Duels - are they legal?

[Kalden]

I'm just wondering if duels are legal in the cities, and why or why not. I realize that I could ask a templar, but I don't really want to sound like a complete dumbass ICly.

So, if two consenting individuals want to settle their differences by the sword, can it be done legally, as it was done in Europe and the United States up until the 20th century?

There is no hard coded ability that checks for consent before a fight. So regardless of IC motives it will be illlegal. Unless perhaps an imm or templar around considers it un-illegal and removes the 'WANTED' flags immedietely.

However, duels are actually done alot that Ive seen, out on the outer circle, 1 south of the gate so the guards inside dont come kill you.

Also, if neither of you is afraid of a little jail-time and loss of weapons for winning, your character might decide the jailtime worth the preservation of their honor, or whatever they're fighting for.

[Fedaykin]

Additionally, I'm sure officials from most governments would be happy to set it up where you and your opponent could duel in that city's arena/pit respectively, for the enjoyment of all.

[Savak]

"Duels" as such are a foreign entity on Zalanthas, as the term itself smacks of medieval stereotypes with honorable knights squaring off to win a chance to kiss some whiny princess' dainty hand.

On the other hand, if you and whoever else wanna slug it out for some reason, by all means, feel free to sort it out with the local law enforcement if you're of a mind.  But it should be more of a "I'm gonna cut yer sorry ass" rather than "I challenge thee to an honorable fight, let us finish our wine and stroll outside to settle the matter like gentlemen."  Not much in the way of rules in a purposeful Zalanthan brawl -- more like the bouts Conan faced during his days as a 'gladiator' slave.  People who go around challenging others & getting all highbrow on Zalanthas tend to gain little more than a big bullseye in the center of their backs.

Zalanthans primarily fight for material gain, necessary for survival.  Occasionally for glory, as in the arena -- but remember that while we might think Tyson in his prime was entertaining to watch (perhaps more so out of his prime) and suffices as a celebrity draw, it doesn't mean ppl think he's cool.  One of many reasons slaves, beasts, & criminals are just about the only ppl who fight there.

People in different regions/clans have slightly different notions about this.  But, what I'd like to avoid is the term and its associated medieval-honor'ishness.

-Savak

it doesn't mean ppl think he's cool

Sorry, I just had to see if anyone else picked up on the 'ppl' in there, when later on in the post, he spelled it out in full. I'm sorry, had to do it  :twisted:

As far as people fighting each other, all I've seen is people taking it outside the gates, because really, in any of the taverns, the soldiers are right there, or a room away, so you don't have much chance to fight before you're hauled off (Or so it used to be).

[Delirium]

For settling a grudge or 'mine is bigger than yours' matches, I prefer brawling/wrestling. It leaves plenty of room for entertaining emotes, too. If your character truly hates someone and want them dead, then I figure that's when the weapons get broken out for a fight to the death.

[Armaddict]

I thought that an honor code existed in game with a certain military house.  I had a character with them who ended up dying because he dueled a pair of militia characters outside the gate, won, and then died when they claimed it wasn't a duel at all

[gfair]

"Duels" as such are a foreign entity on Zalanthas, as the term itself smacks of medieval stereotypes with honorable knights squaring off to win a chance to kiss some whiny princess' dainty hand.

People in different regions/clans have slightly different notions about this.  But, what I'd like to avoid is the term and its associated medieval-honor'ishness.

-Savak

Perhaps, but it also reminds me about "you and me at the ponds after school" fights where two guys who didn't like each other would show up, each of their own will, and go at it.  That should happen all the time in Arm, but whether or not it would be to the death, I don't know.  While life is precious, maiming someone should be tolerated - the weaker your competition, the better the chance you have of winning resources.  I've personally seen several duels in the game, and at least one more in the Nakki Arena.

But I believe this issue has been discussed in the past, and one suggestion was to have it setup in an Arena, and the other obvious suggestion, as has been suggested throughout history and on this post is "Wanna step outside?"

[Angela Christine]

So, if two consenting individuals want to settle their differences by the sword, can it be done legally, as it was done in Europe and the United States up until the 20th century?

Yeah, I think you can consent to fight and then do it, as long as you do it in a discrete area.  Even where duels were legal, they were usually held out of town, except for in westerns where they were held on main street.    So if you hold your fight outside the city, on private property or (with a templar's permission) in the arena you should be ok.  

On the other hand, Templars have the IC authority to make up new laws as they go along.  There may be a written set of laws somewhere, but commoners can't read so Templars can pardon and punish at their own whim, and there is no court of appeal.  A Templar could make up a new "Bob" tax where everyone named Bob has to pay an extra 200 a year in taxes, or he could declare the name "Bob" to be illegal and exile everone named Bob from the city.  So a Templar could declare your fight to be illegal before, durring or after; even if you had permission.  He could tell you there is a 500 coin duel tax, or a fee for having the blood cleaned off the streets.  Remember Judge Dread saying, "I AM the Law!"?  Templars are like that.  Your best bet is to either get permission (and likely pay a fee) before hand, or hold your duel in a location where the Templarate is unlikely to notice it.

AC

[Stroker]

I had a duel once outside the city gates. Got the crap kicked out of me .... and now my char is planning his sweet refenge *shifts his eyes back and forth suspiciously*

[Dan]

That comment would best be kept off of the boards. Now whoever you dueled knows that you are gunning for them. He will expect it ic becuase he found out ooc.

[gfair]

That comment would best be kept off of the boards. Now whoever you dueled knows that you are gunning for them. He will expect it ic becuase he found out ooc.

Maybe, but then again this is very vague in reference - which gates?  Which city? Was it a duel, or just a fight?  Was it even a PC? - it could very well have been an NPC reference he was making, there's nothing to confirm or deny that.

However, it can still be broadly interpreted and that person could tighten up their security over the next little while.

[creeper386]

"Duels" as such are a foreign entity on Zalanthas, as the term itself smacks of medieval stereotypes with honorable knights squaring off to win a chance to kiss some whiny princess' dainty hand.

Well, the problem with this is that misconception right there. Duels were also fought quite often to the death, and normally has little to do with "honorable knights" but people getting drunk and running there mouth and such. Also it was a legal way to kill someone. Alot of people don't like some person in authority or something, legally they can't do much but they scrounge up enough money and hire some swordsman to challenge him to a duel to the death.

And even if it does have to do with honorable fighters, it does say most warriors are honorable people. Although, in my opinion, it's a broad statement and shouldn't be in the documents, most people well have some twisted sense of honor, even in Zalanthas.

The ideal of a "friendly" duel probably wouldn't exist on Armageddon, in my opinion the idea of dueling would still exist. *Shrug*

Creeper

[Kalden]

I strongly agree with creeper. Most duels would have to do more with ego than honor, and I don't think honor would really be foreign concept in Zalanthas, either.

The traditional phrase of departure, rallying cry, or watch phrase is: .With honor.. Sometimes, more formally it is .Honor above all..

That is from the Salarri clan webpage, but I don't think it's that IC sensitive, and adds a little to the discussion.

When your a badass warrior, and when you don't like someone for whatever reason, you don't have to stab them in the back in a dark alley. That's what backstabbing thieves do, and nobody trusts or really likes a backstabber, except maybe elves. Instead, you show off your skills in a public spectacle so everyone can "oo" and "ahh" over you. That's mostly where the honor concept comes in. You show that you don't have to backstab, because you are more skilled than that.

I think honor is a basic part of every man. If someone insults your dignity by making fun of you or taking advantage of you, they are insulting your honor(hmm, me disagreeing with Savak a little could be insulting his honor). No man likes getting ripped off or getting laughed at. So, you challenge the guy to a fight, if he says no, he loses face and you can beat him up later when you have the chance.

Thanks for the responses, and I think I'll look into dueling people at the local arena if the chance comes up.

Zalanthans primarily fight for material gain, necessary for survival. Occasionally for glory, as in the arena -- but remember that while we might think Tyson in his prime was entertaining to watch (perhaps more so out of his prime) and suffices as a celebrity draw, it doesn't mean ppl think he's cool. One of many reasons slaves, beasts, & criminals are just about the only ppl who fight there.

The gladiators were slaves in Rome, but they were still hugely popular. I think people would enjoy watching someone skilled and respect them, and I think that everyone wants to be recognized for their abilities.

[Fedaykin]

Just thought I toss in an exact reference from the helpfiles for discussion sake:

Although motivated by innumerable goals, there are a few commonalities among warriors. In nearly all warriors there exists some notion of honour and fairness, and often a vague conception of glory.

[Gorobei]

I dislike that quotation greatly.  It's been annoying to me since I read the helpfiles as a fresh-off-the-web newbie.
I can think of many, many concepts for warriors that depart from that personality, and they're mostly the best ones.

[Delirium]

I think its the term 'duel' itself that Savak was mostly objecting to, which I can certainly understand.