City Elves in Tuluk

[SMuz]

So, we actually send apps and questions to desert_elves@armageddon.org@armageddon.org, or shalooonsh@armageddon@armageddon.org?

[Nyr]

So, we actually send apps and questions to desert_elves@armageddon.org@armageddon.org, or shalooonsh@armageddon@armageddon.org?

Something was up with the way the email aliases were being transmitted on the clan information page.  I fixed the problem on the Akai Sjir links.

[Shalooonsh]

So, we actually send apps and questions to desert_elves@armageddon.org@armageddon.org, or shalooonsh@armageddon@armageddon.org?

My apologies, SMuz, I didn't look to see what you were referring to.  I assumed (wrongly) that your notice of an error was on the desert_elves part, not the @@@@@@@@@@ part.

Again reaffirming my need to invent an alarm clock/coffee maker/intravenous delivery system.

[Winterless]

Well, thank you, Looonshy, Nyr, and any other staff who worked on this. I think it will be fun, can't wait to try one out myself. It has all my favorite parts... Tuluk, tribals, tribals that are elves.

[Versu]

Where does it say people in Tuluk are jerks to elves? Whats with the racism? Are you guys serious? Elves in Tuluk should receive the same basic respect as humans and rudeness should be treated as such.

Aren't Rinthi's and UT's the real scum? Elves aren't slaves, certainly not the lowest of the low.

I think if you're rude to an elf in Tuluk, you deserve the worst. In everyones eyes.

[Riev]

Where does it say people in Tuluk are jerks to elves? Whats with the racism? Are you guys serious? Elves in Tuluk should receive the same basic respect as humans and rudeness should be treated as such.

Aren't Rinthi's and UT's the real scum? Elves aren't slaves, certainly not the lowest of the low.

I think if you're rude to an elf in Tuluk, you deserve the worst. In everyones eyes.

Trollfail is fail.

However, this new change that was instituted has really changed my outlook of elves. I may even help one that tripped on the road one day, if I really didn't care about my coinpouch.

[FantasyWriter]

Where does it say people in Tuluk are jerks to elves? Whats with the racism? Are you guys serious? Elves in Tuluk should receive the same basic respect as humans and rudeness should be treated as such.

Aren't Rinthi's and UT's the real scum? Elves aren't slaves, certainly not the lowest of the low.

I think if you're rude to an elf in Tuluk, you deserve the worst. In everyones eyes.

I honestly thought this was a joke post at first, but to answer your question:

Race Elf

Elves are the second most populous race on the face of Zalanthas, closely following humans. They are taller than humans--mostly standing between around 74 and 90 inches in height--and tend to have slim, light frames. Skin color ranges from nearly black to pale cream colors; hair is typically dark but shares a similar range of hues. Eye color among elves is a matter of extraordinary variability. Elven ears are always pointed, and their eyes always almond-shaped. There are two varieties of elves: city elves and desert elves.

City elves are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and have adapted to live by their wits. True to the nature of elves they also live by their quick fingers, and are usually avoided by the honest citizens of other races. Some city elves are members of tribes camped in some run- down space within its walls; others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all.

Desert elves are nearly always members of desert tribes, and wander freely about the wastes hunting for what they need. They tend to be darker in skin color than city elves, as well as leaner and more muscular, but not necessarily stronger. Elves are very long-limbed, and desert elves are runners by nature, capable of a prolonged run across most types of terrain.

The differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.

Roleplaying:

Descended from (or currently a member of) any one of the many desert tribes, all elves have a cultural bent towards wandering and thievery. Among elves, theft that relies on wit or nimble fingers is not a crime, per se, but more of a test of courage. Highly distrustful of all persons outside their immediate tribe, elves will often go to great lengths to test the trustworthiness of any companion. Due to their nature as runners, all elves find the riding of mounts (and usually, riding in wagons) to be an extremely shameful act--though a few can forgive the riding habits of other races. In other words, elves will never ride on mounts or in wagons, as to do so would be to insult one of the few things they are proud of: their natural speed and endurance on the run.

PS: My own opinion....
1) If you are not trying to rip off non-your-tribe elves, you're role playing an elf badly.
2) If you are trying to rip someone off, they have every right to be rude to you.

therefore:

If you are role playing an elf correctly, they have every right to be rude to you.

[Prodikus]

I have nothing against elves. I mean, they're greedy, thieving, murderous, shiftless, clannish and dull-witted.... and elves in Tuluk lack the common sense and decency to live out in the brush, where I don't have to smell them... but everyone in the Ivory City is just one big, happy family, thanks to the candy and unicorn filled sunshine rained down by His Glorious Light.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I... hate elves. In general. In Tuluk or out of Tuluk. But one thing that's really aggravating is to see some of the things I'm seeing from the perspective I'm seeing them in. I don't want to troll. So I won't. I think the newest clan in Tuluk is extremely well thought-out and very detailed. I lurve the immortal running the clan, but I don't see for shit why anyone would feel like they -should- trust an elf. Sorry, but if the second most populous group in the Known World all tend toward theivery.... I'm going to want to... not get ripped off. I might be polite on the surface or the places where they might find out. But that's so hard and so far from liking them that it's not even funny. Quick question, though... How many clanned c-elves are running around in Tuluk to the number of people in each GMH or in any given noble house? And especially in relation to the amount of people in Human Tribal clans. Good for the the changes to the game world. Good for the niche it's providing for people who like elves. Good for me. I've been driven to explore the possibility of playing mostly in areas outside Tuluk with future PCs unless I want to deal with loads of elves. Yeah, VNPC's.... great for them. But I'm not gonna feel shit for not interacting with your sharpear. You see all those NPC and VNPC sharpears I'm also not interacting with? That's because they're scum, too.

[Cutthroat]

Elves are widely known for being dirty scamming thieves, regardless of affiliation or origin. Everyone (even elves) know that elves lean towards stealing from anyone not in their tribe, including other elves. (Yes, even "Tuluki elves" can be hated on for this reason, whether or not they have a thief's license and if they are from a certain tribe.) Most people would avoid them or ridicule them unless they made themselves useful for something, in which case the average person would begrudgingly work with them and ensure they get the best deal they can possibly get from a thief.

[palomar]

I have nothing against elves. I mean, they're greedy, thieving, murderous, shiftless, clannish and dull-witted.... and elves in Tuluk lack the common sense and decency to live out in the brush, where I don't have to smell them... but everyone in the Ivory City is just one big, happy family, thanks to the candy and unicorn filled sunshine rained down by His Glorious Light.

I'm not sure what you're after but if it's the same old Tuluk bashing, take it somewhere else.

In my opinion, elves fit in very well in Tuluk society. They are "greedy, thieving, murderous, shiftless" in many cases, though I don't agree with dull-witted. As it happens, one can register (and the smart ones do) to be a legally operating thief and assassin in Tuluk, and it is considered an artform.

There is conflict in Tuluk. It usually happens below the surface (and I don't mean UnderTuluk only). Everyone in Tuluk knows that there is conflict, but they also see how organizations, races and various groups don't wage outright war against eachother. Subtlety isn't for every player and PC. It's worth giving a try, but if it isn't for you, there are many other options.

... but I don't see for shit why anyone would feel like they -should- trust an elf. Sorry, but if the second most populous group in the Known World all tend toward theivery.... I'm going to want to... not get ripped off.

Trust is and should be rare. Then again, you don't have to trust everyone. Actually if you do, you'll likely get ripped off, regardless of whether you deal with humans or elves. The coded c-elf tribe in Tuluk fills a function, which is evident from the activity and business it has seen since it was introduced. There are certain things that they do that are sought for, and they also hold an interesting social position in the city. They are still elves and should face the regular difficulties, and I believe they do. I simply think that if you're Commoner Malik from the Warrens, you don't try to bully a pretty strong tribe. If you come from outside Tuluk, meet one of these elves in a public spot and insult them openly, you'll get odd looks for more than one reason. That's Tuluki culture though, and nothing specific or unique to Tuluki elves.

I might be polite on the surface or the places where they might find out. But that's so hard and so far from liking them that it's not even funny.

You don't have to like them. Who said you should like elves?

Quick question, though... How many clanned c-elves are running around in Tuluk to the number of people in each GMH or in any given noble house? And especially in relation to the amount of people in Human Tribal clans. Good for the the changes to the game world. Good for the niche it's providing for people who like elves. Good for me. I've been driven to explore the possibility of playing mostly in areas outside Tuluk with future PCs unless I want to deal with loads of elves. Yeah, VNPC's.... great for them. But I'm not gonna feel shit for not interacting with your sharpear. You see all those NPC and VNPC sharpears I'm also not interacting with? That's because they're scum, too.

No idea how many, but I think they're fewer than you believe them to be. I'm not sure what your point is in the rest of that paragraph. But anyway, sometimes there's a load of half-elves running around. Sometimes it's half-giants. Another time it's city elves. Since elves are the second most populous race in Zalanthas, I can't see how it's much of a problem.

Elves are widely known for being dirty scamming thieves, regardless of affiliation or origin. Everyone (even elves) know that elves lean towards stealing from anyone not in their tribe, including other elves. (Yes, even "Tuluki elves" can be hated on for this reason, whether or not they have a thief's license and if they are from a certain tribe.) Most people would avoid them or ridicule them unless they made themselves useful for something, in which case the average person would begrudgingly work with them and ensure they get the best deal they can possibly get from a thief.

Yes, those are good points.

[Kankfly]

I'm going to play a poor schmuck who's going to fall for every trick in the book.

One day, one day.

[Is Friday]

On a celf a while ago in Tuluk she managed to convince a dirty southerner that was looking to kill someone that he could get a license legally through her for 500 sids--plus a finding fee. You can't get a license as a non-citizen.

... sucker.

[FantasyWriter]

And don't forget, said clan resided in the -poorest- part of the city proper.

You average PC in Tuluk works for either a Great Merchant House, A Noble House, or the Templarate.
So an every-day-joe human commoner is already lower in status than most PCs.  An every-day-joe elf would be even lower.


If you find being picked on, teased, harassed, spat on, rebuked, etc. undesirable, I would highly suggest you not playing an elf of any kind on Zalanthas.
Is elf a racial option in SoI? Pretty sure elves are the good guys there.

[Prodikus]

I have nothing against elves. I mean, they're greedy, thieving, murderous, shiftless, clannish and dull-witted.... and elves in Tuluk lack the common sense and decency to live out in the brush, where I don't have to smell them... but everyone in the Ivory City is just one big, happy family, thanks to the candy and unicorn filled sunshine rained down by His Glorious Light.

I'm not sure what you're after but if it's the same old Tuluk bashing, take it somewhere else.

In my opinion, elves fit in very well in Tuluk society. They are "greedy, thieving, murderous, shiftless" in many cases, though I don't agree with dull-witted. As it happens, one can register (and the smart ones do) to be a legally operating thief and assassin in Tuluk, and it is considered an artform.

There is conflict in Tuluk. It usually happens below the surface (and I don't mean UnderTuluk only). Everyone in Tuluk knows that there is conflict, but they also see how organizations, races and various groups don't wage outright war against eachother. Subtlety isn't for every player and PC. It's worth giving a try, but if it isn't for you, there are many other options.

Sarcasm, in response to the original post. Anyone who thinks Tuluk is the land of sunshine and love (as the suggestion of differential treatment for elves in Tuluk would imply) is, as you say, dead wrong.

The subtle racism of sneers, nose lifting and whispers are the sort of thing PC Tuluki c-elves should be used to by now, as it's the sort of thing they've lived with all their lives. I also think a little less-than-subtle racism (spitting, shit throwing, some physical abuse, etc.) isn't entirely out of bounds, as not everyone in Tuluk is cultured and well mannered.. especially in the Warrens, where most city elves live. Of course, if Commoner Amos punched Shifty McElf in the nose last week, and the McElf tribe finds him all alone in a dark alley...

And calling them dull-witted was an example of racism, as was calling them lazy (that's what shiftless means.) They are all of course greedy, stinking, murderous thieves... that's just a statement of fact.

[Synthesis]

And don't forget, said clan resided in the -poorest- part of the city proper.

You average PC in Tuluk works for either a Great Merchant House, A Noble House, or the Templarate.
So an every-day-joe human commoner is already lower in status than most PCs.  An every-day-joe elf would be even lower.


If you find being picked on, teased, harassed, spat on, rebuked, etc. undesirable, I would highly suggest you not playing an elf of any kind on Zalanthas.
Is elf a racial option in SoI? Pretty sure elves are the good guys there.

Well, you can play a desert-elf of any kind.  Chances are, nobody's going to tease or (verbally) harass you out in your backyard, and if they do, you wouldn't be able to understand what the hell they were saying, anyway.  (Meanwhile, you'd be hanging around as much as possible in the hope of magickally branching sirihish.)

But yeah, city-elves are an utter waste of time unless you have the stomach for keeping to the 'rinth or UnderTuluk.  Even then, you'd probably be better off all-around playing a human or dwarf.

[Jingo]

There's no problem with distrusting and disliking elves. Though, I tend to notice that these things often get taken to the extreme by some players.

Sometimes I see players take it upon themselves to kick an elf out of a tavern just for sitting at the bar. Or even threaten to kill them if they see them again.

But as far as I can tell, they can get away with it becuase I still really don't know what place elves have in society. Are they integrated with the rest of Tuluki society or are the completely ghettoized? Are they even considered to be citizens by most folk in the city? Much of the interaction I see leads me to believe that elves are neither integrated nor considered citizens.

Personally, I don't think elves should be treated well. But I do think they should be treated better, U.T.'s, 'rinthers and any other non-citizens.

[AmandaGreathouse]

Personally, I don't think elves should be treated well. But I do think they should be treated better, U.T.'s, 'rinthers and any other non-citizens.

Agreed, but with the exception of GMH members or very wealthy merchants. Just because they'd have more clout and respect than your average commoner anyhow and would likely have strong ties in both city-states.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Where does it say people in Tuluk are jerks to elves? Whats with the racism? Are you guys serious? Elves in Tuluk should receive the same basic respect as humans and rudeness should be treated as such.

Aren't Rinthi's and UT's the real scum? Elves aren't slaves, certainly not the lowest of the low.

I think if you're rude to an elf in Tuluk, you deserve the worst. In everyones eyes.

Heh.

Elves are shit. They will always be shit. Nothing will change that. People in Tuluk think elves are shit. People in Allanak think elves are shit. People in the wastes think elves are shit. Elves are shit.

This ain't LotR.

Rinthers and UTers are also shit, but potentially better shit than that commoner elf shit I know. Rinther and UTer elves should all be killed right this moment. Rinther and UTer elves are shit's shit.

[Thorg]

It is unfortunate that certain posts in this thread drip with contempt for other players and their activities IC, but I guess it can't be avoided in smoothing out unpleasantness.

Elves are the second most populous race in the known world, perhaps this percentage doesn't carry over into cities but they're more common than dwarves and half giants inside city walls, for sake of argument. A big point here seems to be that Elves should be stealing willy nilly from anyone outside of their clans. Now an elf given to pickpocketing, and thus has learnt the way of a pickpocket from a family given to that sort of activity would definitely test themselves by stealing from non-tribe members.

This is not the only way in which elves test themselves (what non-elves would label as "stealing"), let's hit up a quote from the racial roleplay helpfile (http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/elven.html):

Con-artists of any sort are thieves. Muggers are thieves, albeit less subtle ones. Even traders are thieves - indeed, many elves consider trading to be just a sophisticated form of theft.

It's important not to get hung up on what a "thief" is and what the definition of "robbery" is. To elves, any activity tests their mettle against a non-tribe member and comes out on top in an underhanded way is considered "robbery" - the expert elven burglar doesn't steal from the warrens because there's no challenge there - she goes further afield in order to test herself fully. The elven merchant doesn't rest on their laurels, they are continuously challenging themselves by trying to worm the best deal from non-tribe members. After all, why do we call a shrewd businessman a "crook"?

The prescribed behaviour most people seem to subscribe to for an elf is to be constantly pickpocketing and burglarising everyone and anything and living in UT or the 'rinth. This isn't fun and will get nobody, let alone a race, anywhere. It isn't what the docs want either.

The crux of the argument comes down to the Akai Sjir (clan outline found here: http://www.armageddon.org/ic/), a tribe of city elves who pride themselves on their stonework (there's that magic word again, pride) and are described as "outspoken and social". Elves aren't stupid thieving machines and are just as able to control their desire to challenge themselves ("steal") as any human is able to control their curiosity - to an extent. So this tribe probably gets its rocks off (heh) to furthering their art and trade and get their prescription of elfing through bartering, trade and social poising - the famous Tuluki passtime.

Also a comment was made about the tribe's numbers - I believe full blooded family members are managed by e-mailing the clan address and are handled in the same way as human tribals re: ensuring balance in numbers. Something mentioned in the clan description is that they have been known to accept outsiders into the fold, meaning they are perhaps unusual compared to the hiring policies of other clans.

And just so I'm understood - I wholeheartedly support anger against elves IC, I support them having to work especially hard to get Tuluki respect (not just on the surface) and if someone is playing an elf they expect to be treated that way. What I am posting here about is to prevent OOC prejudices building.

I also freely admit that there's an awkwardness with their sudden appearance that might lead people to believe they have no history and are new arrivals in His Ivory, something that is untrue IC, but requires a certain admission from the playerbase to allow integration.

A lot of words, sorry. Felt like ranting.

[Old Kank]

There's no problem with distrusting and disliking elves. Though, I tend to notice that these things often get taken to the extreme by some players.

Sometimes I see players take it upon themselves to kick an elf out of a tavern just for sitting at the bar. Or even threaten to kill them if they see them again.

What's your character's frame of reference for treating elves like shit?  If your character is an "honest citizen," sure, avoid elves.  But, I'd say a vast majority of the human and dwarven PCs in the game will rob, murder and betray anyone if it benefits them and they can get away with it.  I've seen PCs knock frail old ladies down to loot their bosses corpse, walk off with anything of value that gets left alone for thirty seconds, and lie through both corners of their mouths to make a coin... and those are just the PCs that don't have the hide and steal skills.

Why, then, is it so terrible when elves do it?  Dislike and distrust 'em all you want, it's great, but how is that elf different from the other people your character knows (and isn't trying to kick out of a tavern)?  It seems like a pretty weak excuse to try and shoe-horn some conflict into the game, and mostly all it's done is made independent city elves an unplayable option.

I think for most human PCs, racism against elves should stem more from human insecurities and less because they're thieving bastards.  Society in the two city-states is based on a notion of "the nobility is better than everyone else," and all the top social tiers are exclusively human.  So, I think the mentality trickling down from that should be that elves are a lesser race because, all else being equal, the nobility and the law will side with humans over elves.  Elves have historically worked for almost any clan that doesn't cater exclusively to nobility: Kurac, Salarr, the Byn, and various other groups, so the idea that they should be driven to the fringes of society is kind of silly.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I hope nobody thinks I'm judging anybody OOC for their IC play. That's not the point, nor is that what I'm doing.

But the prevailing attitude towards elves should be that they are shit. Point blank and simple. This doesn't mean that elves can't be dealt with, socialized with, or otherwise interacted with. But you are going to dicker price with an elf far more than a human, because YOU KNOW THEY ARE TRYING TO SCREW YOU OVER*. You are going to hire the human before the elf, because YOU KNOW THEY ARE GOING TO DO SOMETHING TO SCREW YOU OVER*. You will check your locks twice when an elf lives next door to you, because you KNOW THEY WILL BREAK IN*. You might not double-check a report from your highest ranking human or dwarf, but you will double and triple check your elf's claims, because you KNOW THEY ARE PROBABLY LYING, TO SCREW YOU OVER*. You may really appreciate that human's friendship, but that elf's is going to be viewed as come and go at best, because you KNOW THAT ELVES WILL SCREW YOU OVER SOONER OR LATER*. When your sword goes missing, you are going to look at the nearest elf first, because you KNOW THAT THEY ARE TRYING TO SCREW YOU OVER*. When you come across that elf in the desert, whereas you might help the human in distress, you might go on and ride shy of the elf with the broken legs, because you KNOW THAT ELF IS GOING TO SCREW YOU OVER*. When you buy something from an elf, you will pay as little as you can, because it's got to be cheap; after all, ELVES WILL ALWAYS TRY TO SCREW YOU OVER*.

* View may not reflect reality. But it's an elf.

I think that trying to kick elves out of a common tavern isn't overly bright, and wouldn't be the prevailing choice of racism, in either city, but you color everything you do with, or for, or because of, or to an elf, with the view that they are untrustworthy. It should color your opinion as much as the fact that half-giants are dumb colors your interactions with them. Certain folks are free to think differently than this, because of RP and IC reasons, and that's fine. But when someone asks how elves should be commonly treated, the above examples of interaction are a good primer.

[Dar]

Last time I played a celf, he was very employable. He was a simple low skilled merchant, but he got plenty interaction. The difference? The difference is when cornered by a templar, my elf asked how my elf can be of service to him. And instead of asking for pretty color silks, or nice weapons, the templar went straight to business ... poisons, information, etc. My elf didnt commit a single crime in his life, but ... he was an elf. I find the elven stigma to be awesome. Treat elves the way you think best, if they're useful ... treat them in a way that would keep thme useful without making yourself a joke infront of others. If they're not, then fuck 'em, make fun of them in order to be liked by the others.

[Thorg]

I hope nobody thinks I'm judging anybody OOC for their IC play. That's not the point, nor is that what I'm doing.

But the prevailing attitude towards elves should be that they are shit. Point blank and simple. This doesn't mean that elves can't be dealt with, socialized with, or otherwise interacted with. But you are going to dicker price with an elf far more than a human, because YOU KNOW THEY ARE TRYING TO SCREW YOU OVER*. You are going to hire the human before the elf, because YOU KNOW THEY ARE GOING TO DO SOMETHING TO SCREW YOU OVER*. You will check your locks twice when an elf lives next door to you, because you KNOW THEY WILL BREAK IN*. You might not double-check a report from your highest ranking human or dwarf, but you will double and triple check your elf's claims, because you KNOW THEY ARE PROBABLY LYING, TO SCREW YOU OVER*. You may really appreciate that human's friendship, but that elf's is going to be viewed as come and go at best, because you KNOW THAT ELVES WILL SCREW YOU OVER SOONER OR LATER*. When your sword goes missing, you are going to look at the nearest elf first, because you KNOW THAT THEY ARE TRYING TO SCREW YOU OVER*. When you come across that elf in the desert, whereas you might help the human in distress, you might go on and ride shy of the elf with the broken legs, because you KNOW THAT ELF IS GOING TO SCREW YOU OVER*. When you buy something from an elf, you will pay as little as you can, because it's got to be cheap; after all, ELVES WILL ALWAYS TRY TO SCREW YOU OVER*.

* View may not reflect reality. But it's an elf.

I think that trying to kick elves out of a common tavern isn't overly bright, and wouldn't be the prevailing choice of racism, in either city, but you color everything you do with, or for, or because of, or to an elf, with the view that they are untrustworthy. It should color your opinion as much as the fact that half-giants are dumb colors your interactions with them. Certain folks are free to think differently than this, because of RP and IC reasons, and that's fine. But when someone asks how elves should be commonly treated, the above examples of interaction are a good primer.

This is exactly what city elf players should love! It's the prevailing attitude among those who feel, nay, KNOW that if they let their guard down they'll be taken advantage of, and know they can't afford that loss. This might not be everyone however...

My ranting and raging isn't about people hating on elves, bring on the hate, give them something to struggle against and work amidst. My trouble is the background murmuring that elves are not viable and can never, ever, evereverever interact with anyone else outside of sneak n;peek man;steal coins man. That all elves should be limited in class, aspirations and activity around bog-standard pocket-filching.

Mercantile elves are definitely out to rip you off (if you are non-tribe or non-trusted) if you are considered a challenge to them. An elf isn't going to spam-wrangle everyone out of coins any more than they're going to steal from a blind person repeatedly - there's no pride in that, no challenge and thus little interest in it.

[Grey Area]

Elves are, at best, second-class citizens everywhere.

The difference in Tuluk is that even non-human Artisans can draw a measure of respect for their work, while still being treated with nothing but contempt for their race.

"Oh, isn't this a delightfully embroidered cloak! Who is it by? Diavellis - that elven master tailor? Oh, well, yes of course. I certainly see the influence of his heritage in his choice of dyes... It's fine work, though, and I'm sure you did your best to obtain a human mastercraftsman."

Also, what constitutes 'art' can cover a rather wide range of activites.