How to react to magick in various cities

[Ammut]

Hey all, it's been a while since I've had to deal with this since I'm usually a solo-RPer... so here's a question for ya:

Let's say I am out in the scrub, hunting/gathering or just traveling between two cities.  Less than a few rooms (or leagues, is that what I should call them IC?) away I see a magicker casting spells.  In what cities, if any would this be acceptable and how would the majority of mundanes respond to this?

[Qzzrbl]

I would imagine around Allanak, it would be reported that there is a rogue 'gicker out in the wastes. I'd imagine he'd be hunted down in quick order for not being gemmed.

I would imagine in Tuluk, he'd be hunted down for the mere fact that he's a mage.

Luirs and Red Storm, I'm not too sure.

[amish overlord]

I would imagine around Allanak, it would be reported that there is a rogue 'gicker out in the wastes. I'd imagine he'd be hunted down in quick order for not being gemmed.

I would imagine in Tuluk, he'd be hunted down for the mere fact that he's a mage.

Luirs and Red Storm, I'm not too sure.

Allanak would depend if the mage is gemmed or not. If they are gemmed some people might panic or hunt them, ungemmed templars may not react. Of course you might assume if just outside allanak that they are gemmed. May not want to get close enough to check.

Amish Overlord 

[Fathi]

how would the majority of mundanes respond to this?

I'd say the majority of mundanes would not stick around long enough to find out more.

No matter where your character was raised, the prevailing view is almost always that magick is a dangerous, unpredictable thing capable of causing quite a bit of damage.

Sure, a templar might wanna know if the mage you saw casting was gemmed or not. But would your character have the balls to get close enough to take a peek at their neck?

[Barzalene]

Absolute horror and outrage are probably the correct reactions. And running. Away. Fast.

[Yam]

Yeah. Fear.


You probably shouldn't go, "YARR! DIE MAGE!" and then type kill mage.

[manonfire]

Absolute horror and outrage are probably the correct reactions. And running. Away. Fast.

Oh, how I wish that were true.

[Barzalene]

How come no?

[Lakota]

Absolute horror and outrage are probably the correct reactions. And running. Away. Fast.

One can dream. 

[Shoka Windrunner]

How come no?

Because this is how the PLAYERS thought process goes:

Oh...he just casted...he might be practicing...I bet he's low on mana.
He's a mage...he isn't combat oriented at all.
I know...I'll run in...subdue...if that fails...bash and draw weapons.
He won't have a chance.

ORRRRR....

Oh look...I'll go say hello.

When in truth...really...you should be running away waving your arms in the air screaming bloody murder.

But no one plays it like that.


Thus...one could wish.


EDIT:  Okay...some people play it that way...I'm sure by the time I'm editing this someone will be saying "BUT I ALWAYS RUN"...
But the fact that anyone...who isn't someone who HUNTS magickers for a living...would risk it.  Not even usually in a group.

The reason...is it's like the guy with a gun and six bullets.  And there are 10 people trying to get him.

Who wants to go in and get killed?  Yeah...he can't shoot you all...but you only have a 40% chance that he won't shoot at you.

[Barzalene]

I promise to run away. Screaming. Ahhhhh!

[Only He Stands There]

The gun analogy's not quite accurate, since we, as earthlings, all know what guns do.

It's more akin to him having a giant glowing swirling black tentacle of energy that pulses red light.

I don't know what the fuck it does, but I sure as hell don't want to find out.

The problem is that a lot of players OOCly know or assume what mages ARE capable of, so rather than worrying "if I walk up to this magicker, will he make my genitals detonate as soon as I get within fifty cords of him?" they worry about "okay, does he have enough mana/is he branched enough to have Bigby's Crushing Hand?

[Shoka Windrunner]

The gun analogy's not quite accurate, since we, as earthlings, all know what guns do.

It's more akin to him having a giant glowing swirling black tentacle of energy that pulses red light.

I don't know what the fuck it does, but I sure as hell don't want to find out.

The problem is that a lot of players OOCly know or assume what mages ARE capable of, so rather than worrying "if I walk up to this magicker, will he make my genitals detonate as soon as I get within fifty cords of him?" they worry about "okay, does he have enough mana/is he branched enough to have Bigby's Crushing Hand?

QFMFT.

Exactly...I think Magickers should never run out of mana...they just can't cast spells as powerfully.
Maybe i'm nuts.
But I also think you should be able to crawl when out of stamina.

[Tisiphone]

Run screaming to the nearest PC templar, piss all over yourself, and beg him or her for the sweet Sun King's/Highlord's protection, all while crying that you're sorry you kicked your baby brother and you'll never do anything bad again.

[X-D]

Hey, my mages make a good living off the PCs who attack them because they think that mages are pushovers..

[evil_erdlu]

Hey, this is a perma-death MUD. Planning a personality of a character takes a day of mine. Improving that personality during the gameplay takes more and more days. Even if I used OOC information, I wouldn't risk it and say, "Hey, he's practising. Maybe now he has only 13/1468 mana. Let me try."

Also, even though being a newbie, with my mundane character I play so careful so that an agreessive NPC doesn't come nearby, I believe a mage with an experienced player behind would be much more careful and have always a card in his sleeve 'just in case'. And if I were the mage, the 'card' would be a battlefield control spell or a quick escape spell, not a spell of doom. He would stop the fight in a way and/or run away in some form after managing to cast a good glance into my character.

Later, when he's safe and you lost him and that means when he's the most prepared and you're the least prepared, he can harvest your organs.

It's weird that, in my opinion, using OOC information makes you stupider.

[Mood]

I hate mundane magicker hunting PCs.

[Furious George]

I hate mundane magicker hunting PCs.

That's okay, I hate mundane hunting magicker pcs.

[Mood]

I hate mundane magicker hunting PCs.

That's okay, I hate mundane hunting magicker pcs.

Yeah, because it makes sense for a mundane who, according to the docs, should be absolutely terrified of magick to approach an unaggressive magicker, just because they think, OOC, that they can take 'em.

[brytta.leofa]

I would think that, in the lesser settlements, a fella casting in an area actively patrolled by local law enforcement is worth mentioning to local law enforcement.

If your character is the sort who does mention stuff to local law enforcement.

[Furious George]

I hate mundane magicker hunting PCs.

That's okay, I hate mundane hunting magicker pcs.

Yeah, because it makes sense for a mundane who, according to the docs, should be absolutely terrified of magick to approach an unaggressive magicker, just because they think, OOC, that they can take 'em.

Which is absolutely NOT what I said.

[Mood]

I hate mundane magicker hunting PCs.

That's okay, I hate mundane hunting magicker pcs.

Yeah, because it makes sense for a mundane who, according to the docs, should be absolutely terrified of magick to approach an unaggressive magicker, just because they think, OOC, that they can take 'em.

Which is absolutely NOT what I said.

I thought you were defending that. I apologize.

[Furious George]

My thought on the topic:

Report it to the local law enforcement no matter what, as has been stated before.

I come across one in the sands I have two reactions:
OOC:  I shake my fist and bitch and moan that there's ANOTHER one.
IC:  I give them distance and try to remember whatever gear I might have seen, and then bitch and moan that there's another one.

[Is Friday]

What if you walk up to someone in the wastes and then get close enough to either see a gem or some cantrips/signs of magicking.

In my opinion, it would be fine to attack out of fear and just trying to drive this thing off, say if you were tired and couldn't run away, or whatever. There's a few reasons why someone would attack a magicker out in the wastes, in my opinion--but most of these are "I'm probably going to die but it's the only thing I can think of". Definitely avoided if possible or thought there's another way.

TELL ME WHAT I SHOULD DO.

[X-D]

I'm not trying to be mean with this reply, but well, that kind of thinking is rather silly IMO. Thats like saying it makes sense to attack somebody in templars robes or a mekillot in hopes of making it leave you alone. Sure, if you have simply no other choice. but in most cases you have other choices.

I cannot say what your PC -should- do. But I will say that your PC should really think it over. If your PC sees a gem on the guy and its in the wastes, your basicly looking at a hand grenade with the pin already pulled...are you sure you want to jiggle the hand holding it?

[Is Friday]

I suppose I agree.

Except for tribals.

[Only He Stands There]

I don't really see tribals as having much of a different reaction, either. They know damn well what magick can and can't do, perhaps better than most city people.

And by "can" I mean "destroy your entire tribe if you piss off the wrong magicker, so DON'T PISS OFF THE WRONG MAGICKER."


I sincerely don't think a tribal would go "OH GOD A MAGICKER KILL IT" if they heard an invisible voice talking to them or if they saw a guy in the distance wreathed in flame and shadow and malevolence. They'd go "OH GOD A MAGICKER I HOPE HE DIDN'T SEE ME OR MY SEIK TATTOOS OH FUCK WHAT IF I ENDANGER THE ENCAMPMENT OH GOD WHAT IF MY UNBORN DAUGHTER COMES OUT WITH TENTACLES OH FUCK MAYBE IT CAN READ MY MIND RIGHT NOW BARRIER RUN AWAY AND BARRIER FUCK FUCK FUCK."

[Archbaron]

OH GOD A MAGICKER I HOPE HE DIDN'T SEE ME OR MY SEIK TATTOOS OH FUCK WHAT IF I ENDANGER THE ENCAMPMENT OH GOD WHAT IF MY UNBORN DAUGHTER COMES OUT WITH TENTACLES OH FUCK MAYBE IT CAN READ MY MIND RIGHT NOW BARRIER RUN AWAY AND BARRIER FUCK FUCK FUCK."

If everyone reacted like this, magickers would be amazing. Sadly, they don't.

[musashi]

If everyone reacted like this, magickers would be amazing. Sadly, they don't.

And since no one else but you will be acting like that 9 times out of 10 ... it makes you feel like a drama queen. Well makes me feel like a drama queen anyway.

[X-D]

I've played PCs like that...man it was fun.

[Archbaron]

If everyone reacted like this, magickers would be amazing. Sadly, they don't.

And since no one else but you will be acting like that 9 times out of 10 ... it makes you feel like a drama queen. Well makes me feel like a drama queen anyway.

Exactly!

[LoD]

I'm afraid of tigers because I only see them at zoos.  They are rare and mysterious to me.  If I was to be confronted by a tiger somewhere in my everyday life such as on my way to work, in my office, in my back yard or home, I would probably run and cry like a little girl.

However, if I began to see tigers on my lawn every other day, they would cease to be rare and mysterious to me.  They would begin to become bothersome and threatening to me.  A threat that I have to deal with, because they are in my everyday life.  I am not seeking them out, they are appearing before me on a regular basis in all their tigery glory.

Such is often the case with magickers.

If people continue to make so many, play so many, and populate the mundane "everyday" spaces, you leave the players very little choice.

-LoD

[RogueGunslinger]

If people continue to make so many [magickers], play so many, and populate the mundane "everyday" spaces, you leave the players very little choice.

-LoD

[Rhyden]

LoD summed up my thoughts.

[Jenred]

There is definitely a difference between irrational terror, and rationalized fear.
And I think LoD summed it up pretty well.

Sorcerers.... terrifying. Magickers.... frightening.

[Barzalene]

If everyone reacted like this, magickers would be amazing. Sadly, they don't.

And since no one else but you will be acting like that 9 times out of 10 ... it makes you feel like a drama queen. Well makes me feel like a drama queen anyway.

Don't feel like a drama queen. Just do it.

[Zoltan]

If everyone reacted like this, magickers would be amazing. Sadly, they don't.

And since no one else but you will be acting like that 9 times out of 10 ... it makes you feel like a drama queen. Well makes me feel like a drama queen anyway.

Don't feel like a drama queen. Just do it.

Yeah, just do it. You're definitely not the only one. My mundane (and sometimes magicker) characters are almost always frightened or put ill at ease by the smallest display of magick, and they usually freak out. Who cares what others do?

[fourTwenty]

If the Magicker is in the distance: Run like absolute feck.
If he's kinda close: Run like absolute feck.
If you happen to walk up on one unexpectedly well.
ICly my PC dosen't know he has a set amount of hit-points before he dies. His reaction might be: quick, shove a sword up his ass before he turns me into a Jozhal. Thinking that killing him as fast as possible may be safer than turning tail and offering up my back as a nice target.

[Qzzrbl]

What I really don't like are people spewing, "But my magicker is a normal person, and would lead a normal life if magick was more accepted." I also don't like how most magickers look perfectly normal. MAKE MORE MUTANT MAGICKERS!

I wish people would understand that if you're a magicker... You're not a normal person. You're an abomination. Start acting like one. 

I've only heard of one or two magickers who lived up to the horribly mutated don't-look-at-me-I'll-eat-your-babies vision of finger-wigglers I had in mind before even starting to play.

[Zoltan]

What I really don't like are people spewing, "But my magicker is a normal person, and would lead a normal life if magick were more accepted." I also don't like how most magickers look perfectly normal. MAKE MORE MUTANT MAGICKERS!

I wish people would understand that if you're a magicker... You're not a normal person. You're an abomination. Start acting like one. 

I've only heard of one or two magickers who lived up to the horribly mutated don't-look-at-me-I'll-eat-your-babies vision of finger-wigglers I had in mind before even starting to play.

What do you mean, act like an abomination? Also, what's wrong with playing a magicker as a "normal" person? That's like saying "Oh, you're guild_assassin, so play your character like a blood-thirsty bad ass."

Honestly, I don't see where all this "all mages are friendly and want to save the world" crap came from. I just don't see it in my day-to-day play. On the flip side, it's true that I haven't seen an abundance of "kill crush destroy!" hideous 'gickers either... I just don't get these broad general statements about magickers being played poorly. I've seen it in a few threads now, and I'm not just rambling at you, Qzzrbl.

[Qzzrbl]

What I really don't like are people spewing, "But my magicker is a normal person, and would lead a normal life if magick were more accepted." I also don't like how most magickers look perfectly normal. MAKE MORE MUTANT MAGICKERS!

I wish people would understand that if you're a magicker... You're not a normal person. You're an abomination. Start acting like one. 

I've only heard of one or two magickers who lived up to the horribly mutated don't-look-at-me-I'll-eat-your-babies vision of finger-wigglers I had in mind before even starting to play.

What do you mean, act like an abomination? Also, what's wrong with playing a magicker as a "normal" person? That's like saying "Oh, you're guild_assassin, so play your character like a blood-thirsty bad ass."

Honestly, I don't see where all this "all mages are friendly and want to save the world" crap came from. I just don't see it in my day-to-day play. On the flip side, it's true that I haven't seen an abundance of "kill crush destroy!" hideous 'gickers either... I just don't get these broad general statements about magickers being played poorly. I've seen it in a few threads now, and I'm not just rambling at you, Qzzrbl.

There's a reason magickers are a karma/special-app guild.

People would be pissed if I played a halfling that melded in with human society and learned and lived by their ways, thusly going against every doc written about them.

Magickers aren't normal people. They have magick. Magick is bad. Since they know how to use magick, they too are bad.

[Zoltan]

That doesn't make sense to me. That's like saying pollution is bad, people who contribute to pollution are bad. So does that mean that every person who's driven a car is bad?

I'll grant you that according to the docs which we play by, magick is viewed by the majority of the populace as being powerful, unpredictable and dangerous. I agree that most people in Zalanthas would consider magick to be a bad thing. I don't think that there's anything in the docs that states that magick has soul and psyche corrupting abilities that afflicts all its users and turns them into monsters. Now, that's exactly the kind of thing most mundane PCs should believe, yeah. But saying that someone needs to play their 'gicker PC like a horribly mutated sociopath, without exception, isn't right.

[Qzzrbl]

That doesn't make sense to me. That's like saying pollution is bad, people who contribute to pollution are bad. So does that mean that every person who's driven a car is bad?

I'll grant you that according to the docs which we play by, magick is viewed by the majority of the populace as being powerful, unpredictable and dangerous. I agree that most people in Zalanthas would consider magick to be a bad thing. I don't think that there's anything in the docs that states that magick has soul and psyche corrupting abilities that afflicts all its users and turns them into monsters. Now, that's exactly the kind of thing most mundane PCs should believe, yeah. But saying that someone needs to play their 'gicker PC like a horribly mutated sociopath, without exception, isn't right.

First off, pollution can't incinerate you in a matter of seconds. Pollution is nothing compared to magick. And besides, pollution is brought on by EVERYBODY in the world. So much as using the bathroom contributes to our pollution and waste management problem. It's nearly impossible not to pollute.

Onto another point, I seriously doubt any Zalanthan would think, "Gee.... I sure hate the shit out of magick. But the people who bring it into this world ain't all that bad."
Magick is rare, powerful, and bad. The few people in Zalanthas that would dare wield such horrible powers, knowing that magick is bad and horrible, can't be thought of in a good light.

And I'm not saying that every magicker should play a horribly mutated sociopath. I said just make more of them. Because maybe people will start fearing magick like they should be. Magick should be viewed as a curse, not a gift.

[Barzalene]

Here is the thing, it's hard to balance it all
Ideally we should have fewer magickers. (It may not be a polite thing to say, but it's true.)
Ideally magickers should be scarier. (Again, blunt but true.)
People should be able to play the roles they like in a way that's fun for them, some people like magickers and don't want to be scary.
So, what happens is that we're encountering a problem of the good of the individual vs the good of the community. And I think there ought to be a willingness to compromise and cooperate.
Those who enjoy playing non-scary magickers could perhaps play fewer of them. They could also not act suprised and/or insulted when they are shunned and reacted to with fear. Their response shouldn't be to find people's heads or engage them in conversation to say, "I'm just a person, you shouldn't treat me so badly."
(you get the idea)
And we as a community should act scared even when we've had a couple of tigers on our lawn in as many days.

[Zoltan]

Alright, I get you then, Qzzrbl.

I would say though, that this whole "make magickers scarier" thing takes effort from both sides. It's hard to play a scary 'gicker if people won't let their characters be scared. I just don't like the feeling of having to make the "terrifying wiggler" stereotype to get a reaction out of anyone.

[Voular]

I've seen plenty of characters numb down from "ohmyshitgodit'saflyingpersonrun!" to "oh, just a silly gemmed, let's hop along". And it's solely a player fault, the settning gives a premise - but the players of magickers do not upkeep it.

[jhunter]

I'm afraid of tigers because I only see them at zoos.  They are rare and mysterious to me.  If I was to be confronted by a tiger somewhere in my everyday life such as on my way to work, in my office, in my back yard or home, I would probably run and cry like a little girl.

However, if I began to see tigers on my lawn every other day, they would cease to be rare and mysterious to me.  They would begin to become bothersome and threatening to me.  A threat that I have to deal with, because they are in my everyday life.  I am not seeking them out, they are appearing before me on a regular basis in all their tigery glory.

Such is often the case with magickers.

If people continue to make so many, play so many, and populate the mundane "everyday" spaces, you leave the players very little choice.

-LoD

You still aren't going to go out there by yourself with a sharp stick or a club and try to take care of the tiger yourself. Not unless you are severely unstable or have a death wish.

[fourTwenty]

I'm afraid of tigers because I only see them at zoos.  They are rare and mysterious to me.  If I was to be confronted by a tiger somewhere in my everyday life such as on my way to work, in my office, in my back yard or home, I would probably run and cry like a little girl.

However, if I began to see tigers on my lawn every other day, they would cease to be rare and mysterious to me.  They would begin to become bothersome and threatening to me.  A threat that I have to deal with, because they are in my everyday life.  I am not seeking them out, they are appearing before me on a regular basis in all their tigery glory.

Such is often the case with magickers.

If people continue to make so many, play so many, and populate the mundane "everyday" spaces, you leave the players very little choice.

-LoD

You still aren't going to go out there by yourself with a sharp stick or a club and try to take care of the tiger yourself. Not unless you are severely unstable or have a death wish.

Here kitty kitty.

[Fathi]

What I really don't like are people spewing, "But my magicker is a normal person, and would lead a normal life if magick were more accepted." I also don't like how most magickers look perfectly normal. MAKE MORE MUTANT MAGICKERS!

I wish people would understand that if you're a magicker... You're not a normal person. You're an abomination. Start acting like one. 

I've only heard of one or two magickers who lived up to the horribly mutated don't-look-at-me-I'll-eat-your-babies vision of finger-wigglers I had in mind before even starting to play.

What do you mean, act like an abomination? Also, what's wrong with playing a magicker as a "normal" person? That's like saying "Oh, you're guild_assassin, so play your character like a blood-thirsty bad ass."

Honestly, I don't see where all this "all mages are friendly and want to save the world" crap came from. I just don't see it in my day-to-day play. On the flip side, it's true that I haven't seen an abundance of "kill crush destroy!" hideous 'gickers either... I just don't get these broad general statements about magickers being played poorly. I've seen it in a few threads now, and I'm not just rambling at you, Qzzrbl.

There's a reason magickers are a karma/special-app guild.

People would be pissed if I played a halfling that melded in with human society and learned and lived by their ways, thusly going against every doc written about them.

Magickers aren't normal people. They have magick. Magick is bad. Since they know how to use magick, they too are bad.

This is a poor analogy. People would be pissed if you did that for a halfling because halflings have extensive racial and cultural documentation as well as an expectation placed upon their players by the rest of the tribe and the staffers that run it.

"Magicker" is not a race. Hell, "magicker" isn't even a guild. It's several different guilds. A magick-wielding character can come from -any- background in the game and there are tons of possible reactions that an up-until-then-normal person would have to suddenly discovering they've manifested magickal powers. Suddenly finding out you can cast magick is not going to erase the first 10-20 years of your PC's memory and personality.

I think that it's very reasonable to think a lot of people, upon discovering their powers, would attempt to still live normal lives and be normal people. Perhaps out of denial. Perhaps because they're afraid they'll get caught. Perhaps because they justify, internally, to themselves that magick isn't so bad because they don't want to see themselves as evil. Perhaps they live in one of the game's cultures that freely accepts magickers as normal members of the society.

The point is, saying that people should play their characters a certain way because of their guild choice, regardless of background and culture and personality and age and race and all the other variables... is pretty stupid.

I do agree that the majority of people from the two main city-states would share that view about magick--magick is bad, therefore magickers are bad, if I become a magicker I must have done something bad or maybe I'm just cursed.

However, saying that the people who don't play that way are playing wrong is making a very broad generalisation about a large group of completely unrelated characters based on the fact that they chose one of eight completely separate guilds for their character. Saying "all magickers should ____ because they're magickers" is more akin to saying "all assassins, warriors, and rangers should ____ because they all get piercing weapons."

[Lizzie]

Once upon a time, I was a newbie who dilligently read the docs and rolled up a character. I figured she wouldn't -hate- magickers, but definitely wouldn't ever knowingly befriend one either. She'd be vaguely ambivilent, on the side of cautious suspicion, and I'd RP it from there and see where it took me.

Well. She ends up -so- exposed to magickers on -such- a regular basis, that eventually (eventually meaning, over the course of several RL months), she just got used to them. Some of them made it easy for her to get used to. Others didn't. Some were genuinely pleasant and useful, others weren't. But the fact that they were magickers stopped bothering her, and she saw them more on an individual case-by-case thing than as a whole.

Another time, I played a magicker, who hated that she was a magicker, and was so resentful of it, that she decided she would use it against the whole world for making her be something she loathed. She got killed before I could branch anything useful

Another time, I played a character who had little exposure (to her knowledge) of magickers, and because she wasn't exposed to them regularly (knowingly) the fear of the unknown was as realistic to her as I think it should be.

The moral of the story, is that if you are regularly exposed to that which you fear, you will either go insane, or you will simply learn to live with whatever it is you used to fear, and stop fearing it. If people want magickers to BE fearsome, it isn't enough that they do mean terrible scary things. They have to do it covertly, rarely..their existence has to be a mystery to everyone else. Otherwise, they really do become "oh yeah, one of those. Whatever, let's go skeet-shooting."

[Dalmeth]

I've said it dozen times before, and I'll say it again.  Magick isn't scary.  It was my idea that the dilemma of being a magicker was  that you were essentially a normal person with something scary attached.  They aren't, though.  All you have to do is keep on the magicker's good side, and they'll never target you with a detrimental spell.  That degree of control, that lack of the unknown, is a serious flaw in seeing magickers as scary.

[ale six]

Yeah magickers just need a little more <3 guys, they're not bad, just misunderstood. -_-

[Salt Merchant]

I felt like going on a rant about the inanity of the player base complaining about a situation that it basically created for itself with its tendency to polarize roleplaying issues to extremes.

Instead, I'll just suggest that things aren't going to change in 1.Arm now.

If they were, I'd suggest that some dark tower be built out in the wastes, and all magicker characters start there, and that it be written into their documents that they resent and hate the world that rejected them and want to bring grief to those who drove them out. Then everyone would know what to do.

But it won't be built and nothing is going to change until 2.Arm. So just drop it.

[Rhyden]

There's two sides to mundanes attacking magickers close to cities.

First off, why is this mage practicing magick so near to the city? As has been said, it is illegal or frowned upon to cast around most city-states. Mages are tolerated around Allanak only when they bear the gem. Said mage is either stupid or plainly looking for trouble if they're casting so close to either city state or outpost. If they are gemmed and casting so close to the city, there is probably good reason.

On the other hand, if there was any mundane stupid/fearless/insane enough to actually attack any mage casting any magick so close to a city state, I think the consequences would formulate a plausible solution by itself. If said mage is weak and unable to defend themselves from said mundane, well that's shit luck. If they are a weak mage and casting so close to a city state, they're about as careless as any mundane who would attack them.

If said mage is powerful enough to overcome the careless mundane, that's just shit luck for the mundane. Maybe they shouldn't be attacking magickers so close to city states.

It's a gamble for both parties, which is why I usually haul ass from any magickers I see. 

[Mood]

It's hard to play a scary 'gicker if people won't let their characters be scared.

It's also hard when the Good Guys™ hunt your ass down and kill you for being mean, because they're more powerful than you. No, I'm not just talking about the Templarate.

[LoD]

You still aren't going to go out there by yourself with a sharp stick or a club and try to take care of the tiger yourself. Not unless you are severely unstable or have a death wish.

I wasn't making the point as a justification for mundanes attacking magickers out in the desert, but as an explanation as to why many mundanes will not exhibit the level of fear and terror you and others want to see exhibited by those players.  The mundane may not attack that magicker, but they are going to have to deal with them eventually -- because the magickers are representing an exception to the rule in being common and obvious rather than rare and mysterious.

This is not the fault of any one player, but a fault of the entire system.  And until that system is changed, the problem will persist.  Just don't expect the mundane population to adhere to their part of the bargain in playing fear and terror when the magicker population isn't upholding their part of the bargain in being rare and mysterious.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

-LoD

[Malken]

It was a simple question that requires a simple answer.

When in doubt, double R's. (Run & Report)

[X-D]

It's also hard when the Good Guys™ hunt your ass down and kill you for being mean, because they're more powerful than you. No, I'm not just talking about the Templarate.

QFT

Also, of late at least in one city I've been seeing mostly what I consider to be the right attitude to mages. Cept the gemmed. Most seem to treat them exactly the same. And I'm not saying that is all bad. But you should probly have your PC remember that the gem also means that the mage wearing it might be a templars personal lapdog of lightning.

[jhunter]

I still don't see the relationship between rarity and fear of something. Something dangerous=something dangerous, no matter how often or rarely you see it or come into contact with it. I would venture to argue that if you are seeing more of something dangerous it is more realistic to be -more- afraid and more careful, not less.
I think that people are using "rarity" as an excuse not to rp accordingly, IMO. No insult intended but I honestly do believe so. I play each and every pc with fear of magick no matter how much they may come into contact with it. I think it's poor rp to do otherwise.

[LoD]

I still don't see the relationship between rarity and fear of something. Something dangerous=something dangerous, no matter how often or rarely you see it or come into contact with it. I would venture to argue that if you are seeing more of something dangerous it is more realistic to be -more- afraid and more careful, not less. I think that people are using "rarity" as an excuse not to rp accordingly, IMO. No insult intended but I honestly do believe so. I play each and every pc with fear of magick no matter how much they may come into contact with it. I think it's poor rp to do otherwise.

The problem is that you want people to maintain not only the same level of fear, but the same type of response when they encounter magickers despite how those magickers choose to interact with the mundanes.  You have several factors simultaneously breaking down the barriers that are erected by the documentation rather than reinforcing them.

• The documentation says magickers are rare, but magickers visiting the same taverns, using magicks easily within sight of the city-state, and approaching characters on well traveled roads makes them appear common.
• The documentation says they are mysterious, but when they are integrated into clans as a tool and choose to magickally aid mundanes due to a friendship, they begin to remove the layers of mystery enshrouding their kind.

The fear players choose to portray is built not only on a relationship with their rarity, but upon the byproducts of magickers being common and accessible.  When something is common, that requires the people to know how to handle encounters with them, how to react to their presence, and how to deal with their presence.  It's like when you go to parks and they instruct you on what to do when you see a bear, not if you see a bear.  The people visiting the park might exhibit the type of fear you expect, because they've likely never encountered a bear up close and personal.  The park rangers probably encounter them on a semi-daily basis, and the blind fear they might have once demonstrated when placed into a dangerous situation has transformed into respect for what a bear can do because of the training they've developed by being inundated by them.

When the game inundates the playerbase with magick and magickers, it is forcing the players and those player's characters to transform blind fear into that same respect for power by training them to deal with magickers not if they encounter one, but when they encounter them.

Obviously this does not translate to every single character or every single part of the game world, but it has become far more commonplace that it was in past years and those changes cannot be ignored.  You simply cannot expect players to continue to play according to the documentation when the magickers are not.  It's an unfair expectation and a flawed perspective to accuse them of playing poorly or cheating.

I am neither trying to lay blame at the feet of the magickers nor rationalize unrealistic behavior on the part of mundanes.  I am trying to demonstrate that there are factors at work in the current game world which create situations on a widespread scale that contradict the documentation, and to expect players to hold true to them when the conditions have so greatly changed is neither fair to yourself or to those players.

-LoD

[RogueGunslinger]

I think every magicker, elf or breed should be treated with mistrust. Doubly so when they act nice to you.

[Qzzrbl]

I think every magicker, elf or breed should be treated with mistrust. Doubly so when they act nice to you.

The problem is, with most breeds, elves, and 'gickers I've encountered at least, this "niceness" about them is genuine. I have never been swindled by an elf, hell, I don't think I've even been pickpocketed by an elf before. Also, I've never seen any of them not act surprised and deeply hurt when I'm mean to them.

[Rhyden]

I think every magicker, elf or breed should be treated with mistrust. Doubly so when they act nice to you.

The problem is, with most breeds, elves, and 'gickers I've encountered at least, this "niceness" about them is genuine. I have never been swindled by an elf, hell, I don't think I've even been pickpocketed by an elf before. Also, I've never seen any of them not act surprised and deeply hurt when I'm mean to them.

That's because while they're being nice to you, their elf friends' hands are in your pockets. And you never notice with the best of elves.

[roughneck]

It's like when you go to parks and they instruct you on what to do when you see a bear, not if you see a bear.  The people visiting the park might exhibit the type of fear you expect, because they've likely never encountered a bear up close and personal.  The park rangers probably encounter them on a semi-daily basis, and the blind fear they might have once demonstrated when placed into a dangerous situation has transformed into respect for what a bear can do because of the training they've developed by being inundated by them.


-LoD

LoD constructs a logical and objective argument very well on this topic.  In Canada I lived around bears once at work we spotted a black bear on the side of the road, I got out and chased it for kicks and the Nigerian that worked with us shit his pants.

On a different note; if I'm in the desert and hunt giant insects just for food or battle monster gith armies for a living I just might have the constitution of spirit and strength of will to try and do something about that that disgusting magicker I find outside the gates because maybe he's going to corrupt my food supply, or maybe I just like my space out in the desert and this dick should just get back in the city with the rest of his kind, or maybe because it's good for my reputation, or maybe just because I hate magickers.

People are just as likely to kill something they are truly afriad of than run away from it, if they have the ability they may very well risk it.  A sword or a spear is sufficient for a magicker because he is a human being and thus trying to kill them is a logical course of action in my mind.  Plenty of other societies in the past and even primitive ones presently reacted the same way.

Also, some people are reckless and some aren't.  Chances are someone who's chosen to spend his life outside the city is a bit of a risk-taker anyways.

[FantasyWriter]

I think every magicker, elf or breed should be treated with mistrust. Doubly so when they act nice to you.

I dissagree.  According to the docs elves are thieves (Its not a bad thing to call an elf a thief, but it is DANGEROUS to call one a bad thief)
Breeds search hard for acceptance in what ever group they find themselves in.

And I are with Lod on this: The reason people aren't afraid of majickers is bacause they are so common now. That makes the people jaded of them. Doesn make majickers less dangerous, but it does make people fear them less.
It is a human flaw (rather it is a strength or weakness varies) to fear the varies. when something becomes common place it looses is mystery, and people begin to think-truth or not-that they understand it.

Like flying (in a plane) IT IS DANGEROUS Some people are scared shittless at even the idea of getting on a plane, while others do it literally every day of their life.  it is still dangerous, but people become jaded to the idea of the danger.

I played a ranger once who was never inside the walls of Nak or Tuluk for more than a game hour at a time, he nearly went crazy just being 'trapped' in the walls that long.  I think that PC knew more majickers than mundanes personally.  He even moved lots of stuff for them and would trade for them in the cities they weren't allowed in.  Did he fear majick? Yes.  Did he shit in his pants when he met a new obvious 'jicker? No.


If you are upset because your majicker isn't feared. It is becaise you and the other macjickers aren't doing things that would make you feared amoung the masses.  It is my honest opinion that bacause of this change in the societies of Zalanthus, that the docs should be changed to compensate for it, unless of course you non-mundanes want to get out there and do somthing about it.

[jhunter]

Just how "rare" should something be to be considered rare? Rarity is a matter of perspective and opinion.
It appears to me that what some of you consider "rare" I consider -extremely- rare. What some might consider common, I would consider fairly rare.
I still believe that using one's personal opinion of what "rare" should be as an excuse not to rp accordingly to be a copout.
I think that the real issue at hand is that some people's personal preference/perception of how exactly "rare" they should be isn't how things -are- so they -choose- (it really is 100% a choice) to use it as an excuse (not to roleplay accordingly) to make a point that the game is somehow "broken" or that magickers aren't playing up to the documentation.
The fact of the matter is that some people simply will not think that magickers are rare unless they can play several pcs without ever seeing one or evidence of one. Some people believe it very likely, (especially considering that many of them live in one of the major cities) that nearly -every- pc of theirs will see magick or evidence of it here and there throughout their lives.
Some people sit somewhere in the middle of those.
I don't think there is or ever really has been a major problem with it. I think the biggest problem is that noone can agree on exactly -how- rare magick is or should be because everyone has different personal preferences and everyone feels that their particular preference is the "right way".

[FantasyWriter]

unless of course you non-mundanes want to get out there and do somthing about it.

P.S. - Please do, btw. My collection of looted gems has not been growing for sometime now.

[Qzzrbl]

I think every magicker, elf or breed should be treated with mistrust. Doubly so when they act nice to you.

I dissagree.  According to the docs elves are thieves (Its not a bad thing to call an elf a thief, but it is DANGEROUS to call one a bad thief)

Don't know about you, but I don't think it's a great idea to trust a thief.... They might steal from you.

[FantasyWriter]

I think every magicker, elf or breed should be treated with mistrust. Doubly so when they act nice to you.

I dissagree.  According to the docs elves are thieves (Its not a bad thing to call an elf a thief, but it is DANGEROUS to call one a bad thief)

Don't know about you, but I don't think it's a great idea to trust a thief.... They might steal from you.

Oop.... I meant that I don't agree that breeds and juckers should be put in the same catagory as Leves when it come to how to interact with on a personal level.  I VERY much agree that elves can't be trusted.. and if they can, they aren't playing very good elves, then are they?

[Qzzrbl]

Half-elves are half elf.... Half of those dirty, thieving, swindling, money-grubbing bastard genes are flowing through their veins.   


Plus 'gickers steal babies and eat them. And have invisible tentacles that steal your brainz when you let your guard down. And they give you bad luck. And one crossing your path will curse your immediate family with mutant children.

[Desertman]

When people start RP'ing correctly when magickers walk into taverns and sit at the bar, I will start RP'ing correctly when I get half a chance to kill them.

I generally kill any mage I get half a chance to kill. I make it point to infuse every mundane pc I play with a natural hate for magick, so I always have an IC reason to kill magickers any chance I get...Because OOC'ly, I hate them.

Twinkish? Yeah...But I have had years of watching people play happy buddy buddy time with mages at the local taverns when they should be running in revulsion, and noone gets pissed about that.

You cant have it both ways...

You cant say..."I'm not mad about people who rp not being afraid so they can be friends with magickers"

And then say..."I am mad about people who rp not being afraid of magickers so they can be thier enemies."

IF its ok to rp not being afraid of magickers, I'm going to use that feature of the game that completely contradicts the docs in order to kill as many mages as I can for the sole purpose of satiating my desire to destroy them OOC'ly.

[brytta.leofa]

Random encounters can add to the game.

[Desertman]

Random encounters can add to the game.

Ummm. I agree.

[Shoka Windrunner]

Once upon a time, I was a newbie who dilligently read the docs and rolled up a character. I figured she wouldn't -hate- magickers, but definitely wouldn't ever knowingly befriend one either. She'd be vaguely ambivilent, on the side of cautious suspicion, and I'd RP it from there and see where it took me.

Well. She ends up -so- exposed to magickers on -such- a regular basis, that eventually (eventually meaning, over the course of several RL months), she just got used to them. Some of them made it easy for her to get used to. Others didn't. Some were genuinely pleasant and useful, others weren't. But the fact that they were magickers stopped bothering her, and she saw them more on an individual case-by-case thing than as a whole.

The moral of the story, is that if you are regularly exposed to that which you fear, you will either go insane, or you will simply learn to live with whatever it is you used to fear, and stop fearing it. If people want magickers to BE fearsome, it isn't enough that they do mean terrible scary things. They have to do it covertly, rarely..their existence has to be a mystery to everyone else. Otherwise, they really do become "oh yeah, one of those. Whatever, let's go skeet-shooting."

This part...I edited out the part I wanted to comment on.  I agree that you should be able to play your characters as you will.  However.  If you want to know what I think really kills the magickers being scary...is the gemmed.  Is the 'tamed' magickers.  I think ALL magickers should be illegal...or at least treated as they are in Luir's and Red Storm.  Which I totally understand why those two places do it the way they do...they are giant cities. 

The gemmed.  Ruin the magickers.  Every other gemmer, it seems, play the 'I didn't ask for this...it just happened to me...I didn't want to be a 'gicker anymore than you do.  Maybe you should be nicer to me.  It might happen to you!  Let's have a drink and talk about life and the unfairness of it." 

Okay maybe not every other...but a lot.  What hurts more than anything is that they are legal.  They are in your face constantly.  You see them every single day.  I understand how people in Allanak at least wouldn't be afraid.  At least while in the city.  But they might be out in the wastes where there aren't half-giants and templars everywhere.

I say get rid the 'tame' 'gickers and make them outlaws.  Then we might see people more afraid of 'gickers, because...if your a 'gicker and they see your face...they must die.

[Desertman]

I think magickers should be hated and feared like the plague by the common populace. The way the docs say they should.

I also believe any commoners who are caught being buddy buddy with them should be hated and feared like the plague as well, because there is obviously something wrong with them.

Except the ladder should be killed as quickly as possible, before they likewise begin to infect the rest of us with whatever curse or disease the magicker has put on them to melt thier minds and make them so "understanding".

Edited to Add:

Yes the above means that I will kill your PC for no better reason than I caught you associating with a gicker. I now have an IC reason to kill you any time I get half a chance.

I am one of those people who OOC'ly dislikes something people do IG, especially if it goes against documentation, so I find IC reasons to kill your PC. I wont lie, I do it. So get ready gicker lover, I'm going to rape your corspe. I wonder if I need to get consent for that? You know, because I'm sure ooc buddies would be like..."Man, you should have seen what he did to your PC after you were dead."...then technically I will have exposed you to rape rp in a round about way...hrrrm...thats a delimma.

[ale six]

THREAD SUMMARY:

"Hai guys wat should I do if I see a magicker?"
"Omg you should run dude"
"Ya run"
"Be afraid they're SCAAAAAAAAAAARY"
"You should attack them out of fear"
"No way man that's dumb"
"ya srsly"
"hai I'm LoD here's a story about a zoo"
"omg LoD posted now I'm gonna agree"
"me too"
"magick is bad like pollution!"
"pollution is bad? wat about if u drive a car??"
"omg there's so many magickers!!"
"ya and they're too nice"
"o hai I'm LoD and I'm back and here's a rly long post about bears, agree with me"
"omg LoD posted I'm gonna agree"
"hey look at me i spell magick with a j"
"GEMMERS SUCK RAR"

I think we answered the OP's question on page 1.

[LoD]

I think we answered the OP's question on page 1.

And subsequent discussion should stop because of that?

Oh, and here's something to really drive home what you gleaned from my posts, ale six.

-LoD

[ale six]

OMG ITS SO CUUUUUUUUUUUUUTE <3 <3 <3

[Shoka Windrunner]

Sarcasm and words.

Yeah thanks for helping the thread some more.  If you can show me a thread that doesn't start as one question, answer that question, and then expound upon that answer with agreements and disagreements...I'll show you a thread in Ask the Staff.  (which is then brought to another thread for the players to hash out about anyway)

So yeah thanks...

I think the problem is on both sides.  Magicker and mundane.  And I think that it won't be fixed, unless a group of players start playing the evil magickers and just f-ing everyone up.  And mundanes start going...OMG...that's the people's who wiped every tribal camp out!  And half of Luir's!  And two elf clans!  RUN THE FUCK AWAY!!

Then...maybe...people would get it...except that won't work either...because the 'good magickers who are loved and trusted by all' will be trying to help stop the 'bad magickers who just like to PK'.

So the only thing that can probably change it is in a few years when ARM 2.0 comes out...they document it this way again.  And people obey it.  And they ditch the tea addicted magicker idea.  So we don't have 'tame' magickers.

[ale six]

oh ya totally your right we need more threads complaining about magickers on the gdb sorry my bad

[Qzzrbl]

Just start being really mean to any gemmed you see.... It's what I've started doing.  

Just make stuff up. Like at a tavern? Be really obnoxious about it. Try to run them out. Ungemmed 'gickers are to be feared and hated, but there's not much to fear with the gemmed considering they're pretty much under the templarate's thumb. So just hate them. Hate them alot. They're abominations allowed by the city, and hating the templars openly never ends well. So take out all that frustration on the gemmed themselves.

[Lizzie]

Actually it was the -ungemmed- I had that much exposure to, Shoka. It was as though every 3rd PC in the entire game was a magicker, and they all hung out in the same places. Now, granted, my character had need and reason to be in those places, which weren't city bars. So she had more opportunity for such massive exposure. But it still ended up the same way - my character had to do business with them, and so the only options were to put up with it and get used to it and learn to live with it, or - go insane. Since I was technically new (it was my first character, just very long-lived), I figured I'd take the easy way out and RP getting used to it.

I can't blame the magickers themselves really - most of them were very well played, and only a few of them went off on some really weird "oh we must all love each other kumbaya let's hug" stuff. My character just assumed THOSE people were the insane ones.  The ones who -would- scare the shit out of mundanes, were actually pretty scary people, if you hadn't spent the last 5 game-years hanging out with them as a result of commercial/political necessity. Some were scary even if you -did- have to hang out with them.

But again, it wasn't the magicks that made them scary, because after awhile, that whole "omg it's a magicker" just wasn't very impressive. It was the individuals who were scary, because of who they were. Rather than because of which skillset their player picked.

[jhunter]

Just start being really mean to any gemmed you see.... It's what I've started doing.  

Just make stuff up. Like at a tavern? Be really obnoxious about it. Try to run them out. Ungemmed 'gickers are to be feared and hated, but there's not much to fear with the gemmed considering they're pretty much under the templarate's thumb. So just hate them. Hate them alot. They're abominations allowed by the city, and hating the templars openly never ends well. So take out all that frustration on the gemmed themselves.

Exactly. You should expect that here and there you're going to lose a pc to pissing off the wrong one and try not to OOCly get mad about it. After all your pc asked for it. Too often I see people do this and then when something happens to their pc because of it they come running to the GDB spouting off with more OOC magicker-hate, etc. There's nothing wrong with acting IC for your character (to an extent, kank-riding elves are not acceptable), you should always expect and accept that there will be IC consequences to those actions.

[Malken]

I'm glad we still have players like Desertman.

I thought I was the last of a kind left.

My obsidian spear in your face is just as scary as your stupid magick.

[Desertman]

THREAD SUMMARY:

"Hai guys wat should I do if I see a magicker?"
"Omg you should run dude"
"Ya run"
"Be afraid they're SCAAAAAAAAAAARY"
"You should attack them out of fear"
"No way man that's dumb"
"ya srsly"
"hai I'm LoD here's a story about a zoo"
"omg LoD posted now I'm gonna agree"
"me too"
"magick is bad like pollution!"
"pollution is bad? wat about if u drive a car??"
"omg there's so many magickers!!"
"ya and they're too nice"
"o hai I'm LoD and I'm back and here's a rly long post about bears, agree with me"
"omg LoD posted I'm gonna agree"
"hey look at me i spell magick with a j"
"GEMMERS SUCK RAR"

I think we answered the OP's question on page 1.

Summary of the above summary....

emote dodges to the side as a gigantic arcing flame tears through the thread, annihilating all those with opinions, especially those who agree with LOD.

[Shoka Windrunner]

I'm glad we still have players like Desertman.

I thought I was the last of a kind left.

My obsidian spear in your face is just as scary as your stupid magick.

Only because you know OOCly what my magicks can do.

Thanks for proving my point.

If you had no clue what my magicks could do...you might be afraid I'm going to remove your penis, replace it with your spear...with the tip point going -in- and your penis up your behind.

But since you know I can't.  You don't care.  I appreciate it when you help.

[Malken]

My obsidian spear can remove your magicker penis just as well if I aim it just right.

Do I refrain from staring at the moons because I don't know if they'll curse me if I do? Do I refrain from whores because my friend Amos died mysteriously a day after spending the night with one?

So the next magicker you play better be terribly afraid of my ranger just as much as you want my ranger to be afraid of your magicker. Then we can both ignore each other and we'll both be happier for it.

[Nyr]

I'm going to go ahead and lock this thread.  The OP's question was answered in relatively short order (before the inevitable descent into magicker debate).
 
If you'd like to relive years-old debates/discussions about magickers, you can go
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
here,
and here.  (There are more, but I got tired of copying the links into a nonspammy format.)

As a last note, if you are a new (or old) player and have questions about a topic that concerns you, you can use the search feature on the GDB to dig up any old references to the topic.