Backstab RP

[Bestatte]

But what if they're not sparring? What about arena games, for instance? I recall an incident when a character with the assassin skills was pitted against a warrior-class character.

Obviously an assassin will -not- be as good at "warrior type skills" as a warrior is, and if the assassin intends to live through the gladiator ordeal, he's gonna have to revert to what he knows.

So in such a case, wouldn't it make sense for an assassin-skilled character to USE whatever skill he has to survive, even in an arena match where people are watching and judging him? Would the nobles boo and hiss and claim the assassin had no sense of honor, or would they commend the assassin's clever tactics in getting that nasty gorey thrust into the throat or kidney or whatever?

[John]

So in such a case, wouldn't it make sense for an assassin-skilled character to USE whatever skill he has to survive, even in an arena match where people are watching and judging him?

IMO of course. But he also won't be able to use the hide skill IMO because AFAIK there isn't anywhere to hide in the arena, it's a nice wide open floor. But if they emote out somehow getting past the person's defence and being able to backstab them, sure, why not? Just because we know OOCly that backstab is for assassins only, why would it make a lick of difference ICly to someone who decapitated someone's head within 1 minute of the fight?

Would the nobles boo and hiss and claim the assassin had no sense of honor, or would they commend the assassin's clever tactics in getting that nasty gorey thrust into the throat or kidney or whatever?

All depends on the particular noble. IMO the assassin wouldn't automatically get boo'd for using backstab. Also depends if it was a non-lethal match. But if ANYONE finishes a gladitorial match within 1 minute IMO people aren't going to be happy. People go to the arena for a show. It's like a boxing match. If it were to be over in 10 punches there would be an uproar (would an uproar happen in the arena? I don't know. I think some would admire the efficiency, I think some would feel cheated of a fun show).

[X]

Tlaloc, thank you for your input. Having never used the skill training or actual combat, I was not aware if the damage was reduced significantly or not. I can see the point of not using it in sparring. But just needed it clarified. Thank you for your input. Sorry to harp on an old topic. Figured I would ask for the clarification.

[Tlaloc]

But what if they're not sparring? What about arena games, for instance?

Like I said above: "Backstabbing" is used for killing people very, very efficiently. Like the helpfile says,  you don't have to be hidden to do it, nor does it nessecarially constitute a "strike to the back". If you are intending to kill (or seriously injure) someone, by all means, use backstab.

Doing so, in a fair fight, might get you labled as a dirty fighter, but then, Zalanthas is harsh, and "Fair Fight" isn't really a term thats used alot in the world (or shouldn't be, heh). I'll tell you this, though: if I ever got tossed into an arena, you can sure as hell bet I'd forget about any possible Boos from the crowd, and try my hardest to kill whatever was comming after me, asafp.

Maybe your character beleives in "justice", or "fairness". Maybe they just beleive in survival of the fittest. In any case, usage of Backstab should be determined by the character...and the IC results (boos, excecutions, cheers), would likely also be resultant by the characters in the world around you.

The end result is: Backstab is a skill like any other, with appropriate and inapropriate times to use it. For the same reason its not IC to go around killing all the merchants in the Bazaar because you can; for the same reason its not IC to go attacking rats or bumbs in the Rinth; for the same reason its not IC to wake, cast, cast, cast, sleep, repeat; for the same reason its not IC to steal someone's pants in the Gaj; for the same reason its not IC to Free the Downtrodden Couches from the Barrel, or swipe an entire bed out of a house; its not IC for you to backstab your sparring partner.

[Delirium]

*adds, in a very small voice*

Unless you really ARE trying to kill your sparring partner, and are willing to deal with the IC ramifications that could come from this.

*flee self*

[halfbreed]

Some very well thought arguments in here.

If Tlalloc or any other imm is still reading, however, I have a follow-up question then (my apologies if I missed the answer already....  I thought I had read this whole thread a few times over).

How would an assassin ever get proficient then at their trade?  Code-wise I mean?  Backstabbing rats and sparring partners is obviously out.  Backstabbing creatures in the wild?  Perhaps a bit more iffy... probably makes sense, yet it doesn't really represent how a person gets good at landing critical strikes on a humanoid.  Plus, some folks might really want to play an assassin that doesn't venture outdoors much.

You could, of course, try to handle it IC, get killing contracts... convince people to give you legit assassination assignments.  But that would be nigh impossible if your skill is very poor, you have no experience, and no reputation.  Plus, even if you do manage to get some such contracts and are able to "work" on your trade... you'll end up dead since you'll almost inevitably fail in your task, and have made some very dangerous enemies.

[5 day lifespan]

Just so I get this straight then, the only way to be a good assassin is to be a homocidal maniac, jump out of the shadows, stab a stranger and run?  Because if no one can train me (I THINK "teach" only takes you so far), then I can only get better by really using the ability and really killing perfect strangers for no other reason than to get better at it.  This doesnt sit well with me.  Not because I dont want to kill poor schmoes in the streets, quite the contrary, they arent me and therefore deserve to die (from my character's standpoint), but because theres no MONEY in killing poor schmoes on the street!  Sure I can gank them and take their gear, but frell me!  The militia or whoever is in charge is going to be looking for this psychopath toot sweet.
 When you fight normally in sparring, youre trying to find openings in your opponant and try to exploit them, youre trying to win, because when you need to fight someone for real, youll need to learn how to kill them quickly.  When people spar, they beat the ever loving crap out of each other, but with usually non-lethal weapons.  Why wouldnt BSing be the same?  Sure, its gonna hurt, kidney punches do, getting your vertabrae hit does, but when you do martial arts training and they show you lethal strikes, you learn how to really strike those spots, but you do it at less than full power or hit the air in front of that spot.  Now, if you are going to train BS, youd do the same, you wouldnt REALLY be trying to kill someone during training, unless you hated the person.  But theres no code to support lighter strikes; except for sparring weapons.  To me, using sparring weapons means youre pulling your punches, but still getting your hits in.  Couldnt the BS damage for training weapons be lessoned?  And if not, if the Imms hate the idea of getting good at BS (Youre REALLY trying to kill them, even in training.  And I have a feeling BSing Mobs is frowned upon too) why not just nix the class?  I personally LIKE assassins.  They kick ass in their own, sneaky quick-like-ninja sort of way.  But if there is apparently no good IC way to train up their most essential skill... ::makes a motion of tossing "Assassin" code out the window::
 I have plenty of good ideas that will let me use BS in the training hall, or practice it on a willing victim.  But as I said, I feel that those uses would be, in the emote and IC sense, a lighter type hit.  If the Imms disagree, well, no Karma for me, I reckon.  But I made an Assassin, and by God, an Assassin its going to be.  Even if I do have to be a psychopath.  But Ill fight twinking out every step of the way, because I love emoting being sneaky, and I love emoting sliding my daggers between ribs, and I will love getting jobs, when Im good enough.  But for now, I have to continue to train, just like any warrior, just like any crafter, using any means I can.  Not because the skills are the only thing, but they are an important thing.  This isnt a MUSH, this is a MUD.  Skills still have to be developed.
 Though, if instead the point of the post was that you cant SPAR and BS, then Id be far more inclined to agree, there are still IC ways to practice BS with willing targets with training weapons.  But if the stance is that even the use of training weapons is trying to kill someone, then homocidal maniacs will be the only assassins who can BS well, and it wont matter, because here come the Templars.

[Socko]

Just so I get this straight then, the only way to be a good assassin is to be a homocidal maniac, jump out of the shadows, stab a stranger and run?  Because if no one can train me (I THINK "teach" only takes you so far), then I can only get better by really using the ability and really killing perfect strangers for no other reason than to get better at it.  This doesnt sit well with me.  ...  I personally LIKE assassins.  They kick ass in their own, sneaky quick-like-ninja sort of way.  But if there is apparently no good IC way to train up their most essential skill... ::makes a motion of tossing "Assassin" code out the window::
 ... But I made an Assassin, and by God, an Assassin its going to be.  Even if I do have to be a psychopath.  But Ill fight twinking out every step of the way, because I love emoting being sneaky, and I love emoting sliding my daggers between ribs, and I will love getting jobs, when Im good enough.

Use your head, and your imagination; stretch it a little. If you already know some subterfuge and have some limited stealth capabilites, you needn't practice on complete strangers and go serial killer.

Take jobs, and slowly but surely.. you'll get better at it. Use what you have for the answer to your questions. It's all you'll really have, and -should- have in the long run.

That's the beauty of an assassin.

[Uberskaapie]

backstab can be used in mid-fight, if I remember correctly. It makes sense to me that you could do this when sparring. while it wouldn't really be effective damage wise, you can roleplay it as aiming for a specific break in the opponents defense. This will ICly explain how you can tell the most vulnerable spots of the victim and OOCly while it may not be _the_ best way to up your skill, you are going to be able to do it in the end.
  I know it's an old thread, but any thoughts on this?

[Bestatte]

If I were someone looking to hire an assassin, you can bet I wouldn't pay for someone with little skill. An assassin -with the assassin class of skills- will not be as good as a warrior -using warrior-type skills.-

If I were to hire someone whose primary function was to sneak around and kill people with critical strikes, I'd want to know my 'sids were going to someone accomplished, and not some novice with a dagger. Hell, I'd do that myself if that was the case, and I don't even have the backstab skill. But I don't need to pay someone to be BAD at something.

So from that end of things, how would a potential employer justify hiring someone with little or no training, who is considered a twink if he practices this specialized skill on rats, or in a sparring match?

Someone with that little skill isn't gonna live more than a few days outside town to practice, so that isn't a very realistic option.

Killing NPCs is *usually* considered twinkish..

Killing newbies is *usually* considered twinkish.

And so, what avenue does the assassin PC who wants to actually become good at using assasin-based skills take, so that he can be good enough that an employer would feel he was worth hiring in the first place?

[Clegane]

Personally, I think the way the code plays out is very open to interpretation. While Tlaloc's interp is indeed a valid one, it seems a rather constricted stance to take regarding something as ambiguous as mud code.  I tend to favor a more broad interp of the code. IN this specific instance, I tend to view Backstabbing as a 'surprise strike' than a lethal deathblow. Yes, lethal hitting is part of backstabbing, but so is developing a ruse to catch an opponent off-guard. And so is learning to bypass an opponant's natural defenses. I believe these tactics to be perfectly acceptable in sparring. A bit dirty, perhaps, but still valid.

The last assassin I ran (some 18 months ago now) used a variety of tactics when using BS during sparring. Most commonly, I would feign dropping my weapon and stoop to pick it up. Or feign tripping on the mat (or field, whichever). When the opponant closes in t help me up, -bam-, there comes the backstab. I interp the damage done as being reflective of the opponant being unwary rather than getting gored in the kidneys.

Experience has shown, however, that in-clan backstab training is highly dependant on the clan Imm. The clan Imm for my last assassin encouraged such techniques, as did my comrades IC. They understood the importance of my character perfecting that tactic and didn't begrudge me too deeply when I utilized it.

In all, its solely a matter of how the individual parties (and Imm) want to interpret the action. If the decision were up to me, I would not bear any ill will to someone who sparred backstab PROVIDED that they roleplayed the situation as a surprise strike, rather than a critical injury.

As aforementioned, I generally tend to favor a broader interpretation of the code. The more creative someone is willing to get to RP within the code, the more I tend ot enjoy the game. But obviously, that's just one man's opinion.

[creeper386]

Well, I understand my point, and the opposite point, and if I was going to do it, I'd probably still do it and expect any IC consequences, but I'd also expect at least alittle attention to MY RP instead of one coded echoe, and the case is solved.

What I've been trying to say is it shouldn't be used ALL the time in sparring, and it would be used very carefully, and once you get even slightly skilled your probably not going to be using it in combat. And if there are any accidents... Well thats to be taking ICally, but I don't think you should interpet the code and FORCE things onto the player or character that uses them. Just because they used backstab I don't think you can assume, ICily or OOCily, that they were trying to kill that person. Otherwise you can't say anything more about using kill or hit in sparring or any other time. CODEDly, I'm guessing backstabbing with training weapons doesn't really reduce the damage any, but using those weapons in a sparring ring is what denotes sparring normally, and that they ARE pulling their blows. So saying someone is trying to kill someone when they are ICily taking the same precautions and such in sparring but practicing different skills? I think thats being really forceful and tosses RP out the window on note of the code.

I've ran an assassin that was more a warrior using his fighting skills as well as that little bit of underhanded tactics and such like that. I've also heard of people having assassins that were more hunters, and such, only they relied of different tactics the most other hunters, using alot more ambush and such. Just these two concepts, along with normal, assassin out to kill everything, shows a big difference in different ways you would USE backstab, and it won't always be trying to kill. A underhanded warrior might use it to help disable an opponent, so his skill looks that much better. A hunter might use it to ambush a small prey, leave it wounded as bate for a large thing, basically disabling it so it has less chance to get away from the large thing when it comes in. Heck, even you normal assassin may not want to kill someone when using backstab. Just severally injure them, alot of assassins are screwed up mentally, could be the same on Armageddon, and well want to toy with their victims, doing who knows what.

Guess what I'm saying, and have been saying before, is that they RP is at least as important as the code, INCLUDING backstab. If there was an accident, it'd be taking IC but I would hope the players in hand take more into account then code. If more then one accident keeps happening something more severe then be careful and don't do that would probably be taken into place. Otherwords treated the same as a really skilled warrior thats beating the shit out of recruits. I do remember someone sometime back that was really bad ass with clubs. It got to the point that he wasn't allowed to use clubs in sparring because he killed one person and was constantly knocking others out.

Creeper, who well say in closing, "Combat is combat, IG and IRL, and it includes more then just the basic hit and kill."

[Angela Christine]

for the same reason its not IC to go attacking rats or bumbs in the Rinth;

Hey, I resent that!  I think it's fine to kill rats in the rinth, as long as you eat them.  What else is there to eat in the rinth?

I once had a grand plan to start a rat based merchandise buisness.  When you skin the little buggers you can get meat and tiny hides, so I thought, "Hey, there's a buisness oportunity there."  Who wouldn't want to be decked out in patchwork rat leather gear?  I figured I might have to submit some rat crafting items, but I was full of ideas.  I took the armormaker subclass to get tanning and leatherworking, and the assassin guild because they are fair fighters and have some skills that make getting around in the 'rinth easier.  Imagine my chagrin when I realized that neither assassins nor armorcrafters get the skin skill.  :x  Then I died, so at least I wasn't disappointed for a long time.  I suppose I could have gathered a pile of rat corpses and then hired the Byn to skin them for me.   :wink:

AC

[Shinigami]

Guess what I'm saying, and have been saying before, is that they RP is at least as important as the code, INCLUDING backstab."

I'm sorry creeper... but using a coded skill is... using a coded skill.  I can emote all I want that the wind is blowing that tree over, but if I cast 'wind saw' and cut down a tree with it... then guess what, I just used magick.  If I emote that I'm nailing you in the groin with my sparring club... then use 'backstab', guess what I just did... that's right, I tried to do a critical hit on you and take you out.

As an imm, if I saw someone using backstab and going for vital parts on their opponents, I'd be more than happy to apply 'realisim the 'realistic' goings-on... or have other trainers 'realistically' freak out in the room... and 'realistically' boot the person who thinks he can try to slit his sparring opponent's throat.

How, exactly, do you emote a backstab that isn't a backstab?  "emote carefully sneaks up behind you"?  Well, that's not an attack.  Simple point is that if you put in the command 'backstab' you're doing just that, same as if you put in 'cast' or 'steal' or any other command.  The effects are the same.

-Shinigami's views do not reflect staff as a whole.

[5 day lifespan]

As an imm, if I saw someone using backstab and going for vital parts on their opponents, I'd be more than happy to apply 'realisim the 'realistic' goings-on... or have other trainers 'realistically' freak out in the room... and 'realistically' boot the person who thinks he can try to slit his sparring opponent's throat.

How, exactly, do you emote a backstab that isn't a backstab?  "emote carefully sneaks up behind you"?  Well, that's not an attack.  Simple point is that if you put in the command 'backstab' you're doing just that, same as if you put in 'cast' or 'steal' or any other command.  The effects are the same.

So, as was asked previously by Uberskaapie, Bestatte and others, how do you non-twinkishly get better?  Or do we just take Clegane's good advice and RP it out, hoping there's an Imm on who doesnt freak out?

And to answer the emote of a BS question:

"The tall, wiry man lunges in, his dagger striking softly on your vitals.

The tall, wiry man lashes out with his dagger, the edge striking your throat.

You feel a hard poke as the tall, wiry man slips through your defenses"

I could go on, but you see my point.

[Impska]

5 Day, I think you missed Shinigami's point there with the emoting of 'a backstab that isn't a backstab' query.

If I interpreted it correctly, what Shinigami was looking for is this:

The stealthy assassin steps onto the sparring mat and dips a nod.

The buff warrior steps onto the sparring mat and salutes the stealthy assassin with his sparring sword.

The stealthy assassin starts forward and grunts loudly as his foot catches a discarded shield and he falls to a knee.

The stealthy assassin lifts his left hand to the warrior and says, in sirhish,
"Brother Runner...I've given my ankle a bum turn. Help a fella up, eh?"

The buff warrior grins oafishly and steps forward, tucking away his sword to offer a hand to the stealthy assassin.

The stealthy assassin braces himself against the mat and flips his dagger around, propelling his scant weight upward as he strikes, the blade seemingly coming from nowhere. (type BACKSTAB)

What you've witnessed there is an example of using the code to support 'the other half of backstab.' As Clegane mentioned in his previous post, backstab is half lethal striking and half surprise. As long as you emote properly, its up to the player to determine which element of 'sneak attacking' he's actually practicing. The increased damage (assuming the hit is successful) is indicative of him surprising his opponent and getting past his defenses.

[creeper386]

The problem when doing that is your being extremely restrictive on what that person is doing, or not even paying attention to what they are doing. I'd be like in a clan of magick users. You can only cast a certain way, any other way well be getting you in trouble. And because of OOC things discerning a certain spell or something, it's assumed your breaking clan laws when you cast one of those spells.

When someone uses backstab, and your saying they are AUTOMATICALLY trying to kill someone, HOW do you know that? You have no idea what they are trying to do. There are lots of ways that I can think of to use a backstab. Some of them would even be viable in a military organization, and none of them include sneaking up on someone and stabbing them in the back or trying to cut their throat with a dull, blunted dagger.

OOCily you know backstab can kill someone, OOCily you know using kill or hit can kill someone. OOCily you think if that person is in a sparring circle and using sparring weapons, practicing skills to KILL people, that they are ICally pulling their shots, but for some strange reason, the OOC notion that you can kill people with backstab easier means that you can't use any RP around backstab? And that any RP is going to be ignored and that that person is automatically assumed to be trying to kill the other.

Now, like I've said, theres probably going to be things taken ICally, if there are any accidents or if what your RPing is considered bad, and I'm truthful in my RP, if I'm backstabbing someone it's probably going to be a surprise, but it would probably also be after they are ready, and in the circle, if there are IC punishments for that yes. But the punishment shouldn't be soley based on the Backstab echo. It's too bloody close minded. And it means your putting much more basis on coded things then on RP.

And, as for your little magicker arguement. I'm not talking about casting a spell and RPing it as hacking down a tree or anything. I'm talking about RPing backstab as a surprise attack, most likely AIMed for critical spots but either not meant to land, or certainly pulling the strike. Of course, all sorts of rules would be put into place because you used backstab, that what you did was against rules... But this is all because of OOC things and they don't take into account of IC things.

Again, RP is at least as important. I'm not saying;
:lunges at ~runner, with a quick strike.
backstab runner

And expect it to be treated like any other strike. No I'm not, but any valid ideas I can think of well be picked apart and be said, oh, if they can do that with the first strike they can do it anytime in the fight. Which isn't true because if your launching the attack, in a sparring match you dealing with defending yourself at the same time and such, and still... What if this assassin WAS skill with weapons? but haven't trained backstab... If they CAN stand in a fight with another, and still land good blows. Still backstab would be treated with alot of OOC things effect IC judgements and the such.

And to respond to something someone said along time ago, that warriors would use surprise, speed and whatever to land blows... Which isn't true. Is most weapon fighting, it's about skill and thinking ahead. Setting things up. Your not ALWAYS thinking about landing every single strike, your thinking about setting up good solid strikes that aren't going to leave your defenses open.

For the most part, people are fair, and treat RP as at least important as code if not MORE importnat. It's one of the reasons that Armageddon is a great MUD. Well, it should fit for everything. There shouldn't be variances in this, or double standards or anything. It's one of the things that a RPI Mud is based on. Otherwise we'd be alot like any other desert-themed MUD. Making certain skills as only being interpeted one way, is close minded and really destructive to the sense of RP. And again, I'm not saying backstab should always be used, or that there should be no IC consequences for things, I'm saying it should be treated OOCily with the same respect for player interpetation as any other skill, within reasonable bounds, just like any other skill.

Creeper

[5 day lifespan]

True, but I guess I was still calling for a lowering of BS training damage without mentioning it.  Damn my sometimes ineffectual argument style, damn it!

[Dan]

I think it would be very cool if having mercy on either negated/lessened the damage of a backstab, as well as lowered the chance of gaining skill while attempting a backstab. I think its a reasonable solution that most people could be happy with. People will want to train their skills so that they can get better at them. How can an organization start up that wishes to teach its members these arts if they keep killing each other? I say just make it so that while having mercy on, you lessen the damage considerably, change the outgoing backstab message, and lessen the chance of gaining skill. Well?

Dan

[Guest]

Personally I think it all boils down to one thing, the only reason folks should have to get mad if someone uses backstab in a sparring match is because OOC they know a backstab was used. IC the echo could just be a really well-placed attack by their sparring partner just like any other type of attack made in a sparring match.
If someone decides to get angry about it because OOC they know that it was a backstab attempted or landed on them they are using OOC information and applying it IC, if that were the case, I would say it is poor roleplaying on their part for doing so. For all they would know IC it could just be a lucky, or unlucky shot. Realisticly noone always hits exactly their intended attack point. None gets mad when a warrior slashes them in the head or neck during a sparring match and those IMHO are vital areas.

If IC someone is the type of char who would get mad about something like a backstab attempt they should be just as angry about getting hit in the head or neck by what is IC the same thing.

I do agree that it should be rp'ed out when you try to do such an attack on someone.
-Just my opinion on a tough subject.

[Kurano]

This is a long thread, so I'm going to try to not make this longer.

When you try to backstab someone, your intent is to kill them or inflict serious injury. If you use the skill in sparring, expect a negative reaction. That's just how it is. It's not opinion, it's not conjecture. We must all live with this. If you want to play a "backstab" as a normal strike, then use a normal strike.

How then, do you get better at backstabbing? Use it when you have to. I don't know where people got the idea that assassins aren't tough without the skill, because even without backstab assassins are brutal. Backstab only adds to that. At high levels, backstab can be unfathomly deadly. So yeah - it's a hard skill to get good at. That's intentional.