Hey, that's mine!

[Glowworm]

First of all, I'd like to premise this message by saying a big

THANK YOU!

to the IMM that helped me out with the situation.  However, it got me thinking...

Why is the world does every NPC pick up items randomly in the game?  Are they all scavengers and thieves?  It really doesn't make a lot of IC sense for a law abiding NPC to wander down the road, casually pick up the backpack that's at your feet, and then stand there in front of you...At least they could run away.

What do you all think?  Maybe this function could be removed from NPC's?

[Bestatte]

And FURTHERMORE! How is it that every freaking NPC in the game, no matter how scrawny or dishevelled or sick or lame or missing a leg or clutching his arm in a sling is able to pick up and walk away with an object that weighs as much as a real-life 30" TV?

I mean come ON. That makes no sense at all. If someone is "appearing unwell" and looks like she's about to drop from starvation, there's no way in hell anyone should expect her capable of picking up much more than a begging basket.

[Dakkon Black]

I think you should be wary of where you are deciding to leave you pack.  Standing in a busy shop and dropping a pack is rather retarded. Also unless you ldesc said " Is here staring at his pack" Well maybe someone grabbed it while you werent looking? Just because it said in huge letters that some twisted reject elf grabbed everthing you own doesnt mean you saw them. It just means you are stupid for putting you items infront of said freakish npc. Secondly, what if they grabbed it and tossed it to thier Vnpc buddy around the corner? Admittedly is a little strange if all NPC's instantly think that taking the bandana you just dropped is a good idea. But the code is ther to interact with you, and you got it!  

[John]

It really doesn't make a lot of IC sense for a law abiding NPC to wander down the road, casually pick up the backpack that's at your feet, and then stand there in front of you...

The problem is that NPCs can't tell if the backpack is at your feet or if you just tossed it onto the side of the road and walked off.

What do you all think?  Maybe this function could be removed from NPC's?

I don't think it should be. I like the fact that some NPCs pick up dropped items, however I agree that it should be tweaked. IMO NPCs that have crutches or something shouldn't be picking up things. There should also be a weight limitation.

Also, who says that all NPCs are law-abiding? IMO ALL 'rinther NPCs should be picking up stuff off the ground. There should also be a check for NPCs to check their health as well as their movement points. If their movement points is low then they shouldn't be picking up heavy objects. If they're bleeding profusely then they shouldn't be picking up anything.

Some of these factors might already be in the game. I personally have only ever found a handful of NPCs that pick up objects so I don't know how it works too well. I've seen objects stay IG for QUITE a few days, so I doubt it's "every" NPC.

[Lazloth]

IMO NPCs that have crutches or something shouldn't be picking up things. There should also be a weight limitation.

If you see NPCs that you don't think should be set to SCAVENGER (or whatever the bit is here) [ie., the armless dwarven prostitute] -- and, assuming it is -- , typo the mob.

[Bestatte]

Yes, dropping what probably weighed 150 pounds on the road because you're too exhausted to move further might well be irresponsible. That isn't the point.

The point is that these NPCs all have super-human strength. Someone who is trained and has great stamina, who has to *drag* something because it's too heavy even for him to lift it, should -not- be easily liftable by a starving waif.

In addition, that item was being *GUARDED* by someone else. That means the object WAS being watched closely.

[Mekeda]

First, consider the world. If you drop something in front of an NPC that is scrawny, underfed and looks ill, are they likely to grab it and run? In my opinion, yes. As for their being uber strong... perhaps it is just that they are wearing four rags and carrying nothing as opposed to the PC that is wearing a complete set of armor, matching jewelry and has a small city on his back.  Strip naked. Wear two items of clothing and a pair of shoes. Now try to pick up that 30 pound pack. Much easier to do, I guarentee you.

Npc's are not designed to be superhuman. Most of the NPC's that I have designed or encountered as a staff member have flaws and weaknesses just like the PC's.  

Mekeda

[Anonymous]

Personally I'd rather have the NPCs set to pick up everything than walk through rooms littered with detritus.

Some of the other muds I've tried didn't have NPC litter control, and it looked very cheesy to see:

(4) sets of bronze armor are here.
(4) sets of bronze sleeves are here.
(6) bronze helmets are here.
(12) bronze shortswords are here.


In like...every other room.

[Bestatte]

I wasn't referring to the waif's clothes. I was referring to her entire description. She looked ill, she was "stumbling along here, appearing unwell", her description showed that she was a young girl, exceptionally think and malnourished.

The pack wasn't a 30-pound pack. If it was, the guy who was taking care of it wouldn't have had a problem lifting it. It was as heavy as one of those big baobab beds, loaded with dozens of "easily manageable" things that totalled a serious load.

It was also being guarded, via the actual "guard" command.

This child-NPC who looked barely capable of holding HERSELF up, let alone an extremely heavy object, lifted it as if she had plucked a daisy. In addition, I have *never* seen an NPC standing there, "looking winded." At the very least, she'd have been winded after walking away with it.

It looks to me as though NPC codes have some odd bug in them that prevents them from tiring, and allows some of them to lift things that according to their description they shouldn't be capable of lifting. I'd imagine it's part of the same set of code that prevents them from starving or dying of thirst.

It also looks like the "guard" command is either not working correctly, or is missing an echo like:

The small waif smirks at you and pushes you out of the way, picking up the backpack despite your best efforts to guard it.

[Midland]

I have seen alot of NPCS looking winded but perhaps not in the city you were in. Which I know from the information given in this post.

I think what Mekeda was trying to point out is that maybe the NPC LOOKED sick, clothingwise descriptionwise, but it was a generated look that girl was trying to give. Who's to say she really IS sick or not?

What could and should be done is:

bug Hey, could you look into The incredibly sick-looking, strong-ass girl npc please. She just picked up this thing that we were guarding and it probably weighs about 5xs what she does.

Now to expand further, you were in the street. Yes, you were guarding said item and watching it closely. Perhaps a group of vpcs ran by, bumping into all of you, taking your attention off it for a few moments while you all were regaining your balance. In the meantime, that girl tried to drag it to the side of the road with all her vpcs buddies wandering between to hide it from you.

contact templar

psi Lord Templar, this child and her friends just stole from us. We have them cornered on such and such, could you assist us please?

There's ways to make it IC.  

[naatok]

Why not try:
drop pack;guard pack
:?:

I believe you can guard objects as well as people and exits.

[aeshyw]

I was once dragging a newly purchased couch down the street with someone else helping and a female beggar NPC picked it up.  Once I stopped laughing long enough to wish up for help, though, someone was kind enough to make her drop it.

I think it would be nice if a flag could be added to dragged objects that would require some type of extra check if an NPC sees them.  It seems to me that dragging implies you're holding the object.  Your description in the room makes it appear that way.  Some might be daring enough to walk up to nobleman xxx and his cadre of guardsmen to steal that box of wood, but others might be more careful about their scavenging.

Just a thought...

[tortall]

Exactally! Once with one of my Bynners, we had gone rock hunting. The pack was much too heavy for me and my friend to fully carry, so we were dragging it down the street. And this NPC just picks up the whole pack! While me and my friend were still holding it!

While I'm on it... One of my friend was dragged off to jail because he tried to subdue me when I was knocked out. I of course had nosave on, but there was a militia PC there. Rather stupid, really. But anyways, he dropped his swords so the militia NPC's wouldn't lose them, but when I finally woke up, they were gone!

So, my point is this: NPCs pick up too -way- too easly. Once with my Fale she dropped a scarf or something outside Traders. Well, that begger immedatly picked it up! I mean, before I even had a change to type get scarf! No imms were around, and eventually a militia PC killed him and get out off his body for me. Yes, yes, rather twinky, but hey, I was a noble! He wasn't listening to me!

... Yeah, ok. I agree that NPCs -should- be able to pick up stuff. But -only- after it's been sitting there a second. What if someone handed you something and for some odd reason the code made you drop it? And it was a really valuable item? What do you do then? What -is- with that dropping things sometimes? I never understood that.

Wow, I'm being totally random here. But yes, there should be some limitations to NPCs and them picking up stuff.

ESPACALLY IF TWO PCS HAVE THEIR STINKING HANDS ON THE ITEM!


-Tortall, who was very pissed she lost the three nice stones in the pack.

[Lazloth]

Why not try:
drop pack;guard pack
:?:

I believe you can guard objects as well as people and exits.

It was also being guarded, via the actual "guard" command.

It also looks like the "guard" command is either not working correctly, or is missing an echo like:

The small waif smirks at you and pushes you out of the way, picking up the backpack despite your best efforts to guard it.

[/color]

[naatok]

It was also being guarded, via the actual "guard" command.

It also looks like the "guard" command is either not working correctly, or is missing an echo like:

The small waif smirks at you and pushes you out of the way, picking up the backpack despite your best efforts to guard it.

Ah.  Well, in that case, may I suggest 'Terminate...with extreme prejudice'?
:twisted:

[Bestatte]

Terminate with extreme prejudice would've landed our asses in jail, and the NPC would've been laughing her ass off collecting the many thousands of 'sids she'd make by selling all the stuff to the Bazaar.

If a PC were to grab something on the street in front of witnesses and STAND there long enough for people to say "HEY PUT THAT DOWN!", you can bet your ass there would be a chase and some way to RP it out. Only a twink would go up to a heavily armored enormous hulking looking man and grab his shit right out in the open without so much as an attempt to "palm" or "hide" without giving it a second thought.

And yet we are all powerless to do anything about it if an IMM doesn't happen to be around, even if there are half a dozen Militia soldier NPCs standing right in front of you.

While this incident happened during a time when an IMM was around - and I think everyone should be grateful as hell for that...

There are times when IMMs aren't around to do anything about it. Short of losing everything and ending up in jail, there isn't a thing any non-templar or non-militia PC can do about it. Even nobles would be powerless, and not be able to order their NPC guards to smack the NPC silly and get away with it.

I find this a minor flaw, since it happens so rarely, but a very significant one because when it DOES happen, it causes a lot of IC consequences if you try and actually get the stuff back.

We have no control over the IMMs' schedules, or even the templar and militia PC's schedules. But there really should be some way to handle these kinds of situations...like perhaps a "report" command, so you can go to your nearest militia or templar NPC, and REPORT this guy stole my stuff.

Make it so the report can only be applied to NPCs scavengers. The NPC militia/Templar would follow you to the NPC scavenger and do a "loot check" to see if it is carrying anything that NPC scavenger isn't meant to come with, and a second check to see if the item(s) were added to his inventory over the past, say, real-life hour. If so, the NPC templar/militia would force the scavenger to drop whatever he picked up in the last "x" amount of time, and be hauled off to jail.

A pseudo-pseudo code kinda thing could be:

NPC picks up random item.
Set clock on NPC.
If no report before clock ticks one hour, reset clock to 0 and discontinue count.
If report within hour of count, militia/templar order to drop item results in dropped item.

If multiple things picked up in various places as of the moment the first item was picked up, drop all items picked up during that period.

Track all items as they're picked up, first item leaves the list after 1 hour, second leaves the list as of the hour after IT is picked up, etc.

[Anonymous]

This all seems like a lot of work for something that you can work around once it happens to you.

I only drop things in a room without NPCs in it and change my ldesc to be sitting on it or by it.

If an NPC enters I do a 'get all'.

I'd rather coding time be put into something more positive, like allowing people to see what they can craft from an item in a merchant's inventory or that you don't get poisoned by a spear that misses you....

I can appreciate being frustrated, but the one time this happened to me a wish up solved it all and I haven't been bit by it since.

[Bestatte]

Wish up works only if there's someone logged in to wish TO. We have to accept and appreciate that imms aren't around 24/7, nor should they ever feel obligated to be.

GET ALL only works if the item dropped is light enough to pick up - and obviously it isn't if you had to drop it because you were too exhausted to go any further.

GET ALL also only works if you are capable of picking it up in full, and not just half of it, because NPCs can grab the other half and walk away with it.

Dropping in a room with no NPCs only works if an NPC doesn't wander in the second after you dropped it. FINDING a room where NPCs don't go would be great, but the whole reason you're dropping it in the first place is because you can't walk the thing to safety because it's too heavy.

As I said, this doesn't happen often. But when it does happen, if an IMM or PC templar/militia person isn't around -and- available to help, you're screwed. I offered a suggestion on making NPC interaction more realistic. From a C++ point of view it wouldn't be extraordinarily difficult to implent, though it would probably be a bit complex and require several dozen lines of code. I have no idea what it would take to implement using the code Arm uses.

I do know, however, that a seasoned coder should be able to create the snippet within a couple of hours, since I'm a rank amateur and have done more complex things than that in slightly longer time period.

[Cenghiz]

And sometimes in my role, I just don't skin the scrabs' bodies and drag them to a safe place. The ending? A scrab happily devours it. It's easy to roleplay to fall back and ready weapons as the scrab eats, and... Think it people; PC's do so much -bad- thing to your fellow PC's. So should NPC's. It's OK for a scrab to gnaw the body that you're dragging. But humanoid NPC's should be more polite I think.

[Glowworm]

First, let me say, thanks for all the constructive response.

I'll try to make this short, so I'm going to lump some peoples arguments together....Dakkon Black, John, and Midland had this basic theme common in their response:

Quote:
I think you should be wary of where you are deciding to leave you pack. Standing in a busy shop and dropping a pack is rather retarded. Also unless you ldesc said " Is here staring at his pack" Well maybe someone grabbed it while you werent looking? Just because it said in huge letters that some twisted reject elf grabbed everthing you own doesnt mean you saw them. It just means you are stupid for putting you items infront of said freakish npc. Secondly, what if they grabbed it and tossed it to thier Vnpc buddy around the corner?  


You all are correct, but only under very specific terms. This is akin to people typing close emotes, i.e. "The scar-faced man punches you in the face and knocks you out cold.". Just because the code _allows it_ doesn't mean it's _realistic_ or that it could _reasonably happen_. In this scenario, an extremely well armed man was physically holding the item but could not lift it fully off the ground. Of course, yes...a group of elves could come by and bump into him and some sickly-lass can drag the backpack off...but this should be the _exception_, not the the _rule_ as set by code. If a PC or an IMM had animated an NPC and come by and taken the pack in a _realistic way_ I would not have started this thread.

And I suppose a good idea would be to "typo" or "bug" NPC's that we don't think should be "scavengers" as Lazloth suggested. From my limited experience, though, almost every NPC is a "scavenger". Afterall, even the jozhals pick up and carry/wield the spears you throw at them. Rather, as I alluded to in my first post, I think the scavenging function should be removed for all NPC's and be reinstated only for those NPC's in situations where it would be _realistic_ for them to pick up _anything_ and _everything_ around them (NPC's that are kleptomaniacs, etc).

In response to CRW...no, I don't think this is the most important issue. Admittedly, this is the first time I've had a problem with it. However, it would have been a huge inconvinience had an IMM not been around at the time to "fix" the situation. Although this might not be seen as an effective use of the staff's time when compared to many other coding issues, I disagree with you to the point that not wanting to see items scattered about everywhere is a good reason for lack of realism in the game.