Skill: Chase - Solution to lame raider scenes.

[Rindan]

Personally, I think "chase" can be made really simple.  Copy and paste the "follow" code to the "chase" command.  Delete the part about unhitching.  Make the "chase" command NOT turn off when combat is initiated.  If someone drops out of line of sight, turn off the chase command.  Make chase a no-delay command, BUT don't let it skip movement delays.  In other words, you can "chase" someone the second you enter a room, but they can run out and you will not be able to go after them until your movement delay is over.

What does this do?

-Faster people will always be able to catch slower people.  Yes, your human will now stand absolutely zero chance of out running a desert elf on an empty sand sand dune.

-Higher stamina will let slower people still escape.  Your dwarf might not be as fast as a human, but your fleeing dwarf can probably run longer.  You might get attack each and every room before you can get your flee off, but if you keep it up you will eventually escape.

-Aggressors now actually stand a chance in hell of catching someone who runs.  Right now, catching a running person pretty much relies entirely on your internet connection and your reflexes.  This is stupid.  Faster characters should catch slower characters.  If you couldn't perfectly flee from someone threatening you 100% of the time people might actually spend more time threatening, and less time subduing.

-Subdue would not be the end all be all to raiding.  OMG.  You could actually threaten someone with your awesome sword skills, instead of your awesome subdue skills.  It is a very sad sad day when "subdue" is feared a few thousand times more than than a 40 day old warrior mul armed with two pointed sticks.

If you want to get real fancy, you can make the flee skill increase the delay it takes for someone to chase you.  Under NO circumstances should a fleeing or running "unhitch" a peruser and require them to go into manual "mash keys on the keyboard" mode.  A jacked up flee skill should buy you a few more seconds to run, not the magikal ability to render your victim unable to follow you as you e;e;e;e;s;s;e;w;s;e;n.  

The only legitimate way to escape someone who is chasing you should be to run longer, run faster, hide, or use magik.  Having a faster connection or trusting in their inability to spam movement keys as fast as you shouldn't be one of those ways.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

I abso-fucking-lutely dig Rindan's version of chase.

[Apocalyptic_Cow]

I agree with Rindan, and the past posts that have proposed similar simple forms of chase. Why complicate it?

Zalanthas is a harsh world. The ability to chase will only make it scarier. Will this spurn playability? Of course not, people will simply have to prepare and plan more to prevent themselves from being in bad situations alone. This will emphasize group-oriented play. It is another tactical angle, which is a good thing.

We wouldn't reduce combat to who can mash their keyboard the fastest, so we shouldn't allow it for any other aspect of the game either, especially something as fundamental as giving chase in a harsh gameworld.

[psionic fungus]

First:

Follow works without error and using it to follow someone that doesn't want you following them is cheating IMO. If you follow me in the current version of the game the way it works now, expect me to immediately unhitch you if I don't want you following me.

Give 'unhitch' a little lag, and I don't have a problem with it.  I -do- think it's lame that you can 'unhitch' instantly, you should have to take some time to get away, 'flee self', or -something-.

However, I don't think following someone who doesn't want you to is cheating... There are still plenty of ways to get away.  The only exception I see is when following from a room away.  You shouldn't be able to unhitch someone who is a room away, but it should also make it significantly easier to 'lose' them.


Second:

Copy and paste the "follow" code to the "chase" command.

Why?  Why have 3 commands that do -almost- the same thing, when you could just as easily make -one- command that does all of these things depending on the circumstances of use?

The only legitimate way to escape someone who is chasing you should be to run longer, run faster, hide, or use magik. Having a faster connection or trusting in their inability to spam movement keys as fast as you shouldn't be one of those ways.

So long as turning multiple corners quickly, ducking into a doorway, climbing up a tree, or anything else that takes you out of your pursuer's line-of-sight is considered 'hiding', I'm with it.

[Rindan]

Copy and paste the "follow" code to the "chase" command.

Why?  Why have 3 commands that do -almost- the same thing, when you could just as easily make -one- command that does all of these things depending on the circumstances of use?

Because none of the three "almost" commands work.  All of them drop dead the second someone types flee;e;s;e;e;s;n;n;e;s.

So long as turning multiple corners quickly, ducking into a doorway, climbing up a tree, or anything else that takes you out of your pursuer's line-of-sight is considered 'hiding', I'm with it.

No, I am pretty sure climbing a tree will work just fine if you are a better climber and he isn't.  If you climb and he chases but fails his climb check, you are free.  Hoary.

If "taking multiple corners quickly" translates into "e;s;e;e;s;n;e;s;w;n" on the salt flats, then I am going to have to disagree that it should be a legit way of escaping.  If "taking multiple corners quickly" translates into "I am a city elf and I am a fast mother fucker, just try and chase my thieving ass" than we are in complete agreement.  A city elf should be able to merrily run faster than your normal human and easily escaping the chase and 'duck into a doorway' with the hide skill (or simply keep running).  Your pudgy human on the other hand should stand absolutely zero chances of accomplishing the same feat when up against an elf.

Chasing in Armageddon is very very very broken.  The kill first and ask questions later mentality comes from the fact that unless you codedly hold someone down, they WILL escape anything less than a city wide crime flag.  

There is something very wrong with the code when your elf mining buddy pulls his sword on your pudgy little dwarf, tyeing "emote smirks;e;s;e;e;n;e;s;e;" is a surefire way of escaping.  Chasing in Armageddon is unquestionably broken.

[X-D]

I agree with Rindan STILL on this subject...and anybody else that agrees with him.

[Angela Christine]

Meh.  As long as you are a sufficient distance from a safe place, I've always found "hunt" works remarkably well.  The flee-er is almost always running.  As long as you aren't within 20 rooms of a city, a follower can walk and "hunt" them down.  


I was resting in a cave near the salt flats, and a thieving elf came and stole my kank.  I couldn't have caught the elf, but because he was running the kank, and kanks don't like to run, he had to keep stopping to rest.  Walking I caught up to him outside the gates to Red Storm, which were closed.  He sprinted off again, kank in tow, and me in dogged pursuit.  Of course even walking I had to rest eventually, and he managed to drag the kank through the gates of Allanak and get it stored in a stable before I caught up to him again.     NPC stable masters are remarkably uncooperative, and there didn't seem to be any PC lawmen around, so that was the end of that.  But it is possible for a chase down a someone who is running in a panic, as long as you keep your head.

Tek knows those raptor bastards have chased me into the ground more than once.  They don't run, but they don't give up either.

[X-D]

And, like pretty much all NPCs including raptor regen stam while standing.

Even with maxed ranger hunt, if they know you are after them, they will get away. Also, a point to a chase skill/command is to help fix the fact that you cannot see somebody 1 mile away in an open area 100 miles wide if they turn out of line of sight. The hunt delay is long enough that somebody will move 3-10 rooms after you stop and hunt 1 time.

Only real chance you have is to get that hunt off then from that make a guess where they are going and try and cut them off...and even then its horrible how easy it is to get around somebody.

[Dalmeth]

Tek knows those raptor bastards have chased me into the ground more than once.  They don't run, but they don't give up either.

I'll just state that this really isn't really a good comparison.  The code behind raptors would be ridiculous if applied to PCs.

By the way, if chasing is broke, then real life is broken as well.  In a world without guns, the first person to break into a run without injury generally gets away.  The only way the pursuer can really catch up is if they move faster or know the terrain better, use more efficient paths, and can move faster.  So you see, it's all a matter of moving faster.  Even in real life.

With arrows being as lame as they are, no way to wound the victim or mount, and without more varied types of terrain to make travel on mounts more channeled onto direct paths, the first one to run generally keeps ahead.  It's perfectly logical.

[Angela Christine]

It is hard to sprint and beat someone down at the same time.  You may not be able to outrun that elf in a footrace, but the elf doesn't just need to keep up with you, he needs to be able to engage you.  I don't engage in many chases myself (though I do occasionally need to catch a rogue kitty that escapes from the yard) but it seems that it would be hard to run and stab at the same time.  To stab accurately you would naturally tend to slow down, at which point the target who is only trying to run and doesn't want to fight would be out of range again.

I think you'd need to tackle the guy you are chasing to get him to stop running, like they do in football.  Running along behind him trying to stab him while he runs (hit <guy>) just doesn't seem like a winning idea.  We don't have a tackle command, but maybe bash would work?

[X-D]

Um...First...in RL the advantage actually goes to the chaser not the chasee and depends mostly on stamina and over all agility...specialy on broken ground.

Second if you get close enough to stab at somebody running away...lets see...they are facing away from you, unable to dodge or defend and you are poking with a pointy thing...pretty much counts as a backstab...I've never had a problem chasing somebody down myself and smacking them in the back of the head or knees with my bat...which has ended the chase 100% of the time.

And I've never lost sight of somebody a 100 yards away in an open field simply because they turned at right angles either.

(edit) And since your bringing up football, ever heard the term clipping or seen it? Knocking somebody down running away is silly easy.

[Rindan]

By the way, if chasing is broke, then real life is broken as well.  In a world without guns, the first person to break into a run without injury generally gets away.  The only way the pursuer can really catch up is if they move faster or know the terrain better, use more efficient paths, and can move faster.  So you see, it's all a matter of moving faster.  Even in real life.

I don't think anyone disagrees it is a matter of moving faster.  The point is that it should be your character's speed, not your internet connection nor your ability to quickly spam a mirror image of e;s;e;e;s;n;e;n;e that should matter.  I am all for desert elves out running humans on foot.

With arrows being as lame as they are, no way to wound the victim or mount, and without more varied types of terrain to make travel on mounts more channeled onto direct paths, the first one to run generally keeps ahead.  It's perfectly logical.

If two people take off on equal kanks, I have absolutely no problem what-so-ever with the runner always staying just out of reach.  This is exactly what would  happen with what I propose.  Two people moving at equal speed would never engage.  That said, the runner would not be able to escape by magikally typing e;s;e;s;s;e;e;e.  The runner would find the person trailing him staying just behind him and ready to whack him a good one should he slow for a moment.

This also would make non-kank beasts actually useful.  If a fast mount like and erdlu would make an excellent raider as it could easily catch a kank and knock the rider off.  A kank on the other hand would be a less than perfect raiding beast as it would not be able to gain on an equally fast kank.

It is hard to sprint and beat someone down at the same time. You may not be able to outrun that elf in a footrace, but the elf doesn't just need to keep up with you, he needs to be able to engage you.

Many, many, many years of military history (both with an without guns) argue differently.  The easiest type of person to hit is one with their back to you.  If you are running at a dead sprint you are not looking behind you and have no chance of dodging any attacks coming in.  Sure, they won't hit with the full force of someone standing still and powering back his swings, but every single is going to hit home.  Further, that doesn't even begin to touch on the fact that sliding your obsidian axe between someone's legs at a full sprint is likely to do unpleasant things to both their balance and legs.

Finally, this all ignores the simple fact that irregardless if running is a good defensive maneuver to counter blows raining in on your back, upi are mpt going to shake someone a few steps behind you while running in an open field.  The best you can hope for is that your chaser is slower than you and you out distance him, he is as quick as you but you run longer, or that you are slower but have some sort of terrain advantage (climb).



In a world with chase, a kank might not be the best traveling animal.  Raiders would ride Erdlu.  Elves (both city and desert) alleged speed would actually mean something.  Raiders who are faster than you might actually threaten you instead of spaming subdue.  You might actually take the threat seriously and respond accordingly instead of doing an 'emote smirks;e;e;s;e;s;n;n;w;n;s.  Subdue and locked doors might stop being the end all and be all to killing your fellow humanoids.  It might be worth while to hire out a Byner for an escort to Luir's.  A thug who offers the 'your money or your life' proposition might actually stand a chance of getting some money or taking a life.

[Flying Erdlu]

I've never had a problem chasing somebody down myself and smacking them in the back of the head or knees with my bat...which has ended the chase 100% of the time.

Note to self: Don't piss off X-D in RL.

[Dalmeth]

I don't think anyone disagrees it is a matter of moving faster.  The point is that it should be your character's speed, not your internet connection nor your ability to quickly spam a mirror image of e;s;e;e;s;n;e;n;e that should matter.  I am all for desert elves out running humans on foot.

The real problem is field of view, not any coded ability to chase.  I think being able train watch on a PC from a distance should help.  I tend to point toward a method of seeing objects apart from the cardinal directions, but that's just me.

[psionic fungus]

Uh.... Does anyone else understand what Rindan is saying?

Copy and paste the "follow" code to the "chase" command.

Why? Why have 3 commands that do -almost- the same thing, when you could just as easily make -one- command that does all of these things depending on the circumstances of use?

Because none of the three "almost" commands work. All of them drop dead the second someone types flee;e;s;e;e;s;n;n;e;s.

One of the three "almost" (what?) commands doesn't even exist.

Why could the proposed code changes not take 'flee' into account? If you are 'running' and 'watching' someone you have 'followed' (a hypothetical 'chase' mode) then 'flee' will not break the 'follow'...

All I'm saying is that I would prefer a single command that does all these things, rather than three seperate commands.  Some people never even learn about 'shadow', do we need to have another issue with 'chase'?  'Follow' is a command that is cross-mud, and (I believe) fairly easily adapted to work as 'shadow' and 'chase' do (or would).

Having a whole page full of commands (such as pemote, hemote, semote, etc.) is incredibly confusing for newbs, and even some veterans.  I think it is always preferable to use one powerful and dynamic command over a multitude of slight variations.

If "taking multiple corners quickly" translates into "e;s;e;e;s;n;e;s;w;n" on the salt flats, then I am going to have to disagree that it should be a legit way of escaping.

Dude, I mean what I say... Are there corners in a salt-flat?

I think this line-of-sight issue could be somewhat resolved with the coordinate system rooms 2.Arm will use, it could probably determine diagonal line-of-sight regardless if movement allows them...

But it could be an issue...

[Rindan]

Having a whole page full of commands (such as pemote, hemote, semote, etc.) is incredibly confusing for newbs, and even some veterans.  I think it is always preferable to use one powerful and dynamic command over a multitude of slight variations.

If your only complaint is syntax, than I have no argument with you.  I don't care what the command is called so long as it lets you chase people and render "emote smirks;flee;e;s;e;e;s;e;e;" impotent.

I think this line-of-sight issue could be somewhat resolved with the coordinate system rooms 2.Arm will use, it could probably determine diagonal line-of-sight regardless if movement allows them...

But it could be an issue...

The line of sight will always be an issue in a coordinate based system.  N;NE takes you out of line of sight in a coordinate system with diagonals as quickly as N;E does in a system without diagonals.  The only difference is that when you are walking in a world with diagonals, you need to look in 8 different directions instead of just 4 to see what is around you.

[psionic fungus]

The line of sight will always be an issue in a coordinate based system. N;NE takes you out of line of sight in a coordinate system with diagonals as quickly as N;E does in a system without diagonals. The only difference is that when you are walking in a world with diagonals, you need to look in 8 different directions instead of just 4 to see what is around you.

Actually, no.  I was suggesting being able to "look ne" but not move in diagonal directions. Additionally, since every room is on an x,y,z axis, it is possible that the code could check every room in a line-of-sight 'cone' for viewable characters, objects, or sight obstructions and display them in a vague manner, so you know that something is "far to the north-west', but not that it is exactly 1n,2w or 2n,1w... As you moved closer, you would be able to determine the exact location of the person/object.

[Ktavialt]

Fan of Rindan's post, although I'd opt for a more in depth chase system than that, just based on real life concepts of chasing.

- The code should take into account that elves could chase most other races, maybe even mounted people, without any problem.

- The code should allow for mistakes, such as tripping and falling by the runner or the pursuer, and either slow down chasing (ie. give partial/full movement lag) or not have the person be followed at all.  Agility should be considered highly in this.

- The code should allow for a chance of getting lost amongs crowded areas like the bazaar, maybe even rocky areas.

- The code should allow for some sort of attack to push the pursuer to the ground, although bash may suffice for that (ie. bash pursuer, if success, run away after).

- I dunno even though half-giants aren't agile, and not generally quick, they would have a longer stride, maybe they'd be equal to humans at this. Maybe not.  Either way, a good subdue would keep the whole chase from occurring =).

- Oh yeah, and it would be neat if subduing a mounted person would occur in an attempt to grab the mounted rider and tug him/her off.

Anyways, my thoughts.

[Dusky]

I am naive.  I'm still surprised when someone spam-walks by me in the wilderness.

[Armaddict]

Still violently opposed to chase.  Violently.  Anyone who chases me will be killed in the game, then killed within 2 minutes in RL by a sniper bullet through their monitor.

[Janna]

I abso-fucking-lutely dig Rindan's version of chase.

[Dalmeth]

The line of sight will always be an issue in a coordinate based system.  N;NE takes you out of line of sight in a coordinate system with diagonals as quickly as N;E does in a system without diagonals.  The only difference is that when you are walking in a world with diagonals, you need to look in 8 different directions instead of just 4 to see what is around you.

Some time back, I suggested a command whereby a PC could take a survey of his or her surroundings or one particular direction and get a return with a vague representation of the general bearing anything particularly noteworthy.  At least then, some sort of line of sight could be maintained.

However, with the chase code as mentioned, all a fleeing victim would need to do is flee after being attacked by someone and use the old formula to escape.  The attacker will still be stuck in the delay after initiating the attack.  However, if the chasing attacker is still able to follow after making the first attack, then there's no way a victim will ever be able to break a chase unless the attacker uses bash and fails, which if they're warriors, they don't need to do anyway on anything but other warriors.

Pursuit will still be broken.

[Bluefae]

Rindan's post does seem to have a certain elegance to it, in as much as it would likely require the least amount of work for a hefty return.  Well put.   

[Salt Merchant]

I would like to see something done about the other half of the problem, which no one mentions. Namely, the way raiders can just more or less materialize by your side without your being able to see them coming.

Sure, you can watch in one direction. What about the other three? It's hard to see how a group of raiders could creep up on someone standing out on the dusty plains and suddenly have a spear to her throat. She would see them coming long before that and get a head start in the chase being discussed here.

[The7DeadlyVenomz]

Pretty sure the proposed method of looking in all directions, not just the cardinal ones, speaks to that precise problem.