Tuluk

[spawnloser]

Okay, my current character is not in Tuluk, but my previous was involved in lots of stuff going on there.  I have also chatted with people that are involved in Tuluk stuff and stuff outside Tuluk, with the understanding that my current character is truly NOT involved in this stuff, so they felt I was safe to talk to about their issues...

This was just a bit of background to why I am posting what I'm posting.

The idea of Tuluk is awesome.  The thought is great.  I love it.

I am not liking its impact on how people play and how things seem to work in Tuluk.

Let me present a few things, just for consideration, before I continue:
:arrow: The Chosen are not allowed to hire many people at all.
:arrow: Partisanship is very loosely defined, mostly defined by the Partisan an Patron.
:arrow: There are few examples of how partisanship should work.

With these things in mind, it seems that many people play in Tuluk so that they can be an independant...or if they'd rather play in a clan, they don't play in Tuluk, because noone there can hire them.  There is the possibility of a Patron/Partisan relationship involving pay, but from how some portion of the playerbase, this isn't the norm.  The norm is politcal backing on the part of the Patron for the Partisan, while the Partisan gives favors, material or otherwise, to the Patron.  At this point, many may as well consider themselves clanned, as people tend to figure out who someone's Patron is, and then to get at the Patron, the Partisan is attacked/killed.  Where is the protection?  The Patron has little apparent power to protect the Partisan, but only to avenge...if an assassin can be found.

Again, I'd like to state that I love the concept, but don't think the implementation is working well.  What do people think we can do to change how this is working for Tuluk so that it is bettered for the playerbase?

[Rothairh]

I'll try and give my take on the current situation in Tuluk best I can, with regards to your points.

"The Chosen are not allowed to hire many people at all."

Chosen are allowed to hire an amount of people into their direct employment as relative to their status in the house as a Chosen.  I think this is reasonable.  Each house has dozens and dozens and dozens of Chosen.  Having less clout and experience, baby Chosen (which all PCs start as) shouldn't be able to hire as many people as more experienced and influential Chosen.  This can change though, if you do a good job.

A Chosen can have as many partisans as he can afford.  Based on performance and influence, a Chosen gets a particular stipend every OOC week or so, and they have to pay out to their partisans from that.  There's also this great phenomenon where Chosen can engage in business deals that get them extra coins, in the thousands.  A small portion of this goes back to the house, but the rest they can use at their discretion, which means more money for partisans (assuming the Chosen doesn't waste her four thousand coins on a bank account dubbed "shoes").

There is another thing at work here, and it's an attempt to break away from the aide/guard formula that most organizations seem to be built around.  There is very little in the way of beefy military outfits belonging to the Chosen houses, with some specific exceptions.  Therefore it makes little sense to hire people on to bolster a military unit that doesn't actually exist.  With this, you have to understand that the Chosen houses aren't really companies that actively employ hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of life-sworn commoners.  Each house has a particular area(s) of expertise that they cultivate, and they employ commoners either by direct employment or contract/partisanship as they see fit.

Also, if one house hired all the cool PCs, there wouldn't be enough to go around, considering our player base is small at the moment.

Partisanship is very loosely defined, mostly defined by the Partisan an Patron.

That is the point of partisanship.  It is a socio-political agreement, based on traditional roots, that tends to follow loose guidelines, but each agreement is inherently different from all others.  If patronage became defined in stone across the board, it would likely become just another form of direct employment, thus defeating its purpose.

There are few examples of how partisanship should work.

That's simply not the case.  There are plenty of active and proposed examples of how patronage can and does work.  Marko made a great couple of posts about this some time ago, wherein he outlined a whopping number of examples.  Aside from that, you really just have to play in Tuluk and use your imagination.  I personally enjoy the fact that patronage is fairly amorphous, because it allows a wide-range of differing sorts of agreements between Chosen and commoners to coalesce.

...it seems that many people play in Tuluk so that they can be an independant...

This may be the case, but you're not seeing the larger picture.  By creating individual independence, which I partially agree is the case, it creates broader inter-dependence among everyone.  Since each house is no longer a contained unit of aides/guards/workers, it allows individuals to become more pronounced and really play out a defined role in the society.  It causes the Chosen houses to come together and collaborate on projects, instead of staying separate from one another with their conclave of employees.  An important component of patronage is that while you are a partisan, you aren't barred from working for other Chosen, unless this is part of your agreement with your patron.  Of course, being cut off from other sources of income means the patron would have to shell out a LOT more coin to keep his partisan exclusive, but if that's what he wants, let him deal with it.

The norm is politcal (sic) backing on the part of the Patron for the Partisan, while the Partisan gives favors, material or otherwise, to the Patron. At this point, many may as well consider themselves clanned, as people tend to figure out who someone's Patron is, and then to get at the Patron, the Partisan is attacked/killed. Where is the protection?

I admit, patronage is not an easy thing to understand when most leader-follower PC relationships involve getting that clan tag in your score, which also means access to a special clan-area reserved for that clan only.  People have to wrap their minds around the fact that this is not necessarily what patronage is about, though it can be if those are the tenets of the particular agreement.

The fact that people's partisans are continually being attacked and killed is an unfortunate phenomenon, though it certainly falls in line with the harshness that Armageddon is supposed to exhibit.  On one level, it's true that oftentimes players in positions of power do not respect the patronage agreements that a rival may have entered into -- for example, a templar detaining a commoner while his Chosen patron is in the templar's mind screaming that this commoner has the protection of Chosen.  In a situation like that, the patronage agreement should be respected and acted upon accordingly -- which might mean including the Chosen in the interrogation, or releasing the commoner and focusing the investigation on the Chosen himself.  You get my point though, I hope.  Players have to step up and give a little bit of respect to the patronage system if it's going to work at all.

On another level, we have to contend with certain OOC constraints.  For example, there isn't a wealth of skilled assassins and spies to go around so that all Houses are in constant apprehension of having their aides and partisans murdered.  If one Chosen happens to take a buff assassin type into his employment, all the other Chosen are pretty much fucked because that assassin can just off anyone without retribution (assuming he doesn't run afoul of the templars).

The neat thing though, is that this constant stream of assassinations will eventually stop because of the interdependence between houses that I noted before.  The emphasis becomes less on "who do I have to kill to get my way" and more on "who can I work with to get my way".  That is most definitely happening in Tuluk right now.

[Cuusardo]

I agree that the "new" Tuluk is great in theory, but in practice it just isn't working out so well.

I think more resources should be given back to the nobility.  Give them the power to hire more people.  (Yes, I know you can hire more people by getting more status, but it is actually hard to get more status.)  Partisans are great, but actual employees get room and board PLUS steady pay.  I think this would bring back more players to Tuluk, and make things more fun and realistic for the players.

Also, more internal plots would bring in players.  It used to be that there were lots of plots that started within a House that dragged other PCs in on the action.  There just doesn't seem to be much action at all in Tuluk since the Copper War HRPT.  (Not that that caused much action IN the city, mind you.)  If the nobility had more resources to start their own plots, plus sparks given from the IMMs through NPCs, more fun stuff would happen.

I have a lot more to say on this subject, but at the moment I don't have the time.

[Gimfalisette]

I am not liking its impact on how people play and how things seem to work in Tuluk...With these things in mind, it seems that many people play in Tuluk so that they can be an independant...or if they'd rather play in a clan, they don't play in Tuluk, because noone there can hire them.  There is the possibility of a Patron/Partisan relationship involving pay, but from how some portion of the playerbase, this isn't the norm.  The norm is politcal backing on the part of the Patron for the Partisan, while the Partisan gives favors, material or otherwise, to the Patron.  At this point, many may as well consider themselves clanned, as people tend to figure out who someone's Patron is, and then to get at the Patron, the Partisan is attacked/killed.  Where is the protection?  The Patron has little apparent power to protect the Partisan, but only to avenge...if an assassin can be found.

Again, I'd like to state that I love the concept, but don't think the implementation is working well.  What do people think we can do to change how this is working for Tuluk so that it is bettered for the playerbase?

I don't think I know exactly what you're saying the problem is: People not using partisanship enough in Tuluk? Partisanship not working for partisans? Or something else?

From what I have seen, partisanship -works- fine as an avenue to involve characters in political play, but currently there are not enough characters in Tuluk to make it come vibrantly alive. Mostly, I believe, that's a problem with the current decline in player numbers post-announcement of 2.ARM. However, there are some additional contributing factors to making partisanship really "work" in Tuluk, IMO:

-- Too many players start characters in Tuluk who are not Gol-born citizens, or who are citizens but "undesirable" in some way (elves, half-elves), or they start their characters in Luirs and then come to use Tuluk as their home base. Such characters are ineligible or less useful for certain aspects of political play in Tuluk.
-- Most players who play in Tuluk seem to have absolutely no clue what partisanship is, or how it can be used. I have seen this not just among common characters, but in other castes as well.
-- Since so few players "get" partisanship, their characters don't seek it out. Which makes the system wonky, because then the Chosen are going around like Kadian recruiters trying to "hire" partisans, which is really not appropriate.
-- Characters who -are- looking for a connection almost always will choose the security of employment over the risky independence of partisanship.
-- Potential partisans almost never seem to be looking out for the match that is actually right for them, especially in terms of character goals and abilities, and what the Chosen House and potential patron themselves can provide. Each of the Houses is really quite different from the others, as each of the noble characters will be. Partisans should choose accordingly.
-- Potential partisans don't shop around for patrons, and once they get a patron, they are unquestioningly loyal. (Even when it might be in their best interest not to be.)

That said, I have observed all of the following GOOD things happening in Tuluk:
-- Partisans attacked/killed just because they did something to piss off another commoner character, without regard to patronage.
-- Partisans protected by political influence from harm and death.
-- Partisans used as political tools/weapons.
-- Partisans targeted due to their patron.
-- Partisans benefitting in very tangible material ways from partisanship.
-- Patrons benefitting from the efforts of their partisans.
-- Patrons suffering from the actions of their partisans.
-- Partisans suffering from the actions of their patrons.

Yes, the patron/partisan relationship is fluid and malleable, and that's a good thing. I wouldn't want to see it set into some kind of codified thing; that's what employment is for. It should be entirely up to agreement between the two parties.

But overall, right now, it purely comes down to numbers. There are not enough competent, eligible-for-partisanship, Common caste characters in Tuluk.

[Rhyden]

What do people think we can do to change how this is working for Tuluk so that it is bettered for the playerbase?

The main problem is lack of players.

The partisan/patron relationships work well for political plots and stirring up conflict in Tuluk. Some players get it, some don't but it's still present in Tuluk and works well.

I don't think the problem is really that the Noble system of patronship isn't working in Tuluk, it's that with the current lack of players, Tuluk is missing several elements that make the Noble system work so well.

As Cuusardo said, before the Copper Wars HRPT, Tuluk had more inner-house plots going around. That isn't happening now because a) the lack of players and b) with so many Noble PCs, the amount of employees they'll hire is being spread out and it's now difficult to have enough players (if not even more than two) in order to make some conflict.

Also, there is a large decline in numbers with the merchant houses in Tuluk and the T'zai Byn. Tuluk used to be packed with Kadian and Salarri hunters, guards, merchants and crafters but it doesn't seem to be so any more. The T'zai Byn is still currently active and there was a great attempt to reinstore the Tuluki branch of the T'zai Byn several months ago. Unfortunately, since as many things in Zalanthas fail as they succeed, that didn't work out very well. Also, the post Arm Reborn player drop didn't help either.

The current system in Tuluk is awesome. We just need the players to make it amazing.

[Malken]

Last time I played in Tuluk, it seemed like there was a lot more Templars and Nobles PCs than simple commoner ones.

[Jherlen]

I could say a lot about the new Tuluki system and my experiences with it, but I won't. Suffice it to say I have not played a Tuluki "insider" under the new arrangement, nor have I played anybody's partisan, so I'll let you folks who play in the sandbox talk about whether the walls are circular or square.

I mainly just wanted to bring up that whetever else I think about having umpteen million different noble Houses and nobles running around competing to hire/partisanize people, it IS an improvement over the setup that existed before, where the only available noble houses were Winrothol and Tenneshi. I think the politics is deeper and more complicated versus the old bipolar system of two Houses squabbling with each other over silly petty things.

So in that sense it's an improvement. For myself, I'm not sure it's a big enough improvement to really get me to the excitement level of "Wow this is new and great and the awesomest thing ever!", but again, from my outsider perspective I don't really have the experience to talk. The change seems to affect mostly the Chosen and their employees only.

[Morfeus]

IMHO, the MUD itself has enough players to support this, but players play in different parts of the world currently. I think a big problem is that there is very few people who actually want to be partisans. Lot of people wishes to be "absolutely" indepedant. Some people wish to be clanned. If I am deciding about my next character, I will probably not choose Tuluk - Why? I prefer playing clanned characters. And getting into a clan looks very complicated in Tuluk right now, while in other places it is easier.

I seriously don't think that lack of players is the reason for this. Actually, I don't even think there is that terrible lack of players in North. What I miss much more is some "action". What I miss is some balance between "conflict" and "need". It looks to me that before it was much more obvious that Houses were somewhat cooperating. This Tenneshi Chosen could hate that Winrothol Chosen, but he also needed to cooperate with him in business (at least for the time before he got him assassinated) - and if he failed, it had some effect.
EDITed to add: I am not trying to say there are not plots going on in Tuluk. I am just trying to point out what kind of plots I miss currently.

All together, I think the change is awesome - but it came in problematic time, because we don't have enough time to make the system "perfect".

[Nao]

I like the new Tuluk. As much as everyone is gonna yell at me for it, Tuluk needed less frilly aides employed by nobles and more partisan-like people that just got a little less coin.

And whoever says there hasn't been anything going on in Tuluk since the copper war seems to have missed a lot of things. After the copper war was the first time I ever got involved into anything much there.

[Gimfalisette]

Just to put some numbers to the contention that there are not enough players in Tuluk currently, which has been put forth by me and a couple of other players:

Looking over my notes, I come up with approximately 20-25 confirmed mainstream Tuluk characters currently in regular play in the city, both peak and off-peak. (Mainstream meaning characters who are Gol-born, Tuluki citizens, not elves/known half-elves, and not magickers.) About a third of those characters are in recognized leadership positions. I know of another handful (5-ish) of important mainstream characters who are not being played right now because their players aren't into playing since the 2.ARM announcement. There are a number of organizations which should have a consistent PC presence in Tuluk which have none at all, including all the major merchant houses and the Byn. Kadius appears to be working on a comeback attempt, which is great; but Tuluk has had 4 to 6 OOC months now of half-hearted or sporadic presence from all of these organizations.

There is plenty to do in Tuluk, there is plenty going on, there is a LARGE number of plots happening, or waiting to happen...but there just aren't enough characters to plug into plot spots. It's been almost impossible, for a long time, to buy anything in Tuluk that's not offered regularly in the shops. The decline of the player count in Tuluk becomes really painfully clear if you go into that one shop in Freil's where ALL the hunters used to sell their stuff...there is (comparatively) nothing being sold to that shop anymore.

By my estimate, Tuluk right now is claiming only 10 to 15% of the active playerbase of 240ish per week. So yeah, under these conditions, it ain't all that workable.

[Maybe42or54]

I am for the new change. Instead of "them killing you where you stand(like in allanak), they take you back to a cell and kill you," they actually do more now, for some reason. Awesome. Indy burglars/pickpockets unite.

[Fathi]

Last time I played in Tuluk, it seemed like there was a lot more Templars and Nobles PCs than simple commoner ones.

This.

The last few times I've been to Tuluk, it looked like this: everywhere you turned down the street you were running into a noble or a templar, but the only commoners around were the ones in my group and a few Kuraci in the Tooth.

Peeking into the Sanctuary, I regularly noticed that it had at any given time around 2 templars, 2 nobles, and their NPC entourage, but the only non-Templar-non-Chosen that I've seen in there in several visits were merchant house family members.

[jstorrie]

Agreed. I see eight or nine noble/templar PCs regularly, but less than five commoners. It gets exceptionally dull.

[Ourla]

There is plenty to do in Tuluk, there is plenty going on, there is a LARGE number of plots happening, or waiting to happen...but there just aren't enough characters to plug into plot spots.

I think this bears repeating.  There are so many awesome options in Tuluk, especially with so many active mover-and-shaker types (i.e. templars and nobles).  You can play an aide who sells information to the other side.  A dwarf with the focus of fortifying the city to protect his own family.  A badass Kadian archer who can take out five duskhorn with a single arrow.  Almost.  A spice-sharpened assassin who earns the highest prices for the highest heads.  A Tuluki Legionnaire soldier who gets to kick magicker butt.  A city elf who competes with her tribe to see who can pick the most pockets.  A sought-after Bard of the Poet Circle whose repartee brings them to their knees.  The possibilities are endless.

Personally, I like how loosely defined the patron/partisan system is.  At the very least, it represents a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" attitude: both parties will benefit.  The benefits to a commoner of having a patron are extremely wide.  If you get into trouble with the law or with another noble, you have some muscle backing you up.  Often, nobles might have some helpful lessons they can teach you that will help your character move forward in the gameworld.  Sometimes they give you coins. Also, partisanship allows a much greater degree of freedom to your character than clanned life or employment.  You can go hunting whenever you want.  You can get sh*tfaced drunk to your heart's content, as long as you don't puke on your patron (although....haha).  You can sell the hides and whatnot you bring in and keep the money.  All you've gotta do is keep your ears open for your patron, have fun on the adventures they'll send you to, and don't get killed.  Easy!

As has already been mentioned, if you want to play with the sly dogs in Tuluk, it's best to start as a citizen of the city itself, and humans get the best digs.  Unfortunately.

Code Select Expand

The skinny, dreadlocked girl returns to the crowd, all of whom chant in unison, "Point to Tuluk!  Point to Tuluk!"

[spawnloser]

I just now have realized that I forgot to mention one thing, I had meant to mention that this seems to be a popular perception, the things I'd brought up.  I've played in Tuluk in the patronage system and it worked well for me, and I get it.  People aren't coming to seek it because it seems to have all these problems.

I mean, a perception that a full third of the playerbase in Tuluk being Chosen/Noble?  I bet that's a bit of an exaggeration, but if you add in GMH family, I wouldn't doubt others agreeing that it is a reasonable estimate.

What can we do to help people understand how to get it to work?  I'm not entirely sure what else to add to the documentation we have, though I do think it is a bit sparse, on Patronage.  Still, I think providing players with help 'getting it' would increase the people trying it out, bringing more life and action to Tuluk.

[Gimfalisette]

I mean, a perception that a full third of the playerbase in Tuluk being Chosen/Noble?  I bet that's a bit of an exaggeration, but if you add in GMH family, I wouldn't doubt others agreeing that it is a reasonable estimate.

It's not a perception, spawnloser. It's a statistic. I myself keep extensive notes on which characters belong to which areas I play in, and whether or not those characters are active. So my estimates are based on actual survey of the current PC populace. And adding in all ONE of the GMH family members playing regularly in Tuluk right now? You've already said you're not playing in Tuluk at the moment...

[Morfeus]

I mean, a perception that a full third of the playerbase in Tuluk being Chosen/Noble?  I bet that's a bit of an exaggeration, but if you add in GMH family, I wouldn't doubt others agreeing that it is a reasonable estimate.

It's not a perception, spawnloser. It's a statistic. ...

I am playing in Tuluk currently. It's a perception. There is more than ten or twelve commoner-PCs in Tuluk. Perhaps you didn't see them, but it still doesn't make your statistic valid.

[Rothairh]

spawnloser, I'm not sure where you're getting all these ideas from.  You stated that your current character is not in Tuluk, and that you're talking to at least one person who is.  There hasn't been any merchant house presence in Tuluk at all since at least October 2006 until maybe about a week ago, when one of them showed up in force.

That aside, because I don't think it's a valid complaint at all, what are the real issues?  Not enough people in Tuluk, and not enough examples of what patronage is?  Blaming this on too many nobles is just ridiculous.  The current group of nobles is doing a fantastic job at creating plots and opportunities for the player base.  It's common knowledge now that Tuluk was split up into districts which are directly governed by the Chosen Houses.  This plot line was directly and exclusively conceived and advanced by the players, and has had a sweeping effect on Tuluki affairs in general.  So to suggest that there are no plots and no opportunities and no intrigue, and that it's the Nobles' fault, is completely wrong.

[a strange shadow]

The thing about Tuluk is that a large portion of the commoner playerbase seems to be on perma-hide/sneak.

[Morfeus]

There hasn't been any merchant house presence in Tuluk at all since at least October 2006 until maybe about a week ago, when one of them showed up in force.

Umm... no house presence? However I know there was not a merchant working in Tuluk full-time, I saw enough of "presence" at least of one of merchant Houses and in last month or two both of currently opened one.

[Gimfalisette]

Umm... no house presence? However I know there was not a merchant working in Tuluk full-time, I saw enough of "presence" at least of one of merchant Houses and in last month or two both of currently opened one.

In a thread about politics, I'm fairly sure that what is meant by "presence" is "availability for roleplay and participation in plots." Not "visits the city occasionally to pick up and drop off stuff." When there are no GMH family members who play regularly stationed in the city full-time, then those characters / organizations are effectively not available for roleplay and plots; they are not available to employ locals who are also available for roleplay and plots; heck, it's hard to even order the simplest items when the people you'd need to get them from are only in the city every two OOC weeks.

I'm not sure why we're even quibbling about this. Anyone who plays in Tuluk regularly at peak time knows that the dropoff in characters has been huge. Like I said before, just go to the shop where the hunters used to always sell their stuff...it's empty in comparison to how it was this past fall.

Back to the point about the patronage system, IF there were commoner characters interested in employment or patronage around the city, I am absolutely certain that any templar or noble now in play could adequately explain patronage and get the commoner situated correctly. There's no lack of expertise in game when it comes to patronage.

[Morfeus]

Umm... no house presence? However I know there was not a merchant working in Tuluk full-time, I saw enough of "presence" at least of one of merchant Houses and in last month or two both of currently opened one.

In a thread about politics, I'm fairly sure that what is meant by "presence" is "availability for roleplay and participation in plots."

That is what I meant.

Anyone who plays in Tuluk regularly at peak time knows that the dropoff in characters has been huge.

Hmm, do you mean there is a huge dropoff at peaks while there is not at off peaks? I did not consider that possibility. I see a dropoff, but I don't see anything extraordinaly. In some times Tuluk is full to top, in other times, it is nearly empty. Honestly, I remember even "emptier" times. Perhaps I am lucky not playing in later peaks then.

I'm not sure why we're even quibbling about this.

Perhaps because some people feel an urge to correct misinformations?

[Adhira]

There is too much information about what is happening (or what you perceive is happening) in game.

I can't see that this thread is serving any purpose other than to advance disagreement so it is being locked.