The role of PC's

[gfair]

Gfair, I'll adress your comments to me here since you made them here, but if you have any in the future, please feel free to send them via a private message:

I was, as you were without making the "this is addressed to everyone" disclaimer, only interpreting it as intended.  Since the last part made bold statements like "Think you're special?  Prove it!" and so forth, it seems silly for you to be speaking to anyone else but the person you responded to.  Yes, of course, the interpretation could also be made that you are speaking to a character, but in context, and without anything looking like an adequate disclaimer, and given your past history of comments towards my opinions, it is far too easy to assume that you are singling out one person, and not addressing the group.

Actually, gfair, I believe thats what I was doing. I felt I expressed my statements quite clearly.  When I say "you," "your," and "yours" (Such as "the world does not revolve around you") I'm typically adressing myself to the significant number of readers on the GDB, and not you in particular, gfair.  If I was directly adressing you personally on the general discussion board, gfair, I'd make it quite clear by using your name, similar to the way you just used mine repeatedly and the way I'm using yours now, or through a private message.

Rather, the better alternative would be to say "You (everyone)" or "if the group of players thinks" or "if each character on Zalanthas thinks".  Those are much better at addressing issues without getting personal.  So, next time, think about that.  You, your, used over and over, makes it unlikely that you are seriously addressing the general readership.

I rebutted your points with those of my own and stated my beliefs in general, gfair.  If you take that as taking things too seriously or believe that disagreement with your opinions is an attack on you personally, then

You were obviously taking things too seriously at the end of your post, which is quiet consistent with what I've seen from message boards, discussion forums, and conversations in general in life.  The disagreement was not presented as a disagreement at all, but rather in direct contrast, implying there was something wrong.  Just as you failed to include any disclaimer about making comments to the readership or the entire group of characters, you also failed to make any disclaimer about it being your opinion.  While that, too, is an easy assumption, it's also a common failure on the part of the writer to forget that the line between presenting an argument as opinion versus fact is very blurry, made even more so when unsettled.

Hope that gives you some good tips for sharing other opinions when you disagree strongly. Also, saying things like "I disagree", or "We may find no common ground, but I tend to ...", etc.

The art of communicating your message effectively, and as you intend it, is an extremely hard one, Fedaykin, and most people can use a lot of practice, so don't be too cautious in citing context and speaking whatever comes to mind.

[RideTheDivide]

Thanks to everyone for your input on this.  It really clarified the issue in my mind.  The conclusions I draw from all of this:

- Some at least agree that they view PC's as "exceptional" in that they tend to have a desire to do more with their lives than the average person.  So if I take that mindset when I play I am not entirely out of line.

- There is some concern that this kind of thinking could lead to players thinking of their PC's as "special" or - worse - "above the rules" of everyday life.  So its wise for those of us who do think of things this way to keep that in mind and try to both RP as "plain folk" and have our characters not think of themselves too much as anything other than "plain folk".

Thanks for all the great thoughts on this!  It really helped clarify it in my mind.

[X-D]

Your kidding, we made sense? Wow, Your welcome...I think.

- There is some concern that this kind of thinking could lead to players thinking of their PC's as "special" or - worse - "above the rules" of everyday life. So its wise for those of us who do think of things this way to keep that in mind and try to both RP as "plain folk" and have our characters not think of themselves too much as anything other than "plain folk".

I thought that was worth repeating...and I agree.

[spawnloser]

- Some at least agree that they view PC's as "exceptional" in that they tend to have a desire to do more with their lives than the average person.  So if I take that mindset when I play I am not entirely out of line.

- There is some concern that this kind of thinking could lead to players thinking of their PC's as "special" or - worse - "above the rules" of everyday life.  So its wise for those of us who do think of things this way to keep that in mind and try to both RP as "plain folk" and have our characters not think of themselves too much as anything other than "plain folk".

Well, I think out of all the bickering, you got the meat of the message.

However, I should mention that everyone is more important to themselves than anyone else is.  You can think of yourself as something other than plain, but keep in mind that someone may change those beliefs on you very quickly if you get too uppity.

[X-D]

I hate when two people think the same thing at the same time.


Em glares at the two posts above

[spawnloser]

I hate when two people think the same thing at the same time.


Em glares at the two posts above

<--- This is me grinning.

[Kalden]

Ideally, the PCs aren't anything different from the normal population. Realistically, they are practically the only population. There is a small society of PCs that make up the majority of the things that happen in the world, and we don't see the effects of NPC's actions very often, from what I've seen. It wouldn't even be that hard for one PC to be known by most of the PCs in the game, but still not be famous in the known world.

Ask yourself this testing question: If there had been no PCs' pushing for independence in the North, would it have rebelled?

I honestly don't know, I'm a newbie, but it seems to me that PCs can and do make an truly exceptional difference in the world. Ten or twenty PCs get together out of the hundreds of thousands of VNPCs... and they can and often do change the world.

We don't really hear about what the NPC's do that often, especially VNPCs, and as far as I can tell they don't make that huge of an effect on the world. If they did, the staff would have to be doing a whole lot of work just for the sake of realism.

[Fedaykin]

[/topic]

Something about your responses Fedaykin tell me that you take things way too seriously.

The art of communicating your message effectively, and as you intend it, is an extremely hard one, Fedaykin, and most people can use a lot of practice, so don't be too cautious in citing context and speaking whatever comes to mind.

So which is it?  Am I taking the discussion too "seriously" or am I "too cautious" in speaking whatever comes to my mind?  Or was that simply a line to practice "the art" of condescension?

without anything looking like an adequate disclaimer, and given your past history of comments towards my opinions, it is far too easy to assume that you are singling out one person, and not addressing the group.

We have a history of me directing comments at your opinions?  Aside from this topic I remember a single issue about ignore and moderation features on the GDB from some months back.  Is there something else I'm missing? I quoted more than just you in that previous topic, and no one else seems to have had any trouble at all in understanding my posts and opinions, aside from yourself. Also, I don't recall a disclaimer in all of your own posts or after all of your own opinions stating them as such.  In an argumentative conversation over unclear issues on the general discussion board, that is typically naturally assumed (*Disclaimer* In my opinion).

Hope that gives you some good tips for sharing other opinions when you disagree strongly.

Now that we're completely off topic and on to argument making, why don't I reciprocate and give you some constructive advice for attempting to state your own opinions:

Attacking the Person
(argumentum ad hominem)

Definition: The person presenting an argument is attacked instead of the argument itself.
ad hominem (abusive): instead of attacking an assertion, the argument attacks the person who made the assertion.

No matter how strongly you may have felt I disagreed with your opinions, or how much you felt my disagreement was directed solely at you personally, I was still adressing points and never resorted to attacking you personally.  From your comments at me in this topic and from your comments to those who disagreed with you over the ignore and/or moderating features where you told people who held opposing points of views that they didn't understand the issue or were lacking of the facts, this logical fallacy may be something you have a problem with.  However, I by no means intend to imply that that is indicitive of all your posts.  You typically have good points even if I do not agree with them, and I have nothing against you personally.  If you're going to attack me personally though, there is a deeply ingrained streak in my blood that prevents me from not responding.

[topic]

- There is some concern that this kind of thinking could lead to players thinking of their PC's as "special" or - worse - "above the rules" of everyday life. So its wise for those of us who do think of things this way to keep that in mind and try to both RP as "plain folk" and have our characters not think of themselves too much as anything other than "plain folk".

Indeed.  I'm glad you understand that opinion and where those of us who hold it are coming from even if you don't necessarily hold it yourself, RideTheDivide.  As the staff has already illustrated in a previous thread, http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2720 , often players  have a tendency to believe their characters more important than they actually are and hence can sometimes end up playing somewhat unrealistically within the world.

Basically, players overlook the virtual world when estimating their place in it, and tend to assume themselves much more important than they are.

That is what I think many people who hold this opinion are simply trying to prevent, and towards that end do not want to see a bad precedent of PC's being viewed as more important or special than the rest of the populace started.

Thanks to everyone for your input on this. It really clarified the issue in my mind.

I'm glad the topic helped to at least clarify the various points of view on the issue