What is Rich?

[Tisiphone]

There is always a divide between the old money and the new money.  Someone who is say a noble or a templar might lose sight of the value of cold hard obsidian money in favor of social standings, holdings (i.e. properties, slaves), and political influence.

This becomes significantly less likely if you have enough to make up the difference. If you're offering Templar Hard Nose FIFTY TIMES AS MUCH 'sid - you know, regularly sinking 20k into his Nenyuk account - that evens things out a little.

If you have that much money to burn regularly I don't think anyone would question if you were rich or not.

If you have that much money to burn ONCE most people would agree you were rich, but I was simply making a point.

[Spoon]

I'd like to see militia in both cities cracking down on rich commoners who have no actual power or influence.

Pay them even less to force them into taking bribes and extorting! LIKE IT SHOULD BE!

[Gimfalisette]

Pay them even less to force them into taking bribes and extorting! LIKE IT SHOULD BE!

You're probably wildly overestimating how much soldiers are currently paid. Really, it's not the fault of the militia in either city-state that they don't take bribes; for the most part, PCs do not offer them, and attempts to extort get thwarted by third parties.

[Spoon]

Awww. I got my PC elf in Tuluk fined for having flashpowder in his pack by a dwarf in the Sun Legions once.

It was great. The dwarf didn't even TRY to make it look like it was actually mine. IT WAS AWESOME!

But that's never happened again. Someone needs to cram some corruption into these soldiers! You're not combat clans, you're BENT COPPERS!


(I'm aware of the fact you could call the Arm/Sun Legions combat clans, I just mean there's more to it)


So hurry up and mug some spam crafters.

[X-D]

Every militia/legion PC I ever had could be bribed, even the HG's.

Sadly, very few even try. Something like 1 of 30 criminals.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Every militia/legion PC I ever had could be bribed, even the HG's.

Sadly, very few even try. Something like 1 of 30 criminals.

Bribes fuel the whole political scene, but I'm willing to bet people let real-world attitudes influence their PCs actions here.  They're probably afraid that offering a bribe would be insulting or just make the situation worse, as it would in many (of course, not all) cases with modern law enforcement agencies.  But, that's the thing: these aren't modern law enforcement agencies.  Templars extort 'sids and accept bribes, and I'm sure no Militia or Legion PC is going to be too badly reprimanded for doing the same (on a much smaller scale, of course).  I say, go for it.

[Tisiphone]

Bribes are -expected-. NOT offering a bribe is an insult. I've seen at least one character die for not doing so.

[Gimfalisette]

Every militia/legion PC I ever had could be bribed, even the HG's.

Sadly, very few even try. Something like 1 of 30 criminals.

Ditto, and absolutely correct.

I'm sure no Militia or Legion PC is going to be too badly reprimanded for doing the same (on a much smaller scale, of course).  I say, go for it.

It really depends. If you want to find out how things actually play out, YOU go for it. I've already been there, done that I'll just say in brief: As a soldier, you will never make a living on bribes or extortion, as the game is currently played by both those you are extorting and those in authority over you. It's a very sad case of the awesome documentation being totally not followed by the playerbase as a whole.

[staggerlee]

I can say from personal experience that bribing guards is awesome and has great results.   

In my dream world, the law would be only laxly enforced until someone started throwing money around.  Actually, it may already be a bit like that in game, depending on the players and events involved.

[NoteworthyFellow]

Bribes are -expected-. NOT offering a bribe is an insult. I've seen at least one character die for not doing so.

I've had at least one character die for not offering a bribe.  I was oddly okay with it, so like I said, bribe harder, everyone!

It's a very sad case of the awesome documentation being totally not followed by the playerbase as a whole.

Just another in a long line, really.  It's not game-ruining, of course, just a little disappointing.

[Ueda]

Every militia/legion PC I ever had could be bribed, even the HG's.

Sadly, very few even try. Something like 1 of 30 criminals.

  They're probably afraid that offering a bribe would be insulting

My PC's never offer bribe because they think it would be insulting to the templarate... This isn't because I don't think they'd accept my bribe I just only could bribe them with the shirt off my back or MAYBE my pants, but I don't like not having pants.  Sometimes I might have boots or a few 'sids.

Groveling, you say to the cruel templar,in sirihish
     "Please don't kill me, you can have my cloths!"

[Gimfalisette]

If you don't have the bribe today, promise you will get the authority figure X coins within Y weeks. (Say, 100 coins in 2 Zalanthan weeks.) Then, make good on your promise. The authority figure will like you for the bribe, and also for the fact that they didn't have to hunt you down and kill you.

Really, bribes can be a lot of things, not just coins. Be creative. BRIBE MORE.

[Tarx]

Bribes are -expected-. NOT offering a bribe is an insult. I've seen at least one character die for not doing so.

This goes across all levels of the spectrum.  Bribes are never insulting.  You just have to do it the right way.  If you go in with the attitude (even in Allanak) that you can simply throw sid at a problem and make it go away without at least paying lip service at the same time, your bribe CAN be taken the wrong way.

Either way, it will be taken, so why not bribe?

[Dalmeth]

Does anyone else here get the impression that the system is somewhat against bribery?  I find that the tightly regimented armies that almost every aspect of civilization employs restricts the perception of bribality?  I mean, why do soldiers even take bribes now?  Because this is a game.  Bribery is fun.  However, what material good does extra money do for a soldier?  They can buy more drinks at the taverns?  They can buy that extra pretty axe that their lives are absolutely hollow without?  What else can they do? Can they even use their position to guarantee themselves a decent place to live?  They're expected to report back to a barracks every day and are under the constant supervision of a superior officer without whom, they are powerless to act.

I'd suggest a more disorganized system whereby those admitted to a law enforcement agency are expected to act professionally from the start.  Not only are they expected to enforce the law, but keep the peace.  This doesn't always mean following the law to the letter, because the world at large is much less under control.  You simply don't have enough people to send the law into every dark corner.  A law enforcement officer squeezes one direction, some criminal runs another, maybe kills a few people in the process or tries to overthrow your authority.  So long as they're paying you to keep off their backs, you at least have some dialog with them, and with that, you have some control.  It's time to stop thinking of bribery as corruption and more of a method of control, as getting the people who aren't going to go by the letter of the law working with you.  Unfortunately, most law enforcement types simply don't have the authority to establish that sort of relationship.

I'm kind of eager to see how the Watchers of Basal will turn out.  Depending on how they're controlled and organized, they may turn out to be tons more fun.  Just imagine getting a bribe that lets you get into a slightly higher, much larger home on the level you're currently on, or maybe  you get some money that lets a deal go down that makes you a much richer man for letting a smuggler get a few items in.  I think it's going to be a lot more fun when the law enforcement officials are given the power to be political players in their own authority.

[Southie]

PCs definitely do not bribe enough, and often it makes their lives much harder.

Consider this scenario: you get arrested by PC militia for a petty crime like theft or illegal weapons sales, or for having contraband. As long as the templars aren't actively hunting you, they probably don't care if you're brought before them or not. The soldier is going to do his job unless you give him a reason not to, though. If you offer a small bribe (100-300 sid, depending on the crime), you might get off free before a templar even knows you exist.

Not having templars know you exist is a good thing. It's a very significant power that soldiers have. They can catch you doing something even MILDLY illegal and extort a bribe over it by threatening to tell a templar if you don't pay up. That tactic works even if you're somebody like a noble's aide, because what aide wants their noble knowing about their moonlighting as a burglar? What noble wants their aide known as a thief? The trick for soldiers is catching the people who can be extorted into giving a bribe, and then impressing upon them that they should.


Lets say you do get brought before the templar. I'll let you in on a secret: executions take time and effort, and depending on how busy the templar is or how lazy he is that day, he may not be overly excited for MOOORE BLOOOOD. (If he is, sorry, you picked the wrong templar. Welcome to Armageddon.)

In this case, you're bribing a templar, so you better offer a bit more, but in most cases, the templar will happily take your money and leave you alive so you can get caught again and bribe him again.

On the other hand, insisting to the templar/soldier you're innocent, or giving him attitude, or taking the "Well I'm gonna die anyway so FUCK YOU" attitude are all great ways to die even when a relatively small bribe would have got you off. People need to better understand the 'game' between the law and criminals. It's not really about justice or who is 'right', it's more about acknowledging the law has the power and should be rewarded for it.

[Dalmeth]

PCs definitely do not bribe enough, and often it makes their lives much harder.

Consider this scenario: you get arrested by PC militia for a petty crime like theft or illegal weapons sales, or for having contraband. As long as the templars aren't actively hunting you, they probably don't care if you're brought before them or not. The soldier is going to do his job unless you give him a reason not to, though. If you offer a small bribe (100-300 sid, depending on the crime), you might get off free before a templar even knows you exist.

Not having templars know you exist is a good thing. It's a very significant power that soldiers have. They can catch you doing something even MILDLY illegal and extort a bribe over it by threatening to tell a templar if you don't pay up. That tactic works even if you're somebody like a noble's aide, because what aide wants their noble knowing about their moonlighting as a burglar? What noble wants their aide known as a thief? The trick for soldiers is catching the people who can be extorted into giving a bribe, and then impressing upon them that they should.

I'm sorry, but the ability to circumvent the law you are mentioning here is rather flimsy.  It's only the sort of thing that would happen very rarely, as many of the events you speak of are covered by the criminal code.  Now, if the enforcers were given the ability to process criminals and carry out punishments within a certain range, then we might have something, but for now, they're just muscle.  The templar and lackey formation just isn't very flexible.

On the other hand, insisting to the templar/soldier you're innocent, or giving him attitude, or taking the "Well I'm gonna die anyway so FUCK YOU" attitude are all great ways to die even when a relatively small bribe would have got you off. People need to better understand the 'game' between the law and criminals. It's not really about justice or who is 'right', it's more about acknowledging the law has the power and should be rewarded for it.

Now this part I can't stress enough.  Having played a law enforcement character before, I've killed people who insisted on not cooperating.  Remember folks, you have no rights.  Your relationship with the the law is equivalent with your relationship to the law enforcement officer standing in front of you.  Let them know they're in control, and trust me, they are, and they will be fairly lenient with you.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I'd suggest a more disorganized system whereby those admitted to a law enforcement agency are expected to act professionally from the start.  Not only are they expected to enforce the law, but keep the peace.  This doesn't always mean following the law to the letter, because the world at large is much less under control.  You simply don't have enough people to send the law into every dark corner.  A law enforcement officer squeezes one direction, some criminal runs another, maybe kills a few people in the process or tries to overthrow your authority.  So long as they're paying you to keep off their backs, you at least have some dialog with them, and with that, you have some control.  It's time to stop thinking of bribery as corruption and more of a method of control, as getting the people who aren't going to go by the letter of the law working with you.  Unfortunately, most law enforcement types simply don't have the authority to establish that sort of relationship.

I'm kind of eager to see how the Watchers of Basal will turn out.  Depending on how they're controlled and organized, they may turn out to be tons more fun.  Just imagine getting a bribe that lets you get into a slightly higher, much larger home on the level you're currently on, or maybe  you get some money that lets a deal go down that makes you a much richer man for letting a smuggler get a few items in.  I think it's going to be a lot more fun when the law enforcement officials are given the power to be political players in their own authority.

I'm gonna give this a big "hell yeah."

I'd love if law enforcement was less of a rank-and-file military organization, where they are all organized and working together all the time, into a less centralized system.  Obviously there has to be some center, but if each arm of the beast has some autonomy, keeping the peace becomes more important than enforcing the law.  I love the idea that accepting bribes lets you keep the briber under some sort of control.  Corruption isn't always "evil" or "selfish"--sometimes, it really is the best way to go about things.

This is only really true with the big sort of criminals.  Some person or some organization that is truly dangerous would be foolish to simply run down when subtler means can be used, causing much less noise to likely greater effect.  Your average pickpocket probably wouldn't be worth worrying about (and thus could simply "circumvent" the law through bribery), but something equivalent to, say, The Guild would be most effectively controlled this way.

[FiveDisgruntledMonkeysWit]

To give a specific number, I'd say that 1000 'sid is more money than most commoners would ever see in one place. I've always had all of my characters react to 1000 'sids or more as a -lot- of friggin' money. 1000 'sid = $100,000 American, perhaps? I think it's a fair comparison. Many people earn 100,000 bucks over the course of their lifetime, but very few see that amount lining their briefcase. If you make deals in 'large' rather than 'small', the average grebber will probably see you as very wealthy.

[jstorrie]

I would say the general rule-of-thumb for new players is that in the major cities, and the mercantile outposts, the socially acceptable way to bribe your way out of most arrests is to apologize for wasting Authority Figure Jim's time and offer to compensate him for it.

Of course, many commoners, having never got in trouble, will be pretty awkward with their first bribes. And this is perfectly cool.

[Gimfalisette]

I send kudos for bribes. You want kudos? BRIBE MORE.

[Mood]

I send kudos for bribes. You want kudos? BRIBE MORE.

I never got any kudos for bribing you.

[jcljules]

I send kudos for bribes. You want kudos? BRIBE MORE.

Wait... bribe you with real money for Kudos, or bribe guards in game for Kudos?? 

[Gimfalisette]

I send kudos for bribes. You want kudos? BRIBE MORE.

Wait... bribe you with real money for Kudos, or bribe guards in game for Kudos?? 

Exactly!

Actually what I meant was that doing bribery is good game play. I really have sent kudos to people in the past for things like playing a great torture victim, or playing the corruption side of things, and whatnot. It just always impresses me when I see that, rather than seeing the much more frequent, "I may be a thieving elf, but screw you, Mr. Templar!" attitude.

[NoteworthyFellow]

I send kudos for bribes. You want kudos? BRIBE MORE.

Wait... bribe you with real money for Kudos, or bribe guards in game for Kudos?? 

Exactly!

Actually what I meant was that doing bribery is good game play. I really have sent kudos to people in the past for things like playing a great torture victim, or playing the corruption side of things, and whatnot. It just always impresses me when I see that, rather than seeing the much more frequent, "I may be a thieving elf, but screw you, Mr. Templar!" attitude.

Y'know, this is a whole 'nother discussion for a whole 'nother thread, and I think I'll go ahead and make that thread, because it's a discussion I'd love to have.

[jcljules]

Being rich is the ability to drink one's milkshake, or a milkshake of another, using a straw that reaches acrooooooss the room.

I just caught the There Will be Blood reference