any city elves?

[My 2 sids]

Anyone interested in playing city elves?

[Troicha]

I've never been able to do it successfully. I like to wander the wastes and get into trouble, which city-elves just can't do.

[Tomeglow]

All the city-elves I've encountered have been badly played.

[Ghost]

I've never been able to do it successfully. I like to wander the wastes and get into trouble, which city-elves just can't do.

I finally could beat down "the wander the wastes" urge, but still, playing a city elf is not easy for me.  The level of interaction and the mindset are hard to adapt.

[Adiadochokinesis]

I have only ever played city elves when I have had a tribe to play in.

Otherwise the temptation to turn into a human with pointy ears often overwhelms players.

[My 2 sids]

I have only ever played city elves when I have had a tribe to play in.

Otherwise the temptation to turn into a human with pointy ears often overwhelms players.

Exactly why I'd like to set up a tribe/family w/ anyone interested

[Mudder]

I'd be interested. Being an elf is the best race for me, I never have a hard time playing one.

[Reiloth]

I'd suggest playing a city elf in the 'rinth, with a plethora of coded families you can find out with a simple email to the MUD account.

Its fun.

[Adiadochokinesis]

I'd be interested. Being an elf is the best race for me, I never have a hard time playing one.

You could be horribly misplaying them!

You never know.

[Manhattan]

I'd suggest playing a city elf in the 'rinth, with a plethora of coded families you can find out with a simple email to the MUD account.

Its fun.

Oh, fosheezy?
Damn, this game turns up new surprises for me every week.

[RogueGunslinger]

There are coded 'rinth families? That's amazing...

[Adiadochokinesis]

There are coded 'rinth families? That's amazing...

He's lying. Everyone can continue on slaughtering the orhpaned fodder NPCs.

[Reiloth]

Not 'coded' per se. Like "YOU ARE A MEMBER OF THIS FAMILY YO", but perfectly useable for backgrounds, and somthing that fleshes out the RP of the 'rinth. It really does help.

I don't know why it isn't in the documentation, or 'what you know' when you start up. It doesn't seem realistic that if you were an elf in the 'rinth, you wouldn't know about these families.

[Rindan]

'Rinth tribes are nice and all, but people do need to realize that not every single elf MUST be an 'rinth elf.  I personally would be overjoyed to see some south side city elves that are merchants, crafters, or traders.  Not all elves are desperate criminals.  Not all elves are even deeply impoverished xenophobes who are as likely to cut you as trade with you.  A family company tribe in the south side is an entirely viable elven tribe.  They don't stand much chance at displacing a great merchant house, but they could easily service low end markets or quietly supply high end markets.  While they might never fully trust others, they certainly are not so stupid as to refuse to hire, buy, and sell from others when it suits their needs.

If you want my opinion of what a city elf tribe should be, see Deep Space 9, watch Quarks run his bar with his family, and make him a little nicer to his kin.  He provides a valuable and needed service, deals in just about anything, and if he is breaking the law, he is certainly being quiet about it and paying off the right people to ignore it.  No one really likes him, but everyone tolerates him for providing something only he can provide.

[Reiloth]

I would agree with you, Rindan, but I do believe that a majority of elves, especially if from the 'rinth, are highly xenophobic, and thieves, and ripoffs. I mean...The well played ones at least. I agree that a family of south side city elves would be neat to see, as well.

[Adiadochokinesis]

Elves are xenophobic to an extent, but this does not preclude them from doing business, hiring, and using people who are not in their tribe.

It would not be out of character at all to see an elven business trying to hire humans to do menial labor.

Nor would it be strange to see an elf-owned brothel whoring out humans or dwarves.

It WOULD be a bit rare to have elf-owned brothels outside of elf neighborhoods, but I doubt it is unheard of.

It is a mistake to think that city elves would not do business, associate with, or hire humans/dwarves/elves not of their tribe. They simply would not trust them.

[Troicha]

It is a mistake to think that city elves would not do business, associate with, or hire humans/dwarves/elves not of their tribe. They simply would not trust them.

After all, who can you cheat if you only associate with your brothers?

[Adiadochokinesis]

Your little brothers.

[Throttle]

I've always found city elves to be one of the "worst" races in the game, for many reasons.

- Code-wise they're about as poor as it gets. Their lack of strength and endurance makes them terrible fighters compared to any other playable race, because the agility bonus does in no way make up for the other shortcomings. Add to that the fact that they can't ride, which rules out much out-of-city activity, and that very few clans will accept them, so their lawful options are more or less narrowed down to the Byn. They have no useful racial traits or abilities, and they get screwed over badly by the terrible stat system. I've played both a human and an elf warrior for roughly equal amounts of time, with a very similar style of play which would leave them not far from eachother in terms of skill. Their stats were even fairly similar in total numbers, but the elf's lack of strength made him about half as good as the human. There comes a point where agility matters very little, and strength will always be -the- combat stat.

- There's no actual elven community in any city anywhere except for the 'rinth. If you want to play anywhere else, expect to be playing with everything but other elves, and while this does create some of the supposedly interesting conflict, that grows dull when it's everything you see week after week. The alternative is playing in the 'rinth where every elven PC sticks together as friends, usually in the same tribe, with absolutely no conflict on their own side. This means that if you want to do anything other than sit around and hold hands, you'll need to leave the 'rinth anyway.

- Playing an independent merchant sucks, and that's more or less the only other option if you're not into being a pickpocket or a 'rinthi NPC-slaughterer.

[Malken]

Give them the bonuses of the desert elves and I guarantee you you'll start seeing elves in the game again.

At the very LEAST they should be able to run from one city to another.

When's the last time you saw a city-elf PC in Tuluk? Hrm, yah, do you still see him/her lately? No, didn't think so.

When's the last time you saw two city-elves PCs in Tuluk? Hrm, yah, years ago.

When nobody wants to play the race, it's time to take a look at it and try to improve it some.

If you don't want the city elves to have the stamina of the desert elves, THEN at least get rid of this insane
pride that they have toward (not) being able to go from one place to another with their legs, so they don't need a mount. (Hah!)

Desert elves: Proud, athletic, desert dwellers. They can run for miles, don't need mounts.
City elves: Tricksters, thieves, scums, that's where their pride comes from, they have absolutely no problem with riding mounts.

That's how it should be, in my opinion.

[Throttle]

When nobody wants to play the race, it's time to take a look at it and try to improve it some.

This is perhaps the shortcoming of ArmageddonMUD, in my opinion: even when a problem grows to such extents that nobody (or everybody) plays a certain type of character, things are not addressed or even acknowledged by the staff until the players practically rebel.

[Manhattan]

Then I challenge you guys to make a city-elf PC and have them ride mounts! You get that race option removed for bad play, oh all the better then, no more city elves forever! Heh, how ironic.

[Cerelum]

Can city elves run between cities like a desert elf can?  If not.  No way in hell would I want to play one, cause elves sorta blow in other aspects, as says the help file.  "If you don't think you can handle playing a physically weak class" or something along those lines.

[Malken]

I don't even think they could run -halfway- between the cities.

[Maybe42or54]

City elves, like D-elves, are territorial. Leaving their city is like a d-elf leaving the grasslands. It shouldn't happen a lot.
City elves, like D-elves, are prideful. Riding a mount like a roundy little bitch because their legs are too weak to carry them? Absurd.

One of the problems that I've had with a city elf is that everyone and their mother goes out of the way to watch you. I was once hidden in a tavern with 7 pcs. Every last one of them were talking, and going on. Then I emoted walking to the bar, and every single one stopped talking. Three of them started watching me.

[Throttle]

City elves, like D-elves, are prideful. Riding a mount like a roundy little bitch because their legs are too weak to carry them? Absurd.

But it makes no sense. Why would city elves take pride in an ability that they don't have? Who are they kidding?

[Cerelum]

City elves, like D-elves, are prideful. Riding a mount like a roundy little bitch because their legs are too weak to carry them? Absurd.

But it makes no sense. Why would city elves take pride in an ability that they don't have? Who are they kidding?

This has often been my bitch too.  D-elves get like massively better stats then C-elves and can run like 500 miles without resting.

C-elves just get nothing and are big pansies.

[Malken]

City elves, like D-elves, are prideful. Riding a mount like a roundy little bitch because their legs are too weak to carry them? Absurd.

But it makes no sense. Why would city elves take pride in an ability that they don't have? Who are they kidding?

That never made sense to me either. What are they proud of? That they are the reason why the entire Byn unit has to stop and wait for them to catch their breath every few minutes or so? Are they proud that they can't be traders by themselves and have to rely on stinkin' roundears to take them from one trading route to another?

The desert elf pride comes from the fact that they have powerful legs that can take them anywhere in the known world, and that is why they don't need no mounts, the city elves, they have their own pride, but in no way should it be related to the fact that they have strong legs as well. They just don't, code-wise. If they do ICly, then at least make it so code-wise, no?

We KNOW what city elves are capable of and what they're all about, but I still don't think that it has anything to do with the distances their legs can take them. Clever? Yup. Tricksters? You bet. Con-Artists extraordinaire? No one's arguing.. But able to run long distances? Pfft, c'mon.

Refusing to ride a mount when you can't run that far without getting exhausted is not pride, it's the whole race just being plainly retarded about it. Some elvish wiseman needs to stand up and speak the truth, unfortunately, the first elf who does so will have his race option taken away.

[brytta.leofa]

That they are the reason why the entire Byn unit has to stop and wait for them to catch their breath every few minutes or so?

Your unit stop and waits for them to catch their breath?
Anybody that don't want to be ridin' can jest catch up.  But I don't pay no contract time for no skinny's peaceful desert strolls.

[Cerelum]

I think they should be able to run like Desert Elves, or just allow them to ride mounts and erase that crap from their history about not wanting to ride.

J-Rod

[Mr.B]

When my played my 100+ day desert strolling elf, I was faced with the problems mentioned in this thread. Don't believe city-elves just plain suck when it comes to combat since my stats were not astronomical with that character, but I still became one of the most powerful combat creatures on the mud. Unfortunately, the desert always kicked my ass (this was after the elf-wide stamina nerf) and I repeatedly mailed the imms about the fact that regular elves, though supposed to be runners - had less stamina then the equivalent human and suffered equally as much as a human would in the desert while running. I thought it was pretty damn stupid that a race known for their awesome, and no less then -awesome- running prowess couldn't beat feet in the desert for more then a minute or two without collapsing from utter exhaustion. I had suggested giving regular elves the ability to run in the desert just like desert elves. Elves would have still suffered from pitifully low stamina totals, would still need to rest more often then desert elves, and would also need to consume more water then their more rugged cousins, the desert elf. I thought it would make elves more playable and less completely restricted to city life. This idea was pretty brutally shot down later and I didn't press the issue. Does anyone here think that my proposal was outrageous?

[Cerelum]

When my played my 100+ day desert strolling elf, I was faced with the problems mentioned in this thread. Don't believe city-elves just plain suck when it comes to combat since my stats were not astronomical with that character, but I still became one of the most powerful combat creatures on the mud. Unfortunately, the desert always kicked my ass (this was after the elf-wide stamina nerf) and I repeatedly mailed the imms about the fact that regular elves, though supposed to be runners - had less stamina then the equivalent human and suffered equally as much as a human would in the desert while running. I thought it was pretty damn stupid that a race known for their awesome, and no less then -awesome- running prowess couldn't beat feet in the desert for more then a minute or two without collapsing from utter exhaustion. I had suggested giving regular elves the ability to run in the desert just like desert elves. Elves would have still suffered from pitifully low stamina totals, would still need to rest more often then desert elves, and would also need to consume more water then their more rugged cousins, the desert elf. I thought it would make elves more playable and less completely restricted to city life. This idea was pretty brutally shot down later and I didn't press the issue. Does anyone here think that my proposal was outrageous?

I've played two desert elves since I got the karma for it...  And one had 150 stamina and the other 175 stamina.  So desert elf stamina is the shit.

I'm talking prompt stamina btw.

[Maybe42or54]

Mr. B, your idea would make me play more city elves. However, I don't think City elves should be leaving the city as much as they do.

[Dusky]

I have never heard that city elves have a pride issue with regard to mounts.  Is that in the docs or is it something that players have come up with?  Because, I recall quite clearly a certain Kuraci city-elf who lived as though he were a desert elf (actually became extremely bad-ass) and it was a marvel of role-play that he took that non-riding disadvantage upon himself.

Point me to the doc, please.

[Maybe42or54]

The helpfiles. The important parts are bolded.

Race Elf  (Character) 


Elves are the second most populous race on the face of Zalanthas, closely following humans. They are taller than humans--mostly standing between around 74 and 90 inches in height--and tend to have slim, light frames. Skin colour ranges from nearly black to pale cream colours; hair is typically dark but shares a similar range of hues. Eye colour among elves is a matter of extraordinary variability. Elven ears are always pointed, and their eyes always almond-shaped. There are two varieties of elves: city elves and desert elves.

City elves are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and have adapted to live by their wits. True to the nature of elves they also live by their quick fingers, and are usually avoided by the honest citizens of other races. Some city elves are members of tribes camped in some run- down space within its walls; others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all.

Desert elves are nearly always members of desert tribes, and wander freely about the wastes hunting for what they need. They tend to be darker in skin colour than city elves, as well as leaner and more muscular. Elves are very long-limbed, and desert elves are runners by nature, capable of a prolonged run across most types of terrain.

The differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.


Roleplaying:


Descended from (or currently a member of) any one of the many desert
tribes, all elves have a cultural bent towards wandering and thievery.
Among elves, theft that relies on wit or nimble fingers is not a crime,
per se, but more of a test of courage. Highly distrustful of all persons
outside their immediate tribe, elves will often go to great lengths to
test the trustworthiness of any companion. Due to their nature as
runners, all elves find the riding of mounts (and usually, riding in
wagons) to be an extremely shameful act--though a few can forgive the
riding habits of other races. In other words, elves will never ride on
mounts or in wagons, as to do so would be to insult one of the few
things they are proud of: their natural speed and endurance on the run. Notes:


Elves are not strong -- in comparison to most of the other humanoid
races of Zalanthas, they are quite weak. They possess other abilities
to compensate. If you are not happy running a character that is
physically weak, you are advised not to choose this race.
Desert elves are not readily available to new players, but city elves
are.

There has got to be a reason they don't lose stamina while running in the city.

[Malken]

Exactly, if there's only one elven race, then make it so code-wise, otherwise, change the docs, because it's false. VERY false.

[Maybe42or54]

I definately agree with Mr. B. All elves should have a natural ability to run a long distance.

I wish it was like this:
Theoretically.
If an D-elf has 207 stamina and loses 3 per room while running in the desert. Able to run 69 rooms.
If a human has 102 Stamina and loses 8 per room, while running in the desert. Able to run 13 room.
Then a C-elf should have 160 stamina and should lose 4-5 stamina while running in the desert. They should be able to run 32-40 rooms.

That would make me happy. In doing so, the D-elf would still be the king of the wastes, and roundies will still have to ride a mount, but a C-elf would still be able to take pride in the run.

[Troicha]

City elves, like D-elves, are prideful. Riding a mount like a roundy little bitch because their legs are too weak to carry them? Absurd.

But it makes no sense. Why would city elves take pride in an ability that they don't have? Who are they kidding?

Check city-running stamina vs. rounders. That's all I'm saying.

[Fathi]

Mr. B, your idea would make me play more city elves. However, I don't think City elves should be leaving the city as much as they do.

Keep in mind "leaving the city" doesn't always mean going out to the desert with the intent of running around the desert itself.

I think it would be perfectly reasonable for a city elf trader or assassin to want to go from Tuluk to Allanak or Luir's for supplies/orders or for a contract.

[Malken]

At the very least, if you're running on the north road, you should have a decent stamina drop nearly equal to the desert elves.

That would allow the city elves to run from one city to another without too much trouble, but if they steer clear from the roads, then that's too bad.

[Manhattan]

I want to play a city elf now.

[Spoon]

City elves are one of my favorite races to play. They're magnets for trouble!

The problem is most city elves turn their pride into sheer arrogance and get killed off very quickly. I suggest acting more subtly. I had a city elf who was very polite in human company, maybe this is one of the elves people think was being played as a human. I think they call it a false sense of security. That's why all your stuff went missing and you thought it was a code bug.

[Adiadochokinesis]

An elf being polite and respectful around humans isn't playing like a human.

An elf genuinely trusting humans is.

It's not a like/dislike thing. It's a trust and scam thing.

An elf could be perfectly capable of liking someone, distrusting them, and wanting to scam them.

[Delstro]

Or an elf that loves a human could want to steal from them constantly to show how courageous they are.

[Adiadochokinesis]

Or an elf that loves a human could want to steal from them constantly to show how courageous they are.

*facepalm*

[Rindan]

I think people are limiting themselves with city elves far too much.  Elves are not so much xenophobic, as lacking in trust.  They basically assume that you are going to try and screw them over at all times because, well, that is what they would do.  That doesn't mean they can't work with others, just that they don't do it with a lot of trust.  So, imagine an elf that runs some sort of specialty goods business.  He uses contacts and connections to get whatever it is that people need.  Most people will deal with him because he has a reputation of getting what people need.  If he wants repeat business, he can't sell junk.  He might skirt the law, he might charge far more than what he spent to get something, he probably has no compunctions about ruining the competition, but he isn't stupid enough to discourage repeat customers.

As far as a lack of trust goes, that doesn't mean they can't deal with others.  It just means that when they are dealing with others, they start with an extremely low level of trust that builds to inhumanly high levels of trust over a long period of time.  So, an elf might hire out a human to deal with people he can't  An elf might hire a human to talk to nobles to expand his business.  His lack of trust might very well mean that he pays a little extra to spy on the human in question to make sure he isn't being screwed.  He might also stipulate the conditions of paying the human such that the human can't take his money and run.  If they worked together long enough, the elf would start testing the human's loyalty.  If the human passed all of the loyalty tests, the elf could eventually build up an absolute level of trust.

Finally, I think people confused prideful and stupid.  Seething in silent rage because a Templar just collected all of your goods in "tax" is prideful.  Helping another Templar to screw the Templar that screwed you is also prideful.  Telling the Templar in question to fuck off is stupid.  If your elves are dying to their pride, I personally think that you are confusing pride with stupidity.  You can be filled with pride and still act humble.  It is like feeling lustful.  You can feel lustful for someone without trying to rape them.  Feeling an emotion is a lot different than acting on it, consequences be damned.

[John]

If anyone's interested in playing together in a city elf tribe, PM me! We'll of course have to wait for our current PCs to die, but this talk has got me excited :-)

[Troicha]

An elf being polite and respectful around humans isn't playing like a human.

An elf genuinely trusting humans is.

It's not a like/dislike thing. It's a trust and scam thing.

An elf could be perfectly capable of liking someone, distrusting them, and wanting to scam them.

This is not only possible, but probable in many cases. Take, for example, thieves. Elves might easily highly respect a human such (even though he's a shortear) because he has chutzpah and finesse!