Merchants feeling a pinch?

[flurry]

I think you meant "isn't a realistic expectation for any class".

Yes, that's what I meant.  Fixed.

However, trading is what merchants are about. Why should no merchant have a business knowing what items to buy to sell elsewhere for a profit? Of course they should, that's what they're about. The merchant buys some samples in one place and then tries to sell them elsewhere. It doesn't take many attempts to spot certain properties that make an item profitable, especially with comprehensive use of their value skill. What does prevent the merchant from capitalizing on this is that lack of coin issue and the thinness of the PC market.

I should have been more clear.  You're absolutely right that making these discoveries and pursuing these opportunities is part of what being a merchant is all about.  What I meant to criticize is the practice of starting a character with an encyclopedic knowledge of precisely which item to buy where and sell where in an effort to unrealistically generate heaps of sid (which I've seen alluded to on the boards before and seen inklings of in-game).   I don't even understand how that would be the least bit challenging or fun, but regardless it affects other pc's in an annoyingly detrimental way.

If a merchant has to grind for months to make each ten thousand coins, then she can't afford to hire guards or motivate plots with coin. She's almost like a no-guild one-subguild PC then.

I think the struggle to get there is part of the fun of it, personally.  And most of the skills are useful way before you get even close to that amount.

[enigma]

If it's taking forever for you to get something from a GMH, then either that's an IC reason for it, or the IMM hasn't gotten around to loading it.  I don't think it would hurt to email that GMH IMM if your order is taking ridiculously long.  It's possible it got overlooked.

[Salt Merchant]

If it's taking forever for you to get something from a GMH, then either that's an IC reason for it, or the IMM hasn't gotten around to loading it.  I don't think it would hurt to email that GMH IMM if your order is taking ridiculously long.  It's possible it got overlooked.

I guess this is derailing my own thread, but this has always struck me as one of the most maddening points of the game.

It's nearly totally OOC driven. I can remember times trying to have a key made. It simply didn't matter how much money my character waved in the face of a NPC stonesmith or merchant or whatever. They'd be played as indifferent or superior, when ICly you'd expect them to be crawling up the walls to get that 10,000 coin contract to do a 50 'sid piece of work. It could take RL months for anything to happen when the stonesmith on the site could duplicate the key in one hour of work.

I hope Arm 2.0 addresses this in some way, such as having a scripted locksmith that, when presented with a key, can make a duplicate in the material of choice at a nominal cost. Let accomplished PC woodworkers/stonesmiths make keys too.

[Desertman]

I recently had a merchant, a few months ago. The first merchant I have ever played actually. I could easily generate several thousand coins a reboot, and never sell to any shops.

He knew alot of people though, and made alot of connections.

This was after I was very good at crafting and was able to produce the nicer items that PC's want. I agree that in the beginning, before you get good at your crafting, you might as well be furniture, because you arent going anywhere for a long time.

Solutions....

Spam craft.

Make connections for the future while you spam craft.

Sell to shops when you can to get by.

One day when you are a really talented crafter, remember all of those connections, and start selling your uber cool items to PC's for tons...

Twinky, but its the lay of the land. *shrugs*

[AmandaGreathouse]

It's not supposed to be that easy to be an independent merchant and rack up so much wealth in coins.  I personally think it's ridiculous that indies can still make more than merchants of the Houses, who are supposed to be the dominant figures in the economy of Zalanthas.  Even despite all the complaints about shops lacking coins, it's still possible.  Logically, common people should be climbing over each other to get these lucrative jobs with the merchant Houses, but because it's so much easier to get richer as an independent, they don't.  Independents SHOULD have a lot more trouble finding buyers for their goods.  A- Independents don't have the reputation earned by the Houses over many generations, and B- Goods made by independents are not of the same caliber of quality as those produced by merchant Houses.

Ok, so, please feel free to point out flaws in my logic, being as I am still on my first character, a merchant, who is not part of  one of the merchant houses. But, to me, working for one of the merchant houses would have been awesome. I even emailed Kadius about it. But, she is not really doing the indie thing for coin. And, from what I understand, having free food, water, and shelter, as well as job security and a mentor, steady pay, and the safety on not having to (possibly) risk our life every time you want to make a few coins are all driving forces behind joining merchant houses, not to mention the added prestige.

As for my merchant, they are not feeling a pinch, in fact, if I was going about things just for the coin, I could easily make a few thousand sid per week. Because I walked the shops, got to know the selling values of everything she has, which NPC's gave her the fairest prices, Who bought what, and what they paid for it, who sold what, and what they paid for it, and so forth.  If you are having problems selling one thing, sell something else. Ditto for places, if you have problems sellking in one place, go somewhere else.

Yes, the pricing isn't near what you could get from some other PC's for the same thing, but it puts a roof over your head. And, as for the amounts made by the members of various merchant houses, it would also seem neccessary to take into account that your higher-ups make more than you, you have many things provided for you, and then there is the overhead for supplies, storehouses, travel, and the ammenities that are free for you, well, the money for those comes from somewhere.

I like the way it is now. Because if you want to be a successful unclanned merchant, you have to put effort in and actually get to know the economy of the place you are in. You have to be realistic about haggling NPC's or else starve for them not buying from you at fiar prices from you trying to undercut them or overcharge them. There are limits to the things that can be sold to each store. But, if you are using the reboot and people coming along and selling till stores are broke right afterwords as a reason to be upset.... That just isn't right.

Because when people do do this, they are going to spend their money elsewhere, and, as a merchant, your character would know that say, in Tuluk, someone with a lot of coin is likely to buy spice, or a new outfit etc etc.And you learn to sell in the places where the money goes to. Because those are the shops that can afford to buy. And, I know that the reboot is not something that characters would know about, but seriously, my character kinda thinks of about every seven weeks as being like tax time, people have a lot more money to spend, and if you follow the money, you can easily get some of it too.

Next time I play a merchant, I do want to try out a merchant house though, because I would really enjoy seeing what having a clanned charater is all about. And sorry for digging up the thread, but I felt I had a valid point to make. 

[Salt Merchant]

As for my merchant, they are not feeling a pinch, in fact, if I was going about things just for the coin, I could easily make a few thousand sid per week. Because I walked the shops, got to know the selling values of everything she has, which NPC's gave her the fairest prices, Who bought what, and what they paid for it, who sold what, and what they paid for it, and so forth.  If you are having problems selling one thing, sell something else. Ditto for places, if you have problems sellking in one place, go somewhere else.

The problem isn't that profitable trades aren't possible in principle. They are. It's that the shops very quickly run out of money after reboot. My merchant character didn't travel much because it took weeks RL simply to sell items brought back from a previous trip. Especially since I refused to mess the game up for other people by logging in immediately after reboot and running around, soaking each shop of coin in turn and selling items to the item limit.

And some items (such as fine silk apparel) simply cannot be sold at all (at least anywhere near full price) because the shops don't even begin with enough coin to buy them.

So much for the trading part of being a merchant. The character discovered one special situation where the purchasing power seemingly was unlimited and started to capitalize on that. But the level of spam crafting necessary destroyed my interest. There is money in being a merchant character, as the crafting skills develop, but in my opinion it's at the cost of reasonable play.

[AmandaGreathouse]

I understand your POV on this completely. In fact, most of my profits come from having a crafting subguild. And I totally understand the thing about shops not having enough coin. My character once bought a silk shirt, and, after being given a different shirt, she tried to sell it back. The shop offered her only a quarter of the price, and even then, could not afford it. I guess, I am just trying to say that, I haven't had to hard a time of it. Yeah, she isn't rolling in the sid, but I play off peak, and she is barely working due to stuff in her personal life and the risk entailed in getting the supplies to craft with to sell.

[veryalien]

It has gone from feast to famine (literally in some cases) for players who sold their items to NPCs.

I used to play about a year or two ago and a lot has changed in this regard.

I'm fine with balancing things but at this stage unless you have lots of players who want to buy things from you you're screwed. Every second that ticks away in-game is another second you have to pay for in terms of food/water.

In my opinion if the amount of coin in the game is going to be tweaked this way then lower stabling costs to 5 sid or even 1 sid. It's my biggest expense right now.

[veryalien]

The point of being a merchant should be that the warrior with his glasshacker is gonna be spending 90% on the things you make, so you get all that sid with less effort and relative safety. So rather than going out into the wastes and having to worry about all those dangerous things, you can pay yourself a hunter to go and grab you some materials, then make some armor and a few weapons in the comfort of your apartment and sell it to that Warrior that just came in with a hunk of sid/glass from

The problem is the merchant can't afford to buy things from the glasshacker wielding warrior. I think that's what people are complaining about. The economy has been tweaked but not balanced.

Here's a thought, why not setup wholesale buying grounds for different merchant houses? This will fix the issue for good. You have hides, go to the local Kadius warehouse and sell your hides, at a market price. If too many people are selling supple hides then lower the price on the supple hides. If PC merchants are buying lots of supple hides then raise the price. Leave a factor in that slowly stabilizes prices between reboots.

I realize this requires a lot of programming but it's the only way to fix things so that the NPC market compliments the PC one.

[Akaramu]

Many of my PCs would absolutely have loved to buy things from PC merchants, but could never really afford it. The monthly earnings from clans, even in those highly valued aide positions, seemed to just barely be enough for drinks at taverns and the occasional bribe. I just don't know how to make money as a clanned character, but then, you all know that I suck at this game. 

[Shiroi Tsuki]

I just don't know how to make money as a clanned character, but then, you all know that I suck at this game. 

You aren't the only one.

[enigma]

There are plenty of ways to make more money as a clanned character.  You just have to find them.

[Lizzie]

Around a month or so ago, I walked into a "parts store" (the shops that buy and sell hides, chitin, bone, etc), looking for a certain type of raw material that isn't all that hard to get if you're a hunter, but pretty expensive if you're not and need to buy it.

I watched another PC walk in, open his pack, LOOK AT ME, get all the stuff he was selling from his pack, and sell it ALL to the NPC merchant within a matter of seconds.

I -would- have paid more than what this PC got from the NPC merchant. I -would- have provided him with some RP, and possibly (probably) the opportunity to continue making BETTER future profits from me than he could possibly have gotten from the NPC.

I mean, it's one thing to need to sell stuff off in a shop - and just get rid of a few bits of crap that you've been carrying around awhile. It's another thing entirely to forgo roleplay in exchange for automated sid-collecting.

I was disgusted by this experience, and have to say that unfortunately it isn't the first time I've had one like it.  Another time I had spent RL days trying to unload something via RP with other PCs...finally brought it to an NPC shop, sold it, and less than a RL hour later, saw someone else walk out of that shop with the item I sold. As if players of PCs would rather pay more getting things from NPCs, than spend 15 minutes RPing out a sale with another character. As if players of PCs would rather earn less from NPCs, than spend 15 minutes of RPing out a sale with another character.

It's just really disheartening and makes me wonder if I should just stop trying, and join in with the automatons who make their fortunes by neglecting the PC population.

[Cutthroat]

It's just really disheartening and makes me wonder if I should just stop trying, and join in with the automatons who make their fortunes by neglecting the PC population.

Don't. In my experience I have found that there are a lot of nifty things that one could get in what could have essentially been a PC-only market, and there are still a lot of these items that are sold to NPCs. But I think a lot of people have the idea that NPCs are simply more convenient, and this may be true, but there is also the idea that most people on Zalanthas probably don't care about how quickly they can get rid of something (in most cases), but how much they can snag for it. And if that is true, more PCs should be buying and selling things from each other.

[Malken]

I'm feeling a pinch, yah, I think I pinched a nerve from carrying the 60K of coins my merchant has. 

[Spoon]

Doesn't anyone feel odd role playing a commoner who makes an absurd amount of coin?

I always try to keep the amount of coin I make in context with my PCs background and current situation. Anyone with enough experience in this game knows how to use the code to make a lot of money, don't you people get bored doing it over and over with each new character?

[Lizzie]

I -could- have made tens of thousands of sids with some of my characters, but it didn't make sense for them to be that rich so I didn't try as hard. Instead, I spent more time "tavern sitting" or hunting, or hanging around various watering holes chatting with the locals. I also experimented with lots of raw materials, knowing full well how badly I sucked at crafting with those particular materials, just so I could bust a bunch of them and have to spend more sids buying more

[Malken]

I -could- have made tens of thousands of sids with some of my characters, but it didn't make sense for them to be that rich so I didn't try as hard. Instead, I spent more time "tavern sitting" or hunting, or hanging around various watering holes chatting with the locals. I also experimented with lots of raw materials, knowing full well how badly I sucked at crafting with those particular materials, just so I could bust a bunch of them and have to spend more sids buying more

That's true until you realize that you see the same 2-3 PCs days in and days out, and eventually, you just stop going where they are sitting because you just have absolutely nothing left of interest to chat about, so at some point I prefer to just hide in my little hole and craft me a few things to pass time, or I just log out. The time I found my current character the most exciting to play is when he was actually struggling to make coins and when he was trying out different "recipes" and ways to make money. These days, I don't try "hard" either to make money, actually, I'd say that I probably spend 1/10th of my time online crafting, yet with the way the economy is on Armageddon, it's quite easy to make a profit if you just know what to do and if you have the skills to do so.

Sure, I could spend 0/10th of my time not crafting and just socializing, but where I currently play, the area is often so empty or with always the same PCs, like I said, that sometimes I just avoid PCs on purpose just because I know I have absolutely nothing of interest to share with them. It's probably a personal problem of mine, though, or a bad choice of class selection for me, and I'm not sure if it has much to do with this thread.

[Akaramu]

There are plenty of ways to make more money as a clanned character.  You just have to find them.

And play during the right times, and hope they are IC 

Of course if the PC doesn't mind getting involved in shifty dealings or leaving the city despite not being allowed to, then it's easier.

But, back on track.

/end of derail

[Shimrod]

Heh, my first character is a merchant and I'm awful lol.

Tried crafting and only wasted most of my starting money destroying hides. Still haven't successfully made an item.
Tried gathering outside and (apart from verging on death 3 times and losing my mount) broke even on salt gathering after rebuying the water I used.
Tried selling items to npcs, but they don't want them.
Tried selling to PCs and nearly got killed for lacking a license (that I can no longer afford).
Tried to join a house but haven't seen a house PC to join with in 15 played hours. And got the boot (on pain of death) from the only tavern that ever has any players in it.

Not here for sympathy or tips - this PC will either die of thirst or I'll figure out this damned game.

[X-D]

sounds like your having a great time.

[BlackMagic0]

Heh, my first character is a merchant and I'm awful lol.

Tried crafting and only wasted most of my starting money destroying hides. Still haven't successfully made an item.
Tried gathering outside and (apart from verging on death 3 times and losing my mount) broke even on salt gathering after rebuying the water I used.
Tried selling items to npcs, but they don't want them.
Tried selling to PCs and nearly got killed for lacking a license (that I can no longer afford).
Tried to join a house but haven't seen a house PC to join with in 15 played hours. And got the boot (on pain of death) from the only tavern that ever has any players in it.

Not here for sympathy or tips - this PC will either die of thirst or I'll figure out this damned game.

sounds like your having a great time.

Does sound like quite a lot of fun.. THATS THE SPIRIT!

[Gimfalisette]

Not here for sympathy or tips - this PC will either die of thirst or I'll figure out this damned game.

Welcome to Armageddon Your PC may die of thirst, AND you will have figured out some stuff about the game. I do hope you'll roll another character when your current one dies, and try out some other aspect of Zalanthas. Joining the Byn as a warrior is, of course, highly recommended for anyone and everyone; it's part of the quintessential ARM experience. Extra points if your character is named Amos.

[Elgiva]

For me, Armageddon isn't about "winning" and gaining thousands of sids every other week. I think the reason why I play the game is because it is kind of challenge. And "needing to gain <whatever> amount of money to do <whatever>" is kind of challenge to me. If I need money so desperately, I'll try everything what would my character do - visit all merchant in this city, speak with every passing-by person to try to sell more, travel to another city, try to sell there... and eventually there is a success... or not. My char might beg or join the clan or steal or murder or whatever else would fit his personality. And this all I'd miss if I'd just stand up and go to sell to the nearest NPC anytime I need money for a new dress.

Just in my opinion, of course.

[flurry]

Doesn't anyone feel odd role playing a commoner who makes an absurd amount of coin?

Yes, so I don't.  After a few thousand sid I don't see the point.  Unless it's being used to generate plots, it's just a number. I also think the presence of unrealistically wealthy characters can be a real drag on the roleplay of other characters.

At its best, wealth can cause plots to flourish.  At its worst, it squelches conflict and struggle. Achieve it realistically and use it wisely.