Armor absorption/damage ratio

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Re: Armor balancing

There is a separate issue regarding the damage absorption of heavy armor vs. it's weight that may or may not be addressed.

Let's talk about this. First off, all armor should absorb blows better than it does, to be honest. Damage should be negated or reduced by that armor. The numbers used to tell how much protection a piece of heavy armor has should probably be doubled in light of this newest change to encumberance.

For instance, in typical combat, we should see much more of this:

Code Select Expand

The blond man's slash is turned aside by your crystal-blue plate helm.
The blond man slashs you very hard on your arm. [And this should be a really bad blow, because no armor nagated it]
You barely graze the blond man on his head, but some of the impact is absorbed by his cap.
You stab the blond man on his legs, but your blow is turned aside by his pants.

Yes, armor would need to be repaired more, but ... why is that bad? Perhaps that skill to repair armor could be amped by such a change.

[Twilight]

It looks more like you want an "armor use" type skill that would work sort of like shield use, but using the damage absorption, material type, weight, etc of the armor.

Which would be cool, I suppose, except I already feel its hard enough to hit things as is.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

It looks more like you want an "armor use" type skill that would work sort of like shield use, but using the damage absorption, material type, weight, etc of the armor.

Which would be cool, I suppose, except I already feel its hard enough to hit things as is.

Not so much a skill, no. Just the code itself taking into account the armor you have. Armor should not be an all or nothing gig. It should be all, or nothing, or part-of. And yeh, I would like to see armor work more, but I would also like to see damage upped accordingly, so that blows that count really count. I should not have to hack an unarmored person six times to kill him.

[Panda]

I would think that different kinds of armor would absorb the different kinds of blows differently, too.  A heavy armor might very easily shed piercing blows, not as much slashing blows, and even less axe-type and crushing blows, for instance.

[flurry]

Not so much a skill, no. Just the code itself taking into account the armor you have. Armor should not be an all or nothing gig. It should be all, or nothing, or part-of.

Isn't it already?  Sure seems that way in my experience.

While I wouldn't mind of armor absorbed a little more than it does, I wouldn't want it to get to the point of encouraging combat stalemates we used to have.  And I don't think I'd want the code to keep reminding me that the armor absorbed some damage.

[Morgenes]

Not so much a skill, no. Just the code itself taking into account the armor you have. Armor should not be an all or nothing gig. It should be all, or nothing, or part-of.

Isn't it already?  Sure seems that way in my experience.

While I wouldn't mind of armor absorbed a little more than it does, I wouldn't want it to get to the point of encouraging combat stalemates we used to have.  And I don't think I'd want the code to keep reminding me that the armor absorbed some damage.

Armor always helps if you get hit in a location with armor.  Only if it completely blocks the blow will you get a notification that it did.

[Lakota]

I've gotten that note before, but it was mainly with a shield blocking a kick, which I believe can't be done anymore now.

Point being, it seems that armor doesn't aid the combatant as much as it could. It also seems like heavy armor of the silt horror variety adds little to no extra protection as opposed to heavily cured, dried leathers. 

[Morgenes]

I've gotten that note before, but it was mainly with a shield blocking a kick, which I believe can't be done anymore now.

I fixed this within the last few weeks, shields will block kicks.

Point being, it seems that armor doesn't aid the combatant as much as it could. It also seems like heavy armor of the silt horror variety adds little to no extra protection as opposed to heavily cured, dried leathers. 

It's all relative, believe me, we have established tables the prescribe how much damage absorption various pieces of armor should provide based on material, type of armor and location.

[jstorrie]

It seems that it doesn't, but it does, honestly. It may not seem like much if your tough leather brigandine is only deflecting, say, 30% of incoming damage, but that's the difference between having 100hp and 130hp, basically–which is quite a bit in a close fight. In a fight that isn't close, even the massive damage reduction of silt-plate won't matter if your attacks are all being parried and your opponent is landing grievous wounds to your neck...

[Maso]

The weight of armour shoulder be relative to it's SIZE not just it's type. A smaller, weaker person should not be further penalised by having to wear armour that is the same weight as the armour of the half-giant they are fighting against. Because it shouldn't be the same weight.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Armor always helps if you get hit in a location with armor.  Only if it completely blocks the blow will you get a notification that it did.

Alright, then. I am ... I guess I am just concerned about the new change. As long as heavy armor realistically absorbs or negates blows, then I suppose I have nothing more to say. I just hope it all balances out, because I don't want to have to be forced to wear light armor just to fight. I really want to see the quick versus the slow, the light versus the heavy, and the dodge blows versus the absorb blows. And I just didn't see that when I played a character in heavy armor.

And yeh, I would agree that the weight of armor needs to stand for the weight for the size of an average human, and move up and down from there as it is resized.

[a strange shadow]

the weight of armor needs to stand for the weight for the size of an average human, and move up and down from there as it is resized.

[Nyr]

There may need to be some tweaking here and there, and I don't mind looking into that some more myself.
Yes--armor should be weighted relative to its size, definitely.  (EDIT TO ADD:  It currently is not.)
I've had the chance to work over Salarr and really get into weapons and armor (plus working beside Myrdryn has given me some insight as well).

You may want to look at encumbrance in another way, too.
Encumbrance is a measure of how much you are encumbered by things.  Now, if you are more encumbered, you have more of a penalty than before.
If you are unable to wear heavy armor without being heavily encumbered, perhaps the answer should be sought in-character:  better quality armor.  Lighter armor.
What with the code changes done lately to combat, there is more freedom to adopt fighting styles with different advantages/disadvantages to them.

[Marauder Moe]

The weight of armour shoulder be relative to it's SIZE not just it's type. A smaller, weaker person should not be further penalised by having to wear armour that is the same weight as the armour of the half-giant they are fighting against. Because it shouldn't be the same weight.

Underline mine.

As I mentioned in the other thread, the problem is that in Armageddon, smaller people are not necessarily weaker.  If you make armor weight dependent on its size, you're going to give a coded advantage to small characters (who are still quite capable of possessing absolutely incredible strength).

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I would agree that larger sizes should have a bonus on strength, no effect on wisdom or endurance, and a penalty on agility, and visa vera, to balance sizes out.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I would agree that larger sizes should have a bonus on strength, no effect on wisdom or endurance, and a penalty on agility, and visa vera, to balance sizes out.

That isn't always the case, though, about physical strength.  Sometimes, some rather lean-looking fellows, toned but not bulky, can be extremely physically strong.  It isn't all about muscle mass: there's quite a bit more that goes into strength, too.

Now, I would argue that size should affect strength and agility in extremes--a very short, very light person probably can't be as strong as someone twice their size, who would have a hard time being quite as agile.  But when it comes to the difference between two fairly average people, one slightly larger than the other, or one lean, toned guy and another larger, more built guy (neither in an "extreme"), I'd rather not see too much of a coded difference.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

That's what the stat ordering system is for. This is what I am saying: if you prioritize your stats to be str, wis, agi, end, and roll up a real short guy, you should get a -1 to str, and +1 to agi. If you roll up a monster with those same stats, the opposite should apply. It does not make slim guys weak all the sudden - it just makes hulking girls a tad stronger.

[NoteworthyFellow]

That's what the stat ordering system is for. This is what I am saying: if you prioritize your stats to be str, wis, agi, end, and roll up a real short guy, you should get a -1 to str, and +1 to agi. If you roll up a monster with those same stats, the opposite should apply. It does not make slim guys weak all the sudden - it just makes hulking girls a tad stronger.

All right, I suppose I can agree with that, then.

[a strange shadow]

It really sucks for the people who started young and lived to maturity, though. The stats you get when rolling up an adult are not the stats you get when living through to adulthood.

[Morgenes]

FWIW, I've changed the tailor code to alter the weight of all items that are tailored in ratio to the new size.  See help size for a relative list of sizes.

[NoteworthyFellow]

It really sucks for the people who started young and lived to maturity, though. The stats you get when rolling up an adult are not the stats you get when living through to adulthood.

This is a derail, so I'll stop this here, but personally, I think that the coded bonuses/penalties for age should automatically happen as your character ages, regardless of what age he/she was when he/she was created.  If this already happens, well, color me surprised, but if it doesn't, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't.

Therefore, agility should steadily (but slowly) decrease with age, wisdom should steadily (but slowly) increase (because I think it's fair to assume you know more, barring some odd accident causing brain damage), and strength and endurance should increase to whatever the "peak" age is and then slowly decrease.

[staggerlee]

FWIW, I've changed the tailor code to alter the weight of all items that are tailored in ratio to the new size.  See help size for a relative list of sizes.

Holy shit that's awesome. Thanks for all the hard work and responses to our general feedback, and bitching/advice.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'd suggest a formula for the weighting of armor, Morg.

(APCH/PCH)+(APCW/PCW)x(ARMW)=weight

APCH is Average PC Height, APCW is Average PC Weight, PCH is PC Height, PCW is PC Weight, OARMW is original armor weight, and ARMW is armor weight.

So, a helm weighs 6 lbs for a average human, 5.5 feet tall and 7.5 ten-stones (I'm guessing here - I have not created a character in 2 years - I forget the real averages).

If the human is 6 feet tall and 9 ten-stones, he is .91 times taller than the average human, and is .83 times heavier. .91 and .83 equal 1.74. 1.74 times 6 stones equals 10.44, which can left as the fraction, or rounded down to 10, even. So, that helmet is 10 stones now. That's a hunk of weight, though, to be added to the armor, and is universal, so we could plug in a number dependent on the material used, if we wanted to.

(APCH/PCHxM)+(APCW/PCWxM)x(OARMW)+(OARMW)=ARMW

M = modifier
SM = Sandcloth modifier = .25
LM = Leather modifier = .50
CM = chitin modifier = .75
PM = plate-shell modifier = 1.0

With this formula, the same man would add ~2.5 stones to his 6-stone sandcloth helm, for a total of 8.5 stones. The same helm, made of chitin, would weigh ~14 stones for him.

For a smaller guy, weighing in at 6 ten-stones and standing 5 foot, the 6-stone sandcloth helm would weigh in at ... 9.5. Uhmm, my math is messed up here. Dammit. Apparently, the smaller you get, the heavier the armor would weigh. I wish I was a math wiz.

So, then, reverse the equations. Regardless, you see where I am going with this, yeh? It would take into account both aspects of you, and the armor type, when adding or subtracting weight.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Wow.

I am ... like, super late, aren't I?

Hahahaha.

[X-D]

Hey Morg, is that to apply only to items that get tailored after the addition or retro?

Also, What about items that load into the game at less then human size when they should not? You know how many staff loaded items or even crafted items start at halfling size or half-giant size?

Like if your PC got a full suite of plate armor last week and it was staff loaded at HG size, already got it tailored, Will this change affect that or do we need to request? wish up? Tailor again?

[Lakota]

FWIW, I've changed the tailor code to alter the weight of all items that are tailored in ratio to the new size.  See help size for a relative list of sizes.

Wow...just, wow. I never even thought about this, but now that you mention it, that makes perfect sense. Thanks a ton for this little change. It should definitely help.  

[flurry]

It really sucks for the people who started young and lived to maturity, though. The stats you get when rolling up an adult are not the stats you get when living through to adulthood.

This is a derail, so I'll stop this here, but personally, I think that the coded bonuses/penalties for age should automatically happen as your character ages, regardless of what age he/she was when he/she was created.  If this already happens, well, color me surprised, but if it doesn't, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't.

There was a point where the staff said these would happen automatically, but I don't think they do. I've never seen a stat budge and I haven't heard of it happening, either.

It sure seems like a bug. I would love to see this fixed.

[X-D]

I put in a request on the matter with a long lived PC and was told it was auto...But, If it was that PC should have seen a change when I put in the request. I've also never seen a change or heard of anybody else ever seeing a change.

[a strange shadow]

I've had two pcs live from "young", to "adult", to "mature" and I've never seen a stat change.

[Barzalene]

Thank you Morgenes. That is awesome.

[Good Gortok]

and so it came to pass that the 4th of july was the day that the average size of zalanthan human warriors went from 78 inches to 63 inches

I'm just kidding, great change, I think it's good that the combat-related code is finally getting some serious attention