What happened to clans?

[Hymwen]

I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one who has noticed a steady decline in clan populations. Even when I started less than a year ago many clans were full and active, but lately there seems to be no interest. A handful of clans are still going strong, the ones that always will, such as the Byn and House Kurac. But what happened to Merchant Houses? What happened to guard companies? What happened to criminal groups, the Arm of the Dragon, House Oash, the Black Cavalry etc.? All these clans which I remember being alive and thriving when I was new are mostly empty, with maybe one or two members who are just keeping the clan from disappearing completely.

I've played a couple of leadership PCs who were responsible for hiring people into clans, one in a Noble House's guard company and one in a Merchant House. The problem I've had is a complete lack of interest. I was approached once every 2 weeks at most with someone who wants to join, and chances are you'll lose that person again pretty soon because they're hired into an empty clan. Tavern-board posts seem to be of little to no help, and the people who are independent usually are because they want to be.

It really, really saddens me to see this. Have the real clans (this is not a noble and his aide) become unappealing for some reason? Why won't -you- play in a clan? Maybe if we all list our reasons for not liking clans, something could be changed so that an active clan is not something unusual. And no, don't call this a fad, it has been this way for like six months or more.

[spawnloser]

From what I understand, nobles are only being allowed to hire limited amounts of people...and since they have to pay their people from the money they are given (which ain't much), they have an incentive to keep hires to a minimum.  I think it's a pity.

Also, just a side note...the Black Cavalry isn't a clan, but a unit within a clan.

[Onimantu]

I refer you to the following:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=23795

and

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=23794

[Xygax]

Of the 58 players online right now, 5 are not in clans.  I don't think there is a problem, unless it be one of perception.

-- X

[bloodfromstone]

Personally, I think a large part of the cause is iso clans. We have desert elves, we have human nomads, we have halflings, we have rogue magickers... We have a number of clans that, for all intents and purposes, could be played on a completely different port than the City-States, and no one would know the difference. I, personally, have been of the opinion for some time that we do not have the playerbase to support iso clans at the moment. I think they're a neat idea, to think of a group of isolated players somewhere in the world, disconnected from everyone else, living out their days... But it just doesn't work right now, as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather see clans not struggling to get more than a handful of players. I'd rather see City-States not feel like ghost towns half the time...
I'm not saying that isos are the full cause, but they're definitely contributing in my mind.

As far as why I don't play in clans... Well, I do, some. Here's my basic pros and cons break down.

Clan Life
Pros
- Steady interaction (if the clan is active)
- Free and mostly safe training
- Money!
- More respect from the high ups (nobles, templars, merchants)

Cons
- Devoid of interaction (if clan is not active)
- Less excitement
- Significantly less freedom
- Insufficent respect from most (I find that a lot of 'rinthis and independants are more than willing to challenge, say, a Tor Scorpion's honor)
- Very often, your duties amount to nothing. I want to come back to this.

Indie Life
Pros
- Freedom! Jog from Allanak to Tuluk and back, if you want.
- Easier to find interaction. As an indie, you aren't upholding any one else's  honor, so you can have a drink with whatever freak you want.
- Money! You can make a shitload, if you feel like it.
- Badassitude. From my experience, smart indies can become badass much faster than rigid sparring clannies.
- Excitement. Bored? Time to hunt some gith, because you're your own (wo)man.

Cons
- More lethal lifestyle. A long lived indie is a rare thing.
- Have to worry about food/water
- No respect from high ups (a templar might just drag you to the arena because he feels like a show).
- No steady interaction, unless you form your own little click.

That is the basic run down as I see it. Now, let me go back to my final con on clannies. Very often, it seems like duties mean nothing. House guards in particular are supposed to train day in and day out, that they may serve the House's needs. Often, the House's needs are... well, training. Very often, I see posts on clan boards asking for things to do. In response, sometimes a group is gathered up to go on a patrol. Maybe they head up to Luir's. Maybe an Imm takes pity and gives them a small quest to complete. However, if the only reason you are doing something is to have something to do, you are not serving a House. Clans need active duties that have visible results to get people excited. Here are a few examples that I can think of.

- Tor: Some sort of small threat to Allanaki security. Gith scouts. Bandits killing 'Nakki miners. A group of independant northern terrorists... Who better than Allanak's most elite fighters to track down a few scattered scouting camps, ambush, and kill them?
- Borsail: An escaped mul is a dangerous thing, but it is even more so when he escaped with an important noble's servant. Tough jobs filter down to the Amber Wyverns, who will have to coordinate with the escaped slave to ensure the servant's safety until they can make a rescue and maybe even close a pinch on the mul.
- Salarr: Recent influxes of chitin have proven flimsy and fragile, impossible to work with, much less make armor out of. The last thing the merchant house should do is admit there is a problem and risk their customers going to other vendors. So the hunters will have to try to track down the source - a dwarven magicker with a focus to put Salarr out of business - and deal with it, while the merchants try to keep the important customers happy, maybe even selling flimsy armor to less important (independant) customers.

Of course, all of these things require Imm assistance. And, of course, they can't be happening all the time. But I think most clannies would like to see a few bigger plotlines occasionally to feel like their training is paying off and like they are an active and important part of the clan.

EDIT:ed to add that I am not trying to say anything negative about the current imms of clans or anything. I just think a large perception of clanlife is that you wear colors and report to people, but largely do nothing. It'd be neat to see very occasional plotlines to fill in the cracks.

[Hymwen]

Of the 58 players online right now, 5 are not in clans.  I don't think there is a problem, unless it be one of perception.

-- X

How many of these are nobles and their aide, templars, people sitting alone in one clan, or are tribe/iso clans? My point is that very few of the "public" clans are full, most clans have a leader and one or two employees and it's like that most of the time. These are clans like the Wyverns, the Tor Scorpions, the militias, House Salarr, House Kadius (although they just got a new batch of family PCs), clans that need a handful of players to do anything much, but rarely/never have more than 1-3 PCs.

I know that almost every clan I've been in has had this exact problem.

[Rhapsody of Zalanthas]

Just as an aside, the reason there may be alot of independants in the northlands is due to the partisan system that is underway...and even of the moment there aren't that many who aren't completely independant, or at least they don't last long enough to be much noticed.  :twisted:

As for the cons of clan life, it depends what role you are speaking of. Much of what applies to the cons are in regards to the martial clans / subclans. Aides have alot of freedom (in the city-state), and get involved in plenty of things to make it interesting. Kurac is just...Kurac, same goes with Byn. But personally, I'd much rather see more independants than House guards and elite members. It's not very realistic in mind when a tavern is full of scorpions or black cavalry members, and only one indepant off to the side, and it will also prevent other plots that could have been started in the city, but can't due to restrictions of duties, loyalties, and lack of potential characters.

[Xygax]

How many of these are nobles and their aide, templars, people sitting alone in one clan, or are tribe/iso clans?

While I won't offer a full breakdown, 11 of them (a huge chunk of the mud's population) are T'zai Byn.  While there are a few gypsies and halflings among the population the vast percentage of the rest are in publically visible clans (AoD, Sun Legions, etc.).  I'm sorry, but I simply couldn't disagree with you more strongly that clans are thriving right now, and the clans that are thriving are among the most representative of the sort of play I personally prefer to see (player-driven plotlines and low-magic, grit, and brutality).

-- X

[bloodfromstone]

That's good news, X. Personally, I was of the same opinion as Hymwen, but it's good to be proven wrong on some things. I'll keep my eyes out IG.

[Larrath]

It's sometimes very seasonal - I've played a leader in a clan where I had maybe 3 employees at the least, and around 12 at the most.
It depends a lot on the leaders doing recruitment themselves, and not just waiting to be approached by others.

[Cale_Knight]

11 Bynners? Holy crap.

[EvilRoeSlade]

- Salarr: Recent influxes of chitin have proven flimsy and fragile, impossible to work with, much less make armor out of. The last thing the merchant house should do is admit there is a problem and risk their customers going to other vendors. So the hunters will have to try to track down the source - a dwarven magicker with a focus to put Salarr out of business - and deal with it, while the merchants try to keep the important customers happy, maybe even selling flimsy armor to less important (independant) customers.

All Salarr needs is good players to join it.

[Clearsighted]

11 Bynners? Holy crap.

Some Bynners are purely nominal in the association.

[Vesperas]

I have to say I agree with bloodfromstone on this topic.  Very little is going to change my mind, save for either a slap in the face from a big imm or the sudden disappearance of indie's.

I think that desert elves are really fun to play, now that I've tried them out, and even will go as far as saying that they are really complimentary for certain styles of play or playing times.

But most of the desert-elf tribes are not really all that good for the game on the whole -- sure, they provide diversity of play for those who like to play d-elfs, but other than that, they just spread us out more.  If I were going to make a suggestion about the tribes, it would be to close all of them except maybe the Sun Runners or another tribe that would have close contact with other people on a regular basis.

I am still in the dark as to why halflings were ever re-opened.  Some future plot?  Curtailing to the begging of older players who remembered them from a long while back?  Either way, I have so far have yet to actually meet a PC halfling, and honestly doubt that I ever will if I were to play in the area.  I'm not trying to bitch about the decision, I just have yet to see the glorious, shining wisdom in it.

I really wish that something could be done to make independance less desireable over clan-life.  I realize that a lot of people prefer to be independant because of play times (including myself, due to now having both school and work to worry with), but even if I had all the time in the world to play Arm, I'd most definitely be an inde because:

- I could go anywhere I wanted, when I wanted.  Including zipping my butt back and forth between Nak and Tuluk in about a 2 minutes time span, or, far less than a game day.

- I could make A LOT of money in a VERY short span of time, EVEN if I did my very best to play realistically and not use the code to my advantage.  As it stands right now, I could walk right out of a certain city, pick some stuff up, walk right back in, and have a net gain that is ATLEAST equal to the MONTHLY salary of a RANKED member of a clan.  All before mid-day.

- I had the option to practice my skills at my own leisure.

- Awesome leet apartments, weapons, food, whores, and Shiny Things that even slightly more upper-class commoners couldn't afford! Yay!

And I have found, personally, that interaction is 10 times higher for independants than clanners, because you can.. well, interact with anyone.


EDITED TO ADD, AS AFTERTHOUGHT:

The only time I was pleased about seeing some sort of favortism to clanned commoners was when a certain templar was played.  On being caught doing something rather dumb (but not against any real, hard-coded laws), my PC just got a finger-wiggle-warning because she was employed.  

I'd like to see more of this, and more rigid social structure that made a much bigger impact.  I.e, greater favor given to commoners employed under large organizations or Houses than to independants and foreiners.

I'd even go as far as saying that I'd like to see foreigners who were not obviously employed by someone to get picked on far more severely and far more often when they were outside their territory.  It just makes sense... you wouldn't have any real protection, AND.. well, it's fun to pick on those dirty foreign-spies.

[Gimfalisette]

How many of these are nobles and their aide, templars, people sitting alone in one clan, or are tribe/iso clans? My point is that very few of the "public" clans are full, most clans have a leader and one or two employees and it's like that most of the time. These are clans like the Wyverns, the Tor Scorpions, the militias, House Salarr, House Kadius (although they just got a new batch of family PCs), clans that need a handful of players to do anything much, but rarely/never have more than 1-3 PCs.

I know that almost every clan I've been in has had this exact problem.

I'm not sure there's anything wrong with there being many clans with 2 to 3 PCs in them. You can have a lot of fun with a small, tight gang. For bigger endeavors, there's always hiring the Byn. Of course, you need both the leader and the members bringing fun to the table. But really...there's like 101 different things to assign PCs to do other than "train up skills." (Clans where "train up skills" is all there is to do are pitifully boring. But NO clan forces that to be the only acceptable activity.)

[spawnloser]

You're missing part of the point, Vesperas...indies may have all that freedom to make all the money they want, but they can want things that are not realistic.

[Maybe42or54]

I'd love to see some soldiers in each city-state given the power to get noble house commoners off the hook for theft and other petty crimes. Or a house negotiates discounts on all salarri/kadian gear for their house.

For instance, supposedly, as a Member of the Armed Services, I make about 24-25 thousand dollars a year. Which isn't bad, but then I found this program that adds up all the benefits that I currently have that really can't be cashed in and It says that I make over 44 thousand dollars a year, which is a lot better.

Not to mention, more than half my pay currently is untaxable money.

There needs to be benefits for Clannies in my opinion.

[Vesperas]

There needs to be benefits for Clannies in my opinion.

Hehe, one sentence to say what my entire post couldn't.

[Xygax]

Yeah.  Clannies should get free food, clothes, water, and pay for low risk.  That'd be a good benefit, let's do that.

-- X

ps -- Oh, wait.  We should give them shelter and a place to put their things, too.  And built-in allies.

[jmordetsky]

Byn is rockin' right now.

[Delirium]

You can have a lot of fun with a small, tight gang.

Quoted for truth.

[Fathi]

How many of these are nobles and their aide, templars, people sitting alone in one clan, or are tribe/iso clans?

While I won't offer a full breakdown, 11 of them (a huge chunk of the mud's population) are T'zai Byn.  While there are a few gypsies and halflings among the population the vast percentage of the rest are in publically visible clans (AoD, Sun Legions, etc.).  I'm sorry, but I simply couldn't disagree with you more strongly that clans are thriving right now, and the clans that are thriving are among the most representative of the sort of play I personally prefer to see (player-driven plotlines and low-magic, grit, and brutality).

-- X

I am still playing my first character, and I have to say that having them join the Byn was the best decision I've made.

There's almost always someone on, there's all sorts of personalities to interact and clash with... great tension, great opportunities for character growth.

Jmordetsky is right. Byn = rockin'.

[Clearsighted]

Just can't help adding my own 2 sids on the Byn (or really, more like a waterskin's worth in hindsight)

Byn is rockin' right now.

I am still playing my first character, and I have to say that having them join the Byn was the best decision I've made.

And it also is far from boring, cushy and low risk like other clans are looked down upon for. The mortality rate on Byn runners and Sergeants alike is horrific. Yet not unreasonable. It just eliminates the chaff. The only thing harder, IMO, is playing a 'rinther or Southlands indie hunter. And even that is debatable. You can get by pretty easy as an indie if you learn a few tricks, but the Byn will send you into the meatgrinder repeatedly until you either become a devastating warrior or...die messily.

If you survive a year in the Byn (while playing actively, being on at least one contract or outing every few RL days) you are definitely doing something right.

If five people join at the same time, there is only a middling chance that even one will make it to Trooper status. And I feel that only the Trooper mentality really represent the Clan. You'll find that mentality in the Runners that survive to being ready for graduation too.

If you make it to Trooper, you've got it pretty good.  You're probably going to be pretty resilient (you can't just log out for two RL months) and not fall to most of the crap that will maul an indie hunter.

On the other hand...Staff LOVE to animate NPCs to have at Bynners. It balances out your heightened combat abilities when 3/4ths of the NPCs you fight are ten times more tactically adept than the vast majority of PCs. Perhaps it's because we sit around sparring all week eating free food. But you will find yourself in many exceptionally frustrating and lethal circumstances that only good leadership and instinctive teamwork will pull you out of alive. When the Byn has good, knowledgable sergeants and dedicated troopers, and promising Runners, it is really, in my opinion, the most beautiful experience in Armageddon.

There is a feeling of entitlement that comes from survival that is probably as close to a RL sense of veteran's camraderie that is possible to achieve in an online game. (Given the brutality and finality of death in Armageddon). There is certainly not a bowl of stew that I've ever eaten that I didn't feel was paid for in blood.

I really love it. The only thing that saddens me about the Byn is that when I inevitably die, I know I won't be able to play in it again for a long time, because the feelings would just be too strong and prone to being biased.

[Wish]

But you will find yourself in many exceptionally frustrating and lethal circumstances that only good leadership and instinctive teamwork will pull you out of alive.

And the flee command, and a good amount of luck.  If the dice are with you.

Tarantula units, for great justice.

Go Byn!

[Clearsighted]

But you will find yourself in many exceptionally frustrating and lethal circumstances that only good leadership and instinctive teamwork will pull you out of alive.

And the flee command, and a good amount of luck.  If the dice are with you.

Tarantula units, for great justice.

Go Byn!

Heh. Part of that good leadership and teamwork is not getting into 'fleeing' situations. I've been in very few. One of them was an unavoidable ambush, another was ye olde mekillot, and the last was an absolutely cruel ploy by certain cunning NPCs, but it just happened tonight so I can't extrapolate on how utterly gutwrenching it was.

[Pantoufle]

Yeah. Clannies should get free food, clothes, water, and pay for low risk. That'd be a good benefit, let's do that.

-- X

ps -- Oh, wait. We should give them shelter and a place to put their things, too. And built-in allies.

Putting your sarcasm aside for the moment, I think your list is a given.  The question is, is that enough?  If you play a desert crawling indie, you pretty much already have that.  Clothes?  I think that varies from clan to clan as far as what "clothes" you're even getting.  In many instances, it's simply an aba with the House sigil plastered upon it.  With a bit of scavenging, any indie can go wander the less risky regions of the game and eventually encounter gear of much greater value than a single clan aba.  Shelter?  A place to put your things?  Why are so many clanned people renting their own apartments if they have these options?  That says to me that barracks and footlockers are not highly prized commodities.

I don't think there are too many indies, personally.  Most characters whom I encounter are already in another clan and, if anything, they give me less reason to interact with them.  Indies can do things for you, someone in another clan rarely can (and even less often wants to).  Having said that, I still believe that clan roles need to be made more enviable than they currently are and I don't find a single feature from your list above as overly inviting.  An indie can have all of that and more without a great deal of fuss.  The biggest problem, as I see it, is the perception of what is "a lot of money".  I believe this is greatly over exaggerated at the moment.  3,000 coins is a drop in the bucket, even for a commoner, and can be spent in but a few short moments.  I think everyone's income in game, from the lowliest crafter to the highest ranking senior noble, could easily double and still maintain realism.  It gives players things to do, it helps stimulate plotlines when you can bribe someone or send them on little missions without worrying about being able to afford a single drink at the bar when you're finished.  

Don't make indie life harder, make clan life such that it TRULY is more advantageous than any indie's life.  Make it something to be TRULY jealous about.  Because footlockers and 300 coins a month is certainly not going to have me doing any cartwheels for my employer!

[Wish]

As a new player, someone relatively unfamiliar with the diku codebase, setting, and dangers presented, the desert presents a considerable threat.  Death is expected to be frequent and feared - this is, yes, realistic and cohesive with the game world.

But as a player grows more familiar with the code and dangers presented outside the walls of the city, they adapt to the desert.  They can't not.  It's survival instinct not to go putting yourself into deathly situations.  Those newbie indies die because they don't know a mekillot is going to eat them in one bite to the head, because they really want to see what's in that big black hole, and because they haven't yet learned to look where they are going.

(Look at me go on. I must be procrastinating something fierce.)

The longer you play, the easier survival within this unforgiving code, pure and blessed hack and slash at its beating heart, becomes, and long life will flow from that knowledge.  It's instinctive.  You can say, that for the sake of realism, the player can decide not to know basic elements of code, sacrifice their primal and knee-jerk knowledge of the desert, in order to...die more quickly?  Not "win"? Human nature doesn't want to sabotage itself, I'm afraid.  And, since it's a game, many people, who do know that code and have learned those knee-jerk responses that keep them alive, will be willing to take the "risk" of no free food, water, or affiliation if it means sitting on more stacks of money made in a month than Snickerdoodle Salarr will ever see in his 30 days of barsitting playtime.

Not that barsitting isn't a marvelous and entertaining occupation, one I like to indulge in myself quite frequently, save the times everyone in the place wants to kill me.

Everything your average clan member has, my independent characters have had (save access to a compound).  Yes, that includes social backing, allies, and connections, and if the food and water weren't exactly "free," it was pretty damn near.  Plus, large bathtubs full of money in which to bathe every evening.  Why would I join a clan, if what Xygax listed is all I want from it?

The simple point is, people generally -don't- join clans for 300 a month and footlockers, just like some people don't play the game to "win" or for "perks" or to make bathtubs full of money.  If they were joining for the money, they wouldn't be joining.  They sign up for interaction and being social and barstools and to work their way up the ladder and for clan stories and mudsex and clan plots and togetherness and scary bosses and just their own reasons for playing the game within a structured environment, I guess.  Those are your perks, if you like.  That's why clans are valuable, because they cater to the mindset of a specific playerbase.  

But if we want to doff our hats to the crowd that wants a balance of benefits between indies and clannies (even if the current "benefits" are not specifically what many clanned want/need in their play experience of ArmageddonMud) then yes, as Pantoufle says, it would be nice for them to have some Big Damn Perks, besides the basic elements listed by Xygax.

[Fathi]

Just can't help adding my own 2 sids on the Byn (or really, more like a waterskin's worth in hindsight)

Byn is rockin' right now.

I am still playing my first character, and I have to say that having them join the Byn was the best decision I've made.

And it also is far from boring, cushy and low risk like other clans are looked down upon for. The mortality rate on Byn runners and Sergeants alike is horrific. Yet not unreasonable. It just eliminates the chaff. The only thing harder, IMO, is playing a 'rinther or Southlands indie hunter. And even that is debatable. You can get by pretty easy as an indie if you learn a few tricks, but the Byn will send you into the meatgrinder repeatedly until you either become a devastating warrior or...die messily.

If you survive a year in the Byn (while playing actively, being on at least one contract or outing every few RL days) you are definitely doing something right.

If five people join at the same time, there is only a middling chance that even one will make it to Trooper status. And I feel that only the Trooper mentality really represent the Clan. You'll find that mentality in the Runners that survive to being ready for graduation too.

If you make it to Trooper, you've got it pretty good.  You're probably going to be pretty resilient (you can't just log out for two RL months) and not fall to most of the crap that will maul an indie hunter.

On the other hand...Staff LOVE to animate NPCs to have at Bynners. It balances out your heightened combat abilities when 3/4ths of the NPCs you fight are ten times more tactically adept than the vast majority of PCs. Perhaps it's because we sit around sparring all week eating free food. But you will find yourself in many exceptionally frustrating and lethal circumstances that only good leadership and instinctive teamwork will pull you out of alive. When the Byn has good, knowledgable sergeants and dedicated troopers, and promising Runners, it is really, in my opinion, the most beautiful experience in Armageddon.

There is a feeling of entitlement that comes from survival that is probably as close to a RL sense of veteran's camraderie that is possible to achieve in an online game. (Given the brutality and finality of death in Armageddon). There is certainly not a bowl of stew that I've ever eaten that I didn't feel was paid for in blood.

I really love it. The only thing that saddens me about the Byn is that when I inevitably die, I know I won't be able to play in it again for a long time, because the feelings would just be too strong and prone to being biased.

Well I can't mention what, but you know what sort of 'flee' situations I've gotten myself into... and I've somehow managed to survive. I watched a friend play the game a while and read a lot of the documentation before I played, but I owe my character's survival to my fellow Bynners.

Both IC and OOC, you guys have helped me so much with the game. I can't express my gratitude enough. And I know my character will eventually die and it makes me very sad, because I love interacting with you all.

But I think the Byn really personifies life on Zalanthas: harsh, unforgiving, fast-paced. The new blood replaces the old as those that can't hack it are remembered, but only faintly, because taking too much time to remember the past takes your focus away from staying alive.

The Byn offers so much room for character development... and I love dynamic characters. A Runner could start out as a 'Rinth rat trying to prove themselves worthy of rising above their situation... or as an innocent teenager looking for their first job away from home. And if they live through their training, they are changed.

I sound like a fangirl. Shutting up now.

[Djarjak]

Yeah. Clannies should get free food, clothes, water, and pay for low risk. That'd be a good benefit, let's do that.

-- X

ps -- Oh, wait. We should give them shelter and a place to put their things, too. And built-in allies.

Putting your sarcasm aside for the moment, I think your list is a given.  The question is, is that enough?  If you play a desert crawling indie, you pretty much already have that.

The difference is, in a clan, you only have to sit on your ever largening ass in a bar to get clothes, water, food, shelter, and even eq. As an indie, you have to work for it, know how to play the wilds (or other people) to get the 'sid, water, food, whatever.

And yes, I know some clans require you to emote once in a while, but it's hardly the same type of peril.

The tide of clans shifts. One week, the Byn is the most popular thing ever. The next week, it's SLK. The next week it's halflings. If we announced tomorrow that mantis were open to play again, then that would be the hot new thing.

The bottom line is, if you want to populate a clan that you miss seeing populated, be the change you seek. Join up. Start recruiting. Go be the badass. But don't lament about times past. Armageddon is a dynamic entity. It's part of what makes it more entertaining than a lot of other games with a static set. Think about it.

I doubt sincerely that there are any changes that need to be made, per se, to make clans more appealing or indies less so in order for the game to succeed.

[Pantoufle]

I doubt sincerely that there are any changes that need to be made, per se, to make clans more appealing or indies less so in order for the game to succeed.

Certainly not, I agree.  The game is already succeeding in spades.

But I still stand by my earlier statement.  That a lot of money is actually diddly squat.  That noblemen have brought casks of their own House wine into taverns rather than buy a goblet because they need to "save" their money. That once you overcome the learning curve, the effort required to "work" to make what a clannie is making (and then some) is little more than a walk in the park.

Over the course of time, guilds have been given more skills, greater allowances and added perks.  Clans have developed and their concepts expanded upon.  I see nothing wrong with suggesting that clan roles receive greater expenditures or perks, nothing wrong with expanding upon the privelages granted to them.  It's hardly like doing so would be far fetched.

[Wish]

It isn't the amount of money you have or are worth but the ease in which you make it that imbalances things.  Need another thousand for the rent on your four room place, Jinglepants Ranger?  No sweat. An hour or two playtime of killing, skinning, foraging, and chopping will get you what you need.  Laugh hard, it's a long way to the bank.

Need another thousand for that bribe, Fluffybeans Tenneshi?  Sorry, you have to wait another real life week or two for that stipend.  You can't twist the code to your immediate advantage, and have to wait for players and immortals - unpredictable creatures all.  Too bad about your plots and employees, they'll have to carry on without your money to drive them for a while.

Not to say one role is more rewarding than the other. Each bears its own obstacles - in the role of a supposedly rich person who really isn't, the frustration is of a decidedly monetary bent.

[Hymwen]

The long-lost point of my original post:

These are rhetorical questions.

How many active non-templar PCs are in the Allanaki militia? How often do you see them patrolling, taking bribes, preventing (or allowing) crimes?

How many non-noble/aide Borsail Wyvern PCs do you see? What do you ever see that clan doing? How about the Tor Scorpions? The Black Cavalry?

How many gemmed magickers working for House Oash have you seen or heard of doing anything lately?

House Salarr, anyone?

Yes, most clans go through periods of high activity, but from what I can tell that is the exception for most clans, when the exception should be periods of inactivity. Some clans like the Guild, noble Houses (not their guard companies) and Bardic Circles can do just fine with 1-3 PCs. But from what I've seen in the past 6 months or so, the clans that need 4-5 or more PCs to actually do what they're meant to do... well they practically never have that amount of active players. The playerbase is way too diluted in my opinion, with the exception of the clans I mentioned in my first post (but was, strangely, used as an argument against my point) like the Byn.

Maybe things look different from your point of view, and maybe you have a different opinion of how things should be. My opinion is that something needs to be done for those clans that need a good number of players but never seem to have them. This is not a bash at the players who lead these clans, I've had similar leadership positions and seen the utter lack of interest, despite daily efforts to get new blood into the clan, to the point where someone seeking to join is something to celebrate (until they store or quit after a while because they're still the only recruit). I'm not talking about giving the players nicer clothes, bigger lockers or better beds. I'm talking about more things to do and more non-coded benefits like, as someone else mentioned, a much clearer social distinction between indy and clanned people.

[Maybe42or54]

Clannies do have it good, however, in the eye of the code, they are still indies.
They get treated by the law the same way, they get treated by the shops as the same, Apartments cost the same for both, and other things.
My ideas to fix it:
Less penalties for the lesser crimes such as theft.
Harsher penalties for the harsher crimes, such as murder, trespassing, etc.
Soldiers can get clannies off the hook of lesser crimes, but to get merchant house employees, indies, T'zai Byn, you still need a templar.

What merchant wouldn't want a merchant house crafter from selling their cheap shit to them? That way, when the crafter gets better, they enjoy working with your shop and sell their higher end items to the shop.
So you could make shop owners only buy 3 things from indies and 6 or so things from clannies.

And who wouldn't want an apartment building full of the good-to-go noble commoner clannies? THey oughta chop some of the price off if they know you aren't going to be a fuck up like the 'rinther that lives right next to you.

[Rindan]

I think that Hymwen's complaint and solution are getting tangled.  The complaint is really that 'major' clans are small.  I think the solution put forward that clans need more perks will not fix this as the clanned player stats show.  The real issue is that Armageddon simply has a lot of clans at the moment.  We have two major areas of play, two or three minor areas of play, and a handful more isolated places to play.  As far as I know, all the places where you can play have people stuffed into them.  The player base is spread thin not only physically, but also in terms of clans.  I am pretty sure that right now Armageddon has more clans with active populations then it ever has.

There really is no solution to this other then consolidation – which comes with its own problems.  I am not sure how many people remember it, but after Tuluk was wiped out the big complaint was that Allanak was bursting at the seams and that there was nowhere else to play.  I think that there is some question as to how much consolidation actually improves the situation in the short term.  Consolidation doesn't do any good if you end up pissing off all the iso-tribe lovers and they stop playing.  As much as I would love to see Tuluk burned and all iso tribes shut down so that everyone has to play in Allanak with me, I think that it is an unrealistic thing to ask and would result in a pile of pissed off players.

If I were to suggest anything that might be effective, it would be to try harder to bring iso-clans closer to the cities, limit the number of iso-clans, and have them clash more with city state populations.  Four warring desert elf tribe off in the tablelands might as well not exist as far as the rest of the non-tablelands population is concerned.  Two large warring desert elf tribes battling it out on the plains east of Tuluk or in the sands west of Allanak is something for everyone to get excited about.  The same goes for haflings.  Haflings deep in the grey forest might as well not be there as far as the rest of the players are concerned.  Haflings camped just off to the side of the north road on the other hand are very noticeable.

[Hymwen]

What he said.

[rishenko]

The tide of clans shifts. One week, the Byn is the most popular thing ever. The next week, it's SLK. The next week it's halflings. If we announced tomorrow that mantis were open to play again, then that would be the hot new thing.

The bottom line is, if you want to populate a clan that you miss seeing populated, be the change you seek. Join up. Start recruiting. Go be the badass. But don't lament about times past. Armageddon is a dynamic entity. It's part of what makes it more entertaining than a lot of other games with a static set. Think about it.

Bingo.  At one point earlier this year when I held a leadership position I had approximately twelve subordinates under me, online at once up in Tuluk.  More than half the city's PC playing population was in said clan.  Now, without anybody dying, being kicked out or anything else, the very next week it dropped to only three of that clan on at any one given time.  Then it picked back up, then several died, then several joined, then several played, then several stopped because of real life...you get the point.  

A different clan I played in earlier this year had a small cadre of about six people that were online all the fucking time.  It was great, we had a ton of fun and people knew there was a presence in that clan.  ...  Then we all died.

Separately, it also depends on where you play.  If you are playing around low population points, you might only be crossing indies.  If you are going to bars and finding only one person there, it's possible that there are fifteen Byn back at the barracks having yet another violent orgy.  

Granted, the population is spread across a rather large number of clans, but I am still of the mind that the balance is always working itself out and has more to do with people's playtimes coinciding within a given clan and between clans and clan popularity than it does with actual game issues.