days after your character dies. That's a long time.

Back when the maximum amount of time you could rent for was 150 IC days (I believe it was 150, at least), I seemed to notice a lot more apartments being freed up. Granted, a lot of these were also probably players who'd topped up for 150 days, then been unable to play, and then lost their apartment due to not logging on, which sucks. I don't like the idea of bringing the limit back down to 150 for that reason.

But I'm not sure what would be a better solution. It's a tough issue.

[jcljules]

Hmmm... maybe the limit should be lowered, but there should be some way to make special provisions for when you're going to log out for a while. Like double rent.

[Archbaron]

- Instead of more coded apartments, what do you feel about unsecure multi-room communal dwellings that could be shared by many PCs/NPCs?

Not very useful to PCs for the things that apartments are actually used for.

The problem isn't the communal-ness (which is kinda neat, IMO); it's the insecurity.  A communal dwelling with individual lockers would probably work fine for a lot of lower-crust people.


> rent with gimfalisette
The rugged, muscular man says, jerking a thumb towards the open doorway, in sirihish,
  "Right, then. Yeh can both use the red locker."
> enter hovel
> open blue.locker
You open a blue-painted agafari locker.
An adorable, tousle-headed child looks up at you.
An adorable, tousle-headed child says, lisping, in sirihish,
  "Hey mishter, you sloundn't be messhing with her shtuff."
> get coins blue.locker
You get a small pile of obsidian coins from a blue-painted agafari locker.
There were 1 coins.
You are now wanted!


Like Dalmeth's idea, but with a little more security scripted in.

I like this.

[Salt Merchant]

This is an IC issue.

I disagree. Just look along Merchant's Road, for example, at how many empty buildings are around. If the demand is there, the space is available. Except that it hasn't been implemented.

[Salt Merchant]

Actually I think Zalanthas is supposed to be in a state of perpetual housing crisis.  Most people in Nak don't have homes.

And you get this from, where? From PCs having to stay in tavern common rooms when they start out?

I don't see mass numbers of homeless NPCs sleeping on the streets, do you?

[Salt Merchant]

I'd like to point out too to people that, if anything, housing should be in extreme supply around now. After all the deaths from the gith invasion, from privation due to tighter food supplies, and so on.

[jcljules]

This is an IC issue.

Ummm....

With that said, the answer to your question IS a mix of IC and OOC. 

Asking about the possibility of more apartments being built in Allanak due to OOC overcrowding is a valid question, I think.

I realize it is somewhat due to IC issues, but most of it is directly attributable to OOC overcrowding; the game just has more players than when the apartments were built; its not as if the cities have had huge population booms IG.

I'd like to point out too to people that, if anything, housing should be in extreme supply around now. After all the deaths from the gith invasion, from privation due to tighter food supplies, and so on.

And that!

[staggerlee]

Actually I think Zalanthas is supposed to be in a state of perpetual housing crisis.  Most people in Nak don't have homes.

And you get this from, where? From PCs having to stay in tavern common rooms when they start out?

I don't see mass numbers of homeless NPCs sleeping on the streets, do you?

There are beggars and poverty stricken NPCs all over the streets, room descriptions detailing teeming hoards of beggars, primitive shelters like tents or abandoned buildings used as squats.... yes, yes I do see masses of homeless in the streets of Nak. Read NPC descriptions and room descriptions, it's all there.

If that's not enough go through the help files. Here's some of the more obvious quotes:

Apartments     (General)

Many inhabitants of Zalanthas' major cities live in less than ideal conditions, and even a dirty room with no more than four walls and a ceiling can be considered a luxury.

Allanak is possibly the richest single civilization in the Known World, in total wealth. This prosperity is, however, very unevenly distributed across the population. The life of the average Allanaki citizen is one of strife--expensive and degenerate living conditions, coupled with a nearly omnipotent ruler who watches every move his subjects make.

I think you'll have a hard time making a case that Nak is a pleasant place where housing is readily available.  It's a struggle, most people can't even find work let alone a house.  I mean whether or not I think that player housing should be more available, there's no arguing that the game is intended to be harsh and that your average commoner is supposed to have a damn hard time finding a safe place to sleep at night.

[Salt Merchant]

There are beggars and poverty stricken NPCs all over the streets, room descriptions detailing teeming hoards of beggars, primitive shelters like tents or abandoned buildings used as squats.... yes, yes I do see masses of homeless in the streets of Nak. Read NPC descriptions and room descriptions, it's all there.

If that's not enough go through the help files. Here's some of the more obvious quotes:

Many inhabitants of Zalanthas' major cities live in less than ideal conditions, and even a dirty room with no more than four walls and a ceiling can be considered a luxury.

Allanak is possibly the richest single civilization in the Known World, in total wealth. This prosperity is, however, very unevenly distributed across the population. The life of the average Allanaki citizen is one of strife--expensive and degenerate living conditions, coupled with a nearly omnipotent ruler who watches every move his subjects make.

You claimed that most people do not have homes. Are there some homeless? Yes. But I've seen no evidence that most commoners live out on the streets.

[Barzalene]

- Could we address this issue by making some housing in Allanak more expensive in order to reduce demand?

You could. And if you wanted help writing room descriptions you'd have no trouble getting it.

- In the context of a crowded city where space is limited, do you as players feel there should be an apartment in the city for every PC who wants one?

I don't know. Maybe? On one hand, as I've said many times before I see a downside to every pc having their own apartment as it tends to take them out of public venues for longer periods of time. Makes it harder to eavesdrop as well. At least if people are plotting in backrooms, people might see them going in and out of back rooms.

On the other hand when I want an apartment, I want one. Maybe I can be special?

- What do you feel about limits on the number of apartments PCs can rent in one city?

Yes, but the limit should not be one, for rp reasons. And perhaps limits only on being a primary renter, as those who lead secret lives may have the need not to be exposed by the code as already having a dwelling place. You should be able to lie about it.

- Instead of more coded apartments, what do you feel about unsecure multi-room communal dwellings that could be shared by many PCs/NPCs?

Eh. But I love the storage idea, outlined by Furious George and quoted below:

I think, if the code is in place via Nenyuk holding small items and whatever is left of the old mailbox system in the taverns from ages ago, why not adjust this in a few steps?

1.  Raise the initial cost of apartments.
2.  Set up some sort of shop that will utilize the banking code, but will instead store containers of items for pcs, giving them a ticket or something to reference in balance?  Maybe charge getting it out of storage by weight?  Who really knows?  Something along these lines could work though.  And would eliminate the need for renting an apartment just for storage.
3.  Bring Nenyuk back renting out places that aren't 'coded apartments'...catering to upscale individuals with huge loot.
4.  Make a plain, bare bones apartment building, but call each apartment a 'workshop'...have it a save room with a work table and a chest that are affixed to the ground.  Put a bunch of them in a multi level building at cheap cost.  Make them save rooms but not quit rooms.
5.  Add shanty hovels here and there.

Smiley  Hopefully nothing too heavy handed on workload, but I think it would be a good thing.

[Voular]

The pricing is decent, I think, if not perfect. 250 per rent cycle is plenty and enough for a "normal" apartment avaliable to players. Some players can't spend 50 hours a week only, some just 5.. I think they should have a chance at some of the perks of this mud.

This game is about enjoyment, and sure it IS fun to play in an atompshere like Allanak for instance, but does not that have to OOC spill into the fact that you have to clear your week schedule to get a hold of an apartment. You know it can be done, but we as people have better things to do, even though perhaps the enjoyment from having an apartment is worth the effort to some.

It's not that "this is how it should be", you can get an apartment - but I don't think this should be an OOC competition about something IC. Even if you have 20k 'sid, you couldn't bribe yourself into an apartment building. (Not even by player interacment - one cannot give over an apartment or even let one go! Perhaps a Nenyuk PC can help with this, but I've never seen it happen.)

I just find the hassle of OOC avaliablity versus IG game vision silly, so change the game world - recent secret boom in housing.. There are 12 more room! >_>

[Sokotra]

The pricing is decent, I think, if not perfect. 250 per rent cycle is plenty and enough for a "normal" apartment avaliable to players. Some players can't spend 50 hours a week only, some just 5.. I think they should have a chance at some of the perks of this mud.

Very good point.. that's me.  It sucks to lose out or be looked down upon because you have limited time to play.

I wouldn't mind seeing more shacks and shanties.. and maybe some that you can acquire a key to.

[Myrdryn]

One of the problems with housing is when new characters enter the game, some of them go and rent an apartment.  A good percentage of these people die so the place is still rented for the time but the character may be dead.  It wouldn't be realistic to make the place available because the PC is dead.

So making more apartments wouldn't exactly solve this problem of no apartments being available (unless we make so many that it'd be crazy), because in most cases it would just mean that there would be more places that were unavailable.

[Myrdryn]

Hmmm... maybe the limit should be lowered, but there should be some way to make special provisions for when you're going to log out for a while. Like double rent.

You can rent an apartment for up to 300 days.  That's double what you originally begin renting for (only 150 days).  If you want to rent for even longer, you can wish up and arrange something.

[Myrdryn]

Zalanthas is supposed to be about struggle in a harsh world.  If there isn't enough of something (like housing), that sounds realistic to me.  It's like some posters have already said, just because you want something, doesn't mean it is good for the game.

There are places to rent.  Allanak has over 35 places that people can rent.  Is that not enough places?

People can also have roommates, maybe put something out on the rumor board that you're looking to co rent a place.
Or maybe you can sublet from someone.  I think it'd be cool if someone was renting one of the nicer places in town and they wanted to sublet it out to people for a profit.

[BlackMagic0]

Hmmm... maybe the limit should be lowered, but there should be some way to make special provisions for when you're going to log out for a while. Like double rent.

You can rent an apartment for up to 300 days.  That's double what you originally beginning renting for (only 150 days).  If you want to rent for even longer, you can wish up and arrange something.

Normal rent   - 9.375 real life days.
Max rent       - 18.75 real life days.

Thinking max rent would not be bad if you were not going be around a week or so.... I always just packed up my apartment if I couldn't play for awhile, and took everything with me and logged out somewhere else.. Never really had it taken from me.. Besides once.. Once I logged out in my apartment, and couldn't return for a week or so, and logged in to see someone had rented out my damn place and I was stuck there.. picking my nose.. So I stole their shit. lol

[Lizzie]

Myrdyrn's post got me thinking about the vacancy-when-dead issue.

Supposedly, Nenyuk's resources are vast..they know everyone who puts sids in the bank, they must have lots and lots of spies (and even less shady type of employees) who can send word when someone's dead (and thus, when it's safe for them to take all that money out of the customer's account and keep it for themselves). So maybe..a dead tenant could start a comparison/timer.

Rent due in 8 or more RL days (because player double-rented), Character dies: Timer for 5 days starts. In 5 RL days, Nenyuk has been informed that character is dead, apartment becomes available again.

Rent due in 4-7 RL days, character dies: Timer for 3 days starts. In 3 RL days, apartment becomes available.

Rent due in 1-3 days - no timer, it becomes available when the rent is due.

Vacancy can be overrided and reset if any of the following are true:
1) an IMM resets it
2) a Templar resets it
3) a *senior* member PC of the character's clan resets it (such as a noble, but not a noble's senior aide)
4) a Nenyuk PC resets it

Whoever resets it would have immediate access to clear it out or examine the evidence inside for IC purposes, and as soon as they leave the apartment and return to the hallway, the door would auto-close, auto-lock, and the key would be confiscated by a virtual Nenuk attendant who was virtually waiting politely in the hall (via an echo, force, and save of the PC with the key).

I know there have been several times in my own characters' lives (combined) that my PC had reason and/or need and/or authority from her own employer to check a dead person's apartment (like if the corpse is inside the building and the murderer in the process of escaping out the back way), and there was no way for anyone, even a templar, to do anything about it, and the IMMs with the authority to help, weren't available.

Definitely a couple of potentially awesome murderer-chases and detective stories completely ruined, all because we couldn't get past that damned doorman and into a locked apartment sooner than the time needed to find, hire, and train a local burglar.

[Lakota]

Blackmagic...you don't think that's a little, uh, twinkish?

I think it would have been better for you to wish up. I'm not trying to come down on you, I know that's tempting when you see loot before you, but realistically, you lost your apt and would have been on the street virtually while you were OOCly away from the game. I'm not trying to nag, that just seems a little cheesy.

[Sokotra]

Blackmagic...you don't think that's a little, uh, twinkish?

I think it would have been better for you to wish up. I'm not trying to come down on you, I know that's tempting when you see loot before you, but realistically, you lost your apt and would have been on the street virtually while you were OOCly away from the game. I'm not trying to nag, that just seems a little cheesy.

He emoted crawling in and out of a window to make up for it.

[Lakota]

With a capacious bed.

[flurry]

I know there have been several times in my own characters' lives (combined) that my PC had reason and/or need and/or authority from her own employer to check a dead person's apartment (like if the corpse is inside the building and the murderer in the process of escaping out the back way), and there was no way for anyone, even a templar, to do anything about it, and the IMMs with the authority to help, weren't available.

It's no guarantee to work right away, but you can always wish up for this. I've done this once or twice and successfully been able to have authority figures get access.

[Sokotra]

With a capacious bed.

He disassembled it first and stuck each piece out the window... then reassembled it in his new apartment.  What's wrong with that?  Or, wait, do they not have wal-mart beds in Zalanthas?  It would probably just fall apart or something anyway.

Back on topic, sorta, I would like to see more windows you can climb out of in apartments and stuff.  Maybe you can lock it (without a key) from the inside or something.  Basically there wouldn't be a lock, just a lever or something that holds the window shut and can't be unlocked/picked from the outside.  This would allow people to crawl out if they got locked in, but would not allow unsecure apartments where thieves can just crawl in open windows (the kind that are just a hole in the wall) all the time.  On the other hand, some of the cheaper apartments might have the hole-in-wall type windows or the kind that can just be opened and shut with no way of locking them.  Also, some more expensive estates and apartments could have windows that don't shut because they are high off the ground and wouldn't expect anyone to be able to climb that high or because they think nobody would dare steal from them.

[Nyr]

Hmmm... maybe the limit should be lowered, but there should be some way to make special provisions for when you're going to log out for a while. Like double rent.

You can rent an apartment for up to 300 days.  That's double what you originally beginning renting for (only 150 days).  If you want to rent for even longer, you can wish up and arrange something.

Normal rent   - 9.375 real life days.
Max rent       - 18.75 real life days.

Thinking max rent would not be bad if you were not going be around a week or so.... I always just packed up my apartment if I couldn't play for awhile, and took everything with me and logged out somewhere else.. Never really had it taken from me.. Besides once.. Once I logged out in my apartment, and couldn't return for a week or so, and logged in to see someone had rented out my damn place and I was stuck there.. picking my nose.. So I stole their shit. lol

Please don't do this.  Neither scenario is realistic.

[Kyviantre]

Myrdyrn's post got me thinking about the vacancy-when-dead issue.

Supposedly, Nenyuk's resources are vast..they know everyone who puts sids in the bank, they must have lots and lots of spies (and even less shady type of employees) who can send word when someone's dead (and thus, when it's safe for them to take all that money out of the customer's account and keep it for themselves). So maybe..a dead tenant could start a comparison/timer.

Rent due in 8 or more RL days (because player double-rented), Character dies: Timer for 5 days starts. In 5 RL days, Nenyuk has been informed that character is dead, apartment becomes available again.

Rent due in 4-7 RL days, character dies: Timer for 3 days starts. In 3 RL days, apartment becomes available.

Rent due in 1-3 days - no timer, it becomes available when the rent is due.

Urgh, no, don't do that!  What happens if your prime renter dies?  The timer starts, and 3/5 days later, all the other tennants still happily living there (family/workers/collegues/etc) suddenly get booted out because someone was too swift with snagging up the empty place before they could get hold of it (ie become prime renter).

I don't see why Nenyk would know if your character died alone out in the wastes.  I'm happy to wait the 255 days, if only for the benefits that those 255 days give when I'm the one -in- the apartment!

[Lizzie]

Then you should become the primary renter by default. You already can pay rent, indefinitely, have that apartment for as long as you pay the rent on it. Except you can't invite anyone else to share the rent with you. That makes no sense at all. You are STUCK with whatever roommates your dead host set up for that place, even though the host is dead and can't complain if you tell those roommates they are no longer welcome there. But codewise, you're stuck. Forever. For as long as those other room mates are alive, even if you have a fight with them, even if it turns out they're thieves - if you want that apartment, you have to live with them. All because the host is dead and can't uninvite anyone. The code should reset the default when there's more than one tenant in an apartment, and the primary tenant dies. Right now, you could be the -guest- of four different buildings, and not be allowed to invite anyone to share the rent in any of them. Even if the one you actually want to pay rent on and live in, has a dead primary renter. Not even if the primary renter is alive, and WANTS you to take over the apartment.

I think that needs to be changed.

[brytta.leofa]

What about just removing the distinction between primary and secondary renters?  Make everyone primary, so to speak.

[Lizzie]

Because if *I* rent an apartment, and allow you to share it with me, I am not giving you permission to invite your family to live with us too. You shouldn't have that authority, unless I give it to you, or unless I'm dead.

[Malken]

It doesn't matter. The truth is that now an insane number of old players and new players alike now know how to make big amount of money quickly. I see it all the time nowadays, the same trick is being used by a whole bunch of characters.

So if we have 80 players online a night and Allanak only has about 15 apartments for rent, and that most of these people can pay their rent with an hour of playtime a week, then I can see how this would create a HUGE bottleneck and why
these apartments are always rented out.

Tuluk doesn't have this problem right now, not because people can't afford to pay the rent, but because no one is playing in Tuluk much lately.

[Angela Christine]

The number of apartments you can own should be limited to 2.  There are plenty of good RP reasons why someone might need a second apartment, but more than 2 just seems greedy.   

There is also the practical reason that you may want to get into one of the nicer or more secure buildings, but they are full, so you take whatever is available.  You keep checking the building you really want, and if something opens up you need to grab it right away.  For everything to go smoothly you need to rent the new place and hold onto the old place for a couple days, while you move your stuff.




Possibilities for new buildings:

Another fairly secure (expensive) building for merchant types.  These are always fill up fast, because it is difficult to do any trading if your merchandise is limited to what you can carry in a backpack.  More secure housing could lead to fewer people constantly wearing gigantic backpacks.  Your room getting burgled once per IC year is a RP opportunity.  Your room getting totally cleaned out on an almost daily basis is an incentive to find a bigger backpack.


A warehouse/workshop type space in an industrial or commercial part of the city.  Each unit would be a single room, described as a work and storage area.  I'd go ahead and make it quit safe, because an average craftsman would totally be willing to drop a bedroll in his work area and sleep there.  For atmosphere you could have some environmental echos about how noisy it is, since the guy next door is pounding rocks all night (these might even be loud enough to wake a sleeping PC).  If you wanted to make it very clear that the space shouldn't be converted into an apartment, you could have a built in workbench that seats 1 or 2, and plenty of built in storage in the form of very roomy racks and shelves, but a fairly low limit on floor space -- so it is literally impossible to drop in a big bed, dresser, dining table, sofa, and all the bulky furniture PCs like to have in their apartments.  You may have enough room on your racks and shelves to store a room full of furniture, but you can't drop it and arrange it nicely on the floor, you only have enough floor space for a cot and a couple bags.


A shorter cycle space, such as a rooming house that rents rooms by the week.  (Well, more like 2 weeks, since it should probably be 24-72 RL hours and cost about 1/5 what a regular apartment costs to be useful.)  A private RP space that is not a long-term item storage space.  Perfect for visiting traders, mercenaries, tribals, and other travelers who only plan to be in town for a few days and don't need or want a long-term place.  Also handy for someone that has clan space, but occasionally wants to have a private meeting, or a tryst, or privately do something his employer would disapprove of, but doesn't want (or can't find) a permanent room.  With a shorter rent period, only very active and regular players could use it as a permanent room, so vacancies should be common even when the housing market is tight.

[Lizzie]

Well the rule is (according to the help file) that you can only be the primary renter of ONE apartment per city. Not per building, but per city. The code allows you to rent one apartment per building, either as a primary renter or a guest.

My only issues with apartments are based around the problems that occur when you are a guest, and your host dies, and you are not allowed to become the primary renter and therefore are prohibited from sharing the rent with someone else. OR, being stuck sharing it with a housemate not of your choosing, just because the primary renter is dead, and only the primary renter can "uninvite" someone from the list. You aren't even allowed to "uninvite" yourself, to free up your "quota" and allow you to be the primary renter in another apartment in that building. You are -required- to wait until the rent is due. And if that OTHER housemate pays the rent, you're stuck for another cycle.

[Malken]

Please keep to one apartment per character per city! If we have about 200+ characters right now playing in Allanak and the city only has 15 apartments for rent, we reaaaaally need more of them, even if they just appear out of nowhere..

Armageddon is becoming victim of its own growing popularity in oh so many sections of the game.

[ale six]

hey malken lets get a estate for house kawaii in tuluk then more ppl will play there! <3 <3

[Gimfalisette]

Let's get the numbers right: There are 36 or so apartments in Allanak, about 275 players of ARM on a weekly basis, and probably 1/3 of characters play in Allanak. That means there is probably about 1 apartment for every 2 PCs in Allanak. Assuming nobles, templars, and merchant family members are not renting apartments for themselves (as some have done in the past, and if they are now, perhaps they should rethink?), then people just need to find roommates.

No panicking.

[Tisiphone]

Though, in a positive light, I do see a possible thread merge in the future.

[Morrolan]

I like the idea of the squatter hovels.  No, not everyone would live there.  People would often aspire to leaving.

I really like this idea.

Morrolan

[Kyviantre]

A warehouse/workshop type space in an industrial or commercial part of the city.  Each unit would be a single room, described as a work and storage area.  I'd go ahead and make it quit safe, because an average craftsman would totally be willing to drop a bedroll in his work area and sleep there.  For atmosphere you could have some environmental echos about how noisy it is, since the guy next door is pounding rocks all night (these might even be loud enough to wake a sleeping PC).  If you wanted to make it very clear that the space shouldn't be converted into an apartment, you could have a built in workbench that seats 1 or 2, and plenty of built in storage in the form of very roomy racks and shelves, but a fairly low limit on floor space -- so it is literally impossible to drop in a big bed, dresser, dining table, sofa, and all the bulky furniture PCs like to have in their apartments.  You may have enough room on your racks and shelves to store a room full of furniture, but you can't drop it and arrange it nicely on the floor, you only have enough floor space for a cot and a couple bags.

I <3 this idea!  That one gets my vote!

[Lizzie]

What would be AWESOME is if trying to spar, in an indoor apartment that isn't -designated- as a sparring area, would result in random broken furniture.

You want to sleep in a bed tonight? Then stop tossing your housemate around the bedroom, or you're likely to bust it.

[Twilight]

I like the warehouse idea.  In fact, I had previously put something in the Submissions forum:

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,30913.25.html

I think I could do a halfway decent job of it, I did submit the original tenement in Nak.

I think the solution lies in creating higher weight capacity warehouses (like AC said, on how to do it), for crafting, raw materials, socializing, etc.  At the same time, lower the weight limit in rooms, such that in squalid ones you might be able to get a bedroll and a chest or two per room.  In the nicer ones, a bed, piece of furniture and a chest or two.

Additionally, and I think this is relevant both to Arm 1 as well as to Arm 2, you need stop magickally expanding space...well, unless it is real magick.  Ie, in addition to the weight limit, you need a total container space limit in save rooms.  So a room would have, for example, 200 stone limit and a 100 container limit.  The container limit would prevent someone from dropping 10 50 stone capacity chests weighing 10 stones so that they can store 500 stones worth of weight.  So, unless you really used magick (that'd be a neat spell), you couldn't have container space more than 100 in said room.

[Ammut]

I once (a year or two ago) owned an apartment in every complex in 'nak.  I dunno if that's considered too much,
but I used them IC as a hideout and for other reasons I won't go into here.  Afterwards, when
that guy died, I realized that I had also paid up every one of those apartments to the max amount
of days.

Sorry, the housing problem in 'nak is all my fault.  I think perhaps limiting how many apartments
one person can rent would also be a good thing.

edit: Well, almost all the complexes in 'nak.  Maybe not all of them.

[Bast]

I think it would cool if you could rent the houses in Allanak again. Maybe pay your rent and get your keys at the bank. There are a lot of cool houses in the city and its just unused space at this point.

[Archbaron]

I think it would cool if you could rent the houses in Allanak again. Maybe pay your rent and get your keys at the bank. There are a lot of cool houses in the city and its just unused space at this point.

This would be very nice.

[Yokunama]

Ok.... I've been walking all around Allanak. And there is -no- housing. Not one apartment for rent. I've checked four apartment complexes, and I don't think there are any more. Everything is full. I would like to see some more housing built in Allanak, please? Thoughts?

Solution: Move to Tuluk.