IC vs OOC

[staggerlee]

it seems out of character for my character to join a merchant house

You should avoid doing things that are OOC at all costs. That includes ignoring people who tell you otherwise.

I would respectfully disagree. I wouldn't normally jump on this, but I see the topic as more broadly, "How do I interact with my character?" so this is somewhat on topic.

The line between IC and OOC motivation is a lot softer than this statement would make it seem. The simple truth is that people change, even drastically, even rapidly, due to various stimuli, and that the argument that things should never be done for OOC reasons oftentimes undercuts this change.

Further (now for the argument of use, eh?) this is a game. If you aren't enjoying your character, then you're doing it wrong. Storing is itself an OOC action that affects the life of the character.

I've been thinking about this problem for a while. My conclusion is  much the same.   I've really come to believe that there is absolutely no clear distinction between ic and ooc.  In my brief flirtation with mmorpgs, everything was ooc, and I found it made things much simpler and clearer.

Much as I hate to say it, I think a lot of grudges and feuds in the game are ooc as much as ic.  Even when I start out saying a rivalry is in good fun and supposed to entertain both of us, if I hold it for long enough there are inevitably moments of intense frustration and annoyance with the other person.  I've had enemies in game I absolutely respected, but I've also had enemies that  really frustrated me ooc. And even with the enemies I respect there'd be those reflexive moments of anger now and then.

Furthermore your character's ic goals seem to exist in a very fuzzy place between being driven by their motivations, and your desire to see them accomplished. All of their actions inevitably have as much to do with what you want ooc as what they want.  If I come into the game tired and grumpy, the odds of my character getting pissed off at something that seems "totally ic and appropriate" go up dramatically, and if I come in to a situation fresh and relaxed it's more likely that my character will handle things well.

The problem as I see it, seems to be that you can't ever 100% differentiate between your motivations and your character's.  There's always going to be cross over, and that fact kind of discourages me from playing.  I'd like to be able to say "it's a communal writing project, it doesn't matter if my character prospers, so long as the story continues."  But I can't consistently play that way, and I'm not sure very many other people do either.  That narcissism is what makes the game a "game" but it also ruins it for me as a story or roleplaying project sometimes.

I can be extremely objective and allow terrible things to happen to my characters, even cause them to, and understand their place in the world. It is possible to consider it all from a meta level and be less involved in them.  But the longer I have a character and the more often I play them the harder it gets. 

So I suppose my question is, does anyone else have discomfort with the strict dichotomy constructed around ic and ooc, and how do you deal with?

[Fathi]

I think a lot of problems in this regard could be solved if people took a step back from their PCs and their roleplay and considered they might be taking things too personally.

I know Armageddon is an intense, emotionally-involved game that goes beyond merely playing make believe for a lot of people. And hey--it's okay to get emotionally involved, to an extent. It's okay to be frustrated, amused, scared, awed, and entertained by the complexity of the game and the situations that befall our characters. And as a player, sometimes things in the game frustrate, amuse, scare, awe, and entertain me on an OOC level, too.

But a sleight against your character is not a sleight against you.

Conversely, if somebody has to do something for an OOC reason [like Maso's thread about logging off], I think it's particularly awful RP to give them shit about it ICly.

Every player who does the above--you're unnecessarily blurring the lines between our characters' lives and our own.

Don't punish a character for the player's playtime constraints, unexpected problems, bugs, linkdeadedness, newbiness, and mistakes.

Likewise, don't hold a grudge against a player for their character's duplicity, personality, and IC actions. Let your character respond to all that.

[Tisiphone]

I agree with everything Fathi said. Where I was quoted above, I was considering primarily that IC changes in drive for a character (personality, circumstance, etc.) can be OOC-driven while easily maintaining IC consistency.

[Gimfalisette]

But a sleight against your character is not a sleight against you.

Personally, I miss hearing Fathi's character make fun of that one dead character of mine. Good times

The problem as I see it, seems to be that you can't ever 100% differentiate between your motivations and your character's.  There's always going to be cross over, and that fact kind of discourages me from playing.  I'd like to be able to say "it's a communal writing project, it doesn't matter if my character prospers, so long as the story continues."  But I can't consistently play that way, and I'm not sure very many other people do either.  That narcissism is what makes the game a "game" but it also ruins it for me as a story or roleplaying project sometimes.

Are you assuming that a "game" is a zero-sum activity? A lot of people do. I don't, myself; I see games as cooperative efforts that should result in greater communication/closeness between the players and fun for all. Although I like winning, I don't actually play to win. RL example: Every time I play Risk with my husband, I fully kick his ass; but I don't actually like the game and never want to play it. Winning is not my highest good, and self-service is not my highest good either.

About IC vs OOC specifically, the declaration that "You must stay IC 100% at all times" kind of amuses me. I OOCly picked my character's name, age, gender, race, birthplace, guild, subguild, etc etc etc...So I feel fully justified in making changes to my character that please me OOCly. I can change IC to suit my OOC goals. And I can feel fine about other people doing the same.

[Zoltan]

Many of my characters I designed to have glaring personality defects. Or, at least things -I- consider defects: family issues, emotional instability, drug addiction, low self esteem, narcisism, etc, etc. I usually find these limitations enjoyable, and that they help me play in line to the documentation. For example, playing a forceful, intelligent PC might cause me to take them down a more unique path, out of line with the game's documentation.

I can maybe think of one time that one of my character's problems (and the limitations I put in place to make those problems more difficult) actually really bothered me on an OOC level. I was sad because I loved the character and the concept, but frankly, it was pissing me off playing an irritating weakling over and over again. It seemed clear to me what the totally IC thing for that PC to do was, but for my own enjoyment, I just couldn't do it. So, I bit the bullet and made a slight tweaking to the character.

Maybe I take staying IC a little too seriously, considering that I was bugged so much about making a slight OOC-driven change to that PC. But -that's- what makes this game so awesome. I can conjure up some character, another person, and try to breath life into them. I can look at things from a different point of view, and because I'm playing with actual people on the other end, get reactions immediately.

I daresay it's even a little therapeutic at times, laughing at the crap that happens to my PCs. There's not much that gets to me in my day-to-day life. In fact, though it's the hardest, this phase of my life is by far the happiest. But it's fun, and sometimes even enlightening to vicariously enjoy all the anger, pain, joy or whatever through my characters I write up.

[Riev]

Honestly, for me, if I have a character that lives long enough, he's still a part of me. If he gets pissed, I get pissed. If he gets scared, I get scared. Its vice-versa too.


And as far as -not- doing something in game that I feel I want to do OOC, I'll find a way to make it IC. For instance, if a dwarf has a focus of... crafting the worlds LARGEST necklace for a mekillot or something... joining the Byn is IC because you might want to be able to survive outside -long- enough to give it to the Mek.


Imagination. Its what I'm all about.

[jhunter]

The only times I have issues regarding IC vs OOC is when people use information attained OOCly as IC knowledge for their character. More specifically, when they find out information surrounding IC events that their character would never have known and use that information to affect the outcome of things ICly.
The second IC vs OOC circumstance that I have issue with is when people find out who your pc is and because they have issues with you OOC, they suddenly make their character have issues with yours or start having their character behave erratically simply to satisfy their OOC need to mess with you, the player.

That one pisses me off more than anything actually. I've never had any of my pcs behave differently toward another pc because of who the player was behind them. I will admit that there were times I really -wanted- to, but I -never- acted on it.

Alot of the times I think there are cases where the line is a bit hazy, but I believe the two examples above are not some of those times.

[spicemustflow]

Sometimes when I interact with the killer of my previous char, I can't help but feeling a little antipathy towards the murderer depending on the circumstances. Of course, I don't act on it, knowing my current char has nothing to do with it, but now that you mention people who take OOC issues IC, I wonder if anybody was ever a victim of an obvious case of revenge from beyond the grave.

[Tisiphone]

Sometimes when I interact with the killer of my previous char, I can't help but feeling a little antipathy towards the murderer depending on the circumstances. Of course, I don't act on it, knowing my current char has nothing to do with it, but now that you mention people who take OOC issues IC, I wonder if anybody was ever a victim of an obvious case of revenge from beyond the grave.

Yes. It happens more often than you think.

Then I report it to the imms, and they take care of it. With about 250 gortoks.

[Doppelganger]

To start with, you guys are more or less normal human beings. In other words, you are stupid and boring to hell. Don't feel offended, because with a single exception all my favorite modern authors, singers an actors are boring just like you. Their humble personas do not worth a moment of my time, but their art can keep me entertained for years. Likewise, average Zalanthan is far more entertaining than their player. Whenever you slip from your character and start being your usual ugly self, I feel robbed. When some of you play yourselves over and over again in every "character" you have, I feel irritated. It's like I've bought a book to find out that this time there will be no fantasy, but instead there are raw rumblings about author's new car, about his old gf, the dinner they had last week, his small penis and her sick liver. I don't give a fuck about him and I don't give a fuck about you. While, for whatever reason, Armageddon is known as RPI MUD, I think I have a right to ask you to keep your own pitiful RL characters outside the game as often as possible.

Now, I do agree that problems with destinction between IC and OOC come with excessive emotional involvement. But the thing is that emotional involvement has nothing to do with being IC. RPing any character other than yourself is intellectual rather than emotional task and requires concentration. See above to see how interested I am in your own personal feelings. Very little. Feelings of your characters, however, are of greater interest to me. And the more sane and sober player is, the better they are able to type out the madness and drunkedness of their character. If you, yourself, die and live instead of your character, you do a shitty job RPing, IMO.

As for staying IC 100%, yes it's impossible, due to various reasons, including the facts that RL is more important and that the gameworld is too imperfect. But that should not be an excuse to avoid trying. Leaving the game when you can't be IC is perfect, remaining in game while you can't be IC is your crime against humanity.

[Tisiphone]

To start with, you guys are more or less normal human beings. In other words, you are stupid and boring to hell. Don't feel offended, because with a single exception all my favorite modern authors, singers an actors are boring just like you. Their humble personas do not worth a moment of my time, but their art can keep me entertained for years. Likewise, average Zalanthan is far more entertaining than their player. Whenever you slip from your character and start being your usual ugly self, I feel robbed. When some of you play yourselves over and over again in every "character" you have, I feel irritated. It's like I've bought a book to find out that this time there will be no fantasy, but instead there are raw rumblings about author's new car, about his old gf, the dinner they had last week, his small penis and her sick liver. I don't give a fuck about him and I don't give a fuck about you. While, for whatever reason, Armageddon is known as RPI MUD, I think I have a right to ask you to keep your own pitiful RL characters outside the game as often as possible.

Now, I do agree that problems with destinction between IC and OOC come with excessive emotional involvement. But the thing is that emotional involvement has nothing to do with being IC. RPing any character other than yourself is intellectual rather than emotional task and requires concentration. See above to see how interested I am in your own personal feelings. Very little. Feelings of your characters, however, are of greater interest to me. And the more sane and sober player is, the better they are able to type out the madness and drunkedness of their character. If you, yourself, die and live instead of your character, you do a shitty job RPing, IMO.

As for staying IC 100%, yes it's impossible, due to various reasons, including the facts that RL is more important and that the gameworld is too imperfect. But that should not be an excuse to avoid trying. Leaving the game when you can't be IC is perfect, remaining in game while you can't be IC is your crime against humanity.

You should check out some of Mamet's plays; you might like them.

Edited for typo

[Zalanthan]

You should check out some of Mamot's plays; you might like them.

Mamot or Mamet?

[spicemustflow]

Sometimes when I interact with the killer of my previous char, I can't help but feeling a little antipathy towards the murderer depending on the circumstances. Of course, I don't act on it, knowing my current char has nothing to do with it, but now that you mention people who take OOC issues IC, I wonder if anybody was ever a victim of an obvious case of revenge from beyond the grave.

Yes. It happens more often than you think.

Then I report it to the imms, and they take care of it. With about 250 gortoks.

That is a pretty shitty factor to take into consideration when plotting some evil deed. Apparently arm has a strange playerbase. While some of them muse about whether it's fine to sap an animal, others twink beyond belief.

[Tisiphone]

The people on the GDB are not the entirety or even the majority of Arm's playerbase. However, don't mistake me - I said it happens more often than you think, not that it happens often. People who do that tend to get corrected. Nevertheless, I have seen someone carry an OOC vendetta through 5 different characters.

Fortunately, this type tends to be stupid, if you'll excuse the casting of a mold.

[Rhyden]

If my character is killed by someone, my OOC grudge is similar to someone who just beat me in chess. In fact, my last important character's murder was so well planned out and executed, I had to send a player kudos. Maybe I'm weird like that, but I love a good ending to my characters. Plus, it always beats the 'killed by NPC#33564' end. Which sucks.

[NoteworthyFellow]

If my character is killed by someone, my OOC grudge is similar to someone who just beat me in chess. In fact, my last important character's murder was so well planned out and executed, I had to send a player kudos. Maybe I'm weird like that, but I love a good ending to my characters. Plus, it always beats the 'killed by NPC#33564' end. Which sucks.

I definitely play Armageddon expecting to die, so if my death can be spectacular and/or really compelling, then that's just as deserving of player kudos as anything else.  Hell, sometimes I prefer a to die during an awesome situation like that, because it can only be downhill from there, right down the Shield Wall.   

[Mood]

Dying in a well-roleplayed scene > dying to a twink 'raider' or NPC.

[spicemustflow]

Also, say you happen to to have a valid IC reason to murder a certain PC (be it revenge, robbery, or simply a paid hit), and said PC is an important member of a clan that maybe carries an important plot on his back. Will the Imm that worked closely with the victim hunt you down like a dog?

Now, the limited experience I had in dealing with Imms was nothing but positive, but there are some scary stories around, about how they'll kill you if you cross their line (that's invisible to you as a player).

[Yam]

The imms will almost definitely not have a "grudge" like that against you. Although the people who are with the PC your PC murders (Like, say, Kadius) will probably try and hunt you down.

[spicemustflow]

The imms will almost definitely not have a "grudge" like that against you. Although the people who are with the PC your PC murders (Like, say, Kadius) will probably try and hunt you down.

And that would be perfectly reasonable and expected. Thanks for the answer, occasionally I stumble upon horror stories about imms whens searching the boards, and if it were true it would kill the game for me completely.

Probably just rants of people that hate to loose.

[NoteworthyFellow]

The imms will almost definitely not have a "grudge" like that against you. Although the people who are with the PC your PC murders (Like, say, Kadius) will probably try and hunt you down.

And that would be perfectly reasonable and expected. Thanks for the answer, occasionally I stumble upon horror stories about imms whens searching the boards, and if it were true it would kill the game for me completely.

Probably just rants of people that hate to loose.

I think people have a way of interpreting bad things happening in-game as being the fault of the staff, but that isn't always the case.  If it is, the staff have done it for the sake of the game and for the players' fun, and I can't help but feel like someone taking it personally is completely missing the point.  If an staff-animated NPC kills a PC, it's probably because something that PC did IC prompted the events that led to that NPC wanting to kill them, not because the staff has some sort of personal grudge against the player.

This is, of course, all only from my experience, but to be honest, if the staff "doesn't like" someone, it's probably because they're being a whiny rabble-rouser and always talking about how the staff "doesn't like" them.  Therefore, anything bad that happens in-game is automatically going to seem like some sort of grudge action on the part of the staff; really, objectivity goes out the window in situations like that.

[Is Friday]

You as a player can steer your character into a direction without them liking the idea, but having them forced for "various stupid reason" pretty easily. Brings life back to the think command.

[Barzalene]

I would be shocked if the staff were to bear a grudge or "hunt you down." Unless you were an idiot about it. For instance if you go ahead and kill merchant kadius with his npc guard in the room and you don't kill the guard... Kadius will find out you killed their merchant.
If you kill merchant Kadius in a private room with his guard standing outside, he's going to notice that merchant kadius never left the room he went into with you.

And yes, in that instance the imms running Kadius will hunt you down. Not because you crossed an invisible line in their plans, but the visible line of realistic details.