Who should -not- join the Byn

[Lizzie]

I've been tempted to respond to a few different threads lately, but since they were all in response to people recommending the Byn, I thought it'd be easier to open a thread just for the purpose.

Fortunately, I have been better educated by players in this thread, and have realized I was wrong. So without further ado, here are people who should not join the Byn:

No one. No one should not join the Byn. Everyone should join the Byn. In fact, if you are used to MUSHES, to the point where the very idea of combat spam gives you a migraine, you should make absolutely sure that your ivory-skinned, delicate-boned, guild-merchant jeweler joins the Byn within your first hour of play. You need to get immersed in combat before doing anything else, or you will hate Armageddon and many kittens will die.

If you only have one hour of time to play the game every day, and the idea of logging in just in time to catch the end of a sparring session, then running to the tavern after sparring, just in time to run back to the compound for more sparring, and then logging out for the night, churns your stomach, then the Byn is absolutely positively for you.

If you have read all the warnings about not leaving the city gates if you want a long-lived character, and feel that it is sound advice, and want to give your first character the best possible chance at survival, then do yourself a huge favor and make a non-combat character, and have that non-combat character join the Byn.

Because everyone knows that the Byn is fine for anyone, regardless of their OOC situation or preferences to their Arming pleasures.

Edited to correct everything because I was wrong about everything, according to everyone else.

[X-D]

Point number one is nearly a given.

I completly disagree on point #2

The Byn is actually my clan of choice if I am not able to play often or for long periods or if my logins are going to be erratic. If you wish to join a clan, there is no better clan for that.

You don't need a "day off" to go enjoy tavern time, the Byn schedule leaves nights off which ICly is when there are people in the taverns anyway.

Now, if you are an off peak player...well, I'd probly not join the byn
But then, its tough to find any clan that is good for. Tribes tend to be a bit better for that.

[Gimfalisette]

The typical new player is a 20-year-old American male who's coming from a MUD background primarily playing hack-and-slash type stuff, and is new to roleplaying. This guy is interested in fighting stuff, or stealing stuff. He's not interested in crafting stuff, he's not interested in politics, he probably doesn't know much about how to really play a character or even emote. His major issue will be killing things without insta-dying; insta-death from scrabs just outside the gates of Allanak is a -terrible- way to introduce someone to ARM.

If you go back and read my recent recommendations to "join the Byn," that's the kind of player I'm addressing. And that's the kind of player the Byn really works for--those who want/need to learn the coded, combat-oriented areas of gameplay first. This drive toward learning combat first is A-OK, and the Byn supports it well.

And if any clan is going to have a decent population to support folks who only have short playtimes, the Byn is certainly it.

Not to mention, there are some combat-oriented clans who cannot take newbies at all; but the Byn can and does.

Besides, everyone SHOULD join the Byn at least once. It's part of the quintessential ARM experience. If we don't tell newbies that, then when 2.ARM rolls around and there's no Byn anymore, they'll all feel deprived they never got to try it out.

[Synthesis]

> help tzai_byn
T'zai Byn                                                          (General)

   Once the Allanaki Mercenaries' Guild, The T'zai Byn is now the largest
mercenaries' guild in both Allanak and Tuluk.  It is easily the oldest
and largest mercenary company in Allanak. With a reputation for toughness
and brutal effectiveness on the field, the Byn is also known for its
neutrality with respect to many factions, an essential quality for much
of its work. Escorting, guarding, and training are the company's three
main operations.


I think the help file, and the fact that you have to -pay- to get into the Byn suggest that yes, you may in fact join the Byn merely to learn how to effectively wield a sword and shield.

[Kevo]

The typical new player is a 20-year-old American male who's coming from a MUD background primarily playing hack-and-slash type stuff, and is new to roleplaying. This guy is interested in fighting stuff, or stealing stuff. He's not interested in crafting stuff, he's not interested in politics, he probably doesn't know much about how to really play a character or even emote. His major issue will be killing things without insta-dying; insta-death from scrabs just outside the gates of Allanak is a -terrible- way to introduce someone to ARM.

You can't be serious.
That's opinion, not fact, right?
I think you have broken my heart.
I'm a twenty-ish american male.

Although, I have no interest in just combat. I'm more interested in crafting, exploration, and pretty much just telling a good story.
When I first joined Arm, I was around 16, so at that time, I have found only games that you were describing, but I often had the most fun just roleplaying the char, even if it didn't quite fit in with the actual scenery.

I tried playing the eternal city, but it felt cold, and empty. the only emotion and heart I saw, was associated with materialistic things. I guess that's understandable, for the setting, but i could tell it was just the player's emphasis, and not the char itself. I tried some other games, and I think Topmudlisting had Arm on it, and I was like, hmm, roleplay _enforced_....awesome.

My first char was cut down twice in two hours. I found the well in the rinth, and then I met a friendly raider. heh. good times.
Mey second char joined the Byn. I didn't even want to, I was playing a thief, and they really needed a cover story for their occupation, so I used some of my newbie sid to join on, and I had a great time being bad at it.

I enjoyed not doing well, getting chewed out, resenting my job, griping about latrine duty, and then drinking myself stupid in the Gaj.
I think everyone should join the Byn, if at least so they can one day say, I couldn't cut it in the Byn. That way, we all have an embarassing secret for mindbenders to pry loose. Or not. Whichever is funner for you.

[Gimfalisette]

You can't be serious.
That's opinion, not fact, right?
I think you have broken my heart.
I'm a twenty-ish american male.

I don't have access to the relevant data, but I would bet money that I'm correct about what I think. Could I be wrong, sure...but the fact remains we do get a lot of young males who are HnSers. And to that I say, AWESOME! Clearly they're looking for something more; maybe they don't know what it really is yet, but we'll bring them into ARM and addict them to Crackageddon. Eventually I hope they all grow up to be LoDs and similar older guys who started as HnSer types, but are now so much more.

So you're twenty-something and you're not like the typical new player? Cool! I'm a thirties-something woman and I'm not the typical newbie either. Who cares, really? Even I, who hardly did combat on my first real character (and then died to a combination of a raptor in a weird location and massive lag), needed to learn about combat at some point...so I joined the Byn!

We get plenty of MUSHers who have no experience with hard-coded reality, either. Guess what...at some point they will also need to learn about combat. The Byn is a great place for them too, even though (like me) their -first- character attempt may not be combat-oriented.

I'm currently being amused that a year or 18 months ago, I would have been accused of being too Tuluk- and bards-RAH RAH, and now folks think I'm a Byn rah-rah. Different strokes of ARM for different folks, mi amigos.

[Rhyden]

Not everyone should join the Byn, but everyone can join the Byn so long as they fit the IC requirements. And though there are perhaps better or worse clans to be in when your playing time isn't lengthy, anyone should be able to join any clan, regardless of how long they play. The Byn, like several other clans, has a simple atmosphere where newer players can learn how to play the game without much risk.

Can non-fighting characters join the Byn? Abso-fucking-lutely - so long as they have the 300 sid and the Sergeant is willing. Of course, they'll probably be at a slight disadvantage when the fighting characters start beating the crap out of them. In the end, the Byn is as much a mercenary guild as it is a training guild, so if you come without any prior knowledge of combat, you'll probably leave with some, if you make it.

[Lizzie]

So much for trying to fix confusion rather than cause it.

Edit: I have been corrected soundly and see the errors of my ways. My thread -was- supposed to be about everything I posted below, but I was wrong. So instead, this thread is about how everyone can join the Byn, and how everyone should join the Byn. No matter what your OOC preferences for playing are, whether you want to start your first character with Armageddon playing it safe behind city walls with a non-combat character, or whether you want to dive right in there with a hunter. It doesn't matter, because as you can see by everyone else's posts, the Byn is for anyone and everytone.

Gim, I made this new thread, intentionally so as not to detract or derail from the other threads. THIS thread (was supposed to be) about who should NOT join the Byn. Not about who should join it. Rhyden, yes I realize anyone CAN join the Byn. That is not what this thread (was supposed to be) about. It's about who SHOULD join it. From an OOC standpoint, not an IC standpoint. From a new player - PLAYER, not PC, who, like myself, did not want to get immediately into combat. I wanted the -opportunity- to do so, but it was definitely not my primary goal. I totally completely did NOT want to be subjected to IC scheduling, where I might have to play a character who intentionally breaks rules, just so I could NOT spar for 20 minutes, then need to log out for an hour, and log back in only to find out it's sparring time again.

Everyone knows that that Byn is awesome for combat training (not merchant training, not short-term "what's the syntax for equipping my weapon and shield? Oh thanks, c-ya" training, not lockpicking training, not palm training. Combat training.) But not everyone who reads this forum, who is new to this game, and possibly even to roleplaying, realizes that the Byn is NOT for non-combat *players.* Sure any guild_merchant can show up at the Byn gates with 300 sids and join. But the *player* is not going to have much fun, unless that player has been around long enough to realize what it means to be the exception to the rule.

That is the purpose of this thread.

[Marauder Moe]

I disagree with #1.

I had a merchant in the Byn.  He never won a single sparring match (though he did improve his fighting skills over time).  His sergeant begged him not to leave when his term as a runner was up.

[Lizzie]

Moe, you probably weren't brand new to Armageddon. You probably knew that picking guild_merchant and joining the Byn was not a "typical" move for a non-combat-oriented character choice. You knew that you would be playing the exception to the rule. You knew that no one in the Byn was going to teach you how to be a merchant. You weren't going to get much opportunity to become a master crafter. You were going to spend -most- of your character's time, -most- of your login time, either sparring, or riding out on combat-oriented contracts. You, the player, knew this, and you, the player, was able to come to an educated decision to do it anyway.

This thread has nothing to do with what people CAN do. I thought I made that clear. A thief CAN join the Legion. A rinth-rat CAN join Kurac. A hunter CAN join House Oash. A warrior CAN become a noble's aide. This has nothing to do with what you CAN do. It has to do with expectations of brand spanking new players who have no idea that the Byn is a combat-oriented clan, and if they plan on learning how to be a noble's aide with their guild_merchant armorcrafter_subguild character, then they should probably NOT join the Byn.

[Rhyden]

Rhyden, yes I realize anyone CAN join the Byn. That is not what this thread is about. It's about who SHOULD join it. From an OOC standpoint, not an IC standpoint. From a new player - PLAYER, not PC, who, like myself, did not want to get immediately into combat. I wanted the -opportunity- to do so, but it was definitely not my primary goal. I totally completely did NOT want to be subjected to IC scheduling, where I might have to play a character who intentionally breaks rules, just so I could NOT spar for 20 minutes, then need to log out for an hour, and log back in only to find out it's sparring time again.

It sounds like you simply don't like the schedule of the Byn. As said, there are other clans. With different schedules.

Everyone knows that that Byn is awesome for combat training (not merchant training, not short-term "what's the syntax for equipping my weapon and shield? Oh thanks, c-ya" training, not lockpicking training, not palm training. Combat training.) But not everyone who reads this forum, who is new to this game, and possibly even to roleplaying, realizes that the Byn is NOT for non-combat *players.* Sure any guild_merchant can show up at the Byn gates with 300 sids and join. But the *player* is not going to have much fun, unless that player has been around long enough to realize what it means to be the exception to the rule.

It's a good thing the Byn is one of the easiest clans to leave, perhaps due to the fact that its one of the only public ones unaffiliated with any House.

[Marauder Moe]

Moe, you probably weren't brand new to Armageddon. You probably knew that picking guild_merchant and joining the Byn was not a "typical" move for a non-combat-oriented character choice. You knew that you would be playing the exception to the rule. You knew that no one in the Byn was going to teach you how to be a merchant. You weren't going to get much opportunity to become a master crafter. You were going to spend -most- of your character's time, -most- of your login time, either sparring, or riding out on combat-oriented contracts. You, the player, knew this, and you, the player, was able to come to an educated decision to do it anyway.

That was my third character, actually, and I expected that I'd eventually be able to hold my own against the average wilderness mob.

This thread has nothing to do with what people CAN do. I thought I made that clear. A thief CAN join the Legion. A rinth-rat CAN join Kurac. A hunter CAN join House Oash. A warrior CAN become a noble's aide. This has nothing to do with what you CAN do. It has to do with expectations of brand spanking new players who have no idea that the Byn is a combat-oriented clan, and if they plan on learning how to be a noble's aide with their guild_merchant armorcrafter_subguild character, then they should probably NOT join the Byn.

Who the heck, even as a newbie, was inducted into the Byn without having found out what they were?

[Jenred]

I enjoyed not doing well, getting chewed out, resenting my job, griping about latrine duty, and then drinking myself stupid in the Gaj.
I think everyone should join the Byn, if at least so they can one day say, I couldn't cut it in the Byn. That way, we all have an embarassing secret for mindbenders to pry loose. Or not. Whichever is funner for you.

The best was when a monster came out of latrine.... it was like a shit-covered.... something.
The female was scarred for life.

Oh and drinking at the Gaj... there was some chick that used to dance on the tables... mm.
Oh, and then the best job ever, being forward troops for an attack on Tuluk? mm...

And then when we had that one elf that resented everyone for being human?

fun times in the Byn. Years and years of fun times.


Just wish I wasn't on off-peak time in Korea, or I'd join (not fun seeing 1 or 2 on Who)

[Ghost]

A RL friend of mine started playing his first character a few years ago, I suggested him Byn and he rolled a merchant character and started there.  He did not learn to fight.  He never got good at fighting.  But he did get in just fine, he did learn how to emote during his training.  He did Allanak from his clanmates, he did learn Byners are a piece of shit in the social status, just like every other commoner.
Before he finished his 24 hours of playtime, when a clanmate asked him if he will be a Byner for life, my friend pretty much said: "I am not really up for fighting.  I joined the Byn because I am from the farms and don't know anyone in the city.  I wanted to make my contacts and get to know the city while I have shelter and food.  Byn gives me all that.  So no, I will start a business around here, and you fuckers can be my clients."

So yeah, complete newbie, guild_merchant and Byn worked out.

Byn is not just a training ground.  The people in byn (when I played there) did expect for most of the newbies to join there.  That is why it is so easy to join Byn.  It has pretty simple rules, nothing a newbie can screw up or get intimidated with.  It is downright gritty and zalanthan, pretty good way of showing how the life of a commoner in Zalanthas is.  It is (for the most part) an active clan, which a newbie can benefit a lot from.  It accepts people from all races and cities.  And once the newbie gets comfortable with the game and wants to leave they can, whereas some clans are for life.

So...  I am pretty confident in suggesting all newbies to start from Byn.  If there was still Atrium, I could also offer that one but meh.

[Mood]

The Byn is a useful clan for inducting newbies into the game, no matter what their guild. Had my first PC not joined, it's unlikely I'd be around today - Armageddon can be very frustrating to newbies, and it's nice to have a clan like the Byn that can help you along.

[Jenred]

And besides just being a good introduction to commands, combat, emoting, etc., it was a GREAT introduction to my first couple characters on the intricacies of racial roleplay (We had an elf while I was there), social structure (we served nobles that paid well, independents that paid less, and templars that paid if we were lucky), city geography, world geography, etc.

its good all around, and the concept alone can fit with almost anything.
You pay to be there, for whatever reason. We had a merchant that joined, like someone mentioned above, to learn the VERY basics, of combat. They were a house sponser. They had no intention of being great.

At one point, a magicker joined! (We learned they were a magicker later).

The idea of a mercenary band of ragtag people is great for anyone playing the very common, "lone individual trying to make his way".

[Marauder Moe]

Oh come on, Lizzie.  Don't be daft. 

You said, essentially, "all non-combat-focused characters should not join the Byn".

Several people responded with examples saying that "some non-combat-focused characters have joined the Byn an benefited", thereby logically refuting your argument.

That does not mean, however, that anyone is making the statement "all characters should join the Byn"... except you, now.

[Lizzie]

No, that isn't what I said Moe, and that is why I am frustrated with the responses. I said that PLAYERS whose interest in PLAYING non-com characters should not join the Byn. And the reason for that is, they will end up involved in combat, even though it wasn't what they wanted to do. It doesn't matter what guild/class you pick. It matters what you WANT to do with your time in the game. If you DO want to experiment, explore, play with, or focus on combat, then the Byn is awesome and very appropriate. If you (you, the player, not your character) want to AVOID combat with the time you have available for playing Armageddon, then the Byn is not an appropriate choice.

If YOU, the PLAYER, do NOT want to have a character involved in combat, then the BYn is not an appropriate choice. You might end up involved in combat anyway, even if you don't join the Byn. But joining the Byn is definitely something you would not want to do, if your gameplaying interest lies outside the realm of regularly scheuled combat.

[Marauder Moe]

Ok... isn't that kind of obvious, though?

[Lizzie]

No, it isn't Moe. That is why I created this thread. When I first started playing Armageddon, I read MUCH more of the GDB than I did of the official documents. I paid close attention to what other players were saying, especially to the recommendations of veterans to new players in the new player section of the forum.

If I had heeded the constant, continual "JOIN THE BYN!" advice of everyone, I would not still be playing Armageddon. If my first impression of gaming in this game consisted of adhering to a strict schedule as a human warrior in the Byn in Allanak, as was highly -highly- recommended, I would have not even bothered to kill off my character. I simply would have stopped playing after the first couple of days.

The Byn has become a catch-all piece of advice for everyone, and it really just plain isn't right for everyone. Some players are "socializers" by nature and really do not want to be burdened with combat on a regular basis. I'm very much a socializer, but I have a big chunk of "explorer" in me as well. And I recognize that if I want to play an explorer type in Armageddon, then yes I do need to have some combat skills, and I do need to practice them. But I would never join the Byn with any of my characters, because of the nature of the clan. From what I've seen in RPing with Bynners, from the documents themselves, the Byn has very strict schedules, and the only time you are allowed to go off to explore is if you go with your unit on a contract or other expedition arranged by your Sergeant. If there is no contract, and your sergeant's player isn't usually around when you play, then you are stuck, OR you have to decide to play a rule-breaker and go out and do what YOU, the player, wanted to do in the first place. Which was to explore.

For socializers like me, even with the added desire to explore the game world, the Byn is a HUGE turn-off. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way, and I thought it would be a service to new players who might also be "socializers" to know that yes, everyone recommends the Byn for everything, for every purpose, for every function, for everyone, but no, it really isn't appropriate all the time for everyone no matter what.

[LoD]

No, that isn't what I said Moe, and that is why I am frustrated with the responses. I said that PLAYERS whose interest in PLAYING non-com characters should not join the Byn. And the reason for that is, they will end up involved in combat, even though it wasn't what they wanted to do. It doesn't matter what guild/class you pick. It matters what you WANT to do with your time in the game.

If YOU, the PLAYER, do NOT want to have a character involved in combat, then the Byn is not an appropriate choice.

Lizzie,

You seem to be really riled up about this subject and want people to agree with you that the T'zai-Byn is not the single best solution for every character concept possible in the realm of Armageddon.  Let me give you the satisfaction that you so desperately crave -- I agree. 

However, I cannot agree that the T'zai-Byn is not an appropriate choice for players that do not want to play a character involved in combat.  As you mentioned before, whether you are in the T'zai-Byn or not will not save your character from potentially being in combat, and I interpret your statement as meaning that people joining the Byn cannot escape the normal schedule that forces them to endure sparring sessions even if they are not interested in that form of RP.

I can think of several non-combat character concepts that would work in the T'zai-Byn.  And if I were to play one of them, I would find a Sergeant and pitch my character concept to them along with my 300 (or perhaps 400) 'sid to make it happen.

Here are a few off the top of my head:

Quartermaster (Merchant/Armor Crafter)

Create a quartermaster character that joins the Byn under a Sergeant, responsible for making sure the Unit is outfitted appropriately and making use of resources the Unit gathers in the field to make a profit and/or keep the company outfitted with the best they can manage.  This character might be free of the regular daily regimen to keep contacts with House Salarr and negotiate with local hunters that provide them with materials for creating goods/items.

Cook (Any combination)

Every Unit could use a cook.  Someone who goes along with the mercenaries on missions and handles all of the non-combative tasks; the food and water duties, tending to the pack animals, making fires, cooking up food, rationing out the water, and carrying other supplies that might be necessary to success such as torches, rope, arrows, extra shields or weapons, etc...

Interpreter (Any class/Linguist)

Ever run into a group out in the wilderness, or encounter a northern/southern patrol that probably doesn't want to hear a barbarian speak to them?  Well, it sure would be nice to have someone along that can handle the finer points of communication.  Someone who can speak with those elves, who has spent time learning the ways of the various nomadic tribes.  Someone who might be able to give that northern raiding group pause when they switch to a northern accent and describe how they're on a mission hunting down a northern enemy.

What I remember of the T'zai-Byn is not the hours and hours spent in coded combat, but the interactions with those characters during each of the appointed tasks.  It's one of the few clans that reinforces interaction with the same group of people over and over and over again, almost daring people to invent RP as a means of passing the time.  As a result, you usually get more out of your session than with people who aren't on Day 20 of cleaning the latrine.

Armageddon is a wonderfully diverse game, and one of its best features is that you find ways to be anything that you want to be, as long as you're willing to adopt the concept in your own mind.  So, while I agree that the T'zai-Byn might not be the globally best choice for any and all characters, saying that it is inappropriate for people that want to avoid coded combat isn't necessarily true. 

Be creative with solutions to problems, and there are no limits to what you can achieve.

-LoD

[Marauder Moe]

Out of curiosity, why didn't you heed the advice of everyone and join the Byn?

Have you ever heard of anyone who did want to be just a socializer but joined the Byn instead and had a bad time?

Also... have you ever played in the Byn?  Nearly half of the schedule is socializing (with your fellow Bynners), and plenty of social banter occurs during the other half too.

I'm a very social player.  I love the Byn.

The Byn does plenty of exploring too.  They end up in all corners of the world, and if you stay with them long enough you're virtually guaranteed to see every single human-visitable settlement.  You seem to be implying that it's not truly "exploring" unless you're alone and acting on your own schedule.

Sorry, I'm just really puzzled here.  You seem to be very adamantly protesting a problem that I can't even see.

[Ghost]

What are you really saying?  Of course it is obvious.  When they are encouraged to join a mercenary guild, what are they going to think they will be doing durig their time?  It is a mercenary guild for Krath's sake, not a book club.  How much more obvious it could be that there will be involvement with combat?

The Byn has become a catch-all piece of advice for everyone, and it really just plain isn't right for everyone. Some players are "socializers" by nature and really do not want to be burdened with combat on a regular basis.

What?  The Byn -does- give you the chance to socialize, what do you think you will be doing with your clan mates, just fight all day?  The Byn has 3 IG hours of training every IG day, and yet even that is all about socializing.  Because when you are waiting beside the sparring ring you don't idle usually, but chat with your clanmates.  Even people who are in the ring do keep talking while they fight.  Why do you think many people -LOVE- Byn, just because combat?  No.  Because the life of a mercenary is as colorful as that of a pirate.

If you like to explore, you would rather do it when you are -NOT- newbie anymore.  How much more frustrating it would be for someone to die everytime to learn learn something new.  If a newbie wants to explore, they can join the byn, get the regular desert training, grasp the common knowledge about the desert in Zalanthas and then once they graduate, they can join wherever they want to join and then explore/socialize in a non-mercenary guild.

[X-D]

Ghost, LoD, and Moe explain quite well. But I am going to throw in my 2 sid as well.

Because the Byn is a VERY social clan. Complete with parts of schedule strictly to flex your emotive change ldesc muscles along with others.

LoD and myself have both played Byn officers, and he is correct about being able to play non-combat roles in the byn. My PC hired just as he suggested. Quartermaster, Medic etc. And they were encouraged to learn some combat as well. Lets face it, If your medic dies in the first round of combat he is not doing you any good. But never pushed hard on the matter.

The strict rules of the byn actually I think help to make them one of the MOST social clans in that people are (hopefully) Kept alive and inside the city most the time rather then wandering off on their own.. Ever seen a successful byn sarge or LT who was Not social? They have to be, its in the job description.

[Lizzie]

I read a post about a guy who doesn't have much time to play, and wants to play a thief character, not just the code, but the character itself. Everyone was telling him to join the Byn. And I was thinking, WTF does the Byn have to do with learning how to be a thief? And, in Allanak at least, if he does join the Byn, and his Sergeant is around to make sure he sticks with the schedule, and he only has an hour to play every day, that means he is -most- likely (compared with other clans), to have ONLY enough time to get to the tavern before he has to turn around and get back to sparring again. Leaving him with little to no time to actually try to "be" the thief he wants his character to be. Unless of course he tries stealing from his clannies, but if he's a clever thief, he'll know that you don't piss in your own back yard.

I thought, why is everyone telling this guy to join the Byn? Why not get into more "underworld" options instead, hang out where seedy types hang out and hope to get picked up by the less talked about clan(s)? At least that way he'll have a really good shot at having someone teach him, both code-wise and ICly, what it's like to BE a Zalanthan thief.

And that's when I realized, people just automatically toss out the Byn card, no matter what. It's almost as though they're not reading the newbie's post. They see "new person asks advice - the most accceptable answer, no matter what his question is: Join the Byn."

Why didn't I join the Byn? Because my first character was a guild-merchant, with I think hunter subclass, and I wanted to be the kind of crafter who could skin her own hides and raw materials and become a trader. I didn't want to be a "fighter" type, I had no desire to get involved in barroom brawls, I wanted my character to be highly "civilized" polite with proper speaking and clean clothes, the type who would -hire- the Byn, not the type who would be a member. That was my initial goal in playing, and after reading the GDB (see, not the docs - the GDB) I discovered that Tuluk was probably the best place for that. I ended up hired by Salarr as an aide my first day playing, was instructed not to go out hunting without escort, my only escort got killed, and I stored the character when the NPC said I'd have to be transferred to Allanak when my boss was executed. The idea of being stuck in what I understood to be a place where only rangers could see at night, where there wasn't much to hunt unless you were already damned good at hunting, in a role where I knew I'd rarely have a chance to get out anyway, was so unattractive to me that I just stored and moved on.

[Lizzie]

You know what, I'm done trying to defend myself in this thread. You all want to go on and continue twisting my words, interpreting things I didn't say, and attacking my opinion have at it. Obviously the Tzai Byn is the sacred cow of the Armageddon players, and is always the most appropriate thing to recommend under any and all circumstances on the GDB, which is why you see so many people recommending it no matter what the player's interests are.

You are all right. I am wrong. And I will enjoy being wrong, and not join the Byn with any of my characters, and I will continue to recommend other clans when they seem to be more appropriate than the Byn in response to new players seeking advice. Because in my wrong, bad, incorrect, misguided opinion, the Byn is not the -most- appropriate answer to every new player's request for advice. Except I'll do it in PM from now on so none of you have to be subjected to my wrongness.

[X-D]

That is probly one of the saddest player stories I've ever heard Lizzie.

Also, I would not hesitate to say that the Byn is a far better option for a newbie thief and many other types of PCs then to go the underworld angle. Least if you played it right you might be able to go a long time without anybody suspecting your a thief.

Also, often the advice to join the byn is because many people consider it the real arm experiance. One that every player should have.

(Edit)
Wait a moment, you have never even had a Byn PC? Blinks. Then how can you even begin to say if it is right or wrong a good suggestion or not? Boggles.

[Marauder Moe]

I read a post about a guy who doesn't have much time to play, and wants to play a thief character, not just the code, but the character itself. Everyone was telling him to join the Byn. And I was thinking, WTF does the Byn have to do with learning how to be a thief?  *snip*

This thread?  The one where one person suggested he join the Byn, and only in the context of responding to his question about playtimes?  Gimf probably meant he should consider having a future character play the Byn.  Just because his first character is a thief doesn't mean he as a player only wants to play thieves.

Why didn't I join the Byn? Because my first character was a guild-merchant, with I think hunter subclass, and I wanted to be the kind of crafter who could skin her own hides and raw materials and become a trader. I didn't want to be a "fighter" type, I had no desire to get involved in barroom brawls, I wanted my character to be highly "civilized" polite with proper speaking and clean clothes, the type who would -hire- the Byn, not the type who would be a member. That was my initial goal in playing, and after reading the GDB (see, not the docs - the GDB) I discovered that Tuluk was probably the best place for that. I ended up hired by Salarr as an aide my first day playing, was instructed not to go out hunting without escort, my only escort got killed, and I stored the character when the NPC said I'd have to be transferred to Allanak when my boss was executed. The idea of being stuck in what I understood to be a place where only rangers could see at night, where there wasn't much to hunt unless you were already damned good at hunting, in a role where I knew I'd rarely have a chance to get out anyway, was so unattractive to me that I just stored and moved on.

And what makes you so special that you have the ability to, after reading the advice offered on the boards, make your own decision about what clan to join but other newbies can't?  Give them some credit.  I seriously seriously doubt there is a rash of newbie players getting duped into joining the Byn and then quitting the game because they didn't want to be in so much combat.  However, I believe there are a lot of players who come to this game and underestimate the value of clan membership, and wouldn't have known that it's a very good way to learn the game if someone hadn't suggested so on the GDB.

[LoD]

I thought, why is everyone telling this guy to join the Byn? Why not get into more "underworld" options instead, hang out where seedy types hang out and hope to get picked up by the less talked about clan(s)? At least that way he'll have a really good shot at having someone teach him, both code-wise and ICly, what it's like to BE a Zalanthan thief.

They are likely telling him to join the Byn for the same reason I imagine people tell bright-eyed, bushy-tailed 18 year olds that want to be snipers crawling around in jungles they need to go through boot camp like everyone else to learn how to survive.  Certain clans and occupations are fast paced and require a certain degree of patience or understanding in order to navigate them successfully.  Needless to say, many of them are not newbie-friendly and your thief would very likely be dead within 2 RL days instead of perhaps learning to survive Armageddon in a more newbie-friendly environment like the Byn.

You have to remember that people are responding with the BOTH the character's and player's best interests in mind.  What good is pointing the character toward a specialized, fast-paced, complicated clan or environment when they don't even have a good grasp of the game syntax, city dynamics, and all kinds of information that experienced players take for granted.  We already know how to emote, where to find water and food, how to use and improve our skills, and have identified the major organizations and players that we need to be cognizant of not to make a major mistake (i.e. Like telling a templar to stick it.)

New players don't come with that set of skills, regardless of what they want to play, and many people probably felt that the T'zai-Byn was a good learning environment for them, as a character, but more importantly as a PLAYER.  They were able to move through a slightly safer environment as they made their mistakes, so that instead of permadeath they received a less severe punishment or lesson at the hands of experienced players.  There are also many inexperienced players alongside you that can help your transition into the game because you don't feel like a duck out of water or completely lost alongside players that may or may not take the time to help you learn while they play out a scene.

IC and OOC considerations both contribute to suggestions players make, especially in an OOC forum like the GDB.  They are trying to steer the player toward an environment that's similar to a "boot camp" for people who are not yet ready to jump feet-first into a complicated and sensitive role within the game.  I wouldn't assume that players are throwing out, "Join the Byn" because they aren't reading into what the person wants to achieve, but because they are reading into the message they are sending.

And that message in this case was probably, "I am new to the game and I will die in 2 seconds if I try to survive in a den of actual cut-throats and brigands.  I have a real need as both a player and my character to learn about the game and my role simultaneously."  And for many people, the T'zai-Byn is where they learned -- so they suggest it.  Do you know what that says to me?  It says that many, many people are advocating the Byn because they feel it helped them accomplish what this new person now wants to accomplish. 

What better lip service can something get that unsolicited advertisement and encouragement?  The T'zai-Byn is an asset to the game, not the devil.

-LoD

[Krath]

Ok, Who cares Lizzie. If it is IC for your PC to join the Byn do it. And So what people throw the byn out there if people dont want to play a lot. They reason they probably do is because that is usually one of the biggest clans with the most wide spread playtimes. So it is likely that when they DO decide to log on they will have someone to rp with.  If their pc doesnt want to join then byn then dont. If they do and dont like it leave. Simple as that, there is no discussion that needs to be talked about.

[Ghost]

You know what, I'm done trying to defend myself in this thread. You all want to go on and continue twisting my words, interpreting things I didn't say, and attacking my opinion have at it.

I do not see much of an attacking an opinion as you word it.  My previous response might have come out as harsh, but then that is because your posts pretty much were worded as "This is how it is" rather than "This is how I think it is".

I read a post about a guy who doesn't have much time to play, and wants to play a thief character, not just the code, but the character itself. Everyone was telling him to join the Byn. And I was thinking, WTF does the Byn have to do with learning how to be a thief? And, in Allanak at least, if he does join the Byn, and his Sergeant is around to make sure he sticks with the schedule, and he only has an hour to play every day, that means he is -most- likely (compared with other clans), to have ONLY enough time to get to the tavern before he has to turn around and get back to sparring again. Leaving him with little to no time to actually try to "be" the thief he wants his character to be. Unless of course he tries stealing from his clannies, but if he's a clever thief, he'll know that you don't piss in your own back yard.

Having played in the said shady parts of the world with characters who lived considerably long time, I would suggest any thief player to first learn the game/gameworld and then move to those parts.  If I were a newbie today and someone suggested me to go to rinth, the experience I would receive in my first times would set me completely off balance to the game itself.  So still, given it is a newbie, I do not see how suggesting Byn to even a thief is any wrong.

[Gimfalisette]

What everyone else said. And...

The whole "social player" vs. "combat player" thing is a false distinction. Anyone who knows me, knows that I massively qualify as a "social player." And yet to say that I wouldn't ever want or need to know about combat, or wouldn't be successful in a combat role, or that the Byn wouldn't be "the right place"...that's all just plain not true.

There are many, many, many more places in ARM that are not right for new players, than there are which ARE right for newbies. I'd guess the Byn is "right" for at least 9 out of 10 newbies, for all the reasons laid out by posters before me.

And I'll put my opinion forward that most newbies really -need- the kind of strict clan schedule that the Byn provides. The Byn schedule does two main things:

1. It gets all the Bynners together in the same place, at the same time, to do something as a group. Newbies generally don't know how to find the interaction they want/need on their own; the schedule does it for them.

2. It teaches newbies (especially those coming from an HnS background) that in ARM we take the world into account, we don't train for RL hours without stopping, and that virtual activities such as weapons repair or latrine cleaning have equal weight with coded activities like sparring. The schedule teaches newbies how to play a real character role within Zalanthas, and this is critically important.

While in theory other clans -could- do the same thing as the Byn does for newbies, none of them do. AoD can't take newbies. Tuluki Legions probably can't either. It's highly, highly unlikely a newbie is going to find their way into the Guild. The GMHs may be decent choices at times, but they tend to have issues with spotty leadership, a too-spread playerbase, and lax rules which end up in newbie death. Becoming a partisan in Tuluk is likely overly complicated for most newbies, and that's really an indie role anyways; it's not the kind of clan experience most need. And most nobles don't have the time or PC staff to take on and really nurture a newb.

So much drama over this issue. It would have been much easier just to go on the threads where I said, "Hey maybe you should join the Byn," and just calmly suggest some other options instead.

[staggerlee]

The point Lizzie is trying to make I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, is as follows:

Join a clan that makes sense for your character, and suits your ooc restrictions.  That can be the byn, and any other clan. There may be clans that provide better training and suit you more than others, and as such you may have a more fulfilling time in them.  Don't assume anyone one clan is appropriate based on your play time, people who've been playing the game for ten years still have fun with bynners, and some new players have fun playing fale aides or rinthers.

Do what works for you, and for your character and don't be afraid to shop around and consider what clan is going to do that best.

[Folker]

I dont get the whole concept of the thread. I mean you gotta 'pay' to join the Byn. Therefore, whoever your character concept is, the chara has to make a conscious 'choice' to join it, and actually 'pay' for that decision. If you dont think your character concept is one to join Byn, then dont join it. If you think the concept fits fine with Byn, then join it. The details of what your character concept actually 'is' are irrelevent.

Now, I could understand this thread if it was speaking about the Guild and it's tendencies to force itself onto the 'rinth denizens. But that's labyrinth for you.

[Hot_Dancer]

Those who can't stand their roleplay being interrupted regularly by use of the OOC command should probably not join the Byn.

[Elgiva]

Besides, everyone SHOULD join the Byn at least once. It's part of the quintessential ARM experience. If we don't tell newbies that, then when 2.ARM rolls around and there's no Byn anymore, they'll all feel deprived they never got to try it out.

Hmm. Now I feel as if I am not the real Armageddon player... because I never tried the Byn and because I seriously don't plan it.
Why should everyone try the Byn? Are they supposed to try everything then? I feel Noble Houses are the "must" to try before Arm 2. Does it give me the right to jump on every newbie claiming he SHOULD try it, no matter what he enjoys to do? I doubt.
I think all advices about what EVERYONE SHOULD do are kind of useless. Some might adore the Byn, some might hate it. Armageddon is about possibilities, it gives everyone chance to find the "exactly this I wanted to try" position. Byn is NOT for everyone.

The only thing about Armageddon which EVERYONE SHOULD try is, IMHO, play Armageddon.

[Jherlen]

If there was one clan that I think was best for newbies to join, it'd definitely be the Byn. I haven't played in it, but I've played in other clans, and I think I can safely say the Byn experience would probably give better training to true newbies who need it.

I'm sure it's not for everyone - people who want to play social roles usually get directed towards the aide/bard route (or the Atrium, when it was open), and merchants/crafters can usually find work with Salarr/Kadius. It would be cool if the Byn would hire a socialite or two to negotiate contracts, so that scruffy Byn sarges don't have to meet with nobles directly... that'd give more social players a better way to get in on the Byn thing too. A successful Byn unit could even hire an in-house armorcrafter or tailor to equip their guys with crappy stuff that's easily replaceable, to be more open to merchant types. Maybe if I ever play a Byn sarge, I'll do that...

Really though, the advice to give newbies is "join a clan with an active and tolerant leader, and helpful PCs to learn from." Sometimes that's the Byn, other times it's Salarr or Kurac or some noble's gang. The important thing is that newbies find a crew who will support and train them.

[LoD]

Byn is NOT for everyone.

I keep hearing this.  Mostly from people that have never played there.  But I keep hearing this.

I'm not really sure where people get the notion that the Byn IS for everyone, or why they are taking it so personally.  Did the T'zai-Byn stop you from moving forward with a plot?  Did they suck up a potential recruit from you because someone on the GDB encouraged them to apply with the Byn instead of with a Noble or Merchant House?  Do the Sergeants give you condescending glances and tell you that that YOUR fee is 300 'sid AND an apology for being ugly?

If players want to advocate a particular clan as being newbie friendly - why does that harm you?  If players feel that their experience with the Byn most embodied the gritty and roughneck "feel" of Zalanthas "for them" -- why does that insult you?  You're all bright rays of sunshine.  Why do people feel the need to attack the regular praise and good comments players seem to have toward the T'zai-Byn or the experience?

No one is belittling your clan, experience, or worth as a player.  Why not return the favor?

-LoD

[Folker]

I keep trying to join Byn and keep failing. Either I end up pissing Byn off before deciding to join it, or someone else coming to an obviously better offer ICly (Even though OOCly I hoped to join the Byn). In the end ... I never tried Byn out, and yet I always wanted to.

[Synthesis]

Ha, yeah...I have a -lot- of trouble justifying a decision to join the Byn when there's almost always a merchant or noble house dangling a fat paysack in my face, at a whole lot less risk to life and limb.

[Gimfalisette]

Why should everyone try the Byn? Are they supposed to try everything then?

Actually, yes. I think everyone SHOULD try everything. Those who've never played in Tuluk, or Allanak, or the Labyrinth, or wherever should give those things a serious, committed try. The playerbase tends to get really wrapped up in, "Well, I like this one thing, and I don't like those other things. Plus everyone who plays over THERE is an ignorant asshole." We all have our comfort zones, sure, but I think the game benefits, and we benefit, when we stretch ourselves and try The New. A year and a half ago, I thought I'd "never" want to play in the 'rinth, and I'd "never" want to play in Allanak, and I'd "never" want to play a combat-oriented character, and etc etc, and I'm really happy I got over my negativity and gave some areas of play a true shot.

[X-D]

I agree with Gimf completly.

I've played pretty much everywhere and every thing...cept for the rinth. And I do not regret it.

[Rhyden]

Those who can't stand their roleplay being interrupted regularly by use of the OOC command should probably not join the Byn.

I'd say the Byn is one of the clans that interrupts the least with the OOC command. I've found it much more prevalent in other clans.

And when the OOC command -is- used in the Byn, it's usually to help new players along their way, which is a much better use for the command than I've seen it used in other clans (no naming names).

[BlackMagic0]

I was in for a good amount of time..

And the OOC command was almost -never- used. Yes.. For new people to go "OOC: Ask cook help" or such.. And that was it. Nothing else.. NO random OOC shit or crap.. I barely seen OOC used when I was in the byn. And loved it. My PC did not fully love it, but who says work makes you happy .

[Elgiva]

I can't help it, but I still find talks about what "everyone should" do a little annoying. I certainly know that noble houses are -not- for everyone (no matter it's my favourite role and it could be also a good place for newbies to learn). Now I am getting curious why Byn is so great, cool and absolutely different than other combat-oriented roles that it would be blast for -everyone- to try.

And no, I am not going to try myself. All I know about the Byn tells me I have other things I want to try and which seems much more fun at the moment.

[Elgiva]

Heh, my boyfriend just told me that there is an interesting theory about difference between US and Eastern Europe mentality when it comes to words "everyone should". This theory says (and thinking about it in depth I am inclined to agree with it) that Eastern Europe people take words "everyone should" much more negatively than US people do (probably because of the history). Thinking about it, it is exactly this combination of words what kind of annoyed me. Interesting, isn't it?

I just had a deep urge to share this

[Barzalene]

He could be right.

[Krath]

Now I am getting curious why Byn is so great, cool and absolutely different than other combat-oriented roles that it would be blast for -everyone- to try.

Try it and find out. 

[Eukelade]

Yeah, guys and girls. 

Come try the Byn.  Come and try it today. 

Really.  Come on in.  I've been waiting for you!

[Mr.B]

In large part, anywhere there are great players in leadership roles, that engage others, and great imms who slave day and night to engage and inspire others to rooooooleplayyy deeper, players should check them out and roleplay there regardless of class/race as long as their actions don't get them murdered.

I could see a merchant in the Byn being a shitty fighter, but a great fucking quartermaster and catch-all equipment specialist. Repairing shields and armor, crafting new ones for fresh runners so they can -actually- afford water. Training with runners, being a disciplinarian watchdog for the sergeants, being a socially savvy and likeable bastard for the diligent work he does do, and gains influence and knowledge for it.

The scrawny pickpocket could be a Sergeant's best in-house spy, and shady work dealer if he wanted to, and was smart about getting such work done. He could be a social scout for his unit, he could perform inspections on his fellow soldiers for his sergeant with an all-seeing street-eyeball, or be the unit's mascot you name it.

Get past coded skillset thinking, give your character some personality and you'll have fun no matter what.

[IntuitiveApathy]

Get past coded skillset thinking, give your character some personality and you'll have fun no matter what.

I firmly believe that this statement applies anywhere in the game.

[Gunnerblaster]

I view the Byn as the newbie-help guild. I don't know why but that's always been the place, when trying to get someone addicted to ARM, to 'guide' a new player to.

Hell, my first PC was a Bynner.

[Riev]

Straight up, the Byn is great for anyone just getting into the game. Chances are, if you have never played Arm, and you roll a Noble's Aide or something... you might be a little lost. If, however, you decide on a Warrior because the helpfile for warrior even says "Warriors are the easiest persons to employ" which might be enticing.

Fact is, I -still- join the Byn with combat-oriented classes, only now I try to get some experience -first- so I can lord it over all the other recruits.

I'm going to say this: Some of my MOST fun experiences in Armageddon to date, have been on missions out with the Byn, and interacting with the Sarges. Don't knock the Byn down, its my love!

[Rindan]

The fact that the Byn is a great way to get n00bs into the game, IMO, has absolutely nothing to do with the way the clan is set up, the schedules, or any of these things.  What makes the Byn a great clan for n00bs (and everyone really) is that it generally has a very large player base.  That is pretty much it.  The Byn has a large and consistent player base, and so it is generally pretty safe to shove n00bs in that direction.  Nothing kills it for a n00b worse than joining a clan for life and having that clan be inactive.  You got lost, have no direction, and are stuck with a shitty job all by yourself that you can't leave without getting pwn3d for deserting.

What makes a good n00b clan is lots of interaction.  Lots of interaction keep people interest and insures that things "happen" to them.  I know that my first "good" character that made me love this game was indeed a Byner.  The combat had absolutely nothing to do with it.  In fact, I found the combat generally dull.  What made me love the game was that the Byn was stuffed full of people and there was constant internal conflict.  There were always personality clashes, we were always getting into trouble, and in general "stuff" was always happening. 

Before that, I tried to join House Borsail.  My experience from House almost made me dump the game.  As a total n00b I managed to finder a leader, join, and then had no clue what the hell to do after that.  I didn't interact with many people, and didn't know what the hell to do in my off time (this was before bars actually had bars... if you can believe it).

I would feel safe recommending any active clan, the problem is that the Byn is the most active.  Not to divert too far off a tangent, but my biggest fear with 2.arm and all this babbling about independents is that we lose clans like the Byn that are always active and that player density thins.

[alger]

I recently tried to get into the Byn and got rejected!  Staff said it was not for me... well I'm twisting words but yeah... it happened!

On a more serious note, I tried joining the Byn when I was much newer than I am now and well to be honest I didn't like it very much.  Not to say that it sucked completely, like the beatings I got from fellow recruits like Tarq and all was enjoyable to a certain extent.  Problem was, the amount of interaction was actually quite little (off peaker) and somewhat substandard to a certain extent.  Not that I'm dissing anybody else's roleplay, it's just that I found that if I was stuck with a majority of players who were also trying to learn the game I didn't learn as much as I wanted.  It is actually somewhat odd because after that, I made a 'rinthi and I found that I learned so much more there.  Mainly because I had much more space to satisfy my curiosities and was surrounded by a lot more experienced players which made me realize how deep characters can become.

Of course, I'm not saying that the Byn sucks.  Usually all places have its up and downs and finding an enjoyable experience in a place can, to a certain extent, fall onto chance.  As a place for newbies, it wasn't for me and I would expect it would be the same for some other people.

[Riev]

Actually, IMHO, I think the reason the Byn is so good for new-ish players is that it teaches emotes. If you have an active Sergeant or Troopers, they'll usually help you out with your "chores" that you have to do, which involves a lot of emoting, so it kind of gets you in the habit.


Or at least, it did for me, but I'll be damned if I ever remember the difference between ^ and %

[Ghost]

Not to divert too far off a tangent, but my biggest fear with 2.arm and all this babbling about independents is that we lose clans like the Byn that are always active and that player density thins.

I believe after a short while something resembling the Byn will be formed by PCs in Arm2.  There was a time with no Byn in arm1, and players did create the Byn.  Perhaps having all the options in their hands, players will tend to go for independent adventures more often than they would seek fun in a clan, that might make Arm2 Byn a little less fun.  But I think we will not know until we see the original game.

[Akaramu]

Not to divert too far off a tangent, but my biggest fear with 2.arm and all this babbling about independents is that we lose clans like the Byn that are always active and that player density thins.

My greatest fear as well, I especially fear it will kill clan play for off-peakers. My guess would be that during off peak, close to all active PCs will do independant stuff and rarely be seen, and that only during peak hours some clan play happens.

[Barzalene]

I believe after a short while something resembling the Byn will be formed by PCs in Arm2.  There was a time with no Byn in arm1, and players did create the Byn.

There is validity to this statement however, I wonder if we have different expectations for Arm.2 than we would if we were playing a game that was starting from scratch. When Arm.1 was starting it didn't have 15 years of culture and fifteen years of developed standards for a newbie to confront.

I have only been playing for six  years, so I'm not an authority. For the older players, before the Byn, was Arm more accessible to newbies? Maybe the Byn developed (in this capacity as a ccatch place for new players, not as a mercenary group per se) with the need for a newbie immersive clan. Will Arm.2 open with that need?

[IntuitiveApathy]

I have only been playing for six  years, so I'm not an authority. For the older players, before the Byn, was Arm more accessible to newbies? Maybe the Byn developed (in this capacity as a ccatch place for new players, not as a mercenary group per se) with the need for a newbie immersive clan.

Somewhere, Krrx is devising a real nasty way to kill your hapless character.

[psionic fungus]

I remember not trying the Byn out for a long while because I considered it the 'Mud School' of Armageddon.

Krrx was certainly no slouch, though... And when I did give the Byn a chance it was certainly worthwhile.

[Barzalene]

I have only been playing for six  years, so I'm not an authority. For the older players, before the Byn, was Arm more accessible to newbies? Maybe the Byn developed (in this capacity as a ccatch place for new players, not as a mercenary group per se) with the need for a newbie immersive clan.

Somewhere, Krrx is devising a real nasty way to kill your hapless character.

I'll stay off the shield wall.