Elves and Mounts

[Echo]

Ok, so we all know elves dont ride mounts because they are physically able to traverse the desert and are proud of that fact- but we have two diffrently coded elf races, who all operate under one big elven umbrella. Its not very fair. Because no matter how much you try a city elf will still lose just as much stamina in the desert as a human or dwarf or whathave you. Its like you only have one glove, and when you get karma you get given the second glove, but its given with a few conditions. Its wierd. I can play an elf in the city - but it is city locked too cumbersome for other players if you want to be anything else other then a pickpocket/burgular or assassin. No possiblity for an elven merchant house, elf bynners dont make any sid, and on the flip side you have desert elves who could keep up with a group - but shouldn't really because they should all be isolated away in their camps.

all elves find the riding of mounts (and usually, riding in wagons) to be an extremely shameful act

(Yes I know the helpfile goes on to mention elves wont ride in wagons, in the next sentence in fact -  but it doesn't strengthen my argument )

And this here is a simple problem solver. I'd like it to be possible for city elves to ride in wagons. Let the desert kin mock and insult the weaker city elves. no code changing, just a clear defining diffrence between the two types of elves. That way, we have tribal elves who consider themselves true elves who shun all modes of travel other then their own legs and the weaker breed of elf who lives in the cities, and while still too proud to ride mounts, accept the fact they have lost their ability to run long distance and ride in wagons.

[Doppelganger]

There is no -coded- restrictions about wagons, so I don't understand what stops -your- elves from riding them.

Let your elves to be despised by your own kin, let other players scorn you as a player. It's all about pride after all, and you don't seem to be picky about it.

Likewise, you may eat your own shit, just don't ask me to respect you.

[jstorrie]

Why does the prospect of an elven merchant group seem so unreasonable? Elves make fine crafters and even better hagglers.

[Echo]

Yes, yes yes. I could play a pridless elf, and yes a group of elf merchants are reasonable, dispite how much mounts would eat into their profits -  dont focus on my examples, please. Lets focus on my point.

And thats elves are proud of their ability to run, but city elves dont have this ability to run, so what is there to be so damn proud about?

[Doppelganger]

Yes, yes yes. I could play a pridless elf, and yes a group of elf merchants are reasonable, dispite how much mounts would eat into their profits -  dont focus on my examples, please. Lets focus on my point.

And thats elves are proud of their ability to run, but city elves dont have this ability to run, so what is there to be so damn proud about?

You did not give any examples where riding wagons would allow city-elves do anything they should, but can't. So, I assume your point is to give them an ability that would allow elf to act like a human with funky ears, which city-elves are not. Staff have done little to make city-elf's life as diverse as it should be, but 95% of players who create city-elf PCs with purpose of joining the Byn or merchant houses are indeed retards with no clue about racial roleplay, thus I don't see the need to make their life comfortable.

City-elves run faster than any wagon and longer than any human, but only in the areas they are supposed to run in. Their pride is well founded in code.

[BlackMagic0]

Yes, yes yes. I could play a pridless elf, and yes a group of elf merchants are reasonable, dispite how much mounts would eat into their profits -  dont focus on my examples, please. Lets focus on my point.

And thats elves are proud of their ability to run, but city elves dont have this ability to run, so what is there to be so damn proud about?

You did not give any examples where riding wagons would allow city-elves do anything they should, but can't. So, I assume your point is to give them an ability that would allow elf to act like a human with funky ears, which city-elves are not. Staff have done little to make city-elf's life as diverse as it should be, but 95% of players who create city-elf PCs with purpose of joining the Byn or merchant houses are indeed retards with no clue about racial roleplay, thus I don't see the need to make their life comfortable.

City-elves run faster than any wagon and longer than any human, but only in the areas they are supposed to run in. Their pride is well founded in code.

Hahaha, Well you made me laugh.  As you my friend, are quite mistaken on one part. The Byn is not that bad of a place for city elves, that wish to make some kind of living as a fighter. Or wish to work a bit as they have no other options. It is not -retarded- as you say.
Seeing as how the best roleplayed city-elf in this game to date, minus one aother elf who was just as great as this guy, was in the Byn for IC years. Was an amazing role player, and knew quite well how to handle celves. Either way. I disagree with your byn statement. Byn is not a bad place for elves, at all.

House, Eh, yes gotta agree with you. Most houses are racist bastards that will spit on a elf and not hire him.

[Marauder Moe]

And thats elves are proud of their ability to run, but city elves dont have this ability to run, so what is there to be so damn proud about?

What kind of elf, city or otherwise, is going to admit to himself that his blood is thinner than some other elves?  Admit that he's weaker than they are?  You're correct, this city-elf no-riding pride is absolutely irrational.  That doesn't mean we should get rid of it, though... especially not out of some desire to make city elves and desert elves balanced or fair.

[BlackMagic0]

And thats elves are proud of their ability to run, but city elves dont have this ability to run, so what is there to be so damn proud about?

What kind of elf, city or otherwise, is going to admit to himself that his blood is thinner than some other elves?  Admit that he's weaker than they are?  You're correct, this city-elf no-riding pride is absolutely irrational.  That doesn't mean we should get rid of it, though... especially not out of some desire to make city elves and desert elves balanced or fair.

What was that quote?

Eh.. "If you think someone is being unfair to you, you are most likely correct." or something. Lets use that quote here. Arm is not fair. Some people are better then other people. And they gotta deal with it, in their way. 

I love city elves, And don't figure its -that- bad you gotta change docs. Then again, my celves never -left- the cities.... haha..

[Doppelganger]

As you my friend, are quite mistaken on one part. The Byn is not that bad of a place for city elves, that wish to make some kind of living as a fighter. Or wish to work a bit as they have no other options. It is not -retarded- as you say.

I didn't mean that joining the Byn is unpractical, for the human with funky ears. But elf must have a tribe in elven sense of the word, at least some resemblance of it, at least desire to find one, instead of life-time job where he is fed and despised.

If I admitted that 10% of permanent elven Bynners were not retards, it would mean too huge of a sacrifice of truth on my side, but I am ready to compromise at 8%. Accept it, you won't find a better deal anywhere.

[BlackMagic0]

As you my friend, are quite mistaken on one part. The Byn is not that bad of a place for city elves, that wish to make some kind of living as a fighter. Or wish to work a bit as they have no other options. It is not -retarded- as you say.

I didn't mean that joining the Byn is unpractical, for the human with funky ears. But elf must have a tribe in elven sense of the word, at least some resemblance of it, at least desire to find one, instead of life-time job where he is fed and despised.

If I admitted that 10% of permanent elven Bynners were not retards, it would mean too huge of a sacrifice of truth on my side, but I am ready to compromise at 8%. Accept it, you won't find a better deal anywhere.

Again, you are wrong my friend.

City elves are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and have adapted to live by their wits. True to the nature of elves they also live by their quick fingers, and are usually avoided by the honest citizens of other races. Some city elves are members of tribes camped in some run- down space within its walls; others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all.

Quoted directly from the help files. City elves are -not- as tribal bent as desert elves. Some, many, do not give two fucking 'sid about a tribe. Most will run in small groups that they trust, after testing them. Other live lives completely alone without any ties to a tribe or group. And the last percent of elves are in some way a tribe within the walls.

Adding: The "two fucking 'sid" is not to be rude. Simply saying they don't give a hoot. 

[Tisiphone]

Oh, look, this thread again.

[Doppelganger]

City elves are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and have adapted to live by their wits. True to the nature of elves they also live by their quick fingers, and are usually avoided by the honest citizens of other races. Some city elves are members of tribes camped in some run- down space within its walls; others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all.

Quoted directly from the help files. City elves are -not- as tribal bent as desert elves. Some, many, do not give two fucking 'sid about a tribe. Most will run in small groups that they trust, after testing them. Other live lives completely alone without any ties to a tribe or group. And the last percent of elves are in some way a tribe within the walls.

Yep, that is why I said that resemblance or desire would do instead of actual tribe. The thing is that Byn or any other military organisation for that matter are worst choices to have any of above. Tribeless elf is lonely beyond anything human can imagine. Even dirtiest human beggar may find his minimum of a social interactions with their own kind. Tribeless elf has no own kind to live with.

Why do elves fare bad as slaves? Because they are generally disloyal and untrustworthy. Why are elves generally disloyal and untrustworthy? Not because they are amoral, but because their morals do not include lesser beings, effectively everyone outside their tribe.

With that in mind our elf joins the Byn, where lesser being of Sergeant daily and routinely stomps elven pride, establishing his authority. In response every normal elf should daily and routinely prove that he is smarter, faster, stronger or otherwise better than the lesser being. Either elf succeeds and gets kicked out of the Byn, or elf fails and so does his player. There is a thin twilight zone, however, and that's where those 8% of perfect elven Bynners live in.

[number13]

If you want a tribeless elf who rides kanks in the Byn, pick half-elf as your racial option. Problem solved.

[BlackMagic0]

Yep, that is why I said that resemblance or desire would do instead of actual tribe. The thing is that Byn or any other military organisation for that matter are worst choices to have any of above. Tribeless elf is lonely beyond anything human can imagine. Even dirtiest human beggar may find his minimum of a social interactions with their own kind. Tribeless elf has no own kind to live with.

Why do elves fare bad as slaves? Because they are generally disloyal and untrustworthy. Why are elves generally disloyal and untrustworthy? Not because they are amoral, but because their morals do not include lesser beings, effectively everyone outside their tribe.

With that in mind our elf joins the Byn, where lesser being of Sergeant daily and routinely stomps elven pride, establishing his authority. In response every normal elf should daily and routinely prove that he is smarter, faster, stronger or otherwise better than the lesser being. Either elf succeeds and gets kicked out of the Byn, or elf fails and so does his player. There is a thin twilight zone, however, and that's where those 8% of perfect elven Bynners live in.

They are not "lonely" if they do not give a damn hoot about a tribe, mate. Sorry. They are not some emo lonely I am tribeless fool.
And they live upon their wits. A smart elf would wait for the -right- moment to prove those things, and use his higher intelligences for something far more useful then boasting about like a fool.

I am sorry, I have to disagree with you on this.   If they could give a rats ass about a tribe, they would not be lonely, and if they wanted to become a bynner, and have it become their "tribe" as you say all elves have a need and such for one, even if they don't care, then he'll simply test his sarge and other bynners in his unit, repeatedly. If they pass his tests, they are trusted and would not be a who has bigger balls fight all day. As you say it should be.

Another quote from the documents:

Roleplaying: Elves highly distrust anyone who is not part of their immediate family, or of their tribe, who has not been tested severely to earn their trust. Elves will go to great lengths to contrive and execute these tests, even to the point of putting their own lives at risk.

[Ender]

Ok, so we all know elves dont ride mounts because they are physically able to traverse the desert and are proud of that fact- but we have two diffrently coded elf races, who all operate under one big elven umbrella. Its not very fair. Because no matter how much you try a city elf will still lose just as much stamina in the desert as a human or dwarf or whathave you. Its like you only have one glove, and when you get karma you get given the second glove, but its given with a few conditions. Its wierd. I can play an elf in the city - but it is city locked too cumbersome for other players if you want to be anything else other then a pickpocket/burgular or assassin. No possiblity for an elven merchant house, elf bynners dont make any sid, and on the flip side you have desert elves who could keep up with a group - but shouldn't really because they should all be isolated away in their camps.

I think I found the problem, yep. 

Armageddon isn't like other MUDs that are obsessed with fair and balanced play.  If everything had to be fair in Arm, magickers would be accepted everywhere, free muls wouldn't be hunted, dwarves wouldn't have to have a focus, Half-giants would be smart and just as strong as humans, and it would suck.

One of the things I really admire about Armageddon is that all of the races have an extreme amount of depth to them that clearly define them from one another.  Nothing is worse than going on a MUD to see fifty race options and all of them just minor stat differences with no actual depth.

Playing a city elf is going to mean you're going to have some difficulties in doing certain things.  It's finding ways to overcome these difficulties in a realistic IC manner that's the fun of Arm.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Armageddon isn't like other MUDs that are obsessed with fair and balanced play.  If everything had to be fair in Arm, magickers would be accepted everywhere, free muls wouldn't be hunted, dwarves wouldn't have to have a focus, Half-giants would be smart and just as strong as humans, and it would suck.

While I agree with your overall point (that balance isn't the point of an RPI MUD), there are balancing factors in those cases.  Magickers aren't accepted, but they have powers that mundanes can't even imagine.  Free muls are hunted and plagued with angst--but they're also absurdly strong and extremely deadly when provoked.  Half-giants are dumb, but very strong, which "balances" them against humans.  Dwarves, well, stronger than humans, but very single-minded.

Armageddon seems to go for a mixture of coded and RP attributes as far as "balance" goes, whereas a typical MUD or an MMORPG has to go with only coded advantages/disadvantages.  A mul, for example, has few coded disadvantages as compared to humans (I suppose they have to eat more, due to their ridiculous muscle density), but it's the societal reaction to them that keeps them in-check.

[Twilight]

The only thing that doesn't make sense is that elves are all supposedly one race.  Old documents (which I am sure are now gone) used to state outright that over time desert elf tribes would move into cities and that there were tribes that had both desert and city members.

Of course, when desert elfs went in, all that stuff disappeared.  That is one thing I am really, really looking forward to in Arm 2, lack of revisitism.

Anyways, maybe if you trained and trained and trained you could run like a desert elf.  Who knows.

[Marauder Moe]

What's revisitism?

[Only He Stands There]

Another word that means the same thing is "retconning," i.e. changing or nullifying the past to accommodate how you want things to go currently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retcon

[Marauder Moe]

Huh.  I've always thought that Arm could use more of that sometimes.  I think the desire for historic consistency has held back potential changes that would have been good for the game.

I also hope that in Arm 2, during the first few months or so, the staff would be willing to re-write parts of the setting that turn out to be problematic rather than just leave the game suffering or stretching other things ridiculously to compensate.

[Doppelganger]

They are not "lonely" if they do not give a damn hoot about a tribe, mate. Sorry. They are not some emo lonely I am tribeless fool.
And they live upon their wits. A smart elf would wait for the -right- moment to prove those things, and use his higher intelligences for something far more useful then boasting about like a fool.

I am sorry, I have to disagree with you on this.   If they could give a rats ass about a tribe, they would not be lonely, and if they wanted to become a bynner, and have it become their "tribe" as you say all elves have a need and such for one, even if they don't care, then he'll simply test his sarge and other bynners in his unit, repeatedly. If they pass his tests, they are trusted and would not be a who has bigger balls fight all day. As you say it should be.

The fact that tribless elf is lonely, and I insist he is, does not make him less picky about possible tribemates. Tests are done to evaluate -existing- relationships when there is a reason to assume that said relationships can be taken to another level of trust. No matter how desperate elf is, he would not test every passerby, neither would they lock themselves in a cell and get thrown in to pit just to evaluate Templar and lavrae as possible tribemates.

Elf might happen in vulnerable position as result of miscalculation or as a part of greater heist and then he would look for the right moment to escape or to strike, but he would never start personal affairs while kneeling. Elf is well able to shrug off insults and humilation as long as he knows that he will come as winner in the end, but purposeless tolerance to outsiders is not in elven nature.

Every test offers outisder an opportunity to sacrifice long-term relationship to gain immediately from abusing elf's temporary weakness. When elf starts off weak, an outsider has nothing to sacrifice yet and elf's weakness is just begging for abuse. I don't think that Byn sergeant who does not abuse his runners ever existed. Even if an elven Runner is stupid enough to test his Sergeant, it's going to end with Sergeant failing one and every test offered.

Even if a solid bond between an elf and another Bynner is somehow established, it is doomed to remain on personal level. Affairs inside Byn are not that of elven tribe, so chances of an elf accepting mercenary unit, not to mention the Company, as a tribe are almost unexistant.

[Änôñÿmöûs Bøb]

They are not "lonely" if they do not give a damn hoot about a tribe, mate. Sorry. They are not some emo lonely I am tribeless fool. And they live upon their wits. A smart elf would wait for the -right- moment to prove those things, and use his higher intelligences for something far more useful then boasting about like a fool.

QFT.

I would think only a desert elf would be real messed up if he wasn't in a tribe. And while city elves don't give a kank fart as to whether or not they're in a tribe, they certainly do tend to travel in packs with like-minded elves.

And c-elves aren't lonely when they're not in a tribe/gang. Sorry. I really have no idea where you get this thought from.

[BlackMagic0]

The fact that tribless elf is lonely, and I insist he is, does not make him less picky about possible tribemates. Tests are done to evaluate -existing- relationships when there is a reason to assume that said relationships can be taken to another level of trust. No matter how desperate elf is, he would not test every passerby, neither would they lock themselves in a cell and get thrown in to pit just to evaluate Templar and lavrae as possible tribemates.
 
Elf might happen in vulnerable position as result of miscalculation or as a part of greater heist and then he would look for the right moment to escape or to strike, but he would never start personal affairs while kneeling. Elf is well able to shrug off insults and humilation as long as he knows that he will come as winner in the end, but purposeless tolerance to outsiders is not in elven nature.
 
Every test offers outisder an opportunity to sacrifice long-term relationship to gain immediately from abusing elf's temporary weakness. When elf starts off weak, an outsider has nothing to sacrifice yet and elf's weakness is just begging for abuse. I don't think that Byn sergeant who does not abuse his runners ever existed. Even if an elven Runner is stupid enough to test his Sergeant, it's going to end with Sergeant failing one and every test offered.
 
Even if a solid bond between an elf and another Bynner is somehow established, it is doomed to remain on personal level. Affairs inside Byn are not that of elven tribe, so chances of an elf accepting mercenary unit, not to mention the Company, as a tribe are almost unexistant.

Going back and forth is not going to help anything as you are dead-set upon what you think.  I believe, with what documents on elves say, a good percent of city elves could give a hoot about a tribe and will never be within one -ever- in their lives. Their are acutally not that many city-elven tribes sitting inside either city, and they also do not have every elf in the tribes. They are quite small in fact (compared to the number of elves in the city). And there is a massive number of elves in the city states (where is that thread with the population stuff, eh I forget...). And I agree with you on one statement, they won't test every person that walks by them, and that was not what I was saying by my comment. I still whole-heartedly believe that a lot of city elves are loners, and not lonely.

Before an elf takes it upon themself to test everyone in sight, it should be kept in mind that an elf would only really go to the trouble of testing someone if they are going to be acting as a companion. A companion is someone that an elf may gain an advantage from being with.

So I must simply say, I believe you are quite mistaken on your points. The elf does not have to have a exisiting friendship or semi-friendship with someone to test them for his own need. The elf takes companions as to what is -useful- and gives him a gain in life, not to be buddy-buddy (all the time, maybe a buddy is his gain with testing this person, who knows!).
 
Also, I see being within the Byn as having some purpose to it. Even if your statements seem to think you believe the Byn is utterly pointless for any elf to step foot in, So you think they could not gain anything from it, not a single thing is possiblely gained? They can gain quite a bit, and with farther looking into the future and planning, perhaps more so then you think.
 
Either way, points aside we've both made it clear what our stands are. No real need to bat the tennis ball back and forth much longer. I prefer not to beat a dead horse with a stick, it tends to smell after a while.

[Doppelganger]

Okay, let's stop here, it just that you offered new twist in discussion, suggesting that elf should test some roundears to see if they would stop treating him as shit eventually, so I could not help but comment.

[BlackMagic0]

Okay, let's stop here, it just that you offered new twist in discussion, suggesting that elf should test some roundears to see if they would stop treating him as shit eventually, so I could not help but comment.

I never said that they should be testing many/some/few/moo roundears so they can not be harassed or hated, that was never the point of this conversation. Tis all started off your comment, of the byn being a terrible spot and 98% of the elves in the byn is bad roleplay in your eyes. And then went off into the comments of elves being lonely, and all Celves want a tribe deep down. So, I've no clue where you think I said they should stop being harassesd and test all these roundears for that buddy-buddy nature. I quite like being harrassed, tis sexy.


Let us all smile, and look at my new elven concept!

Code Select Expand

The teary-eye, lonely-looking elf says in 'Rinthi-accented Allundean
        "I can haz tribe?"

I'm just teasing, mate.