Backstab RP

[The Lonely Hunter]

SKILL_BACKSTAB  (Combat)  


This skill is a generic term for 'critical strikes' against an opponent. The victim of a backstab is not necessarily 'stabbed in the back'-- the attack could be from any direction. If your character successfully backstabs someone, the target has been 'hit in a vital location,' and will be badly injured, the severity of the injury depending on your character's backstab skill level.

Now, we have had the talk about BS in sparring before and I beleave the general idea was its bad. I think it would be already since it is blunted weapons and it isnt actually a stab in the back (well, it could be) but I'll go along with this...

We have talked about bad backstab RP but I don't beleave I've ever seen anyone post about good backstab RP.

Opinions?

[Rindan]

A backstab is not a normal hit.  It is a critical strike, but it is not JUST a critical strike.  It is a surprise strike.  So, if you are talking to someone casually while slicing fruit, then suddenly stab them in the face, that would be a good backstab in my opinion.  If you open sparring by back stabbing, then I think that is down right silly.  Clearly your opponent is ready for you to strike.  If you could sneak past there defenses to deliver a 'critical strike' when they are ready for it, then you are a bad ass warrior, not an assassin, and you would make every hit a 'critical strike'.

As to how to 'train' backstab, simply use it in combat.  Group combat in particular offers the chance to do a good backstab.  Simply wait for others to start combat, then creep around and try and deliver that critical strike while the person you are fighting is busy with others.  In that case, I feel you actually can say that you are using surprise to deliver a blow you could not normally slip past your opponents defenses.

A backstab is a surprise attack.  As long as you keep that in mind, I don't think you can go wrong.  If you think you can attack a target, and you believe that the attack would be unexpected or unnoticed, then I think you are justified in backstabbing someone.

[jhunter]

I agree backstab is a surprise attack. But I can also see how it could be used in sparring if it was emoted correctly.
For example: Two chars walk into a ring to do some sparring, as they prepare the shifty, hooded guy kneels down to tighten up a piece of armor when he suddenly lunges with an attack on the buff, sweaty dude.

Or the opponents step into the ring to face off when the shifty, hooded guy looks over the buff, sweaty dude's shoulder, eyes widening. Then the shifty, hooded guy launches his attack IF the buff, sweaty dude looks back over his shoulder to see what's there.

I guess I'm saying I see both sides of the issue, if done correctly I can see how it could be used in sparring to practice it. But not actually playing it out, I don't think so.

Just throwing in my 'sids.
-jhunter

[jhunter]

Just a little something I wanted to add.

If someone were to do something like that when we were going to spar and my char fell for it and had a backstab attempted on him. I'd have to say good job playing it out and good practice for a possible real combat situation to use backstab. They don't have to be invisible for it to be a surprise, you can always distract them so you could get the jump on them.

[Kharun]

I see nothing at all OOCly wrong with using a critical strike during sparring, however, if your PC is going to do this, s/he had better be ready for the consequences, because there surely SHOULD be some IC!

If you and I are tag sparring in martial arts, then you suddenly lunge in at me and give me a finger strike to the throat, I am probably going to be extremely pissed off at you, and judging from whether the strike is successful or not, I will do my best to kick your fucking ass into some humiliating form of incapacitation.

Crit striking during sparring might be acceptable among some elements of society, but not among most.

[rnix]

I highly doubt he was speaking of walking into the byn sparring room and backstabbing one of the two people fighting!

[Anonymous]

I see nothing at all OOCly wrong with using a critical strike during sparring, however, if your PC is going to do this, s/he had better be ready for the consequences, because there surely SHOULD be some IC!

If you and I are tag sparring in martial arts, then you suddenly lunge in at me and give me a finger strike to the throat, I am probably going to be extremely pissed off at you, and judging from whether the strike is successful or not, I will do my best to kick your fucking ass into some humiliating form of incapacitation.

Crit striking during sparring might be acceptable among some elements of society, but not among most.

Well said.  There is nothing OOCly wrong with using a backstrike during sparring, but from an IC perspective your PC needs to have motivation for basically trying to kill the other one and you shouldn't be surprised if the other person gets pissed.

Or, to put it more simply.  Its not ok to practice backstab during sparring, but its perfectly fine to try a backstab during sparring if you are out to hurt or kill the person you are sparring with.

[jhunter]

Hrrrmm, seems to me if your using sparring weapons your OBVIOUSLY not trying to kill the other person IC or OOC. And if they get pissed about it seems like it's their own issue.

Just about as stupid as them getting pissed because they got hit during a sparring match.
IC, good training for both characters, teaches one to use tactics to get in a backstab, and teaches the other nod to be so damned gullible.

[Carnage]

Hrrrmm, seems to me if your using sparring weapons your OBVIOUSLY not trying to kill the other person IC or OOC. And if they get pissed about it seems like it's their own issue.

If someone deliberately tried to punch you in the crotch with boxing gloves on, because you were sparring, wouldn't you be pissed off?

Pretty much the same thing, except a backstab in sparring is more dangerous.

[Cenghiz]

"backstab" may mean a sneak attack, then can't be done while sparring. Your opponent will be concentrated and aware of the battle. But... as in D&D, you may try to explain by making a bluff hit;
>emote stands against ~<bla>, raising ~<bla>
>emote suddenly ducks right and swings ~<bla> into the ground, to the right of ~<bla>
>backstab bla
>say -snickering Look at my eyes, not at my weapons.

But it's still a little power-emote because you assume that your opponent loses your concentration but maybe he doesn't.

Your ideas? Any ideas to help the sneaky chars to have them learn faster and come kick our asses? I think a solution IC must be found. I never played a sneaky char yet but I believe "backstab" is important for them. There are not so much people attacking me from behind. I want more, so let's ease the things for them.

[jhunter]

I agree with Cenghiz, I just returned to Arm about 7 or 8 month ago RT and haven't had a single item stolen, and haven't seen or heard about much criminal activity other than one instance that I can recall in the entire time.

Back in '95,'96 I used to see or hear about some type of criminal activity every so often, seems almost like it's nonexistant now. Anyhow it feels like something is missing since I've been back and that seems to be one of the biggest things.

-jhunter

[creeper386]

From what I've understood from reading the threads, the main problem with backstab in sparring is you can't really control how much you do, and at some point you'll end up with an accident.

ICally, even if you are ready for someone doesn't mean you can't be surprised, or that they can't be quicker then you, and blah blah blah. Most the time ICally they are expecting a straight on attack, if you pull off a summersault and come up stabbing, or do something else that isn't the "common" thing, it could be quite surprising. ICally, I don't think people could be mad that you tried killing them, but could be mad at you for going out of the norm with a surprise attack. Now if you assassin is decent in combat and doesn't cause serious injury with the initial attack, and ended up still winning with weapon skills instead of the person fleeing after the first attack, I can see it being acceptable, and the first few times I could see you getting bitched out ICally for your surprised attacks if you were doing damage and that you have to spar normally.

And if you killed someone, it could be alittle underhanded but I don't think it could really be considered much different then a really good fighter not taking precautions and ending up killing a first time runner, but thats just how I see it.

The main problem though... Is your character is probably NOT trying to kill your sparring partner, but right from the begining you might have a chance of killing them, and you can't really control that, and like with the Tzai Byn it seems Tlaloc's main concern is IC accidents when there shouldn't be one. I think. Thats what I got from is posts, is having no control over it, as well as ICally the sneaky, surprised underhand technique may get you in abit of trouble since it's not the common thing to do.

Creeper who's done.

[Rindan]

I agree backstab is a surprise attack. But I can also see how it could be used in sparring if it was emoted correctly.
For example: Two chars walk into a ring to do some sparring, as they prepare the shifty, hooded guy kneels down to tighten up a piece of armor when he suddenly lunges with an attack on the buff, sweaty dude.

Or the opponents step into the ring to face off when the shifty, hooded guy looks over the buff, sweaty dude's shoulder, eyes widening. Then the shifty, hooded guy launches his attack IF the buff, sweaty dude looks back over his shoulder to see what's there.

I guess I'm saying I see both sides of the issue, if done correctly I can see how it could be used in sparring to practice it. But not actually playing it out, I don't think so.

Just throwing in my 'sids.
-jhunter

Jhunter, those are all perfectly valid ways of doing a backstab during a spar, but there are two major problems.  First, in any clan I have been in that is a military organization, you get the shit kicked out of you if you attack someone before they are ready.  If the other guy does not have his weapons up and is not ready for the attack, and you attack, that is like hitting someone while they are resting.  You start from two readied positions, and you don't start to fight until both sides are clearly ready.  Sure you can do it, but expect the rightful ass kicking that you are going to get from your sergeant.  If I had a character in charge of sparring and I saw that I would have them severely punished, or more likely, 'surprise' attack them and beat them into a nice slumber.

The other problem was even if that sort of silliness was allowed, it only works a couple of times then it is flat out OOC abuse.  Sure, you might be able to surprise someone once or twice, but after that people are just going to role their eyes when you yell "holy shit there is a mek behind you!".  That is like stealing the knife from the guy who emotes putting his hand on the hilt of his knife.  It is flat out twinkish and abusive.

There is, in my opinion, absolutely no place for backstab in a normal one on one spar.

[jhunter]

Rindan, not once did I say that if they were to roll their eyes like oh yeah the backstabber should do it anyway that is exactly the opposite of what I said.
To point out I did say IF they fall for it. :wink:

[creeper386]

Okay... I'm going to post here one more time, and same warning that this is a long post, although I tried to break the paragraphs up abit and make sure there isn't any major confusing problems but I could have missed something, bare with it please or skip it, doesn't matter. As I said before, backstab shouldn't be ICally treated any different besides if by the way it's accomplished is underhanded. In sparring you may not be trying to kill them, but you ARE training to LEARN how to kill. So things may get alittle blurred.

Now, it doesn't matter how READY someone is. They can be completely ready and you can surprise them. It doesn't have to be a cheesy, theres a rabid hamster behind you trick. It can be anything thats surprising, even flat out speed.

Last three years, during highschool, I was in high school wrestling. A few specific times stand out as being quite fitting for this. One match in paticular, I was up against someone who was from a team that was state wide known for one move, the head and arm(Can't think of a way to explain it either you have seen it and know or you don't.) Well, I completely expected it to be coming. Was told good, 40 times before the match. Watched team mate by team mate loose to the head and arm. I go out for my match knowing it's coming, about 30 seconds into the match it came. Right before it happened I knew it was going to happen. I could still be considered surprised because I couldn't do anything about it. He set it up, I knew he was setting it up, but when it came I ended up still having little other course but to try and get out of the new situation I was in. I was completely ready for it, the previous week we were practicing against this because we knew we were going to be wrestling them. I knew what to do if it happened, it was still a surprise and what I could do didn't help.

Basically, being ready for a fight, and having someone right in front of you, even KNOWING what they are going to do, doesn't mean you can't be surprised. Saying these types of things are the reason backstab shouldn't be used in sparring is rather cheesy, and rather untrue. I've had normal fighting characters that opened up combat with a slightly underhanded emote or this or that, or trying to surprise someone(When they are ready and have stepped into the ring) and it's treated no differently then any other starting move because the code is the same. ICally though, backstab is some how automatically known or assumed to be that your character is out to kill the person. Maybe if you used poison that can be assumed you were trying to kill them but just because you are practicing a surprise move doesn't mean you have it out for them. There are quite a few ICally circumstances, all of them quite fitting for any combative guild, that would constitute backstabbing. Most of them deal with practicing the motions of the surprise, getting through someones defenses, not necessarily hitting a vital spot, and certainly not trying to jab the little training dagger into the persons brain.

Sparring your learning how to kill. Your not trying to kill that person. Just like in any martial arts. If you are going full out, it's likely one or both people are going to be severally injured. Swinging an axe for someones head, sparring weapon or otherwise, is also a quite dangerous action, and probably more dangerous then a sparring dagger to the torso, and much more obvious that you are trying to do damage. The problem basically comes down to an OOC thing that you have no control. ICally I don't think it should be treated any differently, but it should also be emoted so it's known what you are doing. If what you do is considered breaking the rules then so be it. But it shouldn't be considered breaking the rules just because of a different echo. I'm not advocating backstabbing in sparring in orginizations and such, and like I've said I don't know how many times, I probably wouldn't feel comfortable doing it. Mostly because others well flip out, but also because I don't have no control over it. It can do alot of damage and probably even at the begining have a chance to be fatal, but it's an OOC concern, because ICally my characters would probably just be practicing it, maybe not even aiming for a vital spot but if they were wouldn't be putting strength or weight into the attack to be dangerous, but I don't have a control over major damage and possibly killing someone because the code doesn't pay attention to RP.

This is where a lessoning of skills would come in handy, or at least some how lessoning the damage you are doing or something. If a backstab landed in sparring for 3 HPs of damage it'd probably be treated alot different then say... 30. Then people think you shouldn't learn anything if you have it set lower, which isn't too true. Normally when first learning something, you go through it SLOWLY and steadily. You learn alot more that way. When you start getting better. Going slowly doesn't help much in getting better, but it still helps some in keeping at that same level and covering mistakes and problems you have. If this was instituted a reversed scale probably would be in handy, going slowly and being taught would start you off quickly then going all out, in the middle grounds going too slow or too fast well slow training down, and at the upper limits you have to be going all out to learn anything, but this all belongs in another thread.

Creeper[/quote]

[jhunter]

Well said Creeper, exactly how I feel about it ya just explained it better.

-jhunter

[Rindan]

The point you miss creeper is that there is a difference between being better then the guy you are fighting and surprising them, and sucking and surprising them.  The average assassin flat out sucks.  The average warrior can beat the piss out of them.  The assassins attack is completely dependent upon surprise.  Unlike wrestling that person, assassins don't even have the options of using the skill while engaged in combat.  If they could attack without complete surprise, then you could use the skill any time.  Further, it wouldn't be a skill, it would just be good weapons training.  A warrior who makes every hit land on your head is just flat out good.  He isn't using a magical ability that can only be used once every thirty seconds.  He might land that blow through skill, surprise, or whatever.

An assassin's backstab on the other hand is very specifically a surprise attack.  It flat out can not be used while engaged, and assassins generally suck at combat to begin with to emphasize that they can generally only beat a skilled warrior through complete surprise.  A sparring ring is not a place for complete surprise.  In fact, I would say that it is safe to say that the most important part of a backstab attack is NOT where the hit lands.  If you slice someone's throat or jam a dagger in their back, it will hurt like hell.  The hard part is landing such a hit in such a way that they can't react.  The hard part is sneaking close enough to someone to land such a blow.  Any idiot can stab another person.  It takes a master to stab someone such that they don't have time to flinch and make the hit less then successful.  This is what sets a warrior from an assassin apart.  

A warrior might be able to land powerful hits, block anything you throw at them, and in general land devastating attacks.  However, he just doesn't have the subtly to make an attack that won't give the victim enough time to keep the blow from being completely devastating.  The assassin's mastery is stealth first and foremost, and skill at arms second.  If an assassin had the ability to be so fast and so deadly that he could sneak a 'surprise' attack in as combat starts (IE open with a backstab), then there is no reason why he couldn't do the same in normal combat.  I mean, if you can stab someone in the eye while he is ready and waiting for you and there is some distance between you, why can't you do it in the heat of battle when he is even more distractions and has even less time to react?  If you want to beat the crap out of someone in the middle of a fight (like what happened when that person wrestled you) then be a warrior.  If you want to be able to creep up on someone and slit their throat, then be an assassin.  Simply put, opening sparring with a backstab is flat out poor RP.

[creeper386]

Most assassins should be able to land other hits in combat. But it wouldn't happen EVERYtime. Why? Because it takes time to set it up. Also, before combat starts. You surprise them, you get past there defense. At the time, YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THEIR OFFENSE. They aren't actively attacking you. So although they SHOULD be able to still land surprise attacks, saying that they don't isn't a reason. Being in combat while someone is actively coming at you, is alot different then having the room and time to surprise someone when they aren't attacking you. There is a big difference, BIG difference between the two.

And again, the attack has nothing to do with stealth. Stealth doesn't have anything to do with it. Thats what the whole wrestling thing was for. You could be telling someone, "I'm going to stab you in the throat, right now." Give them time for that to work into their system them to get ready and everything, and still land a surprise attack. It deals with speed, dexterity and oh my god, maybe abit of diversion whichever it is. You say this means they would be able to land this hit every time that way? No because it takes time to set it up. And it has no comparison with warriors fighting. For the most part most of fight for the most part fairly. I do beleive it mentions something along these lines in the help file for warriors. Zalanthan fair may be different from our fair, but it probably means they have some basic standards for the most part. It's about the skill in arms.

Rindan, as I've said, although I'm saying there should be nothing wrong with using a surprise attack, which is what backstab is, in sparring, I'm not advocating the use or using it myself in sparring. It's a concern of the code and players mostly OOCily founded response for it. If an assassin started out with a quick surprise attack and all it said was,

So and so stabs you viciously in the torso.

It would most likely be treated differently. Even if they emoted kicking up dirt and then attacking. Sure ICally that can still be wrong, but you don't have to use tricks or gimmicks to surprise someone. And saying it's bad RP isn't the way to go. The problem doesn't lay in the RP, because I'm sure you can't think of every possible way to emote out situations, I know I can think of quite a few ones that wouldn't be taken as a bad attack, and I know I can't nearly think of all the situations. The problem lies in other peoples somewhat OOC responses because they know OOCily that skill can kill people. ICally there isn't no backstab skill. Some people may take use of quick surprise attacks, but it's do to being quick, and knowing how to surprise someone, and the only reason why warriors are better at weapons is because they are more physically fit for that, or their training has put emphasize on weapons and left them little for anything else.


Creeper who's shutting up because he's already been repeated himself and this "I'm right, your wrong." "No I'm right, and your wrong." thing isn't cool. We agree that at this time it shouldn't be used. Can just leave it at that.

[X]

Ok... now I actually have to pay attention to these debates a bit. Looking at the help file, it says absolutely nothing about Backstab being a suprise attack.

SKILL_BACKSTAB (Combat)


This skill is a generic term for 'critical strikes' against an opponent. The victim of a backstab is not necessarily 'stabbed in the back'-- the attack could be from any direction. If your character successfully backstabs someone, the target has been 'hit in a vital location,' and will be badly injured, the severity of the injury depending on your character's backstab skill level.

Warriors are trained in how to use weapons, how to attack and defend with and against various weapons and fighting styles. Assassins are trained in "where" to hit. More so than warriors. This is reflected in the skills. Warriors (especially skilled) can land good solid blows, consistant blows as well. Assassins have to execute the backstab code, this has delay as you approach the target, leaving you open for attack. If the assassin gets the shot in, good for him; most likely he will get hit before he lands the shot.

Example:
Warrior is receiving training.
Trainer: Watch the shield. Keep your attack to his head, drawing your opponents shield high. Now, with your second hand send a blow low to his legs, he's blinded himself with his shield.
(He is showing him style of fighting and weapon use)

Assassin in training
Trainer: (pushing two fingers up under the trainee's breast bone) That is a good location, fills the lungs with blood, and is a quick thrust. With a twist of that blade you do alot of damage. Or get a thrust up under the arm, into the pit. Sever the artery and disable the arm.

I am not an advocate of backstab flee backstab flee. But I don't see why people assume that backstab is a suprise, or must be. It is a critical strike. Can you use it in training? Sure.. most people will probably be edgy about taking you on in the training room, but you are not better at arms, you just know where to hit them to make it hurt.

Any imm feedback on this would be greatly appreciated, I really would prefer not to upset anyone by using the skill as a critical attack and having others view it as being missused.

[Rindan]

But I don't see why people assume that backstab is a suprise, or must be. It is a critical strike. Can you use it in training? Sure.. most people will probably be edgy about taking you on in the training room, but you are not better at arms, you just know where to hit them to make it hurt.

I think the point you are missing is that the code is set up so that it is very clearly a surprise attack.  If it was just a magikal hit you could do without any sort of surpirse, you would be able to use it like kick.  You could make an attempt any time you wanted.  If it is 'just' a critical strike why on earth would the code prevent you from doing it during combat?  Why is it that you can't be in combat in order to preform it?  Sure, it is a critical strike, but it is a critical strike that is launched by surprise.  If you are sparring someone, they sure as shit are not going to be surprised unless you suddenly jab them in the throat while they are resting, in which case your sergeant should beat the living hell out of you.

[krelin]

Agreed with Rindan.  And why does the code say "You stealthily approach your target" or whatever...?

[Anonymous]

Rindan, I could think of two reasons. OOC: Game balance. Backstab at higher skills is a pretty devestating hit. If there were not restrictions on it, assassins would make a pretty nasty opponent. Worse than the dreaded kick spamming warriors. IC'ly: They are not trained as well as warriors in how to fight. This makes them very open when they first strike. They have one chance to set up the strike, should that fail, they are in a world of hurt at a warriors hands. I would say that during combat, it would be almost impossible for them to set up the strike while defending.

As to the message, that is a good question. If it is a critical strike as the documentation suggests, perhaps it is a hold out from some of the old code. That is one reason why I asked for an imm's input. To me, the conflict in messages is something that makes the backstab skill a bit of a grey area that I would like to see cleared up. Perhaps, if it is a hold out of old code, it could be changed. Again, that is why I would like clarification.

Thanks for your input, I'm not looking for an excuse to twink. I just really would like it clarified. *shrug* Good points to Rindan, I hadn't really thought about the opening strike only. It still makes sense, but I would like to see someone from staff make a judgement call. Before some would be assassin gets slapped down for twinking.

[Rindan]

Rindan, I could think of two reasons. OOC: Game balance. Backstab at higher skills is a pretty devestating hit. If there were not restrictions on it, assassins would make a pretty nasty opponent. Worse than the dreaded kick spamming warriors. IC'ly: They are not trained as well as warriors in how to fight. This makes them very open when they first strike. They have one chance to set up the strike, should that fail, they are in a world of hurt at a warriors hands. I would say that during combat, it would be almost impossible for them to set up the strike while defending.

I think the real reason why backstabbing is not allowed in combat is fairly clear.  It isn't a skillful strike that slips past your opponents defenses.  It is a surprise attack that lands in a critical spot.  

Starting off sparring takes two steps for the backstab to make sense.  First, you need to get past your opponents parry.  Second, you need to hit in a critical spot while your opponent is moving to attempt that.  So, not only is he going to parry, he is also going to twist his body whatever way he can to throw off your swing even more.

Launching a backstab as a surprise attacks is also two steps, but these steps are very different.  First, you need to line of for a strike without them spotting you.  Second, you need to land in a critical spot.  The difference is that your opponent is making no attempt to stop the attack.  He is simply sitting there while you line up and execute that perfect strike.  Clearly, these are two very different things.

When you are squaring off in a sparring circle, the other guy is ready, pure and simple.  If you attack, he is going to try and parry.  For all intensive purposes, once you are at ready in a sparring circle, you are fighting.  Code wise you are not, but ICly, you are circling with the other guy getting ready to strike.  He is alert and aware.  If you can't slip a normal attack that does normal damage in your opening strike, you sure as hell are not going to slip past a 'perfect' strike that does critical damage.

As far as imm responses, I believe that Thaloc (or perhaps it was another imm) said that he strongly disapproved of backstabbing during sparring.  In fact, if you search out the last backstabbing threads multiple imms responded.

[Tlaloc]

As the above poster stated, I think most of us have posted our feelings about it already, in various other threads. However, I guess I'll weigh in (again) on this, to help people realize some things. I think the most glaring difference is the following:

As opposed to standard, conventional, non-backstab combat, when you try to "Backstab" someone (or critically strike them, or whatever), you are trying to kill the ever-living crap out of someone RIGHT NOW. You are not pulling your shots. You are not aiming for a 'general area'. Rather, you are deliberately aiming to plunge your dagger as deeply as it can go directly into the victims eyesocket, jugular, kidney, etc.

There is no middle ground. With backstab, you are trying, as hard as you can, to inflict some serious trauma on a person, regardless of weather or not you have a sparring weapon in your hand. You could be using a spoon, and in theory your "backstab", if somehow successful, would inflict gross injury to a person.

Sparring is not the place to practice such a skill. The goal of a spar is not to Kill your opponent...its not even to beat them. The goal is to learn, and if you seriously injure your opponent, you've now taken not only your friend, but yourself out of the learning cycle. If you practice backstabbing in a fight, you are no longer learning how to fight, you're learning how to kill very quickly.

If I'm squared off with someone, no matter who, and we start sparring, I am going to take alot of personal offense when that other person starts out by trying to visciously jam thier knife into my groin, or strike out without warning (because thats what you're doing) and try to stick it in my eye, or under my jaw.

The best assassins do not fight, or fight very little. They are set up to -avoid- fights. The whole goal of backstabbing, is to hurt someone so much that it kills them before a fight starts, or makes the resulting fight very, very, very, short.

By all means, if you feel the need to try to kill your sparring partner, then please feel free to practice backstab on them. However, be prepared to pay the price (both IC and OOC) for attempting to kill someone (most likely a clanmate), because backstabbing, no matter what, is just that. Attempted murder.

[crymerci]

If I'm squared off with someone, no matter who, and we start sparring, I am going to take alot of personal offense when that other person starts out by trying to visciously jam thier knife into my groin...

Gee, a girl can't even flirt anymore.

[Bestatte]

But what if they're not sparring? What about arena games, for instance? I recall an incident when a character with the assassin skills was pitted against a warrior-class character.

Obviously an assassin will -not- be as good at "warrior type skills" as a warrior is, and if the assassin intends to live through the gladiator ordeal, he's gonna have to revert to what he knows.

So in such a case, wouldn't it make sense for an assassin-skilled character to USE whatever skill he has to survive, even in an arena match where people are watching and judging him? Would the nobles boo and hiss and claim the assassin had no sense of honor, or would they commend the assassin's clever tactics in getting that nasty gorey thrust into the throat or kidney or whatever?

[John]

So in such a case, wouldn't it make sense for an assassin-skilled character to USE whatever skill he has to survive, even in an arena match where people are watching and judging him?

IMO of course. But he also won't be able to use the hide skill IMO because AFAIK there isn't anywhere to hide in the arena, it's a nice wide open floor. But if they emote out somehow getting past the person's defence and being able to backstab them, sure, why not? Just because we know OOCly that backstab is for assassins only, why would it make a lick of difference ICly to someone who decapitated someone's head within 1 minute of the fight?

Would the nobles boo and hiss and claim the assassin had no sense of honor, or would they commend the assassin's clever tactics in getting that nasty gorey thrust into the throat or kidney or whatever?

All depends on the particular noble. IMO the assassin wouldn't automatically get boo'd for using backstab. Also depends if it was a non-lethal match. But if ANYONE finishes a gladitorial match within 1 minute IMO people aren't going to be happy. People go to the arena for a show. It's like a boxing match. If it were to be over in 10 punches there would be an uproar (would an uproar happen in the arena? I don't know. I think some would admire the efficiency, I think some would feel cheated of a fun show).

[X]

Tlaloc, thank you for your input. Having never used the skill training or actual combat, I was not aware if the damage was reduced significantly or not. I can see the point of not using it in sparring. But just needed it clarified. Thank you for your input. Sorry to harp on an old topic. Figured I would ask for the clarification.

[Tlaloc]

But what if they're not sparring? What about arena games, for instance?

Like I said above: "Backstabbing" is used for killing people very, very efficiently. Like the helpfile says,  you don't have to be hidden to do it, nor does it nessecarially constitute a "strike to the back". If you are intending to kill (or seriously injure) someone, by all means, use backstab.

Doing so, in a fair fight, might get you labled as a dirty fighter, but then, Zalanthas is harsh, and "Fair Fight" isn't really a term thats used alot in the world (or shouldn't be, heh). I'll tell you this, though: if I ever got tossed into an arena, you can sure as hell bet I'd forget about any possible Boos from the crowd, and try my hardest to kill whatever was comming after me, asafp.

Maybe your character beleives in "justice", or "fairness". Maybe they just beleive in survival of the fittest. In any case, usage of Backstab should be determined by the character...and the IC results (boos, excecutions, cheers), would likely also be resultant by the characters in the world around you.

The end result is: Backstab is a skill like any other, with appropriate and inapropriate times to use it. For the same reason its not IC to go around killing all the merchants in the Bazaar because you can; for the same reason its not IC to go attacking rats or bumbs in the Rinth; for the same reason its not IC to wake, cast, cast, cast, sleep, repeat; for the same reason its not IC to steal someone's pants in the Gaj; for the same reason its not IC to Free the Downtrodden Couches from the Barrel, or swipe an entire bed out of a house; its not IC for you to backstab your sparring partner.

[Delirium]

*adds, in a very small voice*

Unless you really ARE trying to kill your sparring partner, and are willing to deal with the IC ramifications that could come from this.

*flee self*

[halfbreed]

Some very well thought arguments in here.

If Tlalloc or any other imm is still reading, however, I have a follow-up question then (my apologies if I missed the answer already....  I thought I had read this whole thread a few times over).

How would an assassin ever get proficient then at their trade?  Code-wise I mean?  Backstabbing rats and sparring partners is obviously out.  Backstabbing creatures in the wild?  Perhaps a bit more iffy... probably makes sense, yet it doesn't really represent how a person gets good at landing critical strikes on a humanoid.  Plus, some folks might really want to play an assassin that doesn't venture outdoors much.

You could, of course, try to handle it IC, get killing contracts... convince people to give you legit assassination assignments.  But that would be nigh impossible if your skill is very poor, you have no experience, and no reputation.  Plus, even if you do manage to get some such contracts and are able to "work" on your trade... you'll end up dead since you'll almost inevitably fail in your task, and have made some very dangerous enemies.

[5 day lifespan]

Just so I get this straight then, the only way to be a good assassin is to be a homocidal maniac, jump out of the shadows, stab a stranger and run?  Because if no one can train me (I THINK "teach" only takes you so far), then I can only get better by really using the ability and really killing perfect strangers for no other reason than to get better at it.  This doesnt sit well with me.  Not because I dont want to kill poor schmoes in the streets, quite the contrary, they arent me and therefore deserve to die (from my character's standpoint), but because theres no MONEY in killing poor schmoes on the street!  Sure I can gank them and take their gear, but frell me!  The militia or whoever is in charge is going to be looking for this psychopath toot sweet.
 When you fight normally in sparring, youre trying to find openings in your opponant and try to exploit them, youre trying to win, because when you need to fight someone for real, youll need to learn how to kill them quickly.  When people spar, they beat the ever loving crap out of each other, but with usually non-lethal weapons.  Why wouldnt BSing be the same?  Sure, its gonna hurt, kidney punches do, getting your vertabrae hit does, but when you do martial arts training and they show you lethal strikes, you learn how to really strike those spots, but you do it at less than full power or hit the air in front of that spot.  Now, if you are going to train BS, youd do the same, you wouldnt REALLY be trying to kill someone during training, unless you hated the person.  But theres no code to support lighter strikes; except for sparring weapons.  To me, using sparring weapons means youre pulling your punches, but still getting your hits in.  Couldnt the BS damage for training weapons be lessoned?  And if not, if the Imms hate the idea of getting good at BS (Youre REALLY trying to kill them, even in training.  And I have a feeling BSing Mobs is frowned upon too) why not just nix the class?  I personally LIKE assassins.  They kick ass in their own, sneaky quick-like-ninja sort of way.  But if there is apparently no good IC way to train up their most essential skill... ::makes a motion of tossing "Assassin" code out the window::
 I have plenty of good ideas that will let me use BS in the training hall, or practice it on a willing victim.  But as I said, I feel that those uses would be, in the emote and IC sense, a lighter type hit.  If the Imms disagree, well, no Karma for me, I reckon.  But I made an Assassin, and by God, an Assassin its going to be.  Even if I do have to be a psychopath.  But Ill fight twinking out every step of the way, because I love emoting being sneaky, and I love emoting sliding my daggers between ribs, and I will love getting jobs, when Im good enough.  But for now, I have to continue to train, just like any warrior, just like any crafter, using any means I can.  Not because the skills are the only thing, but they are an important thing.  This isnt a MUSH, this is a MUD.  Skills still have to be developed.
 Though, if instead the point of the post was that you cant SPAR and BS, then Id be far more inclined to agree, there are still IC ways to practice BS with willing targets with training weapons.  But if the stance is that even the use of training weapons is trying to kill someone, then homocidal maniacs will be the only assassins who can BS well, and it wont matter, because here come the Templars.

[Socko]

Just so I get this straight then, the only way to be a good assassin is to be a homocidal maniac, jump out of the shadows, stab a stranger and run?  Because if no one can train me (I THINK "teach" only takes you so far), then I can only get better by really using the ability and really killing perfect strangers for no other reason than to get better at it.  This doesnt sit well with me.  ...  I personally LIKE assassins.  They kick ass in their own, sneaky quick-like-ninja sort of way.  But if there is apparently no good IC way to train up their most essential skill... ::makes a motion of tossing "Assassin" code out the window::
 ... But I made an Assassin, and by God, an Assassin its going to be.  Even if I do have to be a psychopath.  But Ill fight twinking out every step of the way, because I love emoting being sneaky, and I love emoting sliding my daggers between ribs, and I will love getting jobs, when Im good enough.

Use your head, and your imagination; stretch it a little. If you already know some subterfuge and have some limited stealth capabilites, you needn't practice on complete strangers and go serial killer.

Take jobs, and slowly but surely.. you'll get better at it. Use what you have for the answer to your questions. It's all you'll really have, and -should- have in the long run.

That's the beauty of an assassin.

[Uberskaapie]

backstab can be used in mid-fight, if I remember correctly. It makes sense to me that you could do this when sparring. while it wouldn't really be effective damage wise, you can roleplay it as aiming for a specific break in the opponents defense. This will ICly explain how you can tell the most vulnerable spots of the victim and OOCly while it may not be _the_ best way to up your skill, you are going to be able to do it in the end.
  I know it's an old thread, but any thoughts on this?

[Bestatte]

If I were someone looking to hire an assassin, you can bet I wouldn't pay for someone with little skill. An assassin -with the assassin class of skills- will not be as good as a warrior -using warrior-type skills.-

If I were to hire someone whose primary function was to sneak around and kill people with critical strikes, I'd want to know my 'sids were going to someone accomplished, and not some novice with a dagger. Hell, I'd do that myself if that was the case, and I don't even have the backstab skill. But I don't need to pay someone to be BAD at something.

So from that end of things, how would a potential employer justify hiring someone with little or no training, who is considered a twink if he practices this specialized skill on rats, or in a sparring match?

Someone with that little skill isn't gonna live more than a few days outside town to practice, so that isn't a very realistic option.

Killing NPCs is *usually* considered twinkish..

Killing newbies is *usually* considered twinkish.

And so, what avenue does the assassin PC who wants to actually become good at using assasin-based skills take, so that he can be good enough that an employer would feel he was worth hiring in the first place?

[Clegane]

Personally, I think the way the code plays out is very open to interpretation. While Tlaloc's interp is indeed a valid one, it seems a rather constricted stance to take regarding something as ambiguous as mud code.  I tend to favor a more broad interp of the code. IN this specific instance, I tend to view Backstabbing as a 'surprise strike' than a lethal deathblow. Yes, lethal hitting is part of backstabbing, but so is developing a ruse to catch an opponent off-guard. And so is learning to bypass an opponant's natural defenses. I believe these tactics to be perfectly acceptable in sparring. A bit dirty, perhaps, but still valid.

The last assassin I ran (some 18 months ago now) used a variety of tactics when using BS during sparring. Most commonly, I would feign dropping my weapon and stoop to pick it up. Or feign tripping on the mat (or field, whichever). When the opponant closes in t help me up, -bam-, there comes the backstab. I interp the damage done as being reflective of the opponant being unwary rather than getting gored in the kidneys.

Experience has shown, however, that in-clan backstab training is highly dependant on the clan Imm. The clan Imm for my last assassin encouraged such techniques, as did my comrades IC. They understood the importance of my character perfecting that tactic and didn't begrudge me too deeply when I utilized it.

In all, its solely a matter of how the individual parties (and Imm) want to interpret the action. If the decision were up to me, I would not bear any ill will to someone who sparred backstab PROVIDED that they roleplayed the situation as a surprise strike, rather than a critical injury.

As aforementioned, I generally tend to favor a broader interpretation of the code. The more creative someone is willing to get to RP within the code, the more I tend ot enjoy the game. But obviously, that's just one man's opinion.

[creeper386]

Well, I understand my point, and the opposite point, and if I was going to do it, I'd probably still do it and expect any IC consequences, but I'd also expect at least alittle attention to MY RP instead of one coded echoe, and the case is solved.

What I've been trying to say is it shouldn't be used ALL the time in sparring, and it would be used very carefully, and once you get even slightly skilled your probably not going to be using it in combat. And if there are any accidents... Well thats to be taking ICally, but I don't think you should interpet the code and FORCE things onto the player or character that uses them. Just because they used backstab I don't think you can assume, ICily or OOCily, that they were trying to kill that person. Otherwise you can't say anything more about using kill or hit in sparring or any other time. CODEDly, I'm guessing backstabbing with training weapons doesn't really reduce the damage any, but using those weapons in a sparring ring is what denotes sparring normally, and that they ARE pulling their blows. So saying someone is trying to kill someone when they are ICily taking the same precautions and such in sparring but practicing different skills? I think thats being really forceful and tosses RP out the window on note of the code.

I've ran an assassin that was more a warrior using his fighting skills as well as that little bit of underhanded tactics and such like that. I've also heard of people having assassins that were more hunters, and such, only they relied of different tactics the most other hunters, using alot more ambush and such. Just these two concepts, along with normal, assassin out to kill everything, shows a big difference in different ways you would USE backstab, and it won't always be trying to kill. A underhanded warrior might use it to help disable an opponent, so his skill looks that much better. A hunter might use it to ambush a small prey, leave it wounded as bate for a large thing, basically disabling it so it has less chance to get away from the large thing when it comes in. Heck, even you normal assassin may not want to kill someone when using backstab. Just severally injure them, alot of assassins are screwed up mentally, could be the same on Armageddon, and well want to toy with their victims, doing who knows what.

Guess what I'm saying, and have been saying before, is that they RP is at least as important as the code, INCLUDING backstab. If there was an accident, it'd be taking IC but I would hope the players in hand take more into account then code. If more then one accident keeps happening something more severe then be careful and don't do that would probably be taken into place. Otherwords treated the same as a really skilled warrior thats beating the shit out of recruits. I do remember someone sometime back that was really bad ass with clubs. It got to the point that he wasn't allowed to use clubs in sparring because he killed one person and was constantly knocking others out.

Creeper, who well say in closing, "Combat is combat, IG and IRL, and it includes more then just the basic hit and kill."

[Angela Christine]

for the same reason its not IC to go attacking rats or bumbs in the Rinth;

Hey, I resent that!  I think it's fine to kill rats in the rinth, as long as you eat them.  What else is there to eat in the rinth?

I once had a grand plan to start a rat based merchandise buisness.  When you skin the little buggers you can get meat and tiny hides, so I thought, "Hey, there's a buisness oportunity there."  Who wouldn't want to be decked out in patchwork rat leather gear?  I figured I might have to submit some rat crafting items, but I was full of ideas.  I took the armormaker subclass to get tanning and leatherworking, and the assassin guild because they are fair fighters and have some skills that make getting around in the 'rinth easier.  Imagine my chagrin when I realized that neither assassins nor armorcrafters get the skin skill.  :x  Then I died, so at least I wasn't disappointed for a long time.  I suppose I could have gathered a pile of rat corpses and then hired the Byn to skin them for me.   :wink:

AC

[Shinigami]

Guess what I'm saying, and have been saying before, is that they RP is at least as important as the code, INCLUDING backstab."

I'm sorry creeper... but using a coded skill is... using a coded skill.  I can emote all I want that the wind is blowing that tree over, but if I cast 'wind saw' and cut down a tree with it... then guess what, I just used magick.  If I emote that I'm nailing you in the groin with my sparring club... then use 'backstab', guess what I just did... that's right, I tried to do a critical hit on you and take you out.

As an imm, if I saw someone using backstab and going for vital parts on their opponents, I'd be more than happy to apply 'realisim the 'realistic' goings-on... or have other trainers 'realistically' freak out in the room... and 'realistically' boot the person who thinks he can try to slit his sparring opponent's throat.

How, exactly, do you emote a backstab that isn't a backstab?  "emote carefully sneaks up behind you"?  Well, that's not an attack.  Simple point is that if you put in the command 'backstab' you're doing just that, same as if you put in 'cast' or 'steal' or any other command.  The effects are the same.

-Shinigami's views do not reflect staff as a whole.

[5 day lifespan]

As an imm, if I saw someone using backstab and going for vital parts on their opponents, I'd be more than happy to apply 'realisim the 'realistic' goings-on... or have other trainers 'realistically' freak out in the room... and 'realistically' boot the person who thinks he can try to slit his sparring opponent's throat.

How, exactly, do you emote a backstab that isn't a backstab?  "emote carefully sneaks up behind you"?  Well, that's not an attack.  Simple point is that if you put in the command 'backstab' you're doing just that, same as if you put in 'cast' or 'steal' or any other command.  The effects are the same.

So, as was asked previously by Uberskaapie, Bestatte and others, how do you non-twinkishly get better?  Or do we just take Clegane's good advice and RP it out, hoping there's an Imm on who doesnt freak out?

And to answer the emote of a BS question:

"The tall, wiry man lunges in, his dagger striking softly on your vitals.

The tall, wiry man lashes out with his dagger, the edge striking your throat.

You feel a hard poke as the tall, wiry man slips through your defenses"

I could go on, but you see my point.

[Impska]

5 Day, I think you missed Shinigami's point there with the emoting of 'a backstab that isn't a backstab' query.

If I interpreted it correctly, what Shinigami was looking for is this:

The stealthy assassin steps onto the sparring mat and dips a nod.

The buff warrior steps onto the sparring mat and salutes the stealthy assassin with his sparring sword.

The stealthy assassin starts forward and grunts loudly as his foot catches a discarded shield and he falls to a knee.

The stealthy assassin lifts his left hand to the warrior and says, in sirhish,
"Brother Runner...I've given my ankle a bum turn. Help a fella up, eh?"

The buff warrior grins oafishly and steps forward, tucking away his sword to offer a hand to the stealthy assassin.

The stealthy assassin braces himself against the mat and flips his dagger around, propelling his scant weight upward as he strikes, the blade seemingly coming from nowhere. (type BACKSTAB)

What you've witnessed there is an example of using the code to support 'the other half of backstab.' As Clegane mentioned in his previous post, backstab is half lethal striking and half surprise. As long as you emote properly, its up to the player to determine which element of 'sneak attacking' he's actually practicing. The increased damage (assuming the hit is successful) is indicative of him surprising his opponent and getting past his defenses.

[creeper386]

The problem when doing that is your being extremely restrictive on what that person is doing, or not even paying attention to what they are doing. I'd be like in a clan of magick users. You can only cast a certain way, any other way well be getting you in trouble. And because of OOC things discerning a certain spell or something, it's assumed your breaking clan laws when you cast one of those spells.

When someone uses backstab, and your saying they are AUTOMATICALLY trying to kill someone, HOW do you know that? You have no idea what they are trying to do. There are lots of ways that I can think of to use a backstab. Some of them would even be viable in a military organization, and none of them include sneaking up on someone and stabbing them in the back or trying to cut their throat with a dull, blunted dagger.

OOCily you know backstab can kill someone, OOCily you know using kill or hit can kill someone. OOCily you think if that person is in a sparring circle and using sparring weapons, practicing skills to KILL people, that they are ICally pulling their shots, but for some strange reason, the OOC notion that you can kill people with backstab easier means that you can't use any RP around backstab? And that any RP is going to be ignored and that that person is automatically assumed to be trying to kill the other.

Now, like I've said, theres probably going to be things taken ICally, if there are any accidents or if what your RPing is considered bad, and I'm truthful in my RP, if I'm backstabbing someone it's probably going to be a surprise, but it would probably also be after they are ready, and in the circle, if there are IC punishments for that yes. But the punishment shouldn't be soley based on the Backstab echo. It's too bloody close minded. And it means your putting much more basis on coded things then on RP.

And, as for your little magicker arguement. I'm not talking about casting a spell and RPing it as hacking down a tree or anything. I'm talking about RPing backstab as a surprise attack, most likely AIMed for critical spots but either not meant to land, or certainly pulling the strike. Of course, all sorts of rules would be put into place because you used backstab, that what you did was against rules... But this is all because of OOC things and they don't take into account of IC things.

Again, RP is at least as important. I'm not saying;
:lunges at ~runner, with a quick strike.
backstab runner

And expect it to be treated like any other strike. No I'm not, but any valid ideas I can think of well be picked apart and be said, oh, if they can do that with the first strike they can do it anytime in the fight. Which isn't true because if your launching the attack, in a sparring match you dealing with defending yourself at the same time and such, and still... What if this assassin WAS skill with weapons? but haven't trained backstab... If they CAN stand in a fight with another, and still land good blows. Still backstab would be treated with alot of OOC things effect IC judgements and the such.

And to respond to something someone said along time ago, that warriors would use surprise, speed and whatever to land blows... Which isn't true. Is most weapon fighting, it's about skill and thinking ahead. Setting things up. Your not ALWAYS thinking about landing every single strike, your thinking about setting up good solid strikes that aren't going to leave your defenses open.

For the most part, people are fair, and treat RP as at least important as code if not MORE importnat. It's one of the reasons that Armageddon is a great MUD. Well, it should fit for everything. There shouldn't be variances in this, or double standards or anything. It's one of the things that a RPI Mud is based on. Otherwise we'd be alot like any other desert-themed MUD. Making certain skills as only being interpeted one way, is close minded and really destructive to the sense of RP. And again, I'm not saying backstab should always be used, or that there should be no IC consequences for things, I'm saying it should be treated OOCily with the same respect for player interpetation as any other skill, within reasonable bounds, just like any other skill.

Creeper

[5 day lifespan]

True, but I guess I was still calling for a lowering of BS training damage without mentioning it.  Damn my sometimes ineffectual argument style, damn it!

[Dan]

I think it would be very cool if having mercy on either negated/lessened the damage of a backstab, as well as lowered the chance of gaining skill while attempting a backstab. I think its a reasonable solution that most people could be happy with. People will want to train their skills so that they can get better at them. How can an organization start up that wishes to teach its members these arts if they keep killing each other? I say just make it so that while having mercy on, you lessen the damage considerably, change the outgoing backstab message, and lessen the chance of gaining skill. Well?

Dan

[Guest]

Personally I think it all boils down to one thing, the only reason folks should have to get mad if someone uses backstab in a sparring match is because OOC they know a backstab was used. IC the echo could just be a really well-placed attack by their sparring partner just like any other type of attack made in a sparring match.
If someone decides to get angry about it because OOC they know that it was a backstab attempted or landed on them they are using OOC information and applying it IC, if that were the case, I would say it is poor roleplaying on their part for doing so. For all they would know IC it could just be a lucky, or unlucky shot. Realisticly noone always hits exactly their intended attack point. None gets mad when a warrior slashes them in the head or neck during a sparring match and those IMHO are vital areas.

If IC someone is the type of char who would get mad about something like a backstab attempt they should be just as angry about getting hit in the head or neck by what is IC the same thing.

I do agree that it should be rp'ed out when you try to do such an attack on someone.
-Just my opinion on a tough subject.

[Kurano]

This is a long thread, so I'm going to try to not make this longer.

When you try to backstab someone, your intent is to kill them or inflict serious injury. If you use the skill in sparring, expect a negative reaction. That's just how it is. It's not opinion, it's not conjecture. We must all live with this. If you want to play a "backstab" as a normal strike, then use a normal strike.

How then, do you get better at backstabbing? Use it when you have to. I don't know where people got the idea that assassins aren't tough without the skill, because even without backstab assassins are brutal. Backstab only adds to that. At high levels, backstab can be unfathomly deadly. So yeah - it's a hard skill to get good at. That's intentional.