Our New Market Economy!

[Dakkon Black]

Items in shops have a random chance of being virtually sold

There is now a chance that every hour a shop is open items in the shopkeepers inventory will be 'virtually' sold to vNPCs.  This is not a huge chance, but over time it will put a mark on the economy.  

As items sell off merchants will have more money to buy items, as well as hopefully reduce duplicates of items, allowing crafted/foraged items to be sold to merchants.

I CAN NOT  THANK YOU ENOUGH! OMFG YOU ARE AN AMAZING EXAMPLE OF HOW WE ALL NEED MORE JEANS!

Seriously though, this is uber exciting.

[manonfire]

I like.

[Gimfalisette]

This is pretty neat.

With less-frequent reboots, and items being sold virtually, I'm now wondering what about items that only appear once per reboot, or in some other limited quantity?

[Morgenes]

This is pretty neat.

With less-frequent reboots, and items being sold virtually, I'm now wondering what about items that only appear once per reboot, or in some other limited quantity?

We have the ability to set shops up to randomly load items.  There might be some shops that need to be adjusted to use this, but all in all, this should be covered already.

[Dalmeth]

Will low-traffic shops eventually sell out of their stock?

[psionic fungus]

Morgenes, a few comments:

First, I like it.

Second, I hope that shops will sell items that they have multiple copies of -before- selling unique items.  I would hate to see the 5000 'sid Sword of Doom disappear after having been in the Salaar shop for only an hour, while they have had a stockpile of "five" flight arrows for three weeks.

That is, I would like to see more cheap and common items being "sold" and cycled out much more frequently than rare and expensive items.

Awesome!

[Morgenes]

Will low-traffic shops eventually sell out of their stock?

It depends on how the shop is set up.  I believe all are set up to infinitely sell some items.  Infinitely loaded items will never disappear from the shop's stock, although they will virtually sell and increase the money available to the merchant.

...
Second, I hope that shops will sell items that they have multiple copies of -before- selling unique items.  I would hate to see the 5000 'sid Sword of Doom disappear after having been in the Salaar shop for only an hour, while they have had a stockpile of "five" flight arrows for three weeks.

That is, I would like to see more cheap and common items being "sold" and cycled out much more frequently than rare and expensive items.

The items that are chosen to be sold is completely random.  We thought about making it based on supply/demand but decided to leave it simple for now.

[Ghost]

Selling them random makes sense.  Because the merchant does not care whether he has multiples of some kind and only one of the other kind when selling.  Buyers don't care about it either.  So if there is any selling to vNPCs, it should be all random.

Thanks a lot for adding this Morgenes.

[psionic fungus]

I would think that the vNPC that has the money to buy an expensive and rare item is less common than, say, the dozens of hunters that come through every day to buy arrows...

That's all I'm saying.  Use logic.

Logic also tells me that if there are 10 items being sold and 5 of them are "unique" (to the store) while 5 of them are common and the shop has a full stock, then, at random, there is more of a chance that one of the 25 common items will be sold than the 5 rare items... So long as the random pool includes all the duplicates...

[Belenos]

I would think that the vNPC that has the money to buy an expensive and rare item is less common than, say, the dozens of hunters that come through every day to buy arrows...

That's all I'm saying.  Use logic.

it's entirely possible that the uber sword of doom is a highly sought after item, and as such is snapped up just as fast as the shop owner procures it.  That is as logical as anything else you have offered up.  The code has been up all of what...hours?  Logic would state that one should give it some time before deciding it doesn't fit your requirements

[Maybe42or54]

That. *deap breath* Is. *deep breath* Awesome. *deep breath*

[psionic fungus]

I was more correcting myself than anything.

I ain't not complaining... 

Just commenting as a progression of information and ideas promulgates.   


Thanks, awesome update...

[Archbaron]

Simply amazing!

[manonfire]

I ain't not complaining... 

Double negative! So.. you're either complaining, or have no idea how to use the word "ain't".

[touringCompl3t3]

This development is awesome!

[psionic fungus]

I was speaking in redneck... As far as I can determine the phrase "ain't not" seems to absolve one of responsibility.

I had been initially disappointed, see, but then logic proved superior to my pessimism. 

I suppose there -are- hordes of vNPC nobles wandering around wanting to snatch up Swords o' DOOM as well...

[Tisiphone]

Please stop misusing the word logic, it makes me hurt inside.

[Mood]

Please stop misusing the word logic, it makes me hurt inside.

[psionic fungus]

Please stop misusing the word logic, it makes me hurt inside.

I hate to get brought into these semantic arguments, but I feel I must defend my completely legitimate uses of the word "logic".

How insane is this place?

Main Entry:
    log·ic Listen to the pronunciation of logic
Pronunciation:
    \ˈlä-jik\
Function:
    noun
Etymology:
    Middle English logik, from Anglo-French, from Latin logica, from Greek logikē, from feminine of logikos of reason, from logos reason — more at legend
Date:
    12th century

1 a (1): a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning (2): a branch or variety of logic <modal logic> <Boolean logic> (3): a branch of semiotic; especially : syntactics (4): the formal principles of a branch of knowledge b (1): a particular mode of reasoning viewed as valid or faulty (2): relevance, propriety c: interrelation or sequence of facts or events when seen as inevitable or predictable d: the arrangement of circuit elements (as in a computer) needed for computation; also : the circuits themselves2: something that forces a decision apart from or in opposition to reason <the logic of war>
— lo·gi·cian Listen to the pronunciation of logician \lō-ˈji-shən\ noun

Let's focus in particular on this definition:

c: interrelation or sequence of facts or events when seen as inevitable or predictable

And the statement in question:

Logic also tells me that if there are 10 items being sold and 5 of them are "unique" (to the store) while 5 of them are common and the shop has a full stock, then, at random, there is more of a chance that one of the 25 common items will be sold than the 5 rare items... So long as the random pool includes all the duplicates...

Do you see how the interrelation of these facts can be seen as predictable?

Yay!  Words!  I can use them!

Can't I?   

[Tisiphone]

Yay!  Words!  I can use them!

Can't I?   

No. Logic involves interpolation from premises, of which, if you have any, all of yours were unstated in your 'logical' connection, making it not even enthymemic. However, this is a derail, and if you wish to discuss the definition of the word logic further, we can do that in PMs. Or better yet, not.

[psionic fungus]

You seem to ignore the very valid definition I have provided and insist upon using philosophical jargon.

When you desire to communicate in the real world, let me know...

But I will try once more and paraphrase what I have already elucidated:

Previously I had stated that the system whereby items are removed from shops should utilize logic.  By logic I meant a predictable interrelation of facts, a perfectly valid definition of the word.

It is logical that a rare item would be removed from the shop on a less frequent basis if the removals were random because (in my earlier example) a "common" item has an 83% chance of being chosen while a "rare" item has only a 16% chance.

There is no misuse of the word logic in this (or my other) post.  Sorry.   

[Zalanthan]

I don't think it matters whether the random sales to vNPCs are divided among the number of unique items or the number of total items in a shopkeeper's inventory.  While the first method may lead to rarer items disappearing more frequently, one could argue this is a better model because vNPCs would also recognize its rarity.  For example, a wealthy vNPC visits her favorite shop and sees for the first time a Sword of Doom; she might buy it instead of a more common item because they always carry those and she can get them next week.

The more I consider the various factors that would influence vNPC sales the more I am convinced a random system is a great solution.  We can discuss dynamic prices, perceived utility, availability of substitutes, regional category demand tables and the like in the Reborn forum.

[RogueGunslinger]

Please stop misusing the word logic, it makes me hurt inside.

God you're such a bitch.



It's somewhat attractive.

[Lizzie]

Next time, in promulgating your esoteric cogitations, or articulating your superficial sentimentalities and amicable, philosophical or psychological observations, beware of platitudinous ponderosity. Let your conversational communications possess a clarified conciseness, a compacted comprehensibleness, coalescent consistency, and a concatenated cogency. Eschew all conglomerations of flatulent garrulity, jejune babblement, and asinine affectations.

Let your extemporaneous descantings and unpremeditated expatiations have intelligibility and veracious vivacity, without rodomontade or thrasonical bombast. Sedulously avoid all polysyllabic profundity, pompous prolixity, psittaceous vacuity ventriloquial verbosity, and vaniloquent vapidity. Shun double-entendres, prurient jocosity, and pestiferous profanity, obscurant or apparent!!

Oh and have a nice day.

[Tisiphone]

However, this is a derail, and if you wish to discuss the definition of the word logic further, we can do that in PMs. Or better yet, not.

What about inflation of the PC economy?

[Yam]

Inflation isn't really an issue in 1.arm, is it?

Prices on a vast majority of things are set within specific ranges by the staff.

Most "stuff" comes into the game from the merchant houses. Most objects have suggest retail values (or whatever) which can be tweaked by specific merchants.

NPC shops don't pay more or less for items based on the value of the obsidian coin.

Can any appreciable inflation occur in something so structured and closed?

[Zalanthan]

The recent changes will most likely bring about a reduction in the global money supply.  If prices weren't static, this would actually lead to deflation over inflation.

[X-D]

Wait...How can it bring a reduction of money?

Before we had npc merchants that basicly only got money by reboots once a week more or less, PCs and noble stipend.

Now you have all of the above PLUS Vnpcs buying stuff so the NPCs get even more money. And at the same time by sometimes buying things  that are already at the 5 limit allowing PCs to sell more.

Looks like an INCREASE of overall money IG to me.

[Malken]

I have my own theory that this is going to help the already rich players get richer and the poor ones and starting characters be poorer.

Before, we did not have -one- reboot once a week or so, we had maybe three to five if we were lucky, which enabled any Amos with a crafting subguild to go and dump everything in the shops until the next reboot a few days later..

Now you might think that the fact that vNPCs are going to help Amos sell more often, but that is wrong, now that the mud is not going to be crashing weekly, and that we could go up to two weeks if not more without a reboot, those shops that have 100+ items where all the newbies go to make their money MIGHT have an item being bought once in a while, but for that to happen, you need for the vNPC to actually buy something, and for that vNPC to actually pick the x5 item that are always most commonly sold by the majority of the players.

Instead of the game crashing every three days and you being able to go and sell your x5 items once more, now you'll actually MAYBE get to sell an extra item from your x5 ones once every few days or so, depending on how many items are already on sale in that shop.

So no more newly created hunters making a fortune by selling goudra hides every two-three days x5, you see what I mean? Instead, they'll be lucky if they get to sell an extra pelt every 3-5 days in a shop that already has over a hundred items on sale.

[X-D]

First, if staff thinks they need to, I'm sure they can tweak the timing.

But as it stands, if a NPC sells 1 item every 60 min out of the pool of items that DON'T load on a boot that is 24 items per day.

After 72 hours now MOST npc merchants don't have 24 items that were not boot load items.

Also, you are assuming the game will never crash or boot, Put that to rest man, unless they never add anything at all new to the game and lock all players in 1 room with only the say command, there will be crashes and reboots.

[Shoka Windrunner]

First, if staff thinks they need to, I'm sure they can tweak the timing.

But as it stands, if a NPC sells 1 item every 60 min out of the pool of items that DON'T load on a boot that is 24 items per day.

After 72 hours now MOST npc merchants don't have 24 items that were not boot load items.

Also, you are assuming the game will never crash or boot, Put that to rest man, unless they never add anything at all new to the game and lock all players in 1 room with only the say command, there will be crashes and reboots.

I have a feeling the resultant chaos of 'say's would crash everything.  Due to the IMM's being completely frustrated with the chaos and annoyance of the whole thing and smash ginka with a morningstar +5 of digital violence.

[Malken]

First, if staff thinks they need to, I'm sure they can tweak the timing.

But as it stands, if a NPC sells 1 item every 60 min out of the pool of items that DON'T load on a boot that is 24 items per day.

After 72 hours now MOST npc merchants don't have 24 items that were not boot load items.

Also, you are assuming the game will never crash or boot, Put that to rest man, unless they never add anything at all new to the game and lock all players in 1 room with only the say command, there will be crashes and reboots.

The game hadn't crashed in almost two weeks until they decided to reboot it yesterday to put in that new economy system, after they fixed that memory leak.

Also, there's a difference between you saying that a NPC will sell 1 item every 60 minutes and Morgenes saying that there's a CHANCE that a NPC will buy an item every 60 minutes.

We don't know what that chance is, it might be 50%, or it might be 5%.

From what I'm seeing, the chance that a NPC will come and buy something isn't that high so far.

[Nyr]

This is new code.  It has been tested, adjusted, tested, adjusted some more, tested, adjusted some more.  Repeat that last part a few more times. 
It hasn't been live much more than 24 hours yet.  However, if there are any unforeseen problems, it is easily tweakable, from what I have seen.

I wouldn't put the cart before the horse; it would be best to wait and see how things turn out. 
If you notice any problems, please bug them or send in a staff request if the bug tool does not quite cover the length of your explanation.

[jcljules]

This is great! 

I was beginning to get worried about no reboots for two weeks... I thought my character was going to die! But with the new system, I can make money AND not be a reboot-camping twink.

[musashi]

I think this was a great idea as well! It's my modest hope that sometime in the future shopkeepers' scripts could be changed a little as well to make the game seem a bit more diverse and alive.

I just mean to say, it seems a little odd to me that in a city, you have one or two shops designated as the "we buy components" shop, and no other shop will. I wish that ... for example ... fletchery shops bought arrow making components so they could use them to make more arrows ... or that weapon shops would buy weapon making compoents ... ect ect.

Anyway that is a small derail, sorry. I love the new code addition.

[FuSoYa]

I think this was a great idea as well! It's my modest hope that sometime in the future shopkeepers' scripts could be changed a little as well to make the game seem a bit more diverse and alive.

I just mean to say, it seems a little odd to me that in a city, you have one or two shops designated as the "we buy components" shop, and no other shop will. I wish that ... for example ... fletchery shops bought arrow making components so they could use them to make more arrows ... or that weapon shops would buy weapon making compoents ... ect ect.

Anyway that is a small derail, sorry. I love the new code addition.

I think the main issue with something like this is that you will have every type of shop's inventory list cluttered up with components.  Though if you could sell them and they wouldn't be listed because they were being used for new items... that would be hot.

Brandon

[Nyr]

I just mean to say, it seems a little odd to me that in a city, you have one or two shops designated as the "we buy components" shop, and no other shop will. I wish that ... for example ... fletchery shops bought arrow making components so they could use them to make more arrows ... or that weapon shops would buy weapon making compoents ... ect ect.

Most shops that you speak of are part of larger organizations that already have supply lines virtually/PC established.  What you are concerned about is happening, just mostly virtually within the Houses.
The points we both make become moot when it is considered that this has been discussed for Armageddon Reborn already, though, which will have a different economy system.

[musashi]

I just mean to say, it seems a little odd to me that in a city, you have one or two shops designated as the "we buy components" shop, and no other shop will. I wish that ... for example ... fletchery shops bought arrow making components so they could use them to make more arrows ... or that weapon shops would buy weapon making compoents ... ect ect.

Most shops that you speak of are part of larger organizations that already have supply lines virtually/PC established.  What you are concerned about is happening, just mostly virtually within the Houses.
The points we both make become moot when it is considered that this has been discussed for Armageddon Reborn already, though, which will have a different economy system.

Sounds good to me then 

[Maybe42or54]

I have my own theory that this is going to help the already rich players get richer and the poor ones and starting characters be poorer.

I think that is awesome. If I was a rich merchant, I'd be able to hire the bynn, bribe the Militia PCs into beating up the elven bitches, bribe the elvish tribes to smuggle me in goods, make more money from that, then pay more for rare goods form PCs that want to travle, but don't want to hunt all day. Win-win-win-win-win.

It would suck, and doesn't really change anything if a 'sid pinching player, that is rich, gets even more rich. They aren't going to do anything differently, so why think about them? The potential for fun and 'sid lies in the first merchant.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Wow...  I was hoping that Arm would setup something like this at some point.  This would give more viable options for PC markets too.

Now I'm curious about this though...  is the pull entirely random or is it based at all on how much the item is actually worth?  The reason I ask this is because a shop that sells a bunch 1000 sid items would randomly sell those items at the same rate say the shop with a bunch of 50 sid items.  As Zalanthas has pretty much only NPC shops it doesn't matter as much, but what if this was the case for a PC shop?  For one it would seem they would gain much more profit selling just a few high priced items rather than a lot of a lower price.

With another mud I know they use a tag system which determines how much a vNPC buys from a shopkeeper per day.

Just curious, but still extremely happy to see merchandise moving amongst the game so that merchants any many others can now sell product to NPCs if they are not able to sell it to a PC.  Economy is a hard thing to work with in any game that is created on the Massive Multiplayer level.  It's a lot of trial and error.

[Archbaron]

I'd eventually like to see shops that belong to Great Houses to be stocked with things that the crafters in those Houses make and set in specified bins, to create a rather dynamic, realistic economy based on resources. Of course, this code would have to be heavily-set with rules and safeguards from abuse and negligence.