Arrows shot at you, Your wielding a shield.

[Rogerthat]

  What do you think.. OF arrows being shot and being stuck into YOUR shield instead of knocking it away... You know? Could crack you shield right down the middle if shot at and blocked with the shield.. You could pull them out, Or have a armor-repair man force them out.. What about this idea? Good?

[RogueGunslinger]

... There is something to be said about you.

Don't you think you could have discussed this in the other topic you started?

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Yeh ... that said, I love the idea.

[Rarsh]

I actually thought that the ease with which arrows hit my shield-wielding PC was because I was missing something, code-wise, and OOCed an unfortunate clan-member to ask what I was doing wrong!

Seems to me that shields would be more effective against arrows than just about anything else--instead of, as seems to be the case to my extremely inexperienced self, the reverse. I'm sure many here know more about the history of warfare than I, but weren't shields pretty damn effective against archers?

[Yam]

Not really. Depends on the shield/archer/bow.

But it was my understanding that shields were plenty effective in game.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I'm really in favour of having any code that damages armour put in/jacked up.

As it stands, armour can stand up to crazy stupid sorts of attacks and take no/minimal damage the majority of the time.

There are all sorts of benefits for having more fragile armour: making the subclasses that get armour repair useful, creating demand for armour repairing materials/tools, people being able to buy/sell busted armour for cheaper, grittier atmosphere, etc.

So yeah, I'm for arrows sticking in your shield.  Or in your helm, boot, codpiece.  Or cracking that fancy breastplate down the middle.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

They are plenty effective.

That said, once you reach a good level of shield work, you will begin to see just how effective they are.

Don't think that just because you block all of Bob's blows that you will block all of Sandy Scrab's blows, or all of Gerry Gith's arrows. The scale rises, and it is highly unlikely that you are worth a shit with the shield just yet.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm really in favour of having any code that damages armour put in/jacked up.

As it stands, armour can stand up to crazy stupid sorts of attacks and take no/minimal damage the majority of the time.

There are all sorts of benefits for having more fragile armour: making the subclasses that get armour repair useful, creating demand for armour repairing materials/tools, people being able to buy/sell busted armour for cheaper, grittier atmosphere, etc.

So yeah, I'm for arrows sticking in your shield.  Or in your helm, boot, codpiece.  Or cracking that fancy breastplate down the middle.

Absolutely agreed.

[Rarsh]

Don't think that just because you block all of Bob's blows that you will block all of Sandy Scrab's blows, or all of Gerry Gith's arrows. The scale rises, and it is highly unlikely that you are worth a shit with the shield just yet.

Ah. Thanks. That's definitely the problem, then! I guess I assumed that using a shield against arrows would be the easiest option. You know the direction of attack, at least, and an arrow (unlike someone wielding a weapon) doesn't try to evade your shield in mid-flight ... But what I know about shields and arrows is ... nothing. And I know even less about shield code in the game. But I do know that my PC is almost certainly not worth a shit, so that answers -that- question.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Using a shield against an arrow is ... even in real life, going to be hard. First of all, you won't even see the arrow coming. It is just suddenly there, unless it gets shot from a great distance.

Secondly, shieldwork does not take into account the watch code, yet. Morg?

Thirdly, and this is probably the most important thing ... because the arrow can be shot at you from any of four ... no, six directions ... who is to say that your back isn't just turned?

I would love to see the watch-code taken into account in this matter.

[Rarsh]

Using a shield against an arrow is ... even in real life, going to be hard. First of all, you won't even see the arrow coming. It is just suddenly there, unless it gets shot from a great distance.

I was thinking that the -first- arrow could really be nasty, but the fifth arrow might have trouble getting past your shield ... except I didn't see a way to take that into account. Neat idea with 'watch.'

[Dalmeth]

Keep in mind that most people in the game use shields that aren't much bigger than a car tire.  Start using a shield that's half your height, and you might see a difference in ability to block arrows.

[Maybe42or54]

Such as that one dwarf a while ago that carried a tower shield larger than my human self. How that worked, I don't know, but they would emote sticking it in the ground and it took a shit load of arrows.

[Gimfalisette]

Rarsh, isn't this something you could undoubtedly ask the more veteran fighters in your clan?

Everyone, can we keep discussions like this to actual code suggestions stuff and stop veering into "find out IC" territory? We are really doing a lot of this lately, and it bums me out to see newbies like Rarsh being told stuff on the forums, rather than doing the work of finding out in game.

[Fathi]

I'm really in favour of having any code that damages armour put in/jacked up.

As it stands, armour can stand up to crazy stupid sorts of attacks and take no/minimal damage the majority of the time.

There are all sorts of benefits for having more fragile armour: making the subclasses that get armour repair useful, creating demand for armour repairing materials/tools, people being able to buy/sell busted armour for cheaper, grittier atmosphere, etc.

So yeah, I'm for arrows sticking in your shield.  Or in your helm, boot, codpiece.  Or cracking that fancy breastplate down the middle.

I'd like this idea a lot more if a lot of the armour repair recipes weren't a little restrictive.

You have a used shield made from a gurth shell. In order to repair that shield, you need... a whole gurth shell? I'd love to see more patches and resins and sloppier attempts to fix things rather than "you replace the entire front of your shield and it's basically a whole new shield with no damage whatsoever."

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Gim, are you serious?

Come on. The IC info worries are getting a little out of hand. Telling a newbie, or anyone, for that matter, that as your skill gets better, you can do different things, or that the size of your shield may matter, really isn't IC info. The same applies for any skill. As it gets better, you can do more.

That just does not qualify as IC info, really.

That said, Rarsh, yes, you could prolly get an answer from veterans IC. And sometimes, it is more fun to ask IC than on the GDB.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

And Fathi, I think that just the addition of a 'patched' flag for armor would reflect that concept, which is, I think, an excellent idea.

[Gimfalisette]

Gim, are you serious?

Come on. The IC info worries are getting a little out of hand. Telling a newbie, or anyone, for that matter, that as your skill gets better, you can do different things, or that the size of your shield may matter, really isn't IC info. The same applies for any skill. As it gets better, you can do more.

That just does not qualify as IC info, really.

That said, Rarsh, yes, you could prolly get an answer from veterans IC. And sometimes, it is more fun to ask IC than on the GDB.

Yes, I am totally and completely serious.

I found out what a shield can do against arrows by seeing it done IN GAME. And I was wowed.

Since then, I have seen other characters/players be wowed as well. IN GAME.

I do not think that finding out on the forums will provide anyone that kind of "wow" moment.

That is why I am bummed out. And I mean, I am seriously bummed out about this. Rarsh could have found out IN GAME. But now that possibility for a newbie "wow" moment of finding out something IC is gone forever.

Telling a newbie where to find water being sold, and where to get a waterskin, and what the code syntax is for filling that waterskin, is one thing. This helps abate newbie frustration and get them into the game.

Taking away a newbie's "wow" moments by providing advanced game information OOCly is just really depressing.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Hrm.

I suppose that you may have a point.

I just ... eh. I still think he is going to have a wow moment when he or she first manages to have that first awesome moment, whether they know it is coming or not.

That said, I shall think more before I answer questions from now on. Even if it is not something I think is really part of that OOC/IC info, I'll consider my response, because I guess that the wow moment will be enhanced.

[Gimfalisette]

Venomz, you rock.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I'm not saying that you are always going to be happy with my answers. I am just saying that I will think about it before I post. I know perfectly well that I have not infringed on the Staff's notions of OOC/IC infor yet. But on the other hand, I could say even less while still at least answering the question.

So, I will think about it before I post.

[Gimfalisette]

I knew what you meant. The fact that you are committing to thinking about things and carefully weighing options before you post, is why you rock.

[Rarsh]

Rarsh, isn't this something you could undoubtedly ask the more veteran fighters in your clan?

Not really, no. My areas of interest and my PC's areas of interest diverge pretty significantly. And I -do- try to only ask questions about the former (or things that my PC would already know--cultural stuff) on the GDB.

But I take your point, and I'd hate to think that my questions are undermining the 'wow' moments of people who enjoy that sorta thing. Hardly fair to ruin someone else's fun because my PC isn't interested in asking. So thanks for the reminder. I'll try to be more careful, and apologies to anyone who ran across this and learned something they wished they hadn't ...

[Gimfalisette]

What if I, the player, am interested in learning more about the Nilazi guild? Should I ask on the forums? Should I try to find out IC?

Sometimes you just have to curb your interest for the sake of the game, other players, and yourself too.

Or, alternately, you can change your PC's interests and personality so that what you want to find out, your character is motivated to find out. People do change. Characters can too.

[Cerelum]

Or, alternately, you can change your PC's interests and personality so that what you want to find out, your character is motivated to find out. People do change. Characters can too.

Unless they are a dwarf

J-Rod

[Marauder Moe]

Or, alternately, you can change your PC's interests and personality so that what you want to find out, your character is motivated to find out. People do change. Characters can too.

Unless they are a dwarf

J-Rod

Nonsense.  It's perfectly reasonable that a dwarf's interest may suddenly shift towards magick, sorcery, or some other new subject if they decide such knowledge/power could eventually help them complete their focus.

[Rarsh]

What if I, the player, am interested in learning more about the Nilazi guild? Should I ask on the forums? Should I try to find out IC?

I always thought that this depends on whether the thing you wanna know would be common knowledge. The notion that, say, shields can block arrows; that bigger shields block arrows better than smaller ones; and that the better you are at using a shield, the better you are at ... using a shield, don't seem to be more than common knowledge. In fact, that's one reason I asked here. Because even if you -couldn't- block an arrow with a shield due to some code issue, I'd expect other PCs to tell mine, 'Of course a shield can block an arrow, you idiot! You think they can fly right through kank-shell? You gotta hold them high, like this. Present a smaller target.'

There are code limitations that only make sense OOC. Can be hard for a newbie to know which of the limitations in-game are for IC reasons, and which for OOC reasons.

Sometimes you just have to curb your interest for the sake of the game, other players, and yourself too.

This is why I apologized.

Or, alternately, you can change your PC's interests and personality so that what you want to find out, your character is motivated to find out. People do change. Characters can too.

I hope I never change a character to satisfy an OOC curiosity.

[RogueGunslinger]

Rarsh just put to words what my feeble mind could not. Thanks Rarsh, that was exactly what I was trying to post for the past twenty minutes, but couldn't word correctly.

[Gimfalisette]

I always thought that this depends on whether the thing you wanna know would be common knowledge.

If it's not in the help files, then you don't have any way of knowing whether it is common knowledge or not. Even if it IS in the help files, it still may not be common knowledge. Even if it is common knowledge, maybe your character doesn't know it, or shouldn't know it. Here you have gone and asked something that is not common knowledge either inside or outside the game, AND is not something your character should know without asking ICly.

Stuff like this just should not be asked on the forums. Period. Email the imms if you want to know, so they can decide whether to inform you.

Otherwise, sorry, but if you're not ever going to be willing to change your character due to an OOC curiosity, then you are going to have to be willing to remain unsatisfied, and probably sometimes bored. Too much "sacredness of character concept" will trap you in a box, eventually. But that's another topic.

[brytta.leofa]

I hope I never change a character to satisfy an OOC curiosity.

Our characters are created in the first place to satisfy our own out-of-character motivations--a role that we think would be fun to play, for whatever reason.  It's okay for the creative process of character design to continue through the character's lifetime, as long as it's not unrealistic for the setting or self-contradictory.

We work within some fairly strict guidelines, but we're writing a story, not a history.

[Maybe42or54]

Well, Gimf, what Rarsh originally -suggested- is that it would be cool if shields could block arrows. He didn't -ask- if you can be an arrow catcher with your shield.
Rarsh, it is a great idea, but you are late, it is already in the game.

More on this in the thread you created, Gimf.

[Rarsh]

We work within some fairly strict guidelines, but we're writing a story, not a history.

I'm novelist by profession, believe me, I know about writing stories!

And of course a character can, and should, evolve. But--to me at least (I didn't say I hope nobody -else- ever changes a character to satisfy OOC curiosity!)--a player directing that change for reasons of OOC curiosity is an egregious case of authorial intrusion. Like when you're reading a novel and suddenly it veers into a political screed, grinding some personal axe of the author's. It's inelegant. I personally dislike it and hope I avoid the temptation; that's all I'm saying.

[jstorrie]

I'm surprised this isn't in the help files, actually.

We are not surprised that it is not in the help files.



Because we didn't put it there.

-Staff.

[Gimfalisette]

Did you email the imms to find out whether they consider it IC or advanced code information?

[Tisiphone]

I'm surprised this isn't in the help files, actually.

[IC info]

So use the request tool to petition the imms to include it, instead of writing it on the GDB.

[jstorrie]

I don't see how it can possibly be secret info that putting a large object between you and arrows will keep the arrows from hitting you.

[Cerelum]

I don't see how it can possibly be secret info that putting a large object between you and arrows will keep the arrows from hitting you.

Agreed?  Can we maybe agree that the last few outbreaks of moderation are a bit outta hand?

If you shoot an arrow at me, and I have a big thick ass piece of wood held up, chances are I'm going to deflect or block that arrow.

J-Rod.

[jstorrie]

I do agree. I guess the staff do not, and I am not interested in derailing this thread with a discussion of whether some moderation is draconian or not, so instead I will just say this: shields have been traditionally used by armies on earth to defend against ranged attacks. Armageddon is generally coded so that the basics follow common sense. And the helpfiles on parry and shield use do say that using a shield will help you block incoming blows, and don't specify that ranged attacks are excluded from that. So if you come under fire from archers, spearchuckers or whatever and can't get cover, the reasonable thing to do would be to get behind a solid shield.

[Tisiphone]

I do agree. I guess the staff do not, and I am not interested in derailing this thread with a discussion of whether some moderation is draconian or not, so instead I will just say this: shields have been traditionally used by armies on earth to defend against ranged attacks. Armageddon is generally coded so that the basics follow common sense. And the helpfiles on parry and shield use do say that using a shield will help you block incoming blows, and don't specify that ranged attacks are excluded from that. So if you come under fire from archers, spearchuckers or whatever and can't get cover, the reasonable thing to do would be to get behind a solid shield.

I heartily approve this post.

[Southie]

Re: OOC curiousities and finding out IC vs. OOC...

There's plenty of stuff I the player am OOCly curious about. Some of it impacts or affects my character, a lot doesn't. The stuff that does, I can find out ICly with him, if I make an effort. For the rest.. well.. I'd rather just wait and find out with another PC. Not every character can uncover everything, and since we the players interact with the game through our characters, sometimes we just gotta wait.

Patience is a virtue.

[IntuitiveApathy]

I'm really in favour of having any code that damages armour put in/jacked up.

As it stands, armour can stand up to crazy stupid sorts of attacks and take no/minimal damage the majority of the time.

There are all sorts of benefits for having more fragile armour: making the subclasses that get armour repair useful, creating demand for armour repairing materials/tools, people being able to buy/sell busted armour for cheaper, grittier atmosphere, etc.

So yeah, I'm for arrows sticking in your shield.  Or in your helm, boot, codpiece.  Or cracking that fancy breastplate down the middle.

I'd like this idea a lot more if a lot of the armour repair recipes weren't a little restrictive.

You have a used shield made from a gurth shell. In order to repair that shield, you need... a whole gurth shell? I'd love to see more patches and resins and sloppier attempts to fix things rather than "you replace the entire front of your shield and it's basically a whole new shield with no damage whatsoever."

Absolutely!  Imagine if you could take that cracked gurth shell shield and use the spare piece of kank chitin you've got to fix it up and end up with a gurth shell shield patched with kank chitin?  The patched shield might not be as strong as a brand new one, but it's a lot better than what you had before.  Resins, replacement parts, evidence of stitching.. there's all sorts of places we could go.

[Yam]

Nevermind. I was silly.

[Simple]

Someone made a good point about the 6 directions you could get hit from earlier..and the watch skill, seems to make sense... although you could be watching north and shielding east against that spear throwing raider.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I made that point.

But for all I know, it might already be in the code. 

[Cerelum]

I just know I'm going to be walking in the desert one day soon to see a bynner shooting an arrow at another bynner and then scream:

Bynner with bow: Told ya you couldn't block it!  Hahaha, ain't that funny Smudge?  Smudge...  Smudge!!!  Oh no, I better get that arrow outta him before the sergeant sees it.

J-Rod

[helix]

I do agree. I guess the staff do not, and I am not interested in derailing this thread with a discussion of whether some moderation is draconian or not, so instead I will just say this: shields have been traditionally used by armies on earth to defend against ranged attacks. Armageddon is generally coded so that the basics follow common sense. And the helpfiles on parry and shield use do say that using a shield will help you block incoming blows, and don't specify that ranged attacks are excluded from that. So if you come under fire from archers, spearchuckers or whatever and can't get cover, the reasonable thing to do would be to get behind a solid shield.

QFT.

Common sense should not be "IC".

[Cerelum]

QFT.

Common sense should not be "IC".

I often feel like we are yelled at because of this.  Common Sense is not IC.  I feel that just because some people can't make small leaps in logic to fill in the gaps, don't yell at the rest of us cause we are smarter...

J-Rod

[helix]

Definitely don't take it as 'yelled at'. Every interaction I've had with the staff, both ICly and OOCly, has been polite, courteous, and professional.

That said, I don't always agree.

[RogueGunslinger]

QFT.

Common sense should not be "IC".

I often feel like we are yelled at because of this.  Common Sense is not IC.  I feel that just because some people can't make small leaps in logic to fill in the gaps, don't yell at the rest of us cause we are smarter...

J-Rod

You have certainly not be yelled at. The staff is very much so courteous and very forgiving in terms of how they moderate. And I don't think I would appreciate the general 'piss and moan' attitude that you keep giving them. The staff are not out to get you, believe it or not. They are here to help.

That said I agree completely with Jstorrie.

[Cerelum]

QFT.

Common sense should not be "IC".

I often feel like we are yelled at because of this.  Common Sense is not IC.  I feel that just because some people can't make small leaps in logic to fill in the gaps, don't yell at the rest of us cause we are smarter...

J-Rod

You have certainly not be yelled at. The staff is very much so courteous and very forgiving in terms of how they moderate. And I don't think I would appreciate the general 'piss and moan' attitude that you keep giving them. The staff are not out to get you, believe it or not. They are here to help.

That said I agree completely with Jstorrie.

Oh yeah?!  Sanvean called me a dick in an e-mail.  And Nyx said he hoped I died!

Totally joking...

J-Rod

[Yam]

Haha. I thought you were serious.

[Cerelum]

Well they may very well say those things, but they haven't said them to me yet.

*Emote puffs his chest out and struts around*

J-Rod

[Conspiracy Theory]

I'm novelist by profession, believe me, I know about writing stories!

And of course a character can, and should, evolve. But--to me at least (I didn't say I hope nobody -else- ever changes a character to satisfy OOC curiosity!)--a player directing that change for reasons of OOC curiosity is an egregious case of authorial intrusion. Like when you're reading a novel and suddenly it veers into a political screed, grinding some personal axe of the author's. It's inelegant. I personally dislike it and hope I avoid the temptation; that's all I'm saying.

This is very much worth repeating. Some people play out their entire characters' lives like this, just trying to push their characters in the direction of doing X or Y personal motivation without there seeming to be any logical thoughts or motivations behind the actions they're taking.

Props, Rarsh, for putting this better than I could've.