Conflict!

[Vox]

The essence of drama, the life-blood of reformation, the trial of strength, the stage set for chilling victory and glorious defeat...

CONFLICT

After reading a few posts I have been inspired to ask this question to the playerbase: Is there enough conflict and are we doing our part to foster it?

Naatok wrote something recently regarding a character he played who was a prostitute and the schizm he discovered between the attitude of  the virtual Allanaki culture and that of the players behind the PCs within that culture. He said it was 'pretty stupid actually', and it is. Another player wrote in the same thread regarding the extreme possibility that most people will try to convince you of the evils of such a profession and try to get you to mend your ways, again I think Naatok's idiom applies here as well.  Why? Because people are drawing on OOC concepts and trying to apply them IC. I'm drawing two examples from the same thread/topic but I've noticed this trend in other areas as well.

It's a difficult task to try to live fully in the world of Zalanthas when roleplaying but it's one which offers glowing rewards if accomplished. What does this have to do with 'Conflict' you say? Good question.  When we instill 21st century morality into the Post-Apocalyptic land of Armageddon(OOC thinking) we end up sacrificing the life-blood of our precious Drama which makes roleplaying in this environment so interesting in the first place.  The general inclination in today's society is to move away from 'conflict' and live a life of non-involvement, curled up on the couch watching 'Friends' with a glass of pepsi twist. Or participate in 'peace' rallies that end up in violent frays of chaotic civil disobedience, but whose initial purpose was ensure 'non-involvement' in a global arena.  Now, before this turns into a rant about the ills of Real Life let me turn back to Arm and illustrate the very point of this posting.

Racism and slavery exist in Zalanthas in a fierce and hostile way. but also in an engrained and accepted way. In some ways they are not connected in the slightest, in others they are. But in no way are they connected with racism and slavery today.  Granted there is no slavery today, but Jim Crow laws were still in affect in the U.S. thirty or so years ago and they were basically the same thing. The point is, we must see the concepts of slavery and racism through the eyes of a Zalanthian, not an Earthling. (did I just use Earthling in a sentence? sheesh) That does not mean EVERYONE views it in the exact same way, but pretty darn close. To view it another way should brand someone STRANGE by the rest of the populace. Free a slave? What planet are you from? Being kind to an elf? Were you sired by Half-Giants?

The same concept holds for prostitution and spice consumption. They cannot be viewed in the same light we look at drug-use and promiscuity today. Spice is outlawed only in Allanak to my understanding and since Red Storm and Luir's are dedicated whole-heartedly to the distribution and consumption of spice, as well as the newly prospering Tuluk allowing it to exist within Gol Krathu, it would seem that MOST EVERYONE not living in Allanak would be sniffing and smoking a bit of spice quite frequently. Does this happen, sure, but not as much as it should because of OOC thinking.

How many normal PCs are friends with Magicker PCs? Go ahead, raise your hand. Now, in some cases this is totally IC and makes sense... And when I say 'some' I mean 'FEW' and when I say 'FEW' I mean 'a couple.' When Zagren e-mailed me when one of my character's hired on a Nilazi I was given pause.  At the time I felt I had an okay reason for doing so, but in retrospect I think I was just being defensive. Hiring a NILAZI, what the hell was I thinking? Maybe if my character was a Sorc or a Nilazi himself such a thing -might- make sense, but it just doesn't make sense when you're a pick-pocket.  heh. OOC I was thinking, "AWESOME, this crew is going to rock!" and allowing such thinking to influence my IC decision. I wasn't man enough to admit it at the time, but Zagren, you were dead-on in feeling disappointed. The scene should have played out differently and would have been tons better if it did. Live and learn.

Conflict must exist on every level to keep the pulse of Zalanthas beating healthily.. individually, interpersonally, and globally. As RPers I think it is our duty to ensure that conflict lives and pulsates through every facet of this game. We should encourage it and foster it.  The conflict between elves, half-elves and humans;  between the Merchant Houses; between North and South; between normal folk and Magickers; between kumiss and citron!

We must fight the tendency to move to a state of calm and acceptance. Treaties exist between rival tribes and peoples, certainly. But is that an end to conflict? never.  Should it be? no. It is a band-aid covering a festering wound which needs only an impetuous individual within one of the parties to tear off. Will Allanak ever free it's slaves? Sure, when it's streets are paved for hydro-electric cars to travel over.

It's been a slow learning curve for me. But through my years here I've discovered that the fun I was having was equally proportional to the amount I was allowing myself to live ICly through my character.  OOC thinking is the bane of our IC lives, people. It lessens the 'conflict' and often destroys it. Without the conflict there is no drama. Without the drama there is no Armageddon.  Without Armageddon there is.... only Zuul, re-runs of 'Friends' and pepsi twist... Not pleasant.  :twisted:

I don't think there's can ever be enough conflict AND I don't think we're doing all we can to foster what little of it we have.

Well, here endeth my rant. What say the rest of you? Is there enough conflict and are we doing our part to foster it?

[EvilRoeSlade]

I agree with you with every strand of my being, Vox.  One problem that I have personally (in Allanak, anyway) is that it is very difficult to get a job with somebody who doesn't have one or more magicker employees.  If you have your heart set on joining the clan anyway, then it becomes likely that you will accept, or even worse, befriend a magicker.  I would really like to see a noble or templar (one with active playing times, sneer) who is just as distrustful of magickers as the next guy, and won't hire one on just like they were any other ordinary employee.

On that same note, I think that magickers who are in a clan shouldn't be treated the way they tend to be.  I'd like to see them as the creepy guy who everybody avoids, and who the boss occasionally whisks away to a private room to have a mysterious conversation with.

When it comes to conflict, I generally notice enough of it.  But usually I get the distinct feeling that without the presence of my character, it would have never been present.  Sometime it seems as if everybody was getting along joyfully, holding hands and dancing in circular patterns until -I- came along.  Especially in Tuluk, heh.

[Fedaykin]

Good post.  I'd like to just add my thoughts on the magicker aspect, particularly in the North, more specifically in Tuluk.

Frankly, I don't think hatred and fear of magickers is quite at the level it should be in Tuluk.  Sure, for the most part everyone hates and dislikes magickers.  Rarely, though, do I ever see hate and fear so rabidly engrained in Tuluki citizens as I'd expect it to be.

From the History document:

1450
A terrifying and presumably magickal cataclysm strikes the city-state of Tuluk, leaving it to be nothing more than a pile of rubble and ruins. Over seventy thousand people are killed that day in what has since come to be known as the Fall of Tuluk.

An entire city-state destroyed.  Seventy thousand people killed in one day; roughly a quarter of the city and North's entire population.  The dynasty of Tuluk shattered.  Now only after an entire King's Age is Tuluk finally getting back on its feet.  Why?  Magick.

To use a somewhat related real life situation, look at 9/11.  Terrorists killed roughly four thousand people that day in a society of greater than two hundred and fifty million.  Despite the relative size, this incident has led the U.S. to rabidly go after terrorists all over the world.  Now picture if they had destroyed all of New York and killed more than a million people, or alternately for society wide comparison, if they had managed to kill 60 million, a quarter of our entire nation. How rabid would we be going after terrorists and suspected terrorists then to ensure not only revenge, but to make sure that such a thing never happened again?

Now that Tuluk has risen again more than ever, people live should in fear of history repeating itself.  A fear of everything around you being destroyed and being killed in the blink of an eye due to these destructive magicks should be prevalent in every Tuluki's mind.  Fear.  Intense fear.  That intense fear should cause large mobs to hunt down these evil and destructive magickers with torches and big sticks if necessary, and preferably tear them limb from limb.  Maybe even the occasional falsely accused magicker as well.

This needs to be realistically played out by magickers as well.  I think that relatively equal numbers of people in the North and South are going to be born with elemental ties.  However, I think in Tuluk and the North if someone found out they had such ties they would typically think of it as a curse, and not a gift.  While all magickers would hide their power, I think there would be less actual magickers over all because many would make no attempt to use or develop their powers out of fear of being not just isolated and hated, but outright killed.  For those who do develop their powers or go outside of the city to do so, all but the most powerful magickers should make every effort to never use their powers anywhere even near Tuluk for fear of some lone lumberjack or hunter spotting them and reporting them, causing them to suffer torture and death.

To sum up, in my opinion, Tulukis need to be sure to rabidly fear and hate magickers and anything magick, and even the magickers should be intensely fearful of the consequences of not only their actions, but for what they are.

[Bakha]

To sum up, in my opinion, Tulukis need to be sure to rabidly fear and hate magickers and anything magick, and even the magickers should be intensely fearful of the consequences of not only their actions, but for what they are.

Good post Fedaykin. While I've seen some good prejudice against magickers in the Northlands, I've also seen far too much of the following occurrence in the Northlands.

Magicker befriends Commoner who doesn't realize Magicker is an evil magicker. Over the course of an IC month or so, Magicker and Commoner become close. Magicker reveals deep, dark secret to Commoner. Commoner then decides, "Hey, Magicker is my friend. I like Magicker. So, Magickers must not be so bad."

Now, I realize that this is just people trying to play ICly and trying to let their PC be dynamic and change according to life experiences. However, I think this often ignores the virtual lifetime's worth of fear and hatred that the average Zalanthan (Northlander especially) has for magick.

Just my opinion (not necessarily those of the rest of staff),
Bakha

I liked all the posts. Alot of them are my same feelings. A problem I have, is that its ingrained to us how little of an influence and importance our single character in these metropolis type areas. So -one- human in 500 trillion (exaggerating) befriends an elf after a couple years. I dont think this is really earth-stopping. Now Im sure that these type of things are self-propagating... as new people see this type of action and think it common because of no real NPC consistant action to show this isnt the norm. And Im guessing thats where the major problem lies. "Monkey see, monkey do". And with and less people fully reading documentation it seems that these type of things become more common, and then harder to stop. I.e. some new player just skimmed the documentation, plays a northern character, runs into a magicker: Goes "Oh cool, can I be your lackey." The magicker shrugs, and they travel off. Now when approached he could defend himself by saying he didnt know that wasnt allowed.

Now on the main issue of conflict. Of course it may seem OOC for alot of things that go on, but MUDs as a whole exist partly as a form of escapism, and also as a game. I think its easier for people to co-exist with their elf and magicker surroundings then to fight it at every turn. Fighting your surroundings makes you lose your character, your time, and your effort in most cases. Like its alot easier to make friends with that evil sorcerror then to go up against him with passionate IC anger with your merchant maybe. One would probably get you killed, the other while OOC could -maybe- be explained like, I was just pretending to befriend him to stay alive, etc etc. But then we have the self-perpetuating scenario again that will breed similar situations.

Alot of people Ive spoke with about environment enhancing situations think they could be solved with a few things... on Slavery, make it more apparent to the people. As it is, my current character has never seen a slave. I think maybe one or two npcs, but thats it, in a society where I have to pretend that there is a heavy reliance and use of slaves; an entire noble house raised on the shoulders of this industry. I think with a little staff interaction there could maybe be a few slave echos added to rooms, the occassional 'run away' that's announced for people to keep a look out for, maybe an auction or two.
On the subject of magick in the north, its apparent there isnt enough fear, hate, and paranoia among the people. To give some semi-IC thoughts, your sitting in a bar and this man comes in, looking all suspicious, with slightly burned clothing. Someone may think: "That guy -COULD- be a magicker. A point of his finger and all could be blown up. He probably can shoot fire from his eyes". Or any of another number of things. I think that with a little help from the northern templarate their can maybe be the occassional hanging, or burning, or execution of NPC magickers that were 'caught' or something. Something for the people around to watch and jeer at, that will build up the sentiment of anti-magickism. But the funny thing, is that I could guarantee people getting disgusted, leaving in protest, etc. Which is I guess the point of the original post.

All in all I think these social norms that are being bended occassionally (moreso recently) could be fixed with a little nudging by the staff. People acting intolerant of drugs, prostitution, and slavery? Give it a little nudge. Make spice more readily available, add a few echos, make the environment pulsate with the fact that it is happening and normal. Add a few prostitutes to the gaj, weather npcs or echos, or just in the description. When people's environments ooze something its hard not to accept it. -Example- alot of people in the Gaj were nobility, templars, high-class merchants, until the day came where suddenly the environment jumped. Echoes were added of coackroach races on the bar, vomit pools on the floor, rats skirting along the walls, bar fights, whatever. Those -WORKED- marvelously, and are a prime example of how a situation can be altered to be more real with a little nudging.


Anyways, yeah... thats what I have to say. Keep up the discussion I like it.

[Angela Christine]

To sum up, in my opinion, Tulukis need to be sure to rabidly fear and hate magickers and anything magick, and even the magickers should be intensely fearful of the consequences of not only their actions, but for what they are.

Good post Fedaykin. While I've seen some good prejudice against magickers in the Northlands, I've also seen far too much of the following occurrence in the Northlands.

Magicker befriends Commoner who doesn't realize Magicker is an evil magicker. Over the course of an IC month or so, Magicker and Commoner become close. Magicker reveals deep, dark secret to Commoner. Commoner then decides, "Hey, Magicker is my friend. I like Magicker. So, Magickers must not be so bad."

Now, I realize that this is just people trying to play ICly and trying to let their PC be dynamic and change according to life experiences. However, I think this often ignores the virtual lifetime's worth of fear and hatred that the average Zalanthan (Northlander especially) has for magick.

I think an apt comparison for the current version of the real world would be pedaphiles.  Not child molesters mind you, but pedaphiles.  It's a very fine distinction, and one most of us don't want to bother with.  A child molester is someone who rapes children, rapists generally don't love their victims.  A pedaphile is someone who is sexually attracted to children, but does not want to hurt them, and may try to find non-rape ways to act on their feelings or may surpress them.  Many "normal" people occasionally feel a brief sexual attraction to someone under the age of consent but do not act on it.  I'm not trying to be pro-pedaphile here, but to show the sort of conflict you might run into if a friend told you he was sexually attracted to children; ie. a pedaphile.  Even if you can get your mind around the difference between child molesters and pedaphiles, it is still creepy.  

Likewise, if your friend told you he was a magicker, even if you could get your mind around the difference between a wilfully land-raping defiler and a comparativly innocuos elementalist (who probably didn't "choose" his affinity for magick ICly) it is still going to be creepy.  At a gut level you know it is wrong, perverse and unnatural, even if he tries not to act on his urges.  If he is actively practicing his magick . . . well, that might be something like finding out your friend is having a long-term, commited and consensual sexual relationship with an 11 year old.  You might allow yourself to be convinced that it is ok, you might try to help reform him, or you might consider it inexcusable and kill the bastard.

Note:  I'm not saying that magick is actually similar to pedaphilia, but some Zalanthian cultures revile magick as much as some modern Earth cultures revile pedaphilia.  The shock and revulsion of finding out someone you respect is into such an unnatural practice may be similar.

AC

[Angela Christine]

To sum up, in my opinion, Tulukis need to be sure to rabidly fear and hate magickers and anything magick, and even the magickers should be intensely fearful of the consequences of not only their actions, but for what they are.

Good post Fedaykin. While I've seen some good prejudice against magickers in the Northlands, I've also seen far too much of the following occurrence in the Northlands.

Magicker befriends Commoner who doesn't realize Magicker is an evil magicker. Over the course of an IC month or so, Magicker and Commoner become close. Magicker reveals deep, dark secret to Commoner. Commoner then decides, "Hey, Magicker is my friend. I like Magicker. So, Magickers must not be so bad."

Now, I realize that this is just people trying to play ICly and trying to let their PC be dynamic and change according to life experiences. However, I think this often ignores the virtual lifetime's worth of fear and hatred that the average Zalanthan (Northlander especially) has for magick.

I think an apt comparison for the current version of the real world would be pedaphiles.  Not child molesters mind you, but pedaphiles.  It's a very fine distinction, and one most of us don't want to bother with.  A child molester is someone who rapes children, rapists generally don't love their victims.  A pedaphile is someone who is sexually attracted to children, but does not want to hurt them, and may try to find non-rape ways to act on their feelings or may surpress them.  Many "normal" people occasionally feel a brief sexual attraction to someone under the age of consent but do not act on it.  I'm not trying to be pro-pedaphile here, but to show the sort of conflict you might run into if a friend told you he was sexually attracted to children; ie. a pedaphile.  Even if you can get your mind around the difference between child molesters and pedaphiles, it is still creepy.  

Likewise, if your friend told you he was a magicker, even if you could get your mind around the difference between a wilfully land-raping defiler and a comparativly innocuos elementalist (who probably didn't "choose" his affinity for magick ICly) it is still going to be creepy.  At a gut level you know it is wrong, perverse and unnatural, even if he tries not to act on his urges.  If he is actively practicing his magick . . . well, that might be something like finding out your friend is having a long-term, commited and consensual sexual relationship with an 11 year old.  You might allow yourself to be convinced that it is ok, you might try to help reform him, or you might consider it inexcusable and kill the bastard.

Note:  I'm not saying that magick is actually similar to pedaphilia, but some Zalanthian cultures revile magick as much as some modern Earth cultures revile pedaphilia.  The shock and revulsion of finding out someone you respect is into such an unnatural practice may be similar.

AC

[Fedaykin]

I have to disagree with the "creepy" thing, at least from a Northlands perspective, as I think it is very important to distinguish their views on magickers from those of other cultures.  However, I do think that same creepy feeling might be accurate for other cultures.

To a Northerner a magicker should be viewed more like an evil person with a deadly bomb in their possession.  Someone with the malicious will, intent and ability to use that bomb.  That bomb could go off at any moment, killing you and hundreds of others.  The fact that anyone has such deadly and devestating power, no matter how well you might've known them or trusted them, should cause you to fear them anyways.  If that person doesn't seem like they're evil, or like they will not use their loathsome powers, a Northerner/Tuluki should have faith that eventually they will be corrupted by their power, turn evil and use it anyways.  

Outright fear of that power and hatred towards anyone who has it or would use it is a necessary part of a Tuluki mindset, in my opinion at least.

[X-D]

Outright fear of that power and hatred towards anyone who has it or would use it is a necessary part of a Tuluki mindset, in my opinion at least.

I would have to agree with Fedaykin here and is the way I have played all my northern folk.

Some of my Nakki chars(the ones who have full trust in the might of Tek)  have seen gemmed magickers as little more then slaves, useful, but to be killed without a thought if they get out of line, Ungemmed of course are to be feared untill you manage to kill them.

I also find, at least the chars I see in the north, all of them truly fear/hate/loath magickers of any sort.

[creeper386]

First, I'll say I agree with most the things. I'm definately pro-conflict when it comes to Arm.

As it is, my current character has never seen a slave. I think maybe one or two npcs, but thats it, in a society where I have to pretend that there is a heavy reliance and use of slaves; an entire noble house raised on the shoulders of this industry.

Okay, I've played in 'nak and the North. Not as MANY slaves around in the north it seems, but I know nearly every NPC I see in 'nak is a slave or a soldier for the most part. I've only been to Luir's and the Storms once or twice and didn't pay much attention so it might be different there. But I know for sure there is quite abit of slaves in Allanak, a road for slavery with pens and I beleive even one auction area. At least in Allanak the slave side is quite apparent.

What I don't see as being apparent though really, is racism and magickism and all that. It's there but most the time it's not that big of a deal. I do know that the Gaj is full of all sorts of people, but I'm guessing a good number of it is going to be humans and probably dwarves, and yet elves or 'rinthers or a magicker walks in and causes trouble like they wouldn't be absolutely gang raped and tossed in the stew for the good quiet 'rinthers and elves and what not. Examples of this type of thing. Dress up in a business suit or as a preppy punk, go to a biker bar and start trouble. If you aren't that big, probably going to get your ass kicked by one guy, if you look like trouble, a bunch of people are probably going to kick you ass. Kind of the common cause theory. They may hate each other but they hate the others more. I see this as something common in Zalanthas. May just be me.

Guess things like this, if your going to start trouble, it's a good idea to make sure you aren't the minority. It's less likely that some elf or weak human bard would be starting trouble in the Gaj as a dwarven warrior doing the same in the Barrel and such. And if you are the minority, you should probably at least take that into alittle account when causing trouble.

Hmm... Thats all

Creeper

I have to disagree with the "creepy" thing, at least from a Northlands perspective, as I think it is very important to distinguish their views on magickers from those of other cultures. However, I do think that same creepy feeling might be accurate for other cultures.  

Then, to use AC's example, in the North, a magicker would be a molester (Jailed, killed, attacked etc.) whereas in the South a magicker would be a pedophile.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I have to disagree with the "creepy" thing, at least from a Northlands perspective, as I think it is very important to distinguish their views on magickers from those of other cultures.  

I was referring to Allanak, assuming your response is to my post.

[EvilRoeSlade]

I think an apt comparison for the current version of the real world would be pedaphiles.

Leave it to you to find a startlingly accurate analogy of that nature.  What are you, a sexpert?  *shudder*

Then, to use AC's example, in the North, a magicker would be a molester (Jailed, killed, attacked etc.) whereas in the South a magicker would be a pedophile.

No no, I think your missing the point entirely.  A defiler or a void cleric is a child molester, and a preserver or elementalist is a pedophile.  Trouble is, nobody knows the difference and think that all magickers are molesters.  The difference between the north and the south is that northerners kill their pedophiles AND molesters, and the south only kills their molesters (preservers too, because they think that they are molesters) while they label their pedophiles to keep them in check.

Does that make sense?  No really, I don't know.  Everything sort of got fuzzy at the end.

[Fedaykin]

I have to disagree with the "creepy" thing, at least from a Northlands perspective, as I think it is very important to distinguish their views on magickers from those of other cultures. However, I do think that same creepy feeling might be accurate for other cultures.  

Then, to use AC's example, in the North, a magicker would be a molester (Jailed, killed, attacked etc.) whereas in the South a magicker would be a pedophile.

In RL, molesters are not killed.  They're jailed and are eventually released to become outcasts, but certainly allowed to live.  Second, most people do not live in terror or fear of molesters, as people would magickers in Tuluk.  Also, molesters don't kill seventy thousand people or destroy entire cities, as magickers/magick powers have.  Therefore, I don't feel the molester is an accurate depiction or relation to the treatment of magickers, or the way they are viewed in the North.

When it comes to Tuluk there needs to be little to no grey area in the way magickers are viewed.  Its very black and white, and the feelings and views are intense.  I feel the strongest examples possible need to be used to convery the way Tulukis should feel about magickers, such as members of Al Qaeda roaming our cities with large, deadly bombs.

I have to disagree with the "creepy" thing, at least from a Northlands perspective, as I think it is very important to distinguish their views on magickers from those of other cultures.  

I was referring to Allanak, assuming your response is to my post.

I was referring to the creepy depiction in AC's post, but as I said, "However, I do think that same creepy feeling might be accurate for other cultures", so I completely agree it could be an accurate depiction of the way they may be viewed within Allanak.

[Vox]

Firstly, listen to the words of Fedaykin, for they are wise and inspired.  

Secondly, I find this pedophile/molester analogy erroneous and misleading.
Even in Allanak I find it difficult to associate the sickening, 'creepy' feeling attached to child-molesters with the fear and loathing attached to Magickers.

Pedophilia is not a harmless, misguided love for pre-pubescence; a pedophile is an adult who is sexually attracted to children. Not sixteen year olds who are under the age of consent but physically maturing. CHILDREN.  Molestation is not just rape. An adult can molest a child emotionally and physically without ever engaging in sex. So, if an adult is sexually attracted to children, the manifestation of this attraction exists in self-gratification with child pornography and eventually actual contact with a minor for the purpose of the same self-gratification(i.e. a pedophile acting on their impulses).  So when it comes down to it, there is little difference between a pedofile and a child-molester. A pedofile is a molester wanna-be. So, why don't we see roman-style crucifixes around towns with the sun-bleached skeletons of child-molesters and pedophiles hanging from them? Because this disorder/disease is treatable with therapy and medication, understanding and love. Most of the time the cause behind such inappropriate feelings and actions stem from the person being molested themselves when they were children. It's an ugly cycle. People afflicted thusly are troubled, yes. Should they be taken out and shot? Sometimes. But more importantly they can and must be helped so that the cycle can be broken.

I don't mean to ramble on about these OOC topics, but I think it's important that we understand what's behind the analogy being drawn so that we can also see why it does not pertain to the subject of Magickers and we deal with them ICly. Consider this scenario:

Joe Pedophile confronts his friend Bill Normaldude and admits to having extremely inappropriate thoughts and feelings about children. Bill Normaldude being the cool guy and good friend that he is, feels creeped out by the subject, but also honored that Joe came to him with this cry for help. As Joe's friend Bill's goal is then to try to aid Joe to rid himself of such feelings and suggests that Joe seek therapy with a liscensed professional. Joe does, and discovers a repressed memory of his uncle molesting him when he was little, shedding light on why perhaps he feels the way he does.  Joe continues therapy and learns that such impulses are inappropriate and can be controlled and eventually conquered as he deals with his emotional 'issues'.

The situation has sort of a happy ending here because Joe is seeking help, not just admitting something he never plans to change. Even if he had actually molested someone the scenario would change only slightly, with Bill feeling more creeped out by the idea, but still showing the love and understanding of a friend who wants to help. So, either way, the friend is still the friend...

Now consider a Zalanthian example:

Joe Magickguy confronts Bill NormalNortherndude and admits to being able to draw on arcane powers and bend the forces of nature to his will. Bill, being the cool guy that he is, suddenly fears for his life and all those around him, the sounds of 70,000 people screaming in unison resonating through his thoughts.  Bill knows NOTHING about the essence of these forces and why they exist, only that they are the cause for not only the wasted state of the Known World but more importantly the horrific destruction of Tuluk which then lead to a few years of SOUTHERN OCCUPATION. Not certain if killing Joe outright would somehow cause Bill's own brain to melt or a demon to arrive suddenly and avenge the death of the magick-user, he nods and smiles. Moments later Bill runs to the Templarate and informs them of the encounter, mourning the loss of his friend and wondering if he has somehow been cursed for evening talking to such a creature.

Magickers are not mentally disturbed or challenged people who need pity and therapy. They are individuals who mysteriously possess abilities which normal people can only imagine and fear.  In the North it is clear that what was once quiet fear and loathing has now been turned into active rage and hostility.  Bakha said it best when he mentioned the 'lifetime of fear and hatred for magick'.  This hatred and fear is now as engrained in Tuluki society as their love for art and music.  This is the kind of hatred which unites a people agaisnt a common foe. The background of every Northern character is touched by the essence of this hatred as it is a part of the culture.

OOCly we are starting our characters at ages between 20 and 40 primarily. For this reason it is often easy to forget that your character has had 20-40 years of experience living in the culture you placed them in before you even got to the keyboard. Forgetting about being raised in a culture that has experienced what the North has will lead to scenes like Bakha described, in which Magick Users are tolerated, accepted and even befriended by normal folk. Fedaykin's use of the term 'grey area' is most apt here, because there is none. It's black and white. Growing up in the North will make you HATE Magickers so much that you become blind to the danger which might exist in killing them.  The thought is: the only good magicker is a dead one.  The Magick then used by the Templarate would probably not even be thought of as 'magick' but as the beneficence and sheer Will of Muk-Utep, who has freed the North and brought life and prosperity back to it. Not understanding what Magick is ICly would allow thoughts like that to occur. And it is SO important that they do.

The focus on the treatment of Magick Users is being concentrated primarily in the North because that is where the CONFLICT is the fiercest. But Let us not forget Allanak.

The Elementalist Quarter is not a gracious gift of the Highlord so that Magickers can practice freely and normal people can visit their Temples to seek wisdom and healing. It was created to ISOLATE them from the rest of the populace. I don't think many Allanakis have even visited the Quarter nor possess any desire to do so.  What goes on there should not be common knowledge, and if more people pass the entrances to the Quarter with the thought that, "If Elementalism destroyed Tuluk, couldn't that happen here too?" and "Are they sacrificing people in those Temples?" I think things would be more interesting.

Magickers are gemmed to help keep track of them as well as control them.  The gem cannot be removed, and if the wearer tries to take it off they will suffer great pain and possibly death.  It is essentially a brand, acting both as a marker and also a warning.  They are 'tolerated' by the Templarate and therefore must be 'tolerated' by the masses. That of course does not mean that they are liked and welcome anywhere they wish to go. Nor does it mean that Magickers are no longer feared.  I would imagine that the very sight of the gem would unsettle most commoners.  How many NPCS outside of the Quarter have you noticed baring a gem, btw? As far as I know, there aren't any. The 'grey area' created by the 'tolerance' however makes RPing a Southern's feelings about Magick sometimes tricky.  Southerners have a greater responsibility to decide how their individual character feels about Magick and the Magickers that live within their city.  I don't think enough of us take the time to lay out the hardline beliefs of our characters before we start playing in a particular location. Leaving us with even more 'greyness' as we are left with coming up with such beliefs as we play. So, meeting a nice magicker who RPs and emotes well might draw us into letting our characters want to hang out with and befriend that character. Once again totally negating the 20+ years within our character's background in which there should exist a general fear and loathing for Magick.  Those playing 'young' character have more of an advantage in this regard because they're still 'kids' and haven't been able to develop their belief system as fully.

Jeez, I just prattle on and on. Suffice it to say however that at the heart of this 'Magick' discussion lies the essence of 'Conflict.' The more interesting choices in our character's lives are the ones that create more conflict. Which in turn cause us to make decisions which might put our characters in mortal jeopardy BUT are more truthful to the nature of the world we're RPing in.  We must divorce ourselves from the OOC inclination of PC preservation, people!  The best RPers are the ones who will put themselves in harm's way for the sheer reason that it is the IC thing to do. As many other threads regarding cool death scenes will testify, dying is often the most fun. :twisted:

That's my two thousand cents... What say the rest of you?

[Kankman]

I noticed a few people mention how magickers should be hunted and torched in the streets. Hanged or beaten to death for all to see. One of the things that seperates Tuluk from Allanak is the idea that it is better to take care of things with subtle action. While I can certainly see an uprising from commoners over suspecting someone is a magicker, the Templarate or or any soldier that came across the mob and suspected magicker would likely capture the vile creature and bring it to the cells for whatever lied in wait there. The general populace would likely never see the suspect again and go on happily believing that the Templars and Nobiliity that they worked so hard to protect during the Allanaki occupation were doing their utmost to keep them safe now, as a gesture of thanks.

That all said, I do think there should be more paranoia in the minds of the Tuluki commoners about magick. It should be blamed for all sorts of things, up to and including anything and everything that goes wrong. Meat went rotten in your pack before you could cook it? Perhaps a friend had gotten a fruit which ripened more swiftly then you thought it might. What that, you uncle has taken ill? That's it, someone has got to be meddling in magicks and cursing you. Time to ask your friends to stay on the look out, decide upon a likely candidate and kill them or rat them out to a Templar.

Most importantly I think everyone just needs to keep in mind, despite how OOCly you might want to make friends and all of that jazz, that the place for that is on these discussion boards. While playing Armageddon you shouldn't think twice about backstabbing your new hunting partner because he's got some nice boots and was kind of an ass anyways. Looks like someone else is up for promotion before you? Slander them. Plant rumors, even if they are completely false. "Damn" you say, "Then I might have to deal with IC punishments and consequences".  "That's right" I reply, "and everyone will have had a much more entertaining time because of it."

[Delirium]

Vox, Fedaykin, and Kankman said about all I could say.

Especially on the note of magickers - that was something I learned the hard way. I'll admit I was one of those people that didn't fully understand the true extent to which magickers are hated and feared at first - it can be a difficult thing, especially if Joe or Jane magicker is an excellent RPer.. but you just have to remember that your average twenty-something character has ad over two decades of cultural propaganda teaching them that magickers are vile, filthy beasts of pure evil. What, they were your friend until now? They must have only been manipulating you, hiding their true nature.. just waiting to strike, or even if they hate what they are, that doesn't mean that one day, they won't lose control. Better to be merciful and kill them now, rather than allow the possibility of something disasterous happening later on.

If JoeCommoner finds out JohnMagicker's true nature, instead of mulling it over for a while and deciding that maybe not ALL magickers are bad,  instead he would at least have deep feelings of betrayal if not utter revulsion and fear/loathing.

Conversely, being found out to be a magicker should be someone's worst fear. Especially in Tuluk. Being thought to be a magicker, or being known as a magicker, is DEATH.

I will admit upfront I'm guilty of this 'well, maybe they're not ALL bad' thing. It'll never happen again, but I honestly did not realize, at the time, that it was a big no-no. This is why I'm glad to see a thread like this: help get the word out. The more people come to understand topics like these, the easier it'll be to RP things like we should.

Also, consider this: simply associating with someone that you know to be a magicker - or even someone that turns out to be a magicker, whether you knew it or not - if they get caught, and you with them, it's very likely that you will die as well. At the very least, you'll be exiled. That's right, exile for even associating with one of those vile, filthy beasts. And good riddance; if you were evil enough to be hanging out with one of those walking bombs, who knows what else you might be involved in?

A lot of this I've learned the hard way, but I'm glad I did - it might be difficult to wrap your mind around at first, but keeping such IC disctinctions in your mind while RPing in the world of Zalanthas can really help bring it to life.. and cause some interesting interactions, as well.

Laeris said it pretty well: "Elves do not ride mounts, half-giants do not perform Calculus, and Northlanders are -never- accepting of magickers unless that magicker has given them -great- cause (such as saving their lives on repeated occasions and perhaps not even then)."

(Looks like I had something to say, after all. Heh. Plink, plink. Forgive any incoherrance please, I'm still sobering up.  )

[Elaira]

Fedaykin wrote:

An entire city-state destroyed. Seventy thousand people killed in one day; roughly a quarter of the city and North’s entire population. The dynasty of Tuluk shattered. Now only after an entire King’s Age is Tuluk finally getting back on its feet. Why? Magick.

When playing a northerner I play out the magick hatred to the letter.  I do this because that's the way the staff wants it played out.  However, I sometimes don't think the logic is as simple as "If A happens then B follows."  Meaning, just because Tuluk was destroyed by magick the natural reaction is to hate magick.  Is it?  Why hate magick?  Why not hate the people wielding the magick?  If an army comes in and wipes out my village using firearms, I won't go and hate firearms, spreading my gospel to the rest of the people that firearms are to be shunned (thereby crippling my defenses -- much like Tuluk has done by banning magick).  No, on the contrary I might use guns myself to lash back at the enemy.  I understand people are ignorant, they can't comprehend magick, and so on, but I still don't think that the only possible reaction to a city being leveled by magick is to hate magick.  Why not brandish a few mages of your own and retaliate?  The mere fact that using weapons against the onslaught which destroyed Tuluk proved futile should be a testament -- even to the most ignorant of people -- that the only defense against magick is magick.

It's just a thought.  I'm not saying anyone is doing anything wrong or that I think the whole current setup is trash.  It's just an argument I thought fitted in with this topic and wanted to see some input.

[sancho]

- - I just have to comment on that thing about not trying to lose your character, time, effort, etc. If you do not act on something your character would act on, because you know it may be fatal, you are no longer role playing. Doing so is to completely abandon the game. Not the realism of the game, not the escapism of the game; acting OOC is abandoning everything related to the game.

- - I shall offer an example, in the death of a character of mine from a few months ago who was very poorly known. I actually have a better example, in the only other character of mine to sacrifice himself who had well over a year and a half of playing time. However, his death has way too much IC-sensitive information. I don't feel my more recent character's death is too IC-sensitive, since he was so isolated it couldn't possibly give away anything to anyone. Only one other PC was present, and the part he was present for is so typical pretty much anyone that killed anyone else in the Rinth might think I am talking about them.

- - I had a character that was an exceptional elven pickpocket. However, due to certain reasons he could never truly find any group of people to accept him. So, he simply decided that the Rinth was his clan. Not the Guild or any real group operating in the Rinth, but the Rinth itself. Likewise, anything that was a threat to the Rinth as a whole (i.e. Allanak and pretty much everything that was not the Rinth) became The Enemy. As such, he regularly stole from Allanaki and gave to the Rinth. This is not like Robin Hood, and it wasn't charity. He was taking things from his clan's enemy and then giving it to his clan. This made "Us" stronger and "Them" weaker.

- - One day, he noticed a large number of dead NPCs. This indicated that there was a serial killer in the Rinth. So, he went out and about, PEEKing at the belongings of everyone (PCs and NPCs) in the Rinth. Finally, I found one NPC carrying a bloody item. It was a massive human who had no neck, as the gargantuan mass of muscle leading up from his shoulders was attempting to consume his head.

- - The NPC did not attack me, so I then knew this was probably not an aggressive NPC and very likely had nothing to do with the killings. None the less, my weak-ass, untrained-in-combat, elven pickpocket attacked him and nearly died... twice. I would have kept attacking him until one of us was dead (with a 100% chance of that being my character) because my character had concluded that this NPC was his serial killer. Did I know that my actions would get my character killed? Of course. Would my character, who also pretty much knew he had little chance of success, abandon his acts? Of course not. A murderer was harming his clan, and all of his elven loyalty genes were screaming "Kill this mofo! Defend your people!" as loud as they could.

- - Fate intervened, however. Just after I had finished preparing for Operation: Moronic Death 3, the PC who was killing all of the NPCs left and right showed up. Again, as my character viewed the Rinth as a whole as his clan, he tended to be far too trusting of other Rinthers. Meaning that my character stood up and looked at him curiously instead of drawing weapons. A fight broke out, in which I got to watch my character slowly get edged out by his enemy.

- - My character fled, but then realised that this serial killer would continue to kill Rinthers unless he was stopped. My character also knew that the other guy was only in slightly better shape than him. So, that being the case, I switched his weapons about and marched my character to his death. It would not be in character for my character to find a place to recover, when (for the moment) someone murdering his brethren was both wounded and disoriented. Even though the odds were he'd die fighting, and even though my character was aware of this, the course of action I chose was what he'd do.

- - The idea that anyone might excuse their IC attitude by saying "Well I don't want my character to die." is repugnant. It absolutely misses the point of role play, in every aspect of role playing, in any arena (even games). I often stress that very little work should be put into character creation, and that virtually all development should be done by playing the character. That is the reason.

- - When you do all of your development IC, when your character dies you do not lose anything you havn't put into your character. You can have a wonderfully developed character, yet not be afraid to act IC. At the same time, you do not have to feel swayed by the OOC fear of losing a promising new character, simply because you put so little effort in the background. Typically, a character made in this fashion is easier to RP, because you're learning about them as they develop.

- - A lot of people will probably be skimming this and see the words "... because you put so little effort in the background" and flip out. I'm not knocking making a detailed background, I am saying it is a hinderence to RP and not a boon. If you use the background to set the basic mood of your character and then develop your character by IC experiences, that character will become fully-integrated into the environment within the first few hours of playing time. There's no finding a niche to survive in, no being afraid to spit on a magicker, and no fear of conflict, just because OOC you're fearing your hours of careful story-crafting will be wiped out in an instant.

- - Perhaps this might not apply with a sponsored character receiving a skill-boost, or a very old character. However, most players do not have these characters, and therefor bringing them up in opposition to this is fairly futile. Obviously, if you have a very old character, or one whose skills match what their background states, this might not apply.

- - So, in closing:
1) If you choose to save your character or play your character in a non-threatening way (based upon OOC anything), you aren't RPing.

2) Putting a lot of work into a character while not playing the game is akin to sledding uphill. Arguably there are good reasons for this, but it's better to go with the natural order than against it.

[sancho]

- - Elaira, I have to disagree with you, though the points you make are good. People in the real world blame guns for damn near everything done with guns. They do this because they are ignorant and want to blame inanimate objects for the evil and stupidity of a small group of people. They not only allow laws to pass that limit the rights of law-abiding people, but they furvorously push for them. Exceptions to these laws are made, of course, for the wealthy and members of the government. This includes wealthy people and members of the government who are protected by guns either directly (personal ownership) or indirectly (their guards).

- - Viewing this disgusting hypocracy and stupidity in the real world, it is hard to say that it couldn't exist in Tuluk. This is espicially since the average Zalanthan is only slightly more ignorant than the typical Gun Control advocate. Even more important to note than the comparable stupidity between Gun Control and magicker-hating, you should note that possessing magick is not like possessing a gun. A person can be disarmed, but a magicker cannot be dis-... umm... well shit... - dismagicked.

- - A magicker will always be a magicker. Now, as I said before, people will completely disregard the hypocracy of their situation. They would completely accept the templarate and Muk Utep possessing magick because they would consider it a totally different thing from a common citizen being an elementalist. In one sense, it is, because an elementalist gets magick from something which is not Muk Utep. This doesn't mean your average Tuluki won't shit themselves at the sight of any magick, just that they won't associate a templar casting with their city being reduced to FUBAR and kipple.

- - There are two things to remember. The first is that elementalists leveled Tuluk (I personally think it was Rukkians and not those sissy Krathi, but only because I am a bigot). The second is sorcerers ruined everything else. Therefor, if your powers even slightly resemble either of these things, you are a demon bent on slaughtering thousands. If you are Muk Utep or his templarate, you are the saviors and preservers of Tuluki safety, and it is totally acceptable that you wield something others are not allowed to have.

- - It is sad that people are that simple. It really is. However, you cannot ignore the real world parallel.  :cry:

[Plazgoth]

Sancho,

I agree with many of the points you have made in this thread but I must question the philosophy behind the death of your elven rinther.  I agree that his actions in that situation were probably justified, but I don't think you can make the blanket statement that -everyone- else would act in the same manner in the same situation. There is a lot to be said of the argument for self preservation. I believe when it is time to die people will do almost anything to delay their death hour. Now I am not saying all people because as we know even in RL there are some who can override the instinct to live (i.e. suicide bombers, etc) but overall in RL people would do almost anything to stay alive vs. meet their maker.

Now I know that it is dangerous to draw such parallels between RL and Zalanthas, but I think the fact that Zalanthan men and women are supposed to be stronger and undisputedly better survivalists, their self preservation instinct would be even stronger then ours here on Earth. Throw in the mix no organized religion on Zalanthas, and no common belief in an afterlife and I think that most Zalanthan inhabitants would do things that in your argument would be considered bad RP. Now don't get me wrong, I do think that characters should always be played consistently with respect to their personality. So if my character hates elves one day he should not change the next day because one of my OOC friends is playing an elf, and I like to RP with him. Or if my character is a though warrior type working for a secretive clan, and is captured by the enemy and given the choice die or tell us the secrets you know about your clan, and I the player choose to give up the secrets to save the life of my PC, when the character's personality and life contradict that choice.

There are many cases when one would go down trying like your elf, but I think those would be exceptions on Zalanthas. I have had a characters that would rather die then accept the alternative (whatever it was at the time..), which was totally IC for them to do, and indeed they did and died, but if they could have changed the situation somehow to where they ended up alive they would have.  

What if your 'rinth elf was a human, and he did not feel the same genes you spoke of. I think that the whole episode could have been much different. The question is how do you know that the elven instinct of self preservation is not stronger then his loyalty to the 'rinth? You the player made that choice, I don't think it is explicitly stated anywhere that that is exactly how elves are and should always act. Another player might have done it differently, run off with revenge in his heart for the rest of his life or until he found a way to brutally murder the serial killer. Then with this new goal in mind formulate a plot to involve many more players in his plan for revenge, hire one of the many organizations to take care of the murderer, or find poison and do it himself when he is sure of his success. Again I think all that is left to the player to decide. It is ultimately a choice of what is fun for you to do.

I also know that when you get into the fictional races, such as elves, a lot of our RL philosophies might break down. Like a tribal elf choosing death rather then to see the death of his tribe mates. Or dwarves choosing death because they believe that it will achieve their focus (I am no expert on dwarves, so I am not 100% sure this applies). But I an being too long.

If you read this far I give you kudos. In summary, I do think that characters must be played in a consistent manner, all the time. But when it comes down to it players have many different choice at every crossroad, and they should be able to choose the route which is fun for them.

[Fedaykin]

Why hate magick?  Why not hate the people wielding the magick?  If an army comes in and wipes out my village using firearms, I won't go and hate firearms, spreading my gospel to the rest of the people that firearms are to be shunned (thereby crippling my defenses -- much like Tuluk has done by banning magick).  No, on the contrary I might use guns myself to lash back at the enemy.  I understand people are ignorant, they can't comprehend magick, and so on, but I still don't think that the only possible reaction to a city being leveled by magick is to hate magick.  Why not brandish a few mages of your own and retaliate?

The problem with this reasoning is, the fine points of magick are going to be completely unknown to Northern commoners.  In the eyes of the average Tuluki, an immensely destructive force that is unknown to them and which they have no hope of controling has destroyed their city and killed such extreme numbers of people.  In almost all instances people fear the unknown. Particularly if that unknown is as deadly and destructive as it is here.

Magickers and magick are not like firearms because, with guns, you control them.  In this case with magickers, its a very different story. "People" other yourself control a destructive power largely unknown to you.  How can you trust any of them to do the so called "right thing" with their powers?  You've always been taught that their powers are evil. No matter how well you might have known them, how could you possibly ever trust them not to be corrupted by their evil power?  No Northerner is going to start recruiting magickers for use of their deadly and destructive powers which he cannot understand, whom he cannot trust and cannot control.

[X-D]

I will add to what Fedaykin wrote.

Not only is it taught that magic is evil but remember, zalanthas was not always a desert planet, this is also taught, likley there would still be legends of huge bodies of water that one could not see the end of, free flowing streams of wet goodness free for anybody to take with looking around for a white robe to pay, the myth of rain, water falling from the sky.

"Yes my child that is the way it once was, a paradise, untill the magickers got to greedy, to power hungry and warred with each other, bringing the dragon forth and breaking the world, angering suk-krath so that he swelled in anger and Vivadu retreated as she was saddened and many more things lost to time cataclysm death and war, Aye, the magickers are to blame for your sister dying of thirst"

No, A northerner would never use magic to combat magic, IMO.

[creeper386]

What if your 'rinth elf was a human, and he did not feel the same genes you spoke of. I think that the whole episode could have been much different. The question is how do you know that the elven instinct of self preservation is not stronger then his loyalty to the 'rinth?

Alright. He's not saying that ALL people would choose life over death. He's saying to be IC. DO WHAT YOUR CHARACTER WOULD DO. OOCily he knew his character was going to die. He still did what his character would do. OOCily you know that if you assault that dwarf thats talking crap you'll get thrown in jail, possibly killed or many other worse things, but thats what your character would do. If you character would not do that. Then you wouldn't do that.

NOW, someone mentioned being brief about your background and such. Yes you can do this, but you still have to have a solid idea of WHO your character is. Otherwise your not really RPing, your just molding your character how you see fit as it happens. ICally, as well as in RL, are opinions are molded before hand... By the time about 13-20 most people WELL have reactions to most situations, therefor you would have to know your characters general reactions to things before playing, other wise your not really playing a character. You still making him. And it gives you the OOC advantage to pick and choose what YOU want to get what you want. And it's lame if you do that. You can still spend a short amount of time, but NEED to know who you character is. Basing all his things IG isn't cool. I can spend a long time on my character in creation. And I act more ICally. WHY? Because I have some good ideas of HOW my character would react. He's already been shaped and fired, I'm not still molding him. Even with child characters this is true. You can't still be completely molding them while in game unless you have a much younger special app. And no matter what they age they'd still have past experiences, therefor they'd have alot of set responses and reactions.

Bleh.