Who should -not- join the Byn

[Lizzie]

You know what, I'm done trying to defend myself in this thread. You all want to go on and continue twisting my words, interpreting things I didn't say, and attacking my opinion have at it. Obviously the Tzai Byn is the sacred cow of the Armageddon players, and is always the most appropriate thing to recommend under any and all circumstances on the GDB, which is why you see so many people recommending it no matter what the player's interests are.

You are all right. I am wrong. And I will enjoy being wrong, and not join the Byn with any of my characters, and I will continue to recommend other clans when they seem to be more appropriate than the Byn in response to new players seeking advice. Because in my wrong, bad, incorrect, misguided opinion, the Byn is not the -most- appropriate answer to every new player's request for advice. Except I'll do it in PM from now on so none of you have to be subjected to my wrongness.

[X-D]

That is probly one of the saddest player stories I've ever heard Lizzie.

Also, I would not hesitate to say that the Byn is a far better option for a newbie thief and many other types of PCs then to go the underworld angle. Least if you played it right you might be able to go a long time without anybody suspecting your a thief.

Also, often the advice to join the byn is because many people consider it the real arm experiance. One that every player should have.

(Edit)
Wait a moment, you have never even had a Byn PC? Blinks. Then how can you even begin to say if it is right or wrong a good suggestion or not? Boggles.

[Marauder Moe]

I read a post about a guy who doesn't have much time to play, and wants to play a thief character, not just the code, but the character itself. Everyone was telling him to join the Byn. And I was thinking, WTF does the Byn have to do with learning how to be a thief?  *snip*

This thread?  The one where one person suggested he join the Byn, and only in the context of responding to his question about playtimes?  Gimf probably meant he should consider having a future character play the Byn.  Just because his first character is a thief doesn't mean he as a player only wants to play thieves.

Why didn't I join the Byn? Because my first character was a guild-merchant, with I think hunter subclass, and I wanted to be the kind of crafter who could skin her own hides and raw materials and become a trader. I didn't want to be a "fighter" type, I had no desire to get involved in barroom brawls, I wanted my character to be highly "civilized" polite with proper speaking and clean clothes, the type who would -hire- the Byn, not the type who would be a member. That was my initial goal in playing, and after reading the GDB (see, not the docs - the GDB) I discovered that Tuluk was probably the best place for that. I ended up hired by Salarr as an aide my first day playing, was instructed not to go out hunting without escort, my only escort got killed, and I stored the character when the NPC said I'd have to be transferred to Allanak when my boss was executed. The idea of being stuck in what I understood to be a place where only rangers could see at night, where there wasn't much to hunt unless you were already damned good at hunting, in a role where I knew I'd rarely have a chance to get out anyway, was so unattractive to me that I just stored and moved on.

And what makes you so special that you have the ability to, after reading the advice offered on the boards, make your own decision about what clan to join but other newbies can't?  Give them some credit.  I seriously seriously doubt there is a rash of newbie players getting duped into joining the Byn and then quitting the game because they didn't want to be in so much combat.  However, I believe there are a lot of players who come to this game and underestimate the value of clan membership, and wouldn't have known that it's a very good way to learn the game if someone hadn't suggested so on the GDB.

[LoD]

I thought, why is everyone telling this guy to join the Byn? Why not get into more "underworld" options instead, hang out where seedy types hang out and hope to get picked up by the less talked about clan(s)? At least that way he'll have a really good shot at having someone teach him, both code-wise and ICly, what it's like to BE a Zalanthan thief.

They are likely telling him to join the Byn for the same reason I imagine people tell bright-eyed, bushy-tailed 18 year olds that want to be snipers crawling around in jungles they need to go through boot camp like everyone else to learn how to survive.  Certain clans and occupations are fast paced and require a certain degree of patience or understanding in order to navigate them successfully.  Needless to say, many of them are not newbie-friendly and your thief would very likely be dead within 2 RL days instead of perhaps learning to survive Armageddon in a more newbie-friendly environment like the Byn.

You have to remember that people are responding with the BOTH the character's and player's best interests in mind.  What good is pointing the character toward a specialized, fast-paced, complicated clan or environment when they don't even have a good grasp of the game syntax, city dynamics, and all kinds of information that experienced players take for granted.  We already know how to emote, where to find water and food, how to use and improve our skills, and have identified the major organizations and players that we need to be cognizant of not to make a major mistake (i.e. Like telling a templar to stick it.)

New players don't come with that set of skills, regardless of what they want to play, and many people probably felt that the T'zai-Byn was a good learning environment for them, as a character, but more importantly as a PLAYER.  They were able to move through a slightly safer environment as they made their mistakes, so that instead of permadeath they received a less severe punishment or lesson at the hands of experienced players.  There are also many inexperienced players alongside you that can help your transition into the game because you don't feel like a duck out of water or completely lost alongside players that may or may not take the time to help you learn while they play out a scene.

IC and OOC considerations both contribute to suggestions players make, especially in an OOC forum like the GDB.  They are trying to steer the player toward an environment that's similar to a "boot camp" for people who are not yet ready to jump feet-first into a complicated and sensitive role within the game.  I wouldn't assume that players are throwing out, "Join the Byn" because they aren't reading into what the person wants to achieve, but because they are reading into the message they are sending.

And that message in this case was probably, "I am new to the game and I will die in 2 seconds if I try to survive in a den of actual cut-throats and brigands.  I have a real need as both a player and my character to learn about the game and my role simultaneously."  And for many people, the T'zai-Byn is where they learned -- so they suggest it.  Do you know what that says to me?  It says that many, many people are advocating the Byn because they feel it helped them accomplish what this new person now wants to accomplish. 

What better lip service can something get that unsolicited advertisement and encouragement?  The T'zai-Byn is an asset to the game, not the devil.

-LoD

[Krath]

Ok, Who cares Lizzie. If it is IC for your PC to join the Byn do it. And So what people throw the byn out there if people dont want to play a lot. They reason they probably do is because that is usually one of the biggest clans with the most wide spread playtimes. So it is likely that when they DO decide to log on they will have someone to rp with.  If their pc doesnt want to join then byn then dont. If they do and dont like it leave. Simple as that, there is no discussion that needs to be talked about.

[Ghost]

You know what, I'm done trying to defend myself in this thread. You all want to go on and continue twisting my words, interpreting things I didn't say, and attacking my opinion have at it.

I do not see much of an attacking an opinion as you word it.  My previous response might have come out as harsh, but then that is because your posts pretty much were worded as "This is how it is" rather than "This is how I think it is".

I read a post about a guy who doesn't have much time to play, and wants to play a thief character, not just the code, but the character itself. Everyone was telling him to join the Byn. And I was thinking, WTF does the Byn have to do with learning how to be a thief? And, in Allanak at least, if he does join the Byn, and his Sergeant is around to make sure he sticks with the schedule, and he only has an hour to play every day, that means he is -most- likely (compared with other clans), to have ONLY enough time to get to the tavern before he has to turn around and get back to sparring again. Leaving him with little to no time to actually try to "be" the thief he wants his character to be. Unless of course he tries stealing from his clannies, but if he's a clever thief, he'll know that you don't piss in your own back yard.

Having played in the said shady parts of the world with characters who lived considerably long time, I would suggest any thief player to first learn the game/gameworld and then move to those parts.  If I were a newbie today and someone suggested me to go to rinth, the experience I would receive in my first times would set me completely off balance to the game itself.  So still, given it is a newbie, I do not see how suggesting Byn to even a thief is any wrong.

[Gimfalisette]

What everyone else said. And...

The whole "social player" vs. "combat player" thing is a false distinction. Anyone who knows me, knows that I massively qualify as a "social player." And yet to say that I wouldn't ever want or need to know about combat, or wouldn't be successful in a combat role, or that the Byn wouldn't be "the right place"...that's all just plain not true.

There are many, many, many more places in ARM that are not right for new players, than there are which ARE right for newbies. I'd guess the Byn is "right" for at least 9 out of 10 newbies, for all the reasons laid out by posters before me.

And I'll put my opinion forward that most newbies really -need- the kind of strict clan schedule that the Byn provides. The Byn schedule does two main things:

1. It gets all the Bynners together in the same place, at the same time, to do something as a group. Newbies generally don't know how to find the interaction they want/need on their own; the schedule does it for them.

2. It teaches newbies (especially those coming from an HnS background) that in ARM we take the world into account, we don't train for RL hours without stopping, and that virtual activities such as weapons repair or latrine cleaning have equal weight with coded activities like sparring. The schedule teaches newbies how to play a real character role within Zalanthas, and this is critically important.

While in theory other clans -could- do the same thing as the Byn does for newbies, none of them do. AoD can't take newbies. Tuluki Legions probably can't either. It's highly, highly unlikely a newbie is going to find their way into the Guild. The GMHs may be decent choices at times, but they tend to have issues with spotty leadership, a too-spread playerbase, and lax rules which end up in newbie death. Becoming a partisan in Tuluk is likely overly complicated for most newbies, and that's really an indie role anyways; it's not the kind of clan experience most need. And most nobles don't have the time or PC staff to take on and really nurture a newb.

So much drama over this issue. It would have been much easier just to go on the threads where I said, "Hey maybe you should join the Byn," and just calmly suggest some other options instead.

[staggerlee]

The point Lizzie is trying to make I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, is as follows:

Join a clan that makes sense for your character, and suits your ooc restrictions.  That can be the byn, and any other clan. There may be clans that provide better training and suit you more than others, and as such you may have a more fulfilling time in them.  Don't assume anyone one clan is appropriate based on your play time, people who've been playing the game for ten years still have fun with bynners, and some new players have fun playing fale aides or rinthers.

Do what works for you, and for your character and don't be afraid to shop around and consider what clan is going to do that best.

[Folker]

I dont get the whole concept of the thread. I mean you gotta 'pay' to join the Byn. Therefore, whoever your character concept is, the chara has to make a conscious 'choice' to join it, and actually 'pay' for that decision. If you dont think your character concept is one to join Byn, then dont join it. If you think the concept fits fine with Byn, then join it. The details of what your character concept actually 'is' are irrelevent.

Now, I could understand this thread if it was speaking about the Guild and it's tendencies to force itself onto the 'rinth denizens. But that's labyrinth for you.

[Hot_Dancer]

Those who can't stand their roleplay being interrupted regularly by use of the OOC command should probably not join the Byn.

[Elgiva]

Besides, everyone SHOULD join the Byn at least once. It's part of the quintessential ARM experience. If we don't tell newbies that, then when 2.ARM rolls around and there's no Byn anymore, they'll all feel deprived they never got to try it out.

Hmm. Now I feel as if I am not the real Armageddon player... because I never tried the Byn and because I seriously don't plan it.
Why should everyone try the Byn? Are they supposed to try everything then? I feel Noble Houses are the "must" to try before Arm 2. Does it give me the right to jump on every newbie claiming he SHOULD try it, no matter what he enjoys to do? I doubt.
I think all advices about what EVERYONE SHOULD do are kind of useless. Some might adore the Byn, some might hate it. Armageddon is about possibilities, it gives everyone chance to find the "exactly this I wanted to try" position. Byn is NOT for everyone.

The only thing about Armageddon which EVERYONE SHOULD try is, IMHO, play Armageddon.

[Jherlen]

If there was one clan that I think was best for newbies to join, it'd definitely be the Byn. I haven't played in it, but I've played in other clans, and I think I can safely say the Byn experience would probably give better training to true newbies who need it.

I'm sure it's not for everyone - people who want to play social roles usually get directed towards the aide/bard route (or the Atrium, when it was open), and merchants/crafters can usually find work with Salarr/Kadius. It would be cool if the Byn would hire a socialite or two to negotiate contracts, so that scruffy Byn sarges don't have to meet with nobles directly... that'd give more social players a better way to get in on the Byn thing too. A successful Byn unit could even hire an in-house armorcrafter or tailor to equip their guys with crappy stuff that's easily replaceable, to be more open to merchant types. Maybe if I ever play a Byn sarge, I'll do that...

Really though, the advice to give newbies is "join a clan with an active and tolerant leader, and helpful PCs to learn from." Sometimes that's the Byn, other times it's Salarr or Kurac or some noble's gang. The important thing is that newbies find a crew who will support and train them.

[LoD]

Byn is NOT for everyone.

I keep hearing this.  Mostly from people that have never played there.  But I keep hearing this.

I'm not really sure where people get the notion that the Byn IS for everyone, or why they are taking it so personally.  Did the T'zai-Byn stop you from moving forward with a plot?  Did they suck up a potential recruit from you because someone on the GDB encouraged them to apply with the Byn instead of with a Noble or Merchant House?  Do the Sergeants give you condescending glances and tell you that that YOUR fee is 300 'sid AND an apology for being ugly?

If players want to advocate a particular clan as being newbie friendly - why does that harm you?  If players feel that their experience with the Byn most embodied the gritty and roughneck "feel" of Zalanthas "for them" -- why does that insult you?  You're all bright rays of sunshine.  Why do people feel the need to attack the regular praise and good comments players seem to have toward the T'zai-Byn or the experience?

No one is belittling your clan, experience, or worth as a player.  Why not return the favor?

-LoD

[Folker]

I keep trying to join Byn and keep failing. Either I end up pissing Byn off before deciding to join it, or someone else coming to an obviously better offer ICly (Even though OOCly I hoped to join the Byn). In the end ... I never tried Byn out, and yet I always wanted to.

[Synthesis]

Ha, yeah...I have a -lot- of trouble justifying a decision to join the Byn when there's almost always a merchant or noble house dangling a fat paysack in my face, at a whole lot less risk to life and limb.

[Gimfalisette]

Why should everyone try the Byn? Are they supposed to try everything then?

Actually, yes. I think everyone SHOULD try everything. Those who've never played in Tuluk, or Allanak, or the Labyrinth, or wherever should give those things a serious, committed try. The playerbase tends to get really wrapped up in, "Well, I like this one thing, and I don't like those other things. Plus everyone who plays over THERE is an ignorant asshole." We all have our comfort zones, sure, but I think the game benefits, and we benefit, when we stretch ourselves and try The New. A year and a half ago, I thought I'd "never" want to play in the 'rinth, and I'd "never" want to play in Allanak, and I'd "never" want to play a combat-oriented character, and etc etc, and I'm really happy I got over my negativity and gave some areas of play a true shot.

[X-D]

I agree with Gimf completly.

I've played pretty much everywhere and every thing...cept for the rinth. And I do not regret it.

[Rhyden]

Those who can't stand their roleplay being interrupted regularly by use of the OOC command should probably not join the Byn.

I'd say the Byn is one of the clans that interrupts the least with the OOC command. I've found it much more prevalent in other clans.

And when the OOC command -is- used in the Byn, it's usually to help new players along their way, which is a much better use for the command than I've seen it used in other clans (no naming names).

[BlackMagic0]

I was in for a good amount of time..

And the OOC command was almost -never- used. Yes.. For new people to go "OOC: Ask cook help" or such.. And that was it. Nothing else.. NO random OOC shit or crap.. I barely seen OOC used when I was in the byn. And loved it. My PC did not fully love it, but who says work makes you happy .

[Elgiva]

I can't help it, but I still find talks about what "everyone should" do a little annoying. I certainly know that noble houses are -not- for everyone (no matter it's my favourite role and it could be also a good place for newbies to learn). Now I am getting curious why Byn is so great, cool and absolutely different than other combat-oriented roles that it would be blast for -everyone- to try.

And no, I am not going to try myself. All I know about the Byn tells me I have other things I want to try and which seems much more fun at the moment.

[Elgiva]

Heh, my boyfriend just told me that there is an interesting theory about difference between US and Eastern Europe mentality when it comes to words "everyone should". This theory says (and thinking about it in depth I am inclined to agree with it) that Eastern Europe people take words "everyone should" much more negatively than US people do (probably because of the history). Thinking about it, it is exactly this combination of words what kind of annoyed me. Interesting, isn't it?

I just had a deep urge to share this

[Barzalene]

He could be right.

[Krath]

Now I am getting curious why Byn is so great, cool and absolutely different than other combat-oriented roles that it would be blast for -everyone- to try.

Try it and find out. 

[Eukelade]

Yeah, guys and girls. 

Come try the Byn.  Come and try it today. 

Really.  Come on in.  I've been waiting for you!

[Mr.B]

In large part, anywhere there are great players in leadership roles, that engage others, and great imms who slave day and night to engage and inspire others to rooooooleplayyy deeper, players should check them out and roleplay there regardless of class/race as long as their actions don't get them murdered.

I could see a merchant in the Byn being a shitty fighter, but a great fucking quartermaster and catch-all equipment specialist. Repairing shields and armor, crafting new ones for fresh runners so they can -actually- afford water. Training with runners, being a disciplinarian watchdog for the sergeants, being a socially savvy and likeable bastard for the diligent work he does do, and gains influence and knowledge for it.

The scrawny pickpocket could be a Sergeant's best in-house spy, and shady work dealer if he wanted to, and was smart about getting such work done. He could be a social scout for his unit, he could perform inspections on his fellow soldiers for his sergeant with an all-seeing street-eyeball, or be the unit's mascot you name it.

Get past coded skillset thinking, give your character some personality and you'll have fun no matter what.