I hate magickers, official thread.

[Malken]

and I can tell you since the stat priorioty was put in I think I have played like 3 mages and put wisdom has #1 and never got anything lower than exceptional, thus making my spells go up unbeleivably fast.

I said that, too, a few months ago, but everyone skipped over it.. Come on, we all know that at least 99% of the players that play magickers will stat prioritize wisdom.. It's THE stat you need, and more than half the time, you'll never get anything less than pretty freakin' good wisdom that way.

Another difference between warriors and magickers is that magickers only really need one stat to give them a major bonus in their class and that bonus is quite easy to gain.

A warrior probably needs more than decent strength, agility and endurance if they want a good starting boost, and on top of that, a good wisdom certainly doesn't hurt, but that's much more difficult to achieve than just getting one exceptional stat.

And don't forget to take your medicine while you're at it, too, Forest Junkie.

[Marauder Moe]

I don't think what Hymwen did was so terrible.  It's not like she didn't roleplay too or anything, at least I assume.  Though, if I were her I'd totally keep the character.  No reason you can't change the focus of a character (unless you're a dwarf) and start doing things differently.  Have some goals beyond gaining power, make more friends... or enemies.

I do understand the defensive sentiment, though.  I myself am a pretty big defender of magickers.  I would really hate that the actions of a few (or many) players who are perceived as powergamers to ruin things for the more restrained players.

Still, I'm open to the possibility that something is wrong and something needs to be done.  Not many of the solutions are that good, though.  Weakening magickers would take away the fear that, in theory at least, is associated with them.  Slowing down spell progression is just going only going to slightly hinder powergamers, not stop them, while it could cripple the more casual players.  Karma reform would certainly make them more rare, but naturally you're sacrificing magicker-magicker interaction.

[Boggis]

.......

Thank you for making me feel better in work today. I was having a irritating day but to see somebody blow their top so spectacularly in a rant like that just cheered me up no end. I don't agree with it at all but it was hilarious to read nonetheless.

[LoD]

Alright, I've had enough of this shit. You've had beef against magickers ever since you lost your buff warrior to one. It's time to grow the fuck up and stop harassing us players who don't twink. I've watched you make similar posts for a couple years now, and I've had enough of this.

If cursing and bolding words in stentences to help make your point is a measure of maturity, then I'm sorry to disappoint.  I've been frustrated with magickers in game far before I ever lost a "buff warrior" to one, which was actually to an NPC, and doesn't even really have a bearing on this particular conversation.  Assumptions aren't going to win you arguements, which is what this entire thread is about -- someone's "hate" for magickers in the game.  A thread, you'll notice, that I didn't start.

]If you grow weary of us, then I am most certainly growing fucking weary with you and your holier than thou attitude. You have no idea what you speak of, yet you present yourself as the champion of the "mundane" players, the fallen pariah whom has risen from the ashes to lead his acolytes to glory and victory on the damned general discussion board.

If you've assumed all of these things about me, that's your problem.  I never claimed to be a champion of anything.  However, I do happen to use past experience, supported points, valid arguements, and a logical analysis of the situation to formulate my opinion.  I'm sorry it doesn't agree with yours, but that isn't a reason to curse and call people names.  Other people on the forums disagree with me, but they seem plenty capable of making constructive posts that address my arguements instead of me, the player.

In fact, the entire idea of civil conversation frustrating you to the point of running to a "gun range" to shoot helpless animals doesn't do much for your own credibility as a mature and rationale person.  So you can understand when someone might take your comments, which have nothing to do with the conversation and everything to do with attacking people personally, with a grain of salt.

None of my comments are meant to change the way magickers progress through their spell tiers, but to place some attention on the fact that several factors are contributing to a degradation in gameplay due to the proliferation of magickers.  And while I agree that it's ideal for someone to assume a role with the full intention of playing out the character, I'd rather have 10 Hymwen magickers quietly testing things in the background than 1 twink magicker aggressively causing trouble.

-LoD

[ale six]

Am I the only one that finds these statements disturbing? Dude, what she did was WRONG, if not worse than the asshole twinks who do misuse the code to gain power.

What I find disturbing is the lengths some people are going to defend magickers in the face of clear evidence that they branch really really really quick if you want them to. You can argue whether that's right or not, just like you can argue if it's right for an assassin to sneakhide everywhere she goes and practice backstab on scrabs, but the fact is, you can do it and PEOPLE ARE DOING IT, because the game lets them.

I would be insanely upset and worried if it was possible to make an assassin, and within two days, progress my skills to the point where I could kill with one backstab, and had high enough sneak/hide to backstab past your average NPC guard. But for some reason, it takes a mundane character about 15 days to max out and branch their tier 1 skills, while a mage can branch her tier 1 spells in about one day?

Here's my take on things, what I think is the formula for the problems we're seeing lately:

1) Game is ending... sometime vaguely soon. Everyone is rushing to play all the guilds now before things end. More mages, mindbenders, sorcs, etc.
2) People are also applying for special applications for guilds above their karma level in higher numbers. I wonder if there's a difference between how many are being accepted lately vs. how many used to be accepted. My hypothesis would be yes.
3) Mages, as Halaster said, were designed to hit lots of power faster than normal, because they were intended to be a small, controlled segment of the population played by responsible players.
4) Because if 1 and 2, the mage population is no longer as small or as controlled, and inevitably that means there will be more irresponsible mages. Unfortunately these mages are still being allowed to progress the same way they did under the old standard.


I think this is a sad thing all around. Not only is magick becoming less rare and mysterious, we're losing mundane characters that would normally be playing in the cities in favor of mage characters who can frolic around the deserts, or hide out in the rinth or Red Storm. I guess that's great if you enjoy playing in those places. As a mostly city-based player it's hard for me to adjust that the central areas that were once the focus of the game now seem like the boring safespots hidden away from Super Magicky Dangerland everywhere else.

One last thing... I feel like this debate is starting to attack the messenger and not the message. Hymwen gets called a twink for showing she can double her spell list in two days without even spending her whole time spamming. People flame LoD, and flame the rest of us for agreeing with him, as if that invalidates everything we say. I guess if you REALLY like mages that much that you so vehemently want to resist anything that might change them, go ahead. For my part, I wish they were far less prominent right now.

[Hymwen]

I do understand the defensive sentiment, though. I myself am a pretty big defender of magickers. I would really hate that the actions of a few (or many) players who are perceived as powergamers to ruin things for the more restrained players.

I think some people are misunderstanding a little. I don't want things to get any worse for those who play what I and others consider responsible magickers. It's the fact that doing the opposite is very rewarding that bothers me.

Funny thing is that I'm being called a twink for advancing a character so fast, yet some of the same people are telling me that the system should work like that. If you didn't play that way and you know that it's wrong to do, why do you care if I want it changed? If you did (ab)use the ridiculously fast skill progression of magickers to your advantage, then you can hardly call others a twink for doing so.

That's not targeted at anyone specific, I just find the whole thing odd.

[Twilight]

I don't want to go into the mechanics I've noticed about how you increase the power of your spells and branch them, but I will say that there is a maximum rate at which you can progress your magicking character.  It may be too fast for some people's taste, but do not think for a second it doesn't exist.

[Apocalyptic_Cow]

So I made a rogue mage recently, not because I wanted to play one but simply to see for myself if the skill progression was really as fast and easy as many of us thought. It was faster than I had imagined. At two days played, here's the result:

For some reason, I find this really disappointing. It seems you're just trying to startle people. For the last RL year and a half, I've placed extensively with mages in group-oriented situations, and while I can't speak for the few odd stragglers, the RP has been prime (thus keeping me there), and progression has been fine. If you've proven the obvious, that powergaming is possible, I'll attest that there is also some fantastic RP going on, and this thread risks throwing the baby out with the bathwater. (apologies if you've ever actually done this)

By making characters with OOC aims, like experimenting, or proving points on the discussion board, you're contributing to the problem. We don't need more empty PCs, that's one of the core problems this thread is struggling to fix. Why not help the situation, create a character who isn't what this thread is denouncing, and inject some life into it?

[Hymwen]

Because I don't want to play a career magicker. I don't get your point, how are your friends who are apparently responsible and interesting roleplayers harmed in any way by my attempt to make powergaming less rewarding?

[Dakurus]

I know everyone enjoys having a group of similar folk around them when they play. It's more sociable, provides a more robust environment, and is generally more fun. This is true, if you're in the Byn, in a tribe, in a rinth gang, in a house military, being a gemmer/temple devotee, or a enclave of magickers. Sadly, we've got a very limited playerbase (until you teach your children and their friends) to fill a wide spectrum of roles and areas. And how those roles are filled can and does have a potentially significant impact on the rest of the PC population, especially if those roles are powerful and are not seriously opposed. (tribes, rinth gang, templars, magickers)

Halaster made a very good point about the changes made to magickers, and how it was made with certain assumptions about the then "current" rarity.

Is it that much of a surprise that this seems to be an issue in light of that?
1. More then half the classes available are magicker or psi
2. Karma accumulates over time, and we tend to attract long term players
3. Special apps are allowed

Magicker classes are attractive in that they are something new to explore, and give a very different spectrum of abilities. You have so many to choose from and experience. Additionally with the increase in magicker PC's you have more chance of having like individuals to play, learn, and interact with.

When they were a chore, there tended to be less. Less players to interact with, more of a pain in the ass, less people had access to them and they generally weren't as enticing to play.

The decrease in rarity while as a direct result of the above and us allowing players to pretty much freely play what they want (given the karma) leads to a conflict with the documented rarity, and the game experience as it relates to that for the players.

It's an imperfect science, but I'm glad the discussion is happening, because it's important we learn, both for this version of Arm and the next.

[Tarx]

I think Apocalyptic Cow meant to play something (anything) with life in it.  Not necessarily a gicker.

[Malken]

I don't think Hymwen is a twink at all, I just think that she represents a huge percentage of our playerbase, someone with plenty of time compared to the ones who only play an hour or two a night which seems like the current magick system was made for.

Let's say you log on, you go to your secret hideout, you cast a few spells.. That takes maybe 20 minutes top.. Then you start heading out, exploring the area around you, maybe find a social spot, interact a little with others... That's maybe an hour of your time, so in your daily playtime, you still have five hours or so to go... So what happens, then? You probably head back to your secret hideout, cast a few more spells, then you walk out again, do a few different things.. But after a while, you certainly go back and cast again, no?

Can the admins really blame you if you play that way? It's not being twinkish, it's just that the system was probably made to help the 'casual' players be able to do more than just cast spells to become powerful enough to survive after a while. So the system probably works GREAT for the few that only gets an hour or so after work a day..

But the problem is that how many players only get to play an hour or two a night compared to the ones with 5+ hours a day? I would say that the 'casual' players on a RPI mud are VERY low...

So two days of playtime and 20 spells on Hymwen's character might seem like A LOT to the guy who only plays two hours a night and which took him maybe 4 RL months to get his character to 5 days, but to the majority of the rest of the playerbase, a two days character might also just be a week RL long character tops.

So again, there's no need to call Hymwen a TWINK, she's just been truthful about it. How many magickers are currently in the game and doing exactly what she's doing but camouflaging it with some semblance of roleplay?

[Gimfalisette]

Hymwen, thank you for doing that experiment. Obviously you've brought something to light here, and I appreciate that you've been willing to risk being called a "twink" for the sake of illustrating something.

Everyone who's been all over Hymwen's case about this...y'all need to just chill. She's not saying that this is how mages SHOULD be played. She's saying this is how they CAN be played, if someone wants to do so. And she's pointing out that this potentially damages the game, in combination with the great increase in magicker characters.

I am all about mages being powerful and having great power, yadda yadda. But I also wish they were rarer than currently being experienced. I guess people are playing them more, and being allowed to play them more, because the End is Nigh. The obvious, unfortunate side effect of this is that it makes them no longer rare and totally throws things out of whack.

This is exactly what a lot of us have been trying to say for months now. The sad, honest truth is that it's now harder to find mundane characters to RP with in the city of Tuluk than it is to find magicker characters to RP "with" in the northern wilderness.

That said, I'm really enjoying the current population of mages. This is because until about the last year and a half, every mage I had (and I had more than a few) would meet generally less than five mages in their lifetimes. It never felt like you were actually involved with magick, whereas nowadays you can get into things where you feel like you are.

I am glad for you that you are getting the RP you want, and I don't mean that sarcastically in the least; I really am glad. But with a weekly player count that is down by 100 from pre-announcement, and the current great increase in number of magicker characters, that also means that magickers in comparison to the rest of the player populace are FAR from rare anymore...and it likewise means that there just aren't enough mundane characters in some areas, such as Tuluk. Tuluk is a ghostland nowadays...like playing in a big, spread-out iso clan with lots of shops. Even on nights when player count is in the 50s or 60s, it's rare to see more than 3 or 4 PCs hanging out anywhere in public in Tuluk.

The game overall is hurting over this issue. The northlands are especially negatively impacted, due to a lot of factors noted by LoD, because it's so attractive to magicker characters and there's been a global shift away from mundanes and toward magickers.

[LauraMars]

If you've proven the obvious, that powergaming is possible, I'll attest that there is also some fantastic RP going on

That is awesome.  There are definitely well played mages and I am glad you are confirming it.  The problem is, people weren't believing that this kind of skill progression was possible, however obvious it may have been to you (see a few pages back in the thread) and Hymwen has demonstrated proof of this fact.

By making characters with OOC aims, like experimenting, or proving points on the discussion board, you're contributing to the problem.

She's not contributing to the problem, she's contributing data about the magicker template for us to ponder.  Why is this bad?  Discussion is an exchange of knowledge.  Don't hate, assimilate.

[Malken]

This is exactly what a lot of us have been trying to say for months now. The sad, honest truth is that it's now harder to find mundane characters to RP with in the city of Tuluk than it is to find magicker characters to RP "with" in the northern wilderness.

And then, out of the few PCs left there, you have to wonder how many of them are just rogue magickers trying to pass for mundane characters.. :?

At some point, with my previous character there, I was even willing to start accepting the fact that some of his friends might be rogue magickers, because I was really running out of mundane characters to interact with..

[Apocalyptic_Cow]

I'm not hating on, uh, the exchange of knowledge. But why do we need to dive into the mud for this sort of data, making empty characters, especially when we have staff telling us what's up?

It's really not even data...its datum...its anecdotal.

We have staff telling us that mages have been constructed to be able to get their first few steps easier than other classes. Combining that with the notion that if you push for your skills, you can rush any class, don't we already know that in a short period if time, if you wanted, you could do this?

In response to Hymwen, these aren't my friends. It's not a gang of players opposed to other gangs of players. I've been in positions where many characters have come and gone, so it's been a stream of different players, lots, and they've been grand. What troubles me is the "shock factor" of your "experiment". People are going to be even -more- on edge, OOC, when encountering magickers, and that is trouble for people who want to offer a neat scene.

[jhunter]

I for one, completely agree with everything Forest Junkie said. I think he was right on the nose on -all- counts. LoD never openly spoke out some adamantly against magick in the game until after losing his really long lived warrior to a magickal being in the blink of an eye. I noticed this as well and that's why his arguments against magick hold no salt in my opinion. There are also other factors that I know of ICly (that I'm not going to post on the board here about) that several of the "anti-magicker" people did something very foolish icly and lost their pcs because of it, then jumped on the bandwagon with the magickhaters. Alot of the claims in this thread are false.
I also see no reason to -fuck over- those of us who do not twink out our skills and do unrealistic things with magickers because of a -few- people who might do it. Then it makes it pretty much a given that in order to be successful with a mage you will -have- to twink out skills. I don't want to see it come to that, it would completely ruin any enjoyment of playing them.

I would also like to add: Since this thread popped up I have made an outdoorsman type pc and have yet to encounter a single drop of magick.

[Ghost]

I'm not hating on, uh, the exchange of knowledge. But why do we need to dive into the mud for this sort of data, making empty characters, especially when we have staff telling us what's up?

More than ten pages ago, I used to be in this thread and give examples of what I have seen/witnessed.  And people refused to believe that, saying that I have to play one and see I am wrong.

Apperantly I was right.  Apperantly it was that obvious, and refusing it so blantly was disturbing enough that a proof to the point of sticking it into the eye was required.  And still we hear "Oh shit I bet you had AI wisdom."  1000 sids say she did not have AI wisdom.

P.S:  Hello, I am back in the thread by the way.  Not for long though.

[Gimfalisette]

This is exactly what a lot of us have been trying to say for months now. The sad, honest truth is that it's now harder to find mundane characters to RP with in the city of Tuluk than it is to find magicker characters to RP "with" in the northern wilderness.

And then, out of the few PCs left there, you have to wonder how many of them are just rogue magickers trying to pass for mundane characters.. :?

At some point, with my previous character there, I was even willing to start accepting the fact that some of his friends might be rogue magickers, because I was really running out of mundane characters to interact with..

Yep, pretty much anymore in Tuluk it goes like this:
-- Meet new character. Yay, this is rare, we only see a couple new people per RL week anymore, cool fun new friend maybe!
-- Look at new character. Uh-oh. Character is dressed all in newbie clothes and has no tattoos. This is a red flag either for "totally new to the MUD and has no idea what they're doing, but read enough of the docs to know that assassins are kewl in Tuluk" or "rogue magicker."
-- Ask new character about their life story. Confirm that they "grew up around here and there and always kind of drifted." Yep, rogue magicker.
-- Decide that if your character likes this new character, we'll just OOCly ignore any hints of magickerness that might come up, even though I've seen it so damn often it's like getting hit with a wooden plank between the eyes.
-- And after all that, probably never see new rogue magicker friend anymore anyways, because they've either died in the wilderness or gone and found some rogue magicker buddies or something.

There is, very honestly, an ennui that is setting in on me over this whole issue. I can neither OOCly nor ICly maintain the belief that magick is rare, nor maintain consistent fear, when my interaction with non-mundane aspects of the gameworld is so constant. (And by constant I mean "at each and every login.") My character probably should have died of fear-adrenaline overload a long time ago, but instead I think we're both just becoming desensitized to it.

[Ghost]

I also see no reason to -fuck over- those of us who do not twink out our skills and do unrealistic things with magickers because of a -few- people who might do it.

Why does it bother you if power seeking/powergaming is not what you do?  If the level of power and how easy it is to attain is not a reason for you to play magicker, why do you even care if people are saying they should not attain so much skills/spells/powers in such a short time?

If a 30 day magicker can come up with 30 different ideas of how easily killing my 50 day mundane character, it is fine.  But I WISH it would take 30 days of playtime for a magicker to be considered dangerous enough.

[Malken]

I'm not hating on, uh, the exchange of knowledge. But why do we need to dive into the mud for this sort of data, making empty characters, especially when we have staff telling us what's up?

Because the Staff isn't exactly telling us what's up, actually.. At first, the two that were part of this discussion were telling us that everything was working as it should be, but if you read the last five pages, now they are telling us that maybe something is not working as it should and that it might affect the quality of the mud and the way we should see magickers, as per the documentation.

[jhunter]

I also see no reason to -fuck over- those of us who do not twink out our skills and do unrealistic things with magickers because of a -few- people who might do it.

Why does it bother you if power seeking/powergaming is not what you do?  If the level of power and how easy it is to attain is not a reason for you to play magicker, why do you even care if people are saying they should not attain so much skills/spells/powers in such a short time?

If a 30 day magicker can come up with 30 different ideas of how easily killing my 50 day mundane character, it is fine.  But I WISH it would take 30 days of playtime for a magicker to be considered dangerous enough.

The problem is that by making progression harder you make it harder to just survive. As a gemmer, you aren't useful to anyone to support yourself until a certain point. As a rogue magicker, you are unable to keep from being killed by the first npc, pc, weather, or whatever else until you reach a certain point.
It's hard enough as it is if you are playing realistically. I don't want to see it become harder just to survive even. Making it harder to become powerful to stop the twinks will also result in making it harder to even survive for those who did not twink out their skills. That's why.
If you want to cut down the time it takes to become truly powerful you need to make them more powerful to begin with in order for them to have a decent chance of survival.

[LauraMars]

But everyone is mad at Hymwen for branching 10 spells in 2 days or whatever.  You and Forest Junkie are furious about the entire situation, but you want the ability to branch 10 spells in 2 days to remain?

What are you angry about again?  I mean I'm really curious.

[Malken]

The problem is that by making progression harder you make it harder to just survive. As a gemmer, you aren't useful to anyone to support yourself until a certain point. As a rogue magicker, you are unable to keep from being killed by the first npc, pc, weather, or whatever else until you reach a certain point.

That is only true if you are a clueless new guy on his first magicker or so.. The problem is that by making it easier for the few people that are playing a magicker for the first time, it also makes it a hell lot easier for the twenty other characters that are on their 10+ magickers and know exactly where to go, where to find fruits popping out of nowhere every 20 minutes or so, a source of infinite water, where to hide, etc.. It also makes it a lot easier for those who knows exactly what to branch and what spells to focus on to get powerful really quickly..

Another problem is that if a magicker dies, he's often going to come back as another magicker, except this time he'll know exactly what spells to go for and which not to waste time on.. So just as more people are getting karma, more people are learning how to play their magickers and what makes them strong and what to avoid..

[jhunter]

The problem is that by making progression harder you make it harder to just survive. As a gemmer, you aren't useful to anyone to support yourself until a certain point. As a rogue magicker, you are unable to keep from being killed by the first npc, pc, weather, or whatever else until you reach a certain point.

That is only true if you are a clueless new guy on his first magicker or so.. The problem is that by making it easier for the few people that are playing a magicker for the first time, it also makes it a hell lot easier for the twenty other characters that are on their 10+ magickers and know exactly where to go, where to find fruits popping out of nowhere every 20 minutes or so, a source of infinite water, where to hide, etc.. It also makes it a lot easier for those who knows exactly what to branch and what spells to focus on to get powerful really quickly..

Another problem is that if you a magicker dies, he's often going to come back as another magicker, except this time he'll know exactly what spells to go for and which not to waste time on.. So just as more people are getting karma, more people are learning how to play their magickers and what makes them strong and what to avoid..

False, if you are playing realistically and are not going to the same damned places with every pc and actually making them a different pc this is totally not true. You don't have to be a newbie to magickers for them to be difficult. You just have to stop rewriting the same pc with a few changes. Make an actual character.