Watch the door, whouldja?

[FantasyWriter]

I think it would be nice to be able for the primary renter of an apartment to be able to bar the door from the inside against other tenants.  This could be used for several reasons, especially for leaders of small groups:

    1. To carry on business transactions without being interrupted by your underlings.
    2. Be able to discuss an underling's "secret gift" that the rest of your clan doesn't know about it.
    3. Dealing with your closet-case ungemmed friend that you pay or barter with for his services.
    4. Private meeting. (No, I'm not repeating myself, I mean REALLY private meetings with that certain someone).
    5. My personal favorite:

Code Select Expand


The traitorous, brown haired human enters from the west.

You say, in sirihish:
    "Been scraping a little of my profit off the top, eh?"

The traitorous, brown haired man lowers his head, looking at his feet.

>bar door
You bar the door preventing anyone from entering or leaving it.

>draw mace
You brandish your obsidian-headed mace.

>sap traitorous
You sap him on the head, and he crumples to the ground.

>grin
You grin.

[Maso]

I like it. Cool little detail anyway.

[psionic fungus]

I've often thought it would be useful to bar doors from the inside.  The number one reason I have for this is because it makes it so you can only (steathily anyhow, I would like to see door breaking as well) burglarize someone when they are logged in but not home (or, for NPCs, just not home).

[BuNutzCola]

Though I like the idea, in some cases it could be abused. For instance in the above poster's example of blocking the door shut when the owner is not logged in, prevent thievery.

Do you bar your front door closed when you head to bed at night? Nah. For most, it's left unlocked. For some, it's the knob lock, and for even fewer is the deadbolt used.

Not only that but how many Zalanthan dwellings are/would be equipped with such things? I could understand maybe the local tavern having a door barred, or a merchant house, but your average shitty apartments where most tenants (at least pc ones) oft die within the first term of rental? Eh.

Also, would this imply joe pickpocket could step into the nearest place and bar the door shut against the legions of soldiers following along?

I do like the idea, but perhaps at the very least a counter ability to break down doors (which would set off crim code in more public places/alert nearby npc's).

Overall nice stuff

[Only He Stands There]

Do you bar your front door closed when you head to bed at night? Nah. For most, it's left unlocked. For some, it's the knob lock, and for even fewer is the deadbolt used.

Uhh... I don't know where YOU live, but... around here, my door's deadbolted, knob-locked, and chained unless I'm going through it or letting someone in.

I sleep with all those locks in place, eat with all those locks in place, and watch TV/play Arm with all those locks in place... and the crime rate around these parts is probably a hundredth what it is in Zalanthas.

[psionic fungus]

Dude.

Barring doors is FAR a far more common practice in ancient and/or less developed societies.  Making a bar for your door is easy.  Making a lock is fricken DIFFICULT.  All of these apartments are equipped with lock mechanisms that may be impossible IRL.

Also, it makes sense to bar your door at night in Allanak or Tuluk.  I lock my doors, deadbolt as well.  Most people with doors in a society like Zalanthas would probably bar theirs. People certainly lock them when they log out (or sleep). I see no reason why Zalanthas could not or would not bar their doors.

What is the issue? All I see is increased roleplay.  If you want to bash down a door, and get wanted, I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to do so, whether someone is logged on or not.  However, if you want to sneak into their place unknown, I see no reason why you should not have to observe their habits and make your move when you know they are away from home.  Knowing the PC you are robbing is probably logged in, and may be coming home, would make the burglary experience much more realistic, and perhaps prevent the majorty of the situations where people find their entire apartment emptied.

[FantasyWriter]

Though I like the idea, in some cases it could be abused. For instance in the above poster's example of blocking the door shut when the owner is not logged in, prevent thievery.

Maybe you could avoid that by putting a one hour(game time) laps on it to wear off.

[Tisiphone]

Thief-types, with enough strength or skill, should also be able to lift the bar from the outside, with the proper tools. I doubt most Zalanthan doors fit their frames well enough to keep someone from inserting a knife.

[Kyviantre]

Great idea.  Whole heartedly support, but also need a method of bashing down the doors (as said above), which would presumably make a good deal of noise.

So you don't want to bash down a lot of people's doors on a regular basis unless you're being ordered to by someone making sure everyone "saw nothin' gov"

[Maso]

In regards to the abuse of it by logged out players using it to stop thievery. Maybe Arm 2.0 will have accessible windows etc (probably with locks that need picking), that skilled burglars could use to gain access if necessary.

I highly doubt that underling you want to keep out during a secret meeting would use a window.

It would also make higher level flats more valuable. I know for me personally, if I am living alone in an apartment block, I will -not- live on the ground floor.

[FantasyWriter]

Thief-types, with enough strength or skill, should also be able to lift the bar from the outside, with the proper tools. I doubt most Zalanthan doors fit their frames well enough to keep someone from inserting a knife.

I agree very much so that it should be able to bashed and "pick"ed.  As I mentioned it would be more for privacy from those that DO have access to your apartment.  Not as a fortification against theft or attack.

Great feedback on my idea though everyone!!! To think, its only been posted for an hour!      

[Cale_Knight]

Do you bar your front door closed when you head to bed at night? Nah. For most, it's left unlocked. For some, it's the knob lock, and for even fewer is the deadbolt used.

Hell yes I deadbolt my door. Where the heck do you live that most people leave their doors unlocked when they sleep?

Seriously, man. Where is this magical fairyland, cause I'd like to live there.

[FantasyWriter]

Do you bar your front door closed when you head to bed at night? Nah. For most, it's left unlocked. For some, it's the knob lock, and for even fewer is the deadbolt used.

Hell yes I deadbolt my door. Where the heck do you live that most people leave their doors unlocked when they sleep?

Seriously, man. Where is this magical fairyland, cause I'd like to live there.

Sadly, especially since this is my thread, I seldom lock my doors at night. North Mississippi, where you can trust the next guy 80% of the time.

[Kyviantre]

Over here, we all lock our doors, windows, any hole larger than a mouse could barely fit through.  Probably not that comprehensive in Zalanthas, but you'd sure as heck want to barricade yourself in with all the crime rate there is in most cities there!

[Maso]

We don't lock our doors, because we live on a farm in the middle of nowhere, and because my door doesn't look. We have guard dogs, movement sensitive lights and theres eight of us in the house.

I think most people in the UK lock their doors though. And deadbolt them always. In fact, I don't think your house is covered for house insurance unless you use a deadbolt on the front and back door.

[Malken]

Seriously, man. Where is this magical fairyland, cause I'd like to live there.

It's called Japan.

But I don't like that idea.. If you can bar the door from the inside and I'm there, why can't I just remove the bar myself afterward? Why only the 'owner' can bar it?

Also, it's not because someone logs out in his apartment for three RL days that it means that he's been locked in his apartment, barred from the inside, for three weeks..

But I also think that there should be a HUGE penalty for someone trying to sneak into my apartment while I'm there.. Realistically, when you open the door to your apartment in real life, do you really think that someone could follow you in from behind without you noticing before you shut and lock the door once more?

[Angela Christine]

Do you bar your front door closed when you head to bed at night? Nah. For most, it's left unlocked. For some, it's the knob lock, and for even fewer is the deadbolt used.

Uhh... I don't know where YOU live, but... around here, my door's deadbolted, knob-locked, and chained unless I'm going through it or letting someone in.

Ditto.  Not only do I make sure the door is bolted before bed, I usually keep it bolted all day long.  I lock the door every time I close the door, the only time the door is unlocked is when the door is physically open.  Back ups like chains, security bars, etc., might not get used every time I close the door, but if I have them I'm certainly going to put them on before I go to sleep or get in the shower.



However, if "locked room mysteries" have taught me anything, it is that it is possible to open a barred door from outside, and even possible to use hooks, strings and various tools to bar a door from the outside.  Difficult, but possible.  On the other hand, if you slide a blade or other object between the door and the jam to try and knock the bar out of its bracket, there is a very good chance that you are going to make some noise.  If you succeed in knocking the bar loose then the bar is probably going to fall to the ground with a clatter.  Not as noisy as breaking the door down, but noisier than picking a lock.

It also depends on what kind of bar and bracket setup you are using, some would be easier to manipulate from outside.

Lift type bar.

  Slide type bar.  


Apartments are not vaults.  It should not be utterly impossible to get into an apartment.  All the locks and bars in the world can't stop a determined professional.  The best you can hope for is that your lock discourages amateurs and opportunists, and slows down others.  If people have an unlimited amount of time and are willing to make noise, they should be able to get through any non-magickal door.  If the door is a major hardpoint, then at some point they should be able to get a mining pick and go through the damned wall.  



Right now, windows are not usually exits.  In most cases you can't even look through a window (annoying).  Windows should be exits, and they should have a size.  There are small exits already in game that tell you things like "you'd need to be a tiny halfling to wiggle through there" and other variations on the theme that your ass is too fat to get through the exit.   :twisted:  Most windows would be too small for an adult from a common race to squeeze through.  Larger windows would come with shutters that would be functionally identical to doors.  Actually, in any location prone to inclement weather, all windows should probably come with shutters.  

Code Select Expand

The traitorous, brown haired human enters from the west.

You say, in sirihish:
    "Been scraping a little of my profit off the top, eh?"

The traitorous, brown haired man lowers his head, looking at his feet.

>bar door
You bar the door preventing anyone from entering or leaving it.

>draw mace
You brandish your obsidian-headed mace.

>sap traitorous
You sap him on the head, and he crumples to the ground.

>grin
You grin.

Yeah, I don't think that would work.  You can set up a system where the bar is further secured by a key lock, but a standard bar is just a bar, anyone inside the room can open it as easily as anyone else.  For trapping people in the room with you all you need is a standard lock, not a fancy bar.

[FantasyWriter]

Yeah, I don't think that would work.  You can set up a system where the bar is further secured by a key lock, but a standard bar is just a bar, anyone inside the room can open it as easily as anyone else.  For trapping people in the room with you all you need is a standard lock, not a fancy bar.

But what I was trying to do waas lock out/in people that DO have a key to said door.  Anyone have any other/different/better ideas for this problem?

[Only He Stands There]

Yeah, I don't think that would work.  You can set up a system where the bar is further secured by a key lock, but a standard bar is just a bar, anyone inside the room can open it as easily as anyone else.  For trapping people in the room with you all you need is a standard lock, not a fancy bar.

But what I was trying to do waas lock out/in people that DO have a key to said door.  Anyone have any other/different/better ideas for this problem?

"guard <direction>"?

[Maso]

I see what you mean by this. It does work because the door is locked. The bar prevents anyone else from coming *in* to the rescue. However, if they had unlocked the door, the unfortunate could then make an attempt to open the bar.

[spawnloser]

As has been said, barring a door is realistic if you are there.  However, barring a door from the inside to lock someone else in so that you can have their undivided attention?  Um, they're on the inside too and can get that bar off just as easily as you can.  It is NOT realistic to have ONLY the primary renter able to bar/unbar the door.  Putting a delay so that after you bar or unbar, you can't do the other for some amount of time is also unrealistic, unless that time was a second or so.

If you are inside and want to keep someone else inside, as OHST said, use your handy-dandy 'guard' skill.  If you are not skilled at guarding an exit, you should not be able to prevent someone else from getting out.

[FantasyWriter]

:? Hmmm.....

[Malken]

Anyone ever seen a ranger branch guard, just out of curiosity?  My line of thinking encourages me to believe that it would eventually come from rescue if at all... hmm... :?

Guard is not a skill you branch, it's a way of life.

[spawnloser]

Nice aside, FantasyWriter, but conjecture like that usually receives little affirmation.  We do not discuss who branches what and from which skill the new skill branches from.

[Yokunama]

-How is your roommate going to get into the room, if logged while the door is barred up?

-If you got killed in your room, how is the person going to undo the barred door if the only person that can do it is the owner?

-If you logged for a long period of time and your rent ran out, how is the new tenant going to get access into the room?

[FantasyWriter]

-How is your roommate going to get into the room, if logged while the door is barred up?

-If you got killed in your room, how is the person going to undo the barred door if the only person that can do it is the owner?

-If you logged for a long period of time and your rent ran out, how is the new tenant going to get access into the room?

As they say on Mythbusters: this one is DEFINATELY busted...

[psionic fungus]

-How is your roommate going to get into the room, if logged while the door is barred up?

-If you got killed in your room, how is the person going to undo the barred door if the only person that can do it is the owner?

-If you logged for a long period of time and your rent ran out, how is the new tenant going to get access into the room?

1) I guess you're an asshole, and they should find a better roommate? You could always leave your cloaks on the bed (or a similar device) when you log out, so you know if it's "safe" to bar the door. In situations with large multi-room structures being rented (or owned) it seems ideal to be able to bar bedroom doors as well... Just using logic and all.

2) I don't know where people got this absurd idea, but it is absurd.  Anyone -inside- a room could easily unbar a door... Anyone -outside- would have a more difficult time.

3) I guess the landlord would have to hire a security professional and get the door unbarred. Easily handled by VNPC and/or scripts (preferably scripts).

Whoa... BUSTED, indeed.

[Yokunama]

-If you got killed in your room, how is the person going to undo the barred door if the only person that can do it is the owner?

2) I don't know where people got this absurd idea, but it is absurd.  Anyone -inside- a room could easily unbar a door... Anyone -outside- would have a more difficult time.

The original poster stated that the owner of the room could only bar the door. If they can bar the door, they mostlikely going to be the only people able to unbar it.

[Maso]

I really think anyone should be able to bar the door. ANYONE from the inside. Not only the tenants, but visitors too, welcome or unwelcome.

It makes no sense any other way.

[Folker]

Mmm, wouldnt it be possible to bar up the door and then leave via magical means ? This way your thingies are completely protected from theft, while you can go do your things freely.

[FantasyWriter]

Ok.  Let me start over then, since the first idea was busted.  I will present my problem rather than my idea for the solution and see what you guys can come up with:

I believe the Person-who-foots-the-bill for an apartment should have the ability to restrict access to said apartment WHEN and ONLY WHEN he is logged in and present in the room.

Afore mentioned flunkies and friends can still ">knock door e", no? And he can let them in when he has finished whatever private matters he had to attend to.

Your suggestions, fellow Arm'ers?

Thanks,
FantasyWriter

[psionic fungus]

The ability to bar the door from inside would enable this quite easily.  All you have to do is make sure everyone else leaves the room, then bar the door. Now, if they want to come in, you have to let them.  It doesn't matter if you're the 'leader' or not, though as the leader you should probably be able to order people out of the room if you desire it for a private encounter... There is still that awkward situation of someone logging into the game in the 'private' room... But... I suggest getting a bigger place and your own damn room, if it's that important.

[GoodwinX]

FantasyWriter,

I think your proposal is against the very spirit of this game. It seems you want an inanimate object (a door) to somehow know who is or is not the coded leader of an apartment. The only way your idea could be implemented realistically is by putting a second lock on every single door that only the leader gets the key to when they pass the guard on the way in. However, I imagine locks are expensive enough that no normal apartment will ever be blessed with two.

Furthermore, I dislike any addition that makes it easier to lure people into apartments for the purposes of killing them and I hope that Arm II takes into account the fact that doors are not soundproof, people scream bloody murder when they're being murdered, guards are there for a reason, and corpses don't magically go poof if you leave them there long enough.

I do, however, like the idea of barring a door from the inside so long as anyone can do/undo it and that there is a (presumably very loud) way for someone as big as a half-giant to break down the door even if it's barred.

[Maso]

It just doesn't make sense that only the leader can do that...realistically (barring the door I mean).

However, perhaps some apartments have two looks? A normal lock and a badass one. The owner gets both keys. Everyone else just gets one?

[Seeker]

Why not just go down the hall and tell the landlord that no one else is permitted in your digs?  As the primary renter, you can add/remove roomies to your little heart's content, whenever it tickles you to do so.


Seeker

[BuNutzCola]

Lived in Lahaina, Hawaii most of my life, then Los Angeles and Santa Ana, California during college, and now Bethpage, Tennessee.

Not really ever locked up my house too often when I'm home. Never been burgled.

Might just be lucky I guess.

Anyways I was just trying to give feedback, overall liked the idea.

[psionic fungus]

I've had a very different experience.  I -have- been burglarized, and my house was definitely locked at the time.  I've had people try to force entry while I was at home, sleeping in my room at the back.  Worst of all, I've had a surprising number of random strangers simply walk into my house and ask me for drugs.  As you might imagine, I keep my doors locked and bolted as often as possible.

[Salt Merchant]

It might not be legal to bar doors in certain jurisdictions. Some places have laws against fortifying your house. I think it's to prevent gangs and cults from making stands against the police.

[FantasyWriter]

 I am one who tries to believe it the greater good of man-kind, somehow it gets harder with each passing day. I had never heard that about banned fortification before...very interesting though.  Living in the South, I have been in some people's houses, that you would fair better trying to break into a military base, and it is a lot more likely that you would live through robbing the military base.  Down here, you enter someone's house, you get shot, and there is not a thing the cops can or will do against the owner.


I had a deputy tell me once that if you ever kill someone in your yard, drag them in the house before we get there.... there was not a trace of a smile on his face or jest in his voice.  :twisted:

[Twisted Minstrel]

How's about these ideas?

Barring doors: One of the simplest forms of locking doors in cheap apartments on Zalanthas, depending on the type of bar, can be either a cakewalk, or a disaster for the would-be burglar.

Horizontal lift bar: These bars are the easiest types of security to bypass, at least for a burglar worth his weight in lockpicks. Just about any sturdy material thin enough to slip through the doorway and lift it from the other side will suffice to bypass this.

Horizontal slide bar: These bars, which operate by sliding a piece long piece of wood, or stone through small loops of rope or wood, which are attached to the door, and to the wall. These can be a little tricky and time-consuming. Using a knife, or a blade of some sort, a burglar must carve out a little bit of wood from the barred door, or the wall the door is set into. Using the very point of said knife, the burglar must dig it in to the wooden bar (after finding where on the door it's located of course) and slowly inch it to the side. This takes up alot of time, and almost always leaves an indication that the door has been broken into. Though considering that the bar may be made of a brittle material like obsidian, it would relatively easy to kick in, risking detection from the commotion caused therein.

The "Holy shit this is going to be a tough job", doorknob to floor bar: Used only by those desperate and in hiding, or for the excessively paranoid, is the, "Holy shit this is going to be a tough job" doorknob to floor bar". Here's how this tough security device works. A specialized bar, or perhaps even a chair in certain situations are leaned up against the door, just under the doorknob (considering your door even has a doorknob), at an angle so that any inward force pushed on the door is redirected to the floor, making it -very difficult- to open. Those more skilled in the ways of the burglar won't have too terribly much trouble with this though. It takes a pretty good amount of time, depending on your method. Pretty much the only way to get through this is to tamper with the doorknob, or hinges of it. Displacing the hinges of the door, gaining entry to the room, and putting the hinges back where they belong, while leaving the door or bar propped in the right position is a method for expert burglars. It requires the most skill, and a pretty good bit of time, and is pretty much only used when there needs to be no evidence of a break-in. Specialized hinges on those who can afford them though, foil this attempt by requiring hinge-breakage to displace them. The doorknob is another good method for dealing with this. It's simple, remove the doorknob. This is done simply by using one's blade to dig around the doorknob, widening the hole enough so that it can be pried out. Though nothing makes a robbery more obvious than a pried-out doorknob. And the scratching noise of one carving away at a door can alert others nearby. The third, least favorable method, is the boot.

Bars, used in combination with locks can make things pretty difficult for a burglar, but one with enough skill can get through both in a relatively short amount of time.

[Twisted Minstrel]

Come to think of it.... Realistically, how would be able to make a lock without springs or reliable pins? Those kinds of things require metal. It's a wonder locks around Zalanthas don't keep jamming up on their owners.

[bilic]

Come to think of it.... Realistically, how would be able to make a lock without springs or reliable pins? Those kinds of things require metal. It's a wonder locks around Zalanthas don't keep jamming up on their owners.

I'm not sure if this how it works in game, but you could make a lock like this: A horizontal row of stone pins that keeps the door shut. These pins have a row of teeth along the lower edge, inside the lock. Those teeth mesh with a few gears of differing thickness that have holes in the center for a key. Between the gears are unmoveable blocks, also of differing thickness. A key that fits the lock would have to have a peg in the right place and size to turn every gear and a notch for every block in the right place and size so it can turn. To confuse lockpickers, there could be gears with pins below it would reset the upper pins.

Please let me know if that doesn't make sense.

[Cale_Knight]

Yeah, I think you could do it, the lock mechanisms would just have to be VERY thick and sturdy (that's what she said).

The locks are probably more realistic than some of the more delicate keys in game.

[brytta.leofa]

Living in the South ... you enter someone's house, you get shot, and there is not a thing the cops can or will do against the owner. ... I had a deputy tell me once that if you ever kill someone in your yard, drag them in the house before we get there....

For goodness' sake, don't take that last literally, okay?  The first part is often, but not always, true; but dragging dead people into your house will probably land you in prison for homicide and may cause God to become angry with you.  :x

Laws vary widely, but some states in the US do provide an automatic presumption of innocence for the trespassed resident.  (A person who breaks into your house when he knows you're there is typically not a safe person.)

Re-railing: in Zalanthas, 'twould be interesting if door-bars were an item that is generally illegal--Think, citizen! What if the Highlord needed to break down your door?--but fairly widely available.

[Xio]

I don't really see how barring your door would be illegal in general. Maybe if you were a criminal and you bar the door it can make things worse for you when/if you're caught. I could see frowned upon in certain areas and maybe mocked in other areas because of the 'primitiveness' of it as opposed to other more 'civilized and elegant' ways of going about protecting your goods.

[LauraMars]

Wooden locks were made and used in ancient times.  Here are some links.

http://www.usgennet.org/usa/topic/preservation/science/inventions/chpt8.htm
http://www.nokey.com/ankeymus.html
http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/locks/locks.htm (this one has more metal locks than wooden ones, but it's still interesting)

And I found a craftsman who makes functioning wooden locks today.

http://www.geocities.com/wwl4mj/

[Twisted Minstrel]

OoooOooohh.... Well, I've learned something new.  

But anywho, back to the main point of this thread. Barring doors, yea, or nay?

I'm personally for 'em. Makes burglarizing into a bit of a complex artform if ya ask me.

[LauraMars]

Barring doors, yea, or nay?

Yea.

[Kyviantre]

Second Yea  

[FantasyWriter]

I am definitely PRO-door-barring

[psionic fungus]

As you can probably tell from what I said before, I'm for it.

[bilic]

doubleplus extra pro.

[Qzzrbl]

Looking back on this.... Qzzrbl <3's this idea.