Sparring

[Sephiroto]

I'd like to see a command or sparring weapons that, when used, changes the the maximum damage calculation to less than or equal to 1 (or some other suitable cap) if the damage roll is greater than whatever causes 'barely grazing' damage.  This should allow all landed blows to bounce off the skin, be absorbed by armor, or barely damage the individual and allow for a more realistic sparring.  It would allow really crappy fighters to take hits from an experienced sparring partner without getting obliterated.

I don't know how the code works or even how to code it, but here is what I see in my head.

*Final damage calculations are made after all dodging/parrying/deflecting measures have been calculated*
Damroll = 7
If Damroll > 3 check for 'sparring flag'
If 'sparring flag' = yes, set damroll 3
Damnroll = 3
*Damage of 3 is now applied against defender's armor score by the piecemail system.  The defender takes the blow and his skin, armor absorbs, or they take slight hp reduction*

Feedback?

[RogueGunslinger]

I like... I like a lot. Now just add a modifier that makes you lose stamina every time you swing, and another that doesn't let you use the weapon with 0 stamina, and you have a decent sparring code.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I like the idea, in concept, but the way the code works, in Arm1, would make sparring with your concept implemented nearly worthless.

[psionic fungus]

I agree, to some extent, but it is my belief that the staff -wants- it to be possible to take a serious wound while sparring... Perhaps they want it to "hurt" so people spar with more realistically frequency or for a more realistic length of time?  If a "wound" system replaced HPs, I would like to see the "wounds" from sparring weapons be customized.

[RogueGunslinger]

I like the idea, in concept, but the way the code works, in Arm1, would make sparring with your concept implemented nearly worthless.

Care to elaborate? I don't know how the code works.

[Tisiphone]

I don't like the idea, at least not without a skill check against the weapons-skill first. Reason being, the sparring weapons Zalanthans use are simply blunted versions of the actual weapons. Those are -dangerous-, and sparring injuries when using such equipment is historically common.

[RogueGunslinger]

Add a random chance of a hit causing real damage?

[Sephiroto]

The idea here is to give the players the option to tone down their sparring by choice, not to make all sparring like this.  The combat code is rigid.  No matter how hard we RP taking it easy on someone in the ring, we always combat them with full force, whether we intend to or not.

Having a command toggle to reduce the final damage outcome after all skills and checks have been made, which is what I proposed, seems like a good idea for certain characters in leadership/training roles to take advantage of.

In response to 7DV, I don't see how this would -not- benefit characters.  If you're strong enough to brutally obliterate a sparring partner, you're not going to learn with the current code anyway.  Furthermore, completely handing a sparring partner their ass in one or two rounds of combat greatly reduces the chance that the trainee will experience an opportunity to learn.

To address the issue of accidentally injuring your partner a random failure of the sparring flag could be put in place with a check versus an agility roll.

Why don't we go all out and try making "sparring" a skill learnable by warrior class.  This would help guide the warrior guild in the direction of drill Sergeant instead of "useless compared to a branched ranger."

[FuSoYa]

The idea here is to give the players the option to tone down their sparring by choice, not to make all sparring like this.  The combat code is rigid.  No matter how hard we RP taking it easy on someone in the ring, we always combat them with full force, whether we intend to or not.

Having a command toggle to reduce the final damage outcome after all skills and checks have been made, which is what I proposed, seems like a good idea for certain characters in leadership/training roles to take advantage of.

In response to 7DV, I don't see how this would -not- benefit characters.  If you're strong enough to brutally obliterate a sparring partner, you're not going to learn with the current code anyway.  Furthermore, completely handing a sparring partner their ass in one or two rounds of combat greatly reduces the chance that the trainee will experience an opportunity to learn.

To address the issue of accidentally injuring your partner a random failure of the sparring flag could be put in place with a check versus an agility roll.

Why don't we go all out and try making "sparring" a skill learnable by warrior class.  This would help guide the warrior guild in the direction of drill Sergeant instead of "useless compared to a branched ranger."

Honestly, I would love to see something like this implemented.

[Barzalene]

I also think this would make sparring realistic. I remember sparring with black-belts who outweighed me by fifty pounds. They could manage to completely kick my ass with no more than the occasional bruise. If it's codable, it would be great to have it implemented.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I like the idea, in concept, but the way the code works, in Arm1, would make sparring with your concept implemented nearly worthless.

Care to elaborate? I don't know how the code works.

I can't. Specifics on game mechanics are not something that one is allowed to divulge. I'm just saying .... it would make sparring nearly pointless, unless something in the engine was changed to match the asthetics of the idea, or, the code is evolved enough from Diku to render my suspicion inaccurate.

An Immortal could tell me I am wrong without divulging any information, and I would be behind the idea.

And Seph, your concern is not ... uhm, completely accurate, based on my suspicions. But I could be wrong.

[Greve]

.

[Zoan]

I know the Japanese used oaken bokken blades for their sparring, not like the shinai they use today (bokken = wooden staves designed to weigh about the same as a katana blade, shinai are the 'kendo' staves, made of flexible strips of bamboo). But the japanese were hardcore.

[Mood]

Getting hit by large, blunted bone and wooden weapons is painful and dangerous.

[musashi]

I know the Japanese used oaken bokken blades for their sparring, not like the shinai they use today (bokken = wooden staves designed to weigh about the same as a katana blade, shinai are the 'kendo' staves, made of flexible strips of bamboo). But the japanese were hardcore.

Both of which hurt like a son of a bitch and can/do break bones and make people bleed if you aren't wearing armor.

[RogueGunslinger]

I think the point of changing the sparring code is not so much to make it portray an accuracy in how much damage a blunted weapon can do, but to make up for the issues in the combat code that disallows the ability to spar realistically.

In real life can you be seriously injured by a sparring weapon? You bet your ass. In real life the odds of completely beating someone within an inch of their life on accident every time you spar is relatively low, though.

Is it dangerous? Not as dangerous as the current code makes it, that's for damn sure.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I think the point of changing the sparring code is not so much to make it portray an accuracy in how much damage a blunted weapon can do, but to make up for the issues in the combat code that disallows the ability to spar realistically.

In real life can you be seriously injured by a sparring weapon? You bet your ass. In real life the odds of completely beating someone within an inch of their life on accident every time you spar is relatively low, though.

Is it dangerous? Not as dangerous as the current code makes it, that's for damn sure.

At the very least, I think it's realistic enough to be able to consciously hold back in sparring, rather than always fighting full-force.

[Zoan]

I dunno about that. I want to beat the living drov out of recruits because I *can*, bitches.

[Vox]

The real issue here though is sparring should be a harsh game of practiced survival. Those who learn quickly get hit less.

Nobody is 'accidentally' beating someone within an inch of their life unless they're a half-giant, and in that case they shouldn't be able to control that anyway.

Most people only nick and graze with sparring weapons in general, with the occasional solid hit. People should not be sparring to below Does Not Look Well anyway unless they're in some arena contest and they're willingly taking risks with their life for money. (then it's always okay )

Call me a traditionalist, but I like the combat code just the way it is. Sparring seems far more realistic when you're teaching people how to fight by tagging them in the face until they learn to block. If you're taking it 'easy' on them then you're not sparring and you could just as easily 'EMOTE' such an episode of silliness.

Besides, master fighters can always go unarmed or use a non-proficient weapon in an off hand to 'go softer' on their opponents.

This issue seems very easy to work around on a case by case basis rather than requiring a general change to the code.

[psionic fungus]

In baguazhang there is no sparring precisely because you do not fight with full force when you are sparring and they do not want to train the body to pull punches.  Of course, they claim it is far too dangerous to spar at full force. 

[LoD]

Toggling the "mercy" flag will generally stop you from making mistakes if your opponent suddenly falters, falls, or otherwise enters an extremely vulnerable position as a result of fighting or other activity.

That's about as "safe" as I'd like sparring to become, because there's a trade off happening here.  Your character is increasing their ability to defend themselves and attack others simultaneously within a controlled environment.  The skills these characters are learning and improving by sparring will transfer directly to the dangerous and deadly real world, so it's only fair that a small element of the danger transfers into the controlled sparring environment.

And, really, you have so many methods by which you can reduce the levels of danger in a given sparring environment that accidents should only occur as a result of laziness, negligence, or perhaps someone's personal agenda.

-LoD

[Inix77]

It's confusing, because realistically when you spar some one you try not to hurt them too bad, right? But in Arm I've seen no way of doing this, just by using blunted weapons, but your char still goes out on their full power/strength, so how is this realistic? Because I know if I was doing this OOC with my friends, I wouldn't be trying to hurt them......sometimes 

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Seriously, there are a ton of ways to monitor and adjust your combative style and potentness. Trust me. Trust LoD. Trust X-D. There are a ton of ways.

[X-D]

Hey wait, I had not even posted on this thread!

But still, they are correct. There are MANY IC ways to nerf yourself for sparring...if you want to.

And if your talking RL sparring with your friends. Well, your correct and your not. If you are just playing around you will hold back and try to not hurt them, but this does you no good once you have to face the real thing. In my practice for knife fighting, armored fighting, unarmed, I try REALLY hard to hurt my opponent, even if its a friend. The difference is, I will stop short of killing them if I can. This is represented IG with mercy, Disengage and flee.

[Gimfalisette]

The idea here is to give the players the option to tone down their sparring by choice, not to make all sparring like this.  The combat code is rigid.  No matter how hard we RP taking it easy on someone in the ring, we always combat them with full force, whether we intend to or not.

...

Why don't we go all out and try making "sparring" a skill learnable by warrior class.  This would help guide the warrior guild in the direction of drill Sergeant instead of "useless compared to a branched ranger."

When I played a combat leader, I pretty much could always modify my ability in the sparring ring in order to train even the most newbie of non-warriors. It's not that hard to do. With experience (that is, my ability as a player), the only time I ever really hurt a n00b was when I wanted to

[RogueGunslinger]

Since no one is saying how to do these things, I figure I might as well.


-Firstly, 'Mercy on'.
1: Using a weapon you aren't trained with.
2: Using a weapon in an off hand.
3: Weighing yourself down
4: Using no weapons/shield in primary hand.
5:Any combination these.

-Try not to bash too often. Disarm and kick are alright, though health should be monitored.

There anything else I'm missing?

[Is Friday]

Find out IC.

edit: They're sort of logical.

Think: How would you hinder yourself in the same RL situation?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yeh, sorta why nobody mentioned them...

[Twilight]

Sparring gives people an insight to what real combat would be like.  By capping damage, you would be taking away this insight.  If there would be any coded difference between a sparring weapon and a really crappy normal weapon, it should be, imho, something that changes the relative weightings of where you hit, decreasing the chance that you hit someone in the head.  Head shots in sparring can kill, at least in rl, outright.

Otherwise, I quite like how sparring works.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

That's sorta a good idea - the better you become, the fewer neck and head shots you should land in sparring. A simple check for a sparring weapon from the combat code could accomplish this.

[Is Friday]

That's sorta a good idea - the better you become, the fewer neck and head shots you should land in sparring. A simple check for a sparring weapon from the combat code could accomplish this.

This could work in conjunction with the mercy code. Mercy off, ignore your ability to hit the head/neck. Mercy on, the opposite effect is tried for.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yuppers - I like it.

[jhunter]

Yuppers - I like it.

So long as when you -could've- easily landed a head or neck shot but struck somewhere safer instead the code tells you that you did so. It does help for one to gauge their comparative skill while sparring just like one would be able to in RL.

[Only He Stands There]

Some of us use mercy in actual combat because we don't want our opponent to immediately die.

That doesn't mean we don't want them to get injured/go unconscious as fast as humanly possible.

[Inix77]

Some of us use mercy in actual combat because we don't want our opponent to immediately die.

That doesn't mean we don't want them to get injured/go unconscious as fast as humanly possible.

This is what I mean. In the game, you spar with your best weapons at the start, but you still go out to 'kill' or do as much damage to the other person as possible, unrealistic as they are your comrades.

[Only He Stands There]

And what I'm saying is that, when playing a complete combat beast of a PC, I usually have mercy on when I'm raiding/protecting my turf/mugging people. I don't want to kill them - at least not straight off, as I like to let them roleplay a little before they get whomped - but that doesn't mean I want them able to survive 30 rounds of combat because I'm not hitting him in his vitals. I want him on the ground as soon as humanly possible.

[psionic fungus]

The problem is, though, if it works like this:

Mercy off, ignore your ability to hit the head/neck. Mercy on, the opposite effect is tried for.

You will not be able to appropriately attack someone that you only want to disable or knock out (mercy on in a real fight).

[Only He Stands There]

Precisely.

[jhunter]

Maybe a "spar" command that acts like mercy except with the added above suggestions and keep our mercy command as is.

[psionic fungus]

Of course, in 2.Arm, I hope to see the combat rounds slowed at least a bit, and called shots introduced...

Thus, in sparring you would be able to do a called shot to the "torso" or "body" every round and not just beat the living shit out of your runners...  Of course, if you wanted to teach someone a lesson, there would be options.

[Twilight]

Nosave sparring

[Qzzrbl]

Here's an idea.

Make different types of fighting..... Like there could be "Evasive" where the attacker or attackee tries to do nothing but keep his distance and dodge and parry and block and maybe throw out a couple hits every few rounds. "Balanced" where it's a mix of attacking and dodging and all. "Offensive" where it's balls-to-the-wall attacking. Maybe even a few more, I dunno. Add something to those like "Offensive spar" "Evasive spar" etc., etc. To where any and all attacks aren't directed at vital areas.

[RogueGunslinger]

Are you high?

[Qzzrbl]

Are you high?

That is entirely beside the point.